Okay, Billy Boy, here is your big chance. I am challenging you to debate any issue you have with me. I can already see that you are given to fits of emotional outbursts. Lets see if you can bring that under control and choose any issue you know to be opposed to my beliefs (or assume to be). You had better do your homework before you post any bullshit here. I certainly will. Or, you can simply wimp.....I mean decline to debate me.

What's it gonna be?

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004

Answers

Still a no show? You talk a mean game, but you cant seem to back it up. I have stated the goals of KOBE, and they are stated on our website. If you have a problem with them, then you need to address your concerns on this thread.

What I find amusing is how so many of our enemies threated to do this, or to do that, but NONE of the hundreds of threats has materialized. People threatened to report us to the FBI (which they did, but their shit was disregarded), then they have tried to hack our site (but the site is almost bulletproof), and they have tried to find out who we are (nobody has ever been able to identify any member of KOBE). All sorts of theories have been cooked up by Stephen DeVoy, but none of them are even close to the truth.

On the other hand, KOBE makes a single, well written statement of what will happen to this target or that target. Then what happens? EXACTLY what we say will happen. We always give at least a day warning. We have done it many many times. The Communists, Anarchists, Socialists and general liberalist morons hate us (as a group). Individually, we are intelligent, passionate Americans who genuinely care about the well-being of the United States. As a group, we are a force to be reckoned with. If you dont like it, then I invite you to state your objections.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

Just because someone doesnt answer you in 30min. means nothing... some people have a life, KOBE.

-- Dick Tator (inneedofliberty@yahoo.com), December 22, 2004.

Are you gonna turn on me too? I have a life too. I noticed the original post "Call of Arms against KOBE" just yesterday. Funny how Brasky can come here and talk shit, but doesnt come back to read his responses within 24 hours. Do you have issues too? You are welcome to join in (on whichever side you choose).

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

Kobe, it hasn't even been a day yet. Brasky will post eventually, give him a little time.

Moving on, you confused me with a few of your statements.

And it all boils down to this statement: Individually, we are intelligent, passionate Americans who genuinely care about the well-being of the United States.

If you care about the United States so much, then why do you stifle dissent, whether it takes the form of a socialist agenda or just something you plain don't agree with? Isn't our country about fighting tyranny? You're doing just the opposite! You're being a tyrant by bullying others into believing what you believe, and not voicing their own opinions if they appear "radical", else they be reported to a government agency. Next, I have no doubt that the MAJORITY of KOBE is comprised of quite intelligent people. I just think you use your intellegence in the wrong way.

As a group, we are a force to be reckoned with.

...But I thought you said you were "intelligent, passionate Americans." If you were, you wouldn't bully others into submission. If we don't like it, and voice it, chances are a KOBE will tear down our sites.

If you dont like it, then I invite you to state your objections.

This statement seems a bit hypocritical to me...

The Communists, Anarchists, Socialists and general liberalist morons hate us (as a group).

They're allowed to. And they're allowed to have their own opinions, they don't have to obey you and follow what you say.

This is what confuses me SBM... you take life as such a rat race, keeping our rebels confined... you supress opions that differ from yours, be it by internet hacking, bad publicity, or just by being close minded. This is where you lose me. You are obviously very smart, albiet a bit arrogant, but you don't use your intelligence in the proper way. You, per se, are on the dark side of the force. You confuse me greatly SBM...

-- U msut Feers Me (Dubyalovesblow00@hotmail.com), December 22, 2004.

Wow, a couple hours and still no reply? And at 4 in the afternoon, too! Man, he must have a **JOB** or something. What the hell are you doing that allows you to post three times in the middle of the day? I'm sixteen, and I don't have that kind of spare time on my hands. And I certainly don't devote the majority of my spare time to posting on this site. I have a **LIFE**. I play guitar in a punk rock band, I hang out with my girlfriend, I volunteer the occasional saturday at a homeless shelter in DC....my point is, GET A LIFE, DUDE. Jesus.

"What I find amusing is how so many of our enemies threated to do this, or to do that, but NONE of the hundreds of threats has materialized."

That's because it's safe to assume that anyone who tips their ahnd and warns you that they are going to fuck with you or your site beforehand is probably a complete numbnuts anyway, leading one to believe that they are probably too stupid to hack your site, piss-poor as it is.

" they have tried to find out who we are (nobody has ever been able to identify any member of KOBE)."

Ever consider the possibility that nobody gives a flying fuck?

"On the other hand, KOBE makes a single, well written statement of what will happen to this target or that target. Then what happens? EXACTLY what we say will happen. We always give at least a day warning."

Yeah, you guys did give us fair warning before you destroyed our site...oh wait, you didn't destroy our site...it was just an empty threat, because you guys have no balls. My bad.

"The Communists, Anarchists, Socialists and general liberalist morons hate us (as a group)."

The ones that know who you are...which make up a pretty small percentage...you guys aren't exactly the biggest thing on the internet.

This, on the other hand, is:

maddox.xmission.com/

Best page in the universe.

"Individually, we are intelligent, passionate Americans who genuinely care about the well-being of the United States."

I'm sure you are, I never questioned that. You just have a very different idea of what that well-being means...and in my opinion, it's wrong.

Us "liberalist morons" also care deeply about the well-being of our country, but I feel no need to defend my patriotism. Unlike you, I don't try to hide behind the flag to protect an emtpy, jingoistic view of the world.

"As a group, we are a force to be reckoned with. "

OOOh, scary. Dammit, I'm gonna need new pants...

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 22, 2004.

I appreciate your well-written response. I dont feel that we are trying to beat people into submission, or even to stifle dissent. Actually, KOBE is a dissident group in the true sense of the word as much as any dissident group. What we discovered in 2001, right after 9/11 is that the government was pathetically ill-equipped to handle the issue of the internet and dessimination of "radical" propaganda. The FBI could only act after crimes had been committed, and at that time there was just the "Office of Homeland Security" instead of the DHS. In other words, the rats were having a field day with their promotion of anti-government/anti-American agenda.

"If you care about the United States so much, then why do you stifle dissent, whether it takes the form of a socialist agenda or just something you plain don't agree with?"

Dissent is as American as Apple Pie. I dont mind it at all. However, America is not now, nor will it ever become a socialist nation, a communist nation, or ANYTHING other than the Capitalist Republic that is is today. I dont want it to change, and I will fight against those who would have it change into something other than that. It just so happens that we are representing those who you consider to be the "Bad Guys". Believe me, if this were a socialist country, and KOBE was promoting a capitalist agenda, you people would see us much the same way as we see you. Another upstart group trying to change the Staus Quo into something other than what is. There is only one AMERICA, and we dont want to change it. Eventually, the government will be monitoring the grassroots efforts to promote anarchy and communism as we do, and their countermeasures will be more than just shutting down the websites and contacting the authorities. They will want to arrent, catalogue and maintain files on dissidents.

I apologize for my arrogance, and I know that I can tend to be that way. But I stand by my convictions. I love my country just as she is.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

Im sorry, Anti-Bush, but part of you is just still too immature to understand what Tator and I are talking about. Unlike you, Dick Tator has an adult perspective on things, and he seems to be genuinely trying to be objective and ask pertinent questions. You come off to me as just a bitchy hothead who really has nothing to say. Its hard to even think of discussing complex socio-economic issues and politics with a 16 year old minor who wont be able to vote for at least 5 more years.

"Wow, a couple hours and still no reply? And at 4 in the afternoon, too! Man, he must have a **JOB** or something. What the hell are you doing that allows you to post three times in the middle of the day?"

Oh, I have a job allright. I probably pay more in taxes than many people MAKE in a year. I am a partner in my company, and people work under me. I can pretty much do whatever the fuck I want, anytime I want. It will be a long time before you have to take on any real responsibility (like paying taxes, raising children, and establishing your career). It would be best if you just sit this thread out.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

AHAHAHA. I had to respond you your other comments. I went to that page you are talking about, its a fucking joke. There's plenty for young adults who are still minors, with all of the typical "angry teenager" articles and such, but not for real movers and shakers. Just the same, our KOBE Bot is downloading the entire site for analysis. We may borrow some of the site elements for use at KOBE.

We arent trying to be the biggest or best site on the internet. The site is not KOBE. Its just our meeting place, and KOBE was around long before the site. You say that nobody gives a flying fuck who we are? Then try typing my name or any of these search terms in any search engine and see what people say. They think we are the CIA, the FBI, DARPA, The Mossad, The JDL, etc. We dont really give a shit. We do what we do and nobody has been able to stop us. I never stated that we would shut this site down. I threatened to do it, but I never said I would do it. On the other hand, we stated a whole 3 days beforehand that we would shut down http://anarch.netfirms/com because it was an "Anarchism for Children" site which we think is sick.

You are speaking and thinking from the perspective of a child. Im giving you the benefit of the doubt. You need to mature a LOT more before you can speak with authority on any adult matters. I bet youre still a virgin.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

Did anyone shortly after say we got attacked because of our lopsided support of Israel? No, Our networks just showed our grandstanding politicians telling us we got attacked because we are a freedom loving people. I knew why we got attacked the minute we got attacked. We have not been "fair" to the palestineans. Now I question if bin laden or any arab attack us that shitty day. There was no plane at the pentagon.Where is the plane wreck? How does a boeing fly at 2 foot? In New York a group of Massad bastards were celebrating big time while americans were jumping to their deaths. George Bush kept reading in an elementary school. The arabs celebrated but they did not hit us. We hit ourselves with the help of Israel. Our country used to stand for something like human rights and democracy. Today we stand for greed. You don't hear anything more about faggot marriage now do you? The press kept that in the news for 2 years. Most democrats believe that people have a right to be different so we do not attack the ass pirates. We view that as the same type of nonsense that the blacks went through in the south in the 60's. Our elections were more of a fraud than in the Ukraine. We won in Ohio and Washington but the press won't tell you that. We are the most hated people on earth thanks to the greed machine. We might get nuked for this and everybody on earth will say we had it coming just like hitler and japan had it coming. How many leaders in Israel were terrorist in the mid 40's? Menacham Begin blew up buildings killing women and children as other leaders did. I think the guy who got assasinated in 94 blew up women and children. He died because palestine was becoming close to a reality at that time.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@dumpisrael.com), December 22, 2004.

OMG. We are looking at the contents of that website, and look what we find:

http://maddox.xmission/crapart2_5.jpg

http://maddox.xmission/crapart3.jpg

http://maddox.xmission/card1_inside_fin1.gif

Did you do those pieces of sh...I mean art? Obviously, that site is not meant for adults. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK, KID! Im trying....really hard....to keep from putting you over my knee and pulling your little pants down to spank your ass a rosy red color.

-- KOBE SBM (webmaster@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

Hmmm. Not exactly the knee-jerk message I expected you to post. I will try to respond to it bit by bit.

Did anyone shortly after say we got attacked because of our lopsided support of Israel? No, Our networks just showed our grandstanding politicians telling us we got attacked because we are a freedom loving people. I knew why we got attacked the minute we got attacked. We have not been "fair" to the palestineans.

"Fair to the Palestinians"? There is NO Palestine, and there never has been a Palestine. From 1948 to 1967, no one called for the creation of a "Palestinian" state. No one even suggested that a separate "Palestinian" people exist in Yesha. The PLO never called for an independent "Palestine" state in Yesha when Egypt and Jordan controlled Yesha. Only when Israel liberated Yesha in the 1967 Six Day War did the PLO, Egypt, Jordan and the rest of the Muslim world suddenly "discover" that Yesha Arabs are "Palestinians" who must be given an independent PLO terrorist state. There was never a "Palestine" nation or state at any time in history

Now I question if bin laden or any arab attack us that shitty day. There was no plane at the pentagon. Where is the plane wreck? How does a boeing fly at 2 foot? In New York a group of Massad bastards were celebrating big time while americans were jumping to their deaths. George Bush kept reading in an elementary school. The arabs celebrated but they did not hit us. We hit ourselves with the help of Israel.

Typical conspiracy story, and I have read it many places around the net. I read this: http://www.911-strike.com/pentagon.htm and I agree that there are inconsistencies, but the fact remains that the Pentagon WAS hit.

Our country used to stand for something like human rights and democracy. Today we stand for greed. You don't hear anything more about faggot marriage now do you? The press kept that in the news for 2 years. Most democrats believe that people have a right to be different so we do not attack the ass pirates.

I am not a homophobe either. I do NOT believe that the institution of marriage should be extended to gays. There is already the Domestic Partnership legislation which effectively allows gay couples to enjoy all of the benefits of a married couple, but to equate a gay "marriage" with a normal marriage is preposterous. Is it greedy to want to make the most money one can make within a given set of tools (education, connections, etc)? Isnt that what the American Dream is all about? I dont recall readin 'We The People will evenly distribute all of the wealth and give our hard earned money to the poor'

We view that as the same type of nonsense that the blacks went through in the south in the 60's. Our elections were more of a fraud than in the Ukraine. We won in Ohio and Washington but the press won't tell you that. We are the most hated people on earth thanks to the greed machine. We might get nuked for this and everybody on earth will say we had it coming just like hitler and japan had it coming. How many leaders in Israel were terrorist in the mid 40's? Menacham Begin blew up buildings killing women and children as other leaders did. I think the guy who got assasinated in 94 blew up women and children. He died because palestine was becoming close to a reality at that time.

Nobody is going to nuke the United States. Before any nuke ever hit the target, the United States would have enough birds in the air to destroy ANY country on the planet who tried such a foolish act. You comment about the election is just plain denial. Bush won, and he won decisively. End of issue. Menacham Begin did not blow up any buildings, nor did he authorize any such acts. I thought you were going to do your research before posting. You must have forgotten

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

CLOSING HTML TAG

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

Kobe I am happy you love America, I love it too but I am fed up with our government being Israel's monkey. We need more than the internet. We need our oil and airwaves back.

You know I fail to grasp the thought behind the isolationist attitude of you libs. Stick our head in the sand while islamists and socialists alike press forward with their agendas? Turn tail and run and leave one of the few democracies in the middle east (Israel) to fend for itself while it's surrounded by monarchs and dictators who seek to destroy it for no good reason? For those of you, like Brasky, who think that leaving Israel high and dry will fix America's ills, you are sorely mistaken. But I would be highly interested in hearing your solution. I'm sure it would be quite entertaining.

-- KOBE Caucasoid (kobecaucasoid@kobehq.com), December 22, 2004.

In the best case scenario the arabs attacked us. I can understand their anger. I cannot understand mossad celebrating the hit in NYC. Where are all the sleeper cells? If I smoke a joint the feds would probably knock my door down. Israel is evil. Israel is the reason we got attacked by the arabs if they did it. I still think Israel did it with our government. It was such a nice story wasn't it. Just like Oswald was a good fit when in fact he was working for the USA and the CIA. If Oswald fired a shot it was the shot that struck the winshield. Israel was behind that too because Kennedy wanted US inspecters checking out their nuke plant. Israel is NOT our friend. We don't need that democracy since alot of commie regimes went down in the ashheap of history. Iraq was in better hands of a dictator like saddam. saddam did let inspectors in when he realized we meant business in 2002. Saddam heeled and we shot him anyway and now look at the mess we are in. It was not worth it to the average american. It was only worth it to halliburton and paranoid israelis. We are on the wrong side of this conflict and history will proove this statement correct. This is worse than Viet Nam. In Viet Nam we stopped the elections because the commies would have won. That is democracy? 58,000 dead in viet nam for nothing. 2-3 million slant eyes bit the dust too. 1,319 dead in Iraq, How many civilians?10,000, 20,000? It is not worth it and we should have seen this before we decided to occupy this shithole.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@dumpisrael.com), December 22, 2004.

"Dissent is as American as Apple Pie. I dont mind it at all. However, America is not now, nor will it ever become a socialist nation, a communist nation, or ANYTHING other than the Capitalist Republic that is is today. I dont want it to change, and I will fight against those who would have it change into something other than that. It just so happens that we are representing those who you consider to be the "Bad Guys". Believe me, if this were a socialist country, and KOBE was promoting a capitalist agenda, you people would see us much the same way as we see you. Another upstart group trying to change the Staus Quo into something other than what is. There is only one AMERICA, and we dont want to change it. Eventually, the government will be monitoring the grassroots efforts to promote anarchy and communism as we do, and their countermeasures will be more than just shutting down the websites and contacting the authorities. They will want to arrent, catalogue and maintain files on dissidents."

Translation: you can speak your mind as longas you agree with me. If not, expect a visit from the FBI.

KOBE, if people are working for nonviolent, democratic change, THEY ARE NOT YOUR ENEMIES. You have an extremely twisted view of democracy, where you have to forcefully silence any opposition to your viewpoints. Then you wrap yourself in the flag and pretend that you are really working for the greater good of the country, out of some sense of noble patriotic duty, when really you are motivated by petty self-interest. You can't stand being challenged. It drives you crazy when everyone doesn't fear or respect you, so you go from forum to forum attempting to show everyone how big your dick is by making empty threats about how you shut down some obscure website.

Then you try to show everyone how important you are by telling us all about your fancy house and your well-paying job. Big shit. I really feel sorry for you if you think that that is what life is all about. I'm sixteen and I know better.

I can't speak for everybody here, but I for one centainly don't fear you and I don't respect you. You seem like a very lonely, selfish, arrogant person who tries to fill his empty life with material things but ignores everything that's really important. You don't seem to care about anyone but yourself. You believe that your opinion is the only valid one; that you can't learn from anyone else because they are obviously wrong right from the get-go. You presume to believe that you are so important that your views speak for the United States of America as a whole (if that's true, no wonder the rest of the world hates us).

Get off your damn pedestal. You are not better than everyone else. In conclusion: stop being a douche.

"Im sorry, Anti-Bush, but part of you is just still too immature to understand what Tator and I are talking about. Unlike you, Dick Tator has an adult perspective on things, and he seems to be genuinely trying to be objective and ask pertinent questions. You come off to me as just a bitchy hothead who really has nothing to say. Its hard to even think of discussing complex socio-economic issues and politics with a 16 year old minor who wont be able to vote for at least 5 more years."

Wow, nice math skills there, numbnuts. Two years. But whatever. I'm sure your high-powered job (where everyone worships the ground you walk on and NOBODY thinks you're a pompous jackoff) doesn't require advanced math skills like those.

"Oh, I have a job allright. I probably pay more in taxes than many people MAKE in a year. I am a partner in my company, and people work under me. I can pretty much do whatever the fuck I want, anytime I want."

Ah, my bad. You have lots of money, so you MUST be right.

I bet your co-workers would be thrilled to know that you are wasting company time, spending the entire day arguing on the internet with a 16 yeard old. Aren't there more productive things you could be doing, like laying off Americans and hiring Chinese kids for twelve cents an hour, or pumping toxic chemicals into our air and water?

"It will be a long time before you have to take on any real responsibility"

Says the guy who posted 9 times within 5 hours on a wednesday...

" I went to that page you are talking about, its a fucking joke. There's plenty for young adults who are still minors, with all of the typical "angry teenager" articles and such, but not for real movers and shakers. Just the same, our KOBE Bot is downloading the entire site for analysis. We may borrow some of the site elements for use at KOBE."

It is a fucking joke! That's the whole point of the site! It's all humor. It's also one of the most highly visited sites on the web. The word "maddox" is much more widely known than the word "kobe".

I hope you know how rediculous it is that you are downloading Maddox's website for "analysis". It's just about the simplest site out there. The elements that make it work are creativity and a sense of humor...elements KOBE couldn't recreate in a million years.

"On the other hand, we stated a whole 3 days beforehand that we would shut down http://anarch.netfirms/com because it was an "Anarchism for Children" site which we think is sick."

What was so sick about it? He's exposing youth to a form of political theory they won't really hear about in schools. If the government can expose kids to the kind of jingoistic trash they put in American history textbooks, why can't this guy show them the other end of the spectrum?

The CIA has a web page for kids. Now THAT is fucking twisted. An organization that specializes in overthrowing democracies, training death squads, subverting elected governments, assassinating world leaders, traffiking drugs, and murdering civilians around the world has a web page for kids. You wanna talk about some sick shit? Hey kids, pick a third world country to napalm!

"I bet youre still a virgin. "

Wow. That's the first time I've ever heard a conservative criticize a teenager for not having sex.

It's also completely irrelevant.

"Did you do those pieces of sh...I mean art? Obviously, that site is not meant for adults. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK, KID! Im trying....really hard....to keep from putting you over my knee and pulling your little pants down to spank your ass a rosy red color."

Wow you really are a moron. First of all, it's not my site. Am I a computer programmer in my late twenties? God damn, you're a moron. Second of all, Maddox, the creator of the site, was trying to be funny. The whole point is that little kids drew them and he is making fun of them. Little slow on the uptake, buddy?

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 22, 2004.

To anyone reading these messages from an adult perspective, your response speaks for itself. Instead of responding in a well organized manner, you took the statements of the earlier post out of context and blurted out whatever your limbic brain was thinking at the time. You are full of anger. I dont know why, but it has to be related to family life. You arent alone in that, but the way you are venting your anger is detrimental to your future, and detrimental to the future of the country which will be your generation's inheritance.

"Then you try to show everyone how important you are by telling us all about your fancy house and your well-paying job. Big shit. I really feel sorry for you if you think that that is what life is all about. I'm sixteen and I know better."

Textbook knee-jerk response from a 16-year old who still has to do what Mom says, still has to clean his room and go to (high) school. We are as far apart in perspective as a father and son.

"Im sixteen and I know better".......BWAHAHAHA

You just dont get it.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 23, 2004.

I don't care if you hate homos or not. I was making a point about our controlled press. Many religeous folks think homosexuality is a willful sin. The press exploited our ignorance on this issue. The label the democrats get stuck with is that we champion the freaks of society which is a bullying tactic that worked and worked unfaily. It was not a big issue and should never have been. The press controls our perceptions. I remember when I was a kid thinking for myself why we are so much better off than USSR. I thought if our press could knock off Nixon it must be indeed a free press. I remember how sorry I felt for the russians and chinese being controlled by the government press. I remember how angry I was at the russian government for invading afghanistan and how they were pulling the wool over the eyes of the soviet people. Now look who is crying.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@kobeexposed.com), December 23, 2004.

No, the problem with Democrats is that they champion big corporations and still pretend to be the party of the working class.

KOBE,

"You arent alone in that, but the way you are venting your anger is detrimental to your future, and detrimental to the future of the country which will be your generation's inheritance."

In what twisted version of America is speaking my mind detrimental to my future? You don't like me because you think I represent the youth of America as a whole. My generation is mad as hell at your generation, and in two years we'll have the political power to let you know it. You already know that, and you are terrified. You're terrified that in a few years we will have a massize bloc of voters who actualy want **change**, who are sick of seeing their friends and brothers get shipped off to fight for a made-up cause, who really don't want to foot the bill for YOUR generation's fiscdal irresponsibility...and change scares the shit out of you. Well, too damn bad. It's coming and there's not a thing you can do about it. You can shut down our websites, but more will pop up in a matter of days. You will lose this battle. Just remember that.

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 23, 2004.

Why do you assume I dont like you because I dont like your ideology? I think tht I would probably think youre a good kid, because I now that you and Tator are friends, and he is a good kid too.

"In what twisted version of America is speaking my mind detrimental to my future? You don't like me because you think I represent the youth of America as a whole."

Speaking your mind is healthy and encouraged. Its the activism to support your beliefs (posting on boards, speaking out against the government, etc) which is the problem. Do you think you are invisible while on the net? You are wrong. Once identified as a target for surveillance, it takes less than 10 seconds to determine your location, and two clicks to AUTOMATICALLY track you. Of course, those tools belong to the government.

My generation is mad as hell at your generation, and in two years we'll have the political power to let you know it. You already know that, and you are terrified. You're terrified that in a few years we will have a massize bloc of voters who actualy want **change**, who are sick of seeing their friends and brothers get shipped off to fight for a made-up cause, who really don't want to foot the bill for YOUR generation's fiscdal irresponsibility...and change scares the shit out of you. Well, too damn bad. It's coming and there's not a thing you can do about it. You can shut down our websites, but more will pop up in a matter of days. You will lose this battle. Just remember that.

You dont know what youre talking about. My generation is the 1960's generation. The Baby Boomers. Who would have thought that a steady diet of Sex, drugs and Rock and Roll would have changed hippies into yuppies? That is exactly what happened. Flower Power gave way to Conservatism, and a Bush-led America. Your generation does not yet see the big picture. The catalyst is when you have children and a family to raise, and after you get out of college and start establishing your career. I found that the liberals who had voted THEIR America in, are responsible for eroding American values and National Security by passing bullshit giveaway legislation, by coddling criminals, and by communist welfare programs.

Your America will not be led by dissidents. It will be run by those who go to college and get degrees in finance, business, Information Technology, law, and other power careers. It has always been that way, and it will always be that way. Dissent doesnt pay well. Pragmatism does, and the "haves" of your generation will control the "have nots". The small group of "haves" will be able to protect their interests by using those things put in place by those before us to ensure "domestic tranquility". You cant yet possibly know what Im talking about regarding that, but you will.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 23, 2004.

Anti,

In contrast to some of your other readers, I enjoy reading your posts, and think you put in a good amount of thought into them.

Then you try to show everyone how important you are by telling us all about your fancy house and your well-paying job. Big shit. I really feel sorry for you if you think that that is what life is all about. I'm sixteen and I know better

I particularly like this attitude. I think many people at my stage of life got there by being brought up at an early age to *achieve* monetarily, and then when one gets there (I can't really say I'm suffering at this point, but am by no means John Kerry rich) one finds that really what you've done is traded your hours of life for junk. Nice junk perhaps, but still junk. Granted you need to make enough to provide for your old age and children's higher education, but beyond that -- skip it and spend time with your family! Time is the one thing you can't make more of (well, that and land, so buy real estate too) LOL!

Bazooka Joe

-- 2 (1@3.4), December 23, 2004.

"I particularly like this attitude. I think many people at my stage of life got there by being brought up at an early age to *achieve* monetarily, and then when one gets there (I can't really say I'm suffering at this point, but am by no means John Kerry rich) one finds that really what you've done is traded your hours of life for junk. Nice junk perhaps, but still junk."

(chuckle)

I think Im probably in your age range, Joe. I agree that our parents gave us a work ethic and an educational ethic as a guideline, but Im not sorry at all. I happen to LIKE my "nice junk". I have found that people who dont have "junk" would gladly give up their banal existence to have some junk. Case in point: lottery winners. You take a semi-poor anarchist American complete with black hoodie and scarf, and tell him that he has just won 10 million dollars. I would bet 20 million that within a year, that person would be driving a luxury car, living in a nice home, crammed with as much "nice junk" as possible. That same person will be broke within 10 years.

People like us (financially secure and property owners) have acquired the skills necessary to EARN the money we need. We know how to balance our personal resources so that even if it were taken completely away, we could get back to where we were in a short time. We have learned how to fish, as it were. I enjoy my family and friends, and I care about people. I am also American, and I am not going to be made to feel guilty about being successful.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 23, 2004.

KOBE,

One thing I meant to express, but probably didn't do very well, is to state that by no means did I want to be *poor*. One needs to be comfortable enough to not have the stresses of knowing whether one is going to eat or not, knowing your health insurance and all are covered, or even minor things like having an old deathtrap car that may or may not work. That's o.k. as a kid when you don't have any real responsibility, but later on -- no thanks.

Beyond that though, I really don't know where I'd draw the line, and see a bigger spectrum of acceptable than I used to. We moved into a nice area for "safety and schools", a view for pleasure, a nice, new house so that everything worked, etc. and after awhile, you realize that if you had decided to scrimp on everything more than you did, you'd have had a lot more free time to spend with the kids.

Also, make no mistake, I'm not criticizing your or anyone else's choices in how comfortable you want to be. I think anyone has the right to decide for themselves how much stuff they want and need, if they earn their own money to get it. If a new Maseratti or boat makes you happy, more power to you! Everyone needs SOMEthing to toy around with. just for myself, I'm not really sure trading in the cars every couple of years is worth the spending more time away from the family it takes to stay there. I know for a fact that "joe 6 pack" gets to attend a lot more of his kids' baseball games than I do (which to be honest isn't always such a bad thing LOL)

Bazooka Joe

-- 2 (1@3.4), December 23, 2004.

KOBE, the only side I have chosen is the side of Liberty and Freedom from stupidity. I do however disagree that Anti is just repeating others and that he is wrong for being an activist. Is he not doing the same thing that you are, just with a different point of view. Shit, KOBE, disagreement is embeded in the very makings of our Great Nation. Look at the our Legislative Branch of the Federal Government. The reason we have 2 people in the Senate is so that the small states have equal representation. They thought that it would be unfair if all the states were represented like the House of Reps.

KOBE, you and Anti should really look for your common ground and work for a better America from there.

Anti, while I respect you alot as being much more intune to the political atmostphere than most people your age you do however see things with a lack of experiance. Im not trying to insult you its just... where were you when Bush Sr. was elected? Regan Re-elected? I remember those events. the one in 88. Not bad for a 6yrold, no? On top of that Im very sure that KOBE and Joe have even more political knowlage than either of us. They lived Iran Contra and Watergate. They KNEW the danger we lived in during the Cold War. I was alive then. I never really grasped the consept of Nuclear winter and MAD (mutually assured destruction). While we may think that they are wrong on thing (and KOBE, everyone is wrong at times), Anti, we have to respect that they have much more firsthand knowlage of this stuff. While we think that they are wrong, maybe they are basing their decitions on somthing they have already went through. Learn from the past or you are doomed to repeat it.

KOBE, one more thing... I really think that you have an inferiority complex. You always have to meantion things like cars and money on a political forum as if social status really make someones oppinion anymore relevent. While good at researching the issues, by doing this, YOU are acting like a 16yrold kid. "My parents got me a car and yours didnt" kind of thing.

Well... now that Ive offended everyone..............

-- Dick Tator (inneedofliberty@yahoo.com), December 23, 2004.

KOBE, the only side I have chosen is the side of Liberty and Freedom from stupidity. I do however disagree that Anti is just repeating others and that he is wrong for being an activist. Is he not doing the same thing that you are, just with a different point of view. Shit, KOBE, disagreement is embeded in the very makings of our Great Nation. Look at the our Legislative Branch of the Federal Government. The reason we have 2 people in the Senate is so that the small states have equal representation. They thought that it would be unfair if all the states were represented like the House of Reps. KOBE, you and Anti should really look for your common ground and work for a better America from there.

Excellent suggestion. However, I dont think Anti are doing the same thing (in opposition). I am for Liberty and Freedom as well, but I also interpret that as being the foundation of our NATION. What some other nations want is fundamentally opposed to what America wants. When there is conflict, I proudly take the side of America. What, am I supposed to comfort my enemy?

Anti, while I respect you alot as being much more intune to the political atmostphere than most people your age you do however see things with a lack of experiance. Im not trying to insult you its just... where were you when Bush Sr. was elected? Regan Re-elected? I remember those events. the one in 88. Not bad for a 6yrold, no? On top of that Im very sure that KOBE and Joe have even more political knowlage than either of us. They lived Iran Contra and Watergate. They KNEW the danger we lived in during the Cold War. I was alive then. I never really grasped the consept of Nuclear winter and MAD (mutually assured destruction). While we may think that they are wrong on thing (and KOBE, everyone is wrong at times), Anti, we have to respect that they have much more firsthand knowlage of this stuff. While we think that they are wrong, maybe they are basing their decitions on somthing they have already went through. Learn from the past or you are doomed to repeat it.

Of course I can be wrong. I can be arrogant, obnoxious and condescending, and for those things I apologize.

KOBE, one more thing... I really think that you have an inferiority complex. You always have to meantion things like cars and money on a political forum as if social status really make someones oppinion anymore relevent. While good at researching the issues, by doing this, YOU are acting like a 16yrold kid. "My parents got me a car and yours didnt" kind of thing.

LOL. Okay.

Well... now that Ive offended everyone..............

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 23, 2004.

END HTML TAG

-- Dick Tator (inneedofliberty@yahoo.com), December 23, 2004.

I don't give a fuck what tools they have. I'm not scared of the government. So what if they can "track me down". What are they going to do? Put a bullet in my head for posting some shit on the internet? Whatever. At least I'd be off the hook for my chem midterm. But they wouldn't do shit. I'm not a threat, I'm just another 16-year-old "keyboard commando", as Joe put it. Tell you what, I'll make it easier for them.

Ben Donovan, 1508 Hardwood Lane, McLean, VA 22101, (703-533-8963)

Want my cell number, too? (703)-489-1454

Do your worst.

"You dont know what youre talking about. My generation is the 1960's generation. The Baby Boomers. Who would have thought that a steady diet of Sex, drugs and Rock and Roll would have changed hippies into yuppies? That is exactly what happened. Flower Power gave way to Conservatism, and a Bush-led America. Your generation does not yet see the big picture. The catalyst is when you have children and a family to raise, and after you get out of college and start establishing your career."

You guys used to have a cause. But then you sold out. You cut your hair, put on a suit, and voted to send a new generation off to fight in another needless quagmire half a world away. Just wait. I predict in the next few years there's going to be a new generation of Weathermen, and new Abbie Hoffman, a new Malcolm X, a new Martin Luther King. And I honestly think that terrifies you, just as it must have terrified your parents.

"KOBE, one more thing... I really think that you have an inferiority complex."

You know, Tator, I was thinking the same thing...I think he's trying to overcompensate for problems in his personal life, whatever they may be, by bragging about his nice car or his nice house and how he can shut down this site and that one...I really do pity him if that's all he sees in life...

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 23, 2004.

You guys used to have a cause. But then you sold out. You cut your hair, put on a suit, and voted to send a new generation off to fight in another needless quagmire half a world away.

Yeah, we did that, but the questions you should be asking are WHY we changed from "Free Love" to "Nuke Iraq!". We didnt sell out,we got real

Just wait. I predict in the next few years there's going to be a new generation of Weathermen, and new Abbie Hoffman, a new Malcolm X, a new Martin Luther King. And I honestly think that terrifies you, just as it must have terrified your parents.

That doesnt make any sense. Our generation solved the problems which cause Malcolm X and Martin Luther King to rise. The political climate which existed in the 1960s is NOTHING like it is today. There is no "Great Cause" domestically to incite rioting or massive protests like back then. Im not terrified of anything happening domestically except the failure of my government to secure the Mexican-US borders.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 24, 2004.

I agree with KOBE on securing borders for security reasons. We spend all this money on a new wing of government because cia and fbi had poor communication. We should have spent that money on border patrol agents and inspecting incoming products at our ports. We have plenty of jobs in Mexico that used to be American Manufacturing jobs but 50 cents an hour isn't going to deter the mexicans from crossing our border. We could keep them there if their pay got increased to 2 bucks an hour. Americans cannot compete with 50 cents an hour either whether it be china or mexico. This global economy only helps the CEO's in the long run. Sure I can buy a pair of sneakers for under 10 bucks but if I could find american made sneakers for 17 bucks I would buy them but I am the exception. I was looking for american sneakers in the 80's at payless and there were none. The warning signs are here folks but nobody sees the future impact that will bankrupt this country. People rationalize the deficits yet can't see that the baby boomers will retire shortly. We need surplusses to handle that hurdle coming up soon. 1945 was 59 years ago, we better buckle up. Not only are our manufacturing jobs gone but now our administrative jobs are being outsourced to India. We are heading for a brick wall. 45 million without health care. I guess 55 million in 4 years. Our president is a corporate whore and I have seen absolutley no evidence to counter that claim. I can see an Enron disaster going nationwide. No bread, let them eat cake is our motto. We are so out of touch as a nation.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@naftablows.com), December 24, 2004.

EXCELLENT response. I agree with absolutely everything you said there. So, why do you hate me? Or is it just my group that you hate? We arent out there breaking the law. We use stuff like TOS Agreements, and local laws to get sites removed that we dont like. If those sites are not breaking the TOS Agreements or any laws, we cant do much about them.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 24, 2004.

ISRAEL

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@abandonisrael.com), December 24, 2004.

If you look at the socio-political structure of the Middle East, and compare it with the West, the E.U., and Communist China, you can see that what is being prevented is a United States of Islam. If such an entity were to arise, it would control the world's oil reserves and it would quickly be able to acquire nuclear weapons and advanced defense systems. The Islamic countries and Israel are well established now. The Israelis are already nuclear armed, and between the two evils it would be Israel which would stand the best chance for promoting democracy in the region.

How do you feel about the erosion of America by liberalist policies? How about ethnic (not racial) profiling to help identify criminals and terrorists?

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 24, 2004.

The reason the arabs hate us is our support of Israeli atrocities. Everybody wants to do business with us including the arabs. I have my doubts about 9/11. How many sleeper cells have been found? The best way to stop further/initial arab terror is for a 2 state solution. We need to put our money into a palestinean state that has their own infrastructure, hospitals and businesses. What the hell is going on with these settlements? I call Israel government no better than apartheid. If it a so called democracy then I have seething anger at the Israeli people that refuse to demand change. I do not desire to see the destruction of Israel either but how can we continue to support them when they bring the terror on by themselves and refuse to acknowledge it. We no longer need Israel now that communism is no longer a threat. Israel is the reason most countries see as hypocrates. We are hypocrates for supporting this human rights disregarding country. We need to be consistent our it will continue to bite us in the ass. If the arabs did hijack those planes it was because of Israel. We can stop other countries from attacking us because of our enormous firepower but to stop terror we need to understand what their issue is.They have a legitimate complaint. I think 9/11 was an inside job. I never know what to believe when the news is given to us. We need our country back from the ultra rich and the jews. we need our airwaves back. We need to stop having iowa or new hamshire from deciding our challenger's nominee.(how about rotating states that start it off like a lottery)

What would you think you would feel when you are 96 years old and the JFK truth(mossad/oil/cia) came out along with 9/11 truth and it was Mossad/oil/cia/bush/sharon that brought down those towers? I know you are not 100 percent sure it was the arabs today. We both were so sure of it on 9/11. I cried that day like palestineans cry every day.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@americafirst.com), December 25, 2004.

KOBE,

What "liberalist" policies are "eroding America"?

Brasky,

JFK was killed as a result of a conspiracy between some combination of the CIA, the Joint Chiefs, a few other reactionary Pentagon officials, and the leaders of the oil and defense industries. I firmly believe that. Lee Harvey Oswald simply could not have been a lone nut. There are too many odd little twists to the story. Something else was going on.

9/11 is a different story. I'm not going to say that I think the CIA flew the planes, because that's just fucking stupid. Osama definitely did it. But were there other factors at work? We do know, for instance, that Osama bin Laden met with several CIA officials in July of 2001 in a hospital in Dubai. We know that many people high up in the government developed a sudden fear of flying the few months prior to 9/11.

There are parts of the official story that just don't add up. The heroic phone calls home from the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania is a good example- cell phones don't work at 30,000 feet. A brief examination of photographs of the Pentagon right after it was hit will show a hole no stretch of the immagination could fit a commercial jet through, not to mention the complete and total absense of ANY wreckage at all. There are also no eye witnesses of the crash, a mind-boggling contrast to the twin towers attack, which was one of the most documented and witnessed events in human history. Not a single video of the plane actualy hitting the Pentagon has been made public. Beyond that, mountains of documents and footage relating to 9/11 still remains classified. The Bush Administration fought the creation of the 9/11 Commission at every step of the way, and once it was created, did everything they could to impede it's progress. Bush even tried to get Henry Kissinger to head it (the man responsible for human rights violations in Chile, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, East Timor, and probably scores of other places we will never hear about).

Directly after 9/11, there was a diliberate attempt to manipulate the American people into an anti-Arab fervor. All the networks showed a video of Palestinians celebrating and dancing in the streets under the noon sun...the only problem is that Palestine is nine hours ahead, so it was after 6:00 PM when the attacks occurred. Therefore, the Palestinians in the video could not have been celebrating 9/11, as it had not happened yet when it was filmed. So why the rush to show the footage? Could it have been yellow journalism? Isn't it amazing how our "liberal media" is always the first and the loudest voice calling for war?

I don't know what exactly happened, and I have no reason to believe per se that Osama was acting under the guidance of some American entity. But something smells funny, and the government is trying to hide it. What is it?

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 25, 2004.

Anti: We both seem to agree that you cannot trust the bought and paid for press. I wondered the same thing about the palestinean women weeping for joy and children jumping with glee knowing they were 8 hours ahead of us on the east coast during daylight hours.

JFK: Don't discount the mossad folks who were furious that wanted JFK dead because JFK did not want weapons created out of their nuke plant. JFK wanted inspections. They cannot be dismissed as possible suspects.

9/11: Oh sure Osama is part of it. Osama gave the election to Bush by reverse child psychology. It is a shame we cannot count on our press to give us the news straight up. Why was mossad celebrating like they won the world series in Jersey? Why did those folks also have the same weapons as the alleged hijackers? For all I know Bin Laden is in Tel Aviv working on another video to give us paranoia. Israel sucks and so do we.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@groundzero.com), December 25, 2004.

Sorry I'm so late in responding to you SBM, I've had some things to deal with. Anyway...

I respect the fact that you are, or have the capability to fight attemps to sabotge the government, and government workings, through anarchy related sites, communist sites, or "radical" sites in general. But what you are endorsing is prosecuting for thought crimes. People are allowed to discuss whatever they like over the internet, be it changes in government, plans they have to change and better the system. Now, I have a problem with you destroying sites such as those. People can discuss what they like, as long as they don't plan anything violent. If it involves any for-real radical plans to overthrow the government by force, by all means, take them down. I'll even help you take them down if it involves hostile takeover of any kind. I personally do not want to see anything agressive going down in my country. Which is where you and I agree. You say that if you want to see change, learn and understand the system, then work from inside for change. I couldn't agree more.

one of you're quotes...

"Dissent is as American as Apple Pie. I dont mind it at all. However, America is not now, nor will it ever become a socialist nation, a communist nation, or ANYTHING other than the Capitalist Republic that is is today. I dont want it to change, and I will fight against those who would have it change into something other than that."

Again, I respect that totally. You have convictions, and want to stick to them to keep your government the same. But what if it being the same doesn't suit the public? What if they want socialistic reforms? What if it betters America and all of it's inhabitants? Shouldn't it be then allowed to change into more or less of a socialist system? I myself would like to see things like socialized healthcare and a larger, simpler, more efficient federal government. I want to see capitalism and democracy, the two focal points of our nation continue more than anything, they work. But I'd like to see it all run more efficiently, for the good of the working man. Now, would you want to put a stop to that? The basis of this nation continues sucessfully, but it has many socialist policies. Everyone is happier, everyone is cared for, and everyone lives peacfully. Is that something you would fight against?

It just so happens that we are representing those who you consider to be the "Bad Guys". Believe me, if this were a socialist country, and KOBE was promoting a capitalist agenda, you people would see us much the same way as we see you.

I like your capitalist agenda. I agree with it. I just think my left leaning policies and your right leaning policies would work beautifully together. And besides, I don't think you're the "bad guys." You're fighting for what you believe in... I just think you might consider seeing a different path?

"There is only one AMERICA, and we dont want to change it. Eventually, the government will be monitoring the grassroots efforts to promote anarchy and communism as we do, and their countermeasures will be more than just shutting down the websites and contacting the authorities. They will want to arrent, catalogue and maintain files on dissidents."

This is something I don't want to see. True, there is only one America, but it could be made better! Things could be better off! The government doesn't need to moniter anyone other than potential usurpers... dissidents, however, deserve their say. Who says? The first amendment.

Just read over this again, I've had my say. Thanks, SBM. Pasta was right, your brain does work. I agree with much of what you say, believe it or not, and would like to learn from you. I only hope you can learn from me too, if you wish.

-U

-- U msut Feers Me (Dubyalovesblow00@hotmail.com), December 26, 2004.

Yoiu make some very valid points, and I agree with many of them. I actually have no problem with socializing some things (or at least Federally regulating them). On that list would be:

-Medicine (healthcare and hospitals alike) -Power (electric and gas) -Insurance (auto)

I also believe in a smaller, more efficient Federal Government. We are in agreement on those major issues, and we are only slightly out of sync with some of the other major KOBE issues. Things I see as a threat to our system of government are as follows:

-Islam (The religion, not its followers. The more you know about it, the more frightened you are likely to get) whose goal is to bring the ENTIRE WORLD to the will of Allah. Actually, make this include ALL organized religion which aims to influence the government.

-The "lets help everyone" mentality which allows Americans to see illegal immigrants as "undocumented workers" instead of ILLEGAL ALIENS (which is what they are). We cannot afford to "help everyone". We would be better off helping Mexico improve its government instead of being host to millions of illegal immigrants.

-Organized anarchism (which seeks to abolish ALL government), communism, and socialism (as a governmental system).

-Bureaucratic overburden. Why does it take a week to make a decision which could be made in one hour? If "red tape" could be shortened, America could respond much more quickly within the government.

And #1 at the top of the list?

"POLITICAL CORRECTNESS". What a load of crap! Why should we be fooled into softening terms to describe things which are distasteful? Why has the term "Illegal Alien" become "undocumented worker"? Why refer to "Palestinean Rights" when there is not now, nor has there ever been a state or nation of Palestine? Political correctness has taken the clarity away from issues which are VERY clear. Its like calling fire "excess heat production". It should be shitcanned.

True, there is only one America, but it could be made better! Things could be better off! The government doesn't need to moniter anyone other than potential usurpers... dissidents, however, deserve their say. Who says? The first amendment.

Yes, I agree. However, dissent is an inherent element of the goals of any true enemy. The men who flew into the WTC were dissidents of a sort. So is every suicide bomber. Some types of dissent should be monitored more closely than others, and some need to be dealt with in their earliest stages. Right now, groups like KOBE and Protest Warriors, and the Anti-Terrorist Coalition (all of whom are allies of KOBE) are the only people monitoring the net for grassroots efforts to overthrow the government. Whever possible, we will disrupt or destroy those efforts (using entirely legal means....mostly). Its the "vigilante" flavor we have that people dont like.

This board is a great example of HEALTHY DISSENT. You guys discuss change, vent your frustrations about the government, and debate issues. This place is not trying to organize marches, or get petitions signed, or publishing target lists of pro-government sites to attack. Those kinds of sites are our targets, as are the webmasters and visitors of those sites. Maybe what we do pisses people off, but we CAN do it. Until we are stopped, we will continue to support our causes with action against our enemies.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 27, 2004.

KOBE, How does organizing marches or having petitions signed threaten anybody? Those are peaceful tools of democracy. I think it is a riot how you go after your buddy stevie devoy because he is a paranoid schizophrenic and his visions of granduer are truly disturbing. His books suck, his bumper stickers are suited to his sick mind. If I ran a website like his I would harp more on our support of Israel and how our money driven press does not represent the average american.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@marchagainsttyranny.com), December 27, 2004.

KOBE, How does organizing marches or having petitions signed threaten anybody? Those are peaceful tools of democracy. I think it is a riot how you go after your buddy stevie devoy because he is a paranoid schizophrenic and his visions of granduer are truly disturbing. His books suck, his bumper stickers are suited to his sick mind. If I ran a website like his I would harp more on our support of Israel and how our money driven press does not represent the average american.

Stevie did used to harp about American support of Israel. He was labeled an anti-Semite because of that. His article entitled "Does Israel Have A Right To Exist?" was responsible for getting his Angelfire blog removed for TOS violations. DeVoy is a total nutcase. What I want to know is why you were supporting him over at SJD's Voy board before we closed it. Do you still think Im the "cyber- terrorist" he was saying I am? Where is the Hyperboard they escaped to?

KOBE, How does organizing marches or having petitions signed threaten anybody?

Lets look at a scenario: You have anarchists 1 thru 10, none of them know each other. There is a Republican rally scheduled for a given date. On website "A", you have a message board which contains a thread entitled "Disrupt Republican rally coming up!". In the thread are various methods of disruption, blocking traffic, thwarting police containment, etc. Anarchists 1, 2 and 3 have read the thread and are planning to disrupt the rally. KOBE takes the board down, and anarchists 4 thru 10 never see the thread. KOBE follows up the closure with a veiled threat that anyone showing up to disrupt the rally will be photographed and a file will be opened up on them. Anarchists 2 and 3 become frightened and only anarchist #1 attends the rally.

See the logic? See the threat?

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 27, 2004.

KOBE,

Just when I think you're a total douche, you make a pretty reasonable post. Good.

"Medicine (healthcare and hospitals alike) -Power (electric and gas) -Insurance (auto)."

I'm all for it. A couple more things we need to regulate:

-Media. I don't mean censorship, not at all. I mean putting limits on the number of media outlets one company can own. Groups like Clear Channel and Disney now own the majority of our media. When almost all of our mainstream media is owned by a small handfull of people (usualy very, very rich people), this makes it harder for real news to get out. A constant stream of real news is vital for a working democratic society. We need to sharply regulate corporate media ownership and encourage the growth of independent media outlets.

-Tobacco. Give the government the power to recall cigarettes if an unidentified additive is found in it; the government has the power to recall all the fruit in the country is a drop of benzene is discovered, but cigarettes often carry an un-specified ammount of benzene and similar cancer-causing agents. Stop subsidizing these sons of bitches, it's time to put our foot down.

-Beef. Mandate stricter testing of beef for diseases. The tests they are required to run now can miss dozens of potentialy lethal bacteria and viruses. Read the book Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser. I still won't eat a fast-food hamburger after reading that, and I won't eat any other beef either unless I know exactly where it comes from. We need higher standards so that only the cleanest beef makes it to the market. We also need to stop some of the beef industry's dirty buisiness practices. For decades, the big corporate farms have sough to eradicate small farms by controlling the market and fixing cattle prices. They have so many cattle, they can afford to hold thousands of them and not sell them, and then wiat till prices start to creep up and then flood the market, lowering the price of cattle to almost nothing. The big corporate farms can afford that because they have so many cows. But small farmers can be bankrupted in a few weeks. This is wrong and it hurts the American consumer, as we have to buy beef at their artificialy inflated prices. Practices like these need to be stopped.

-Food. Everyone has a right to eat something that didn't come from the dumpster behind Olive Garden. People who need it need to be given three free square meals a day. Period.

-Housing. Everyone has a right to a roof over their head. We need low-cost housing for the homeless. There is NO EXCUSE, in the world's richest country, for people to be sleeping on heating grates. They NEED a place to stay.

-Meat Packing. For decades the meat packing industry has been hiring undocumented workers, paying many of them well below the minimum wage, subjecting citizens and non-citizens alike to dangerous and illegal working conditions, and firing those who got injured. They lie to OSHA, and OSHA never really investigates the claims of worker abuse and labor violations anyway. Something needs to be done. The big meat packing companies are running their businesses like it's 1875. Workers have no rights, they get paid next to nothing, and much of it is done with illegal immigrant labor, which I'm sure KOBE will be thrilled about.

"Islam (The religion, not its followers. The more you know about it, the more frightened you are likely to get) whose goal is to bring the ENTIRE WORLD to the will of Allah. Actually, make this include ALL organized religion which aims to influence the government."

My dad (a total bleeding heart liberal on most issues) always saw it the same way. He thought that if we're gonna be in there at all, we should just start dropping nukes (he didn't think we should put our soldiers at risk for people who obviously wouldn't appreciate it, and I'ms tarting to agree). He explained Islam to me with an analogy to the old sci-fi movie The Day the Earth Stood Still. Ever see that movie? Well, an alien lands on Earth and tells humanity that they've been watching us for a while. He says that he's noticed that humanity is a violent, bitter race that just can't seem to stop killing each other, but they haven't intervened up until this point because they were not a threat to the rest of the galaxy. But now that humanity is developing space travel, they have the potential to fuck up the rest of the universe. So the alien gives humankind a choice: quit blowing shit up, or we'll destroy your planet.

My dad told me that that scene in the movie was kind of like our relations with the Islamic world; they have been killing each other for 2,000 years, but it's been on a small scale. They haven't been fucking with us. But now that they've cast their eyes on destroying the great satan, and begun to export their violence, we need to give them an ultimatum: get your shit together or we will destroy you.

I never really saw it that way though. Most Muslims really are good people, any many DON'T agree with the radical agenda of al Qaeda. There is a huge movement in Iran right now for secular democracy that will probably revolt in the next five years or so. But we won't win Muslims over by bombing their countries. Our only hope at this point is to be above bin Laden in our actions; to set an example for the rest of the world, something we are not doing right now. We need to show them that the United States is not the Great Satan.

"Organized anarchism (which seeks to abolish ALL government), communism, and socialism (as a governmental system)."

Organized Anarchism? Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron to me. Besides, most of the Anarchists I've met are pretty decent people ( though some are a little nutty). Let 'em dabble in Anarchy if they want to. They will never overthrow the government or anything like that. They aren't a threat. Just let them be.

"Bureaucratic overburden. Why does it take a week to make a decision which could be made in one hour? If "red tape" could be shortened, America could respond much more quickly within the government."

Yes, our bureacracy has grown dramaticaly in size since the Clinton era, and Clinton's was too big to begin with. We need a President with the balls to go in there with a red pen and just start cutting off some of the pork.

"Why refer to "Palestinean Rights" when there is not now, nor has there ever been a state or nation of Palestine?"

The same reason we refer to "African-American rights" when there is no such state as "African-America". Because they are a people that are being oppressed and treated unfairly, and something needs to be done about it. They are human beings as well and deserve the same rights as everyone else.

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 27, 2004.

We are getting somewhere here :)

I dont agree that African-Americans are "oppressed and treated unfairly" at all. I think that African American families need to work on their morality (throuigh the churches or schools) and stop investing time and money into things which lead to poverty and second-class living environments. Teenage pregnancy, drugs, dropping out of school, and allegiances to gangs and rap music lead to poverty and the ghetto life. Once there, its THEIR fault, not ours.

Regarding the socialized stuff you listed:

-Media. I don't mean censorship, not at all. I mean putting limits on the number of media outlets one company can own. Groups like Clear Channel and Disney now own the majority of our media. When almost all of our mainstream media is owned by a small handfull of people (usualy very, very rich people), this makes it harder for real news to get out. A constant stream of real news is vital for a working democratic society. We need to sharply regulate corporate media ownership and encourage the growth of independent media outlets.

Isnt this in place already? Unfortunately, the better funded news media outlets are the most read. There are far more media outlets available now then there ever has been. People can CHOOSE what they want to watch or read. Public Broadcasting media is avaiable...even to YOU as an individual! You could produce a show.

-Tobacco. Give the government the power to recall cigarettes if an unidentified additive is found in it; the government has the power to recall all the fruit in the country is a drop of benzene is discovered, but cigarettes often carry an un-specified ammount of benzene and similar cancer-causing agents. Stop subsidizing these sons of bitches, it's time to put our foot down.

Hell, Im a smoker, and I think that cigarettes should be fucking BANNED altogether. They do nothing but fill me lungs with black soot, and they have users addicted to the nicotine. Smoking weed is far better.

-Beef. Mandate stricter testing of beef for diseases. The tests they are required to run now can miss dozens of potentialy lethal bacteria and viruses. Read the book Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser. I still won't eat a fast-food hamburger after reading that, and I won't eat any other beef either unless I know exactly where it comes from. We need higher standards so that only the cleanest beef makes it to the market. We also need to stop some of the beef industry's dirty buisiness practices. For decades, the big corporate farms have sough to eradicate small farms by controlling the market and fixing cattle prices. They have so many cattle, they can afford to hold thousands of them and not sell them, and then wiat till prices start to creep up and then flood the market, lowering the price of cattle to almost nothing. The big corporate farms can afford that because they have so many cows. But small farmers can be bankrupted in a few weeks. This is wrong and it hurts the American consumer, as we have to buy beef at their artificialy inflated prices. Practices like these need to be stopped.

Yep, Im 100% behind you on that issue

-Food. Everyone has a right to eat something that didn't come from the dumpster behind Olive Garden. People who need it need to be given three free square meals a day. Period.

Um, to me, this one is a judgement call. Lets face it: some people are fucking lazy and will gladly take handouts over working for a living or paying for meals. For those who really want to eat, there are places in every city, every town, and every corner of the nation where one can eat. There hasnt been a recorded case of death by malnutrition for any FREE and able American citizen in over 100 years. If they dont like what is being served, then they need to go out and WORK for a better meal. Giving away free food on a large scale is a communist policy. Its like feeding strays.

-Housing. Everyone has a right to a roof over their head. We need low-cost housing for the homeless. There is NO EXCUSE, in the world's richest country, for people to be sleeping on heating grates. They NEED a place to stay.

There ARE decent homeless shelters. Once again, there is a large percentage of the "homeless" who are just too fucking lazy to work. They shit cows when limits were placed on welfare assistance and housing. After two years are up, they should have the skills and resources to make a living. Those parasites will gladly take "assistance" which is being paid by my hard-earned tax dollars, and not give a shit about me or my family. Homeless shelters only require that tenants not drink, use drugs, and that they look for work. They can stay TWO YEARS. That's long enough to get an AA Degree from a Junior College. You are right....there is NO EXCUSE.

-Meat Packing. For decades the meat packing industry has been hiring undocumented workers, paying many of them well below the minimum wage, subjecting citizens and non-citizens alike to dangerous and illegal working conditions, and firing those who got injured. They lie to OSHA, and OSHA never really investigates the claims of worker abuse and labor violations anyway. Something needs to be done. The big meat packing companies are running their businesses like it's 1875. Workers have no rights, they get paid next to nothing, and much of it is done with illegal immigrant labor, which I'm sure KOBE will be thrilled about.

Give me some names and some addresses. I will prove to you that the Feds do not take this sort of activity lightly. If you know of such practices or conditions, all you need to do is to report it. Illegal immigrants have no business touching my food during any part of the processing. They do not belong here, and anyone employing them should be considered a traitor.

-- kobesbm@kobehq.com (KOBESBM@KOBEHQ.COM), December 27, 2004.

Don't open the door to AKO anti. I disagree with the blacks being treated unfairly unless you are talking about racial profiling. I used to work in a defense plant and if you were a woman or a black you got promoted to salary(management)faster, Don't get me wrong, I worked for this black guy that benefitted from this and he was trying to get me promoted to salary and he was of course intelligent but the late 80's to the late 90's we did not get contracts to build subs so out I went. There are alot of factors why the blacks are not doing as well as a whole. They do not have a father figure too many times. They do have a higher crime rate because of this, hard drugs and their culture.They do get opportunities especially in federal or military jobs. I could not believe a black officer who was not a rocket scientist but he was a good people person is a vice admiral now. He really was not that special at all. I liked him but he was not exceptional.I worked with all officers while at sea while I was a quartermaster(navigation)

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@unionrules.com), December 27, 2004.

Brasky, you said this:

Don't open the door to AKO anti. I disagree with the blacks being treated unfairly unless you are talking about racial profiling. I used to work in a defense plant and if you were a woman or a black you got promoted to salary(management)faster, Don't get me wrong, I worked for this black guy that benefitted from this and he was trying to get me promoted to salary and he was of course intelligent but the late 80's to the late 90's we did not get contracts to build subs so out I went. There are alot of factors why the blacks are not doing as well as a whole. They do not have a father figure too many times. They do have a higher crime rate because of this, hard drugs and their culture.They do get opportunities especially in federal or military jobs. I could not believe a black officer who was not a rocket scientist but he was a good people person is a vice admiral now. He really was not that special at all. I liked him but he was not exceptional.I worked with all officers while at sea while I was a quartermaster(navigation)

I totally agree with you, Brasky. I have always been against "affirmative action", and my father (who was black/Native American) told me that affirmative action was nothing but reverse discrimination, and I agree with him. If one cannot achieve a given level without resorting to some lame affirmative action edict, then he/she doesnt deserve the job. I am an IT professional. In my career, affirmative action cannot work because the skills are needed in doing the work. No amount of "people skills" or schmoozing is going to make up for a lack of skills or education. When I was in the Marine Corps, I met exactly ONE black general (Brigadier). While standing at parade rest waiting for him to pass down the ranks for inspection, I could hear his uneducated ebonics voice from some distance. I realized at that point that the rank really means nothing at all, except that it says how much time you have spent in the military. It is also a way to tell what one's salary is. Intellectually, military service means NOTHING at all. However, veterans get preferential treatment in many fields (which is much different than 'affirmative action').

So-called "black culture" seems to consist of ignorant and obnoxious "rap stars", professional atheletes, unhealthy food, ill- spoken English (at least I think its English), and RACISM. I am only half-black, but I have experienced more racism from blacks than anyone. I have NEVER been called a racial epithet from any white person. However, I dont think of myself as being "better" than them, just DIFFERENT. Just the same as I see Oracle and AKO as being different.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 27, 2004.

Closing HTML TAG

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 27, 2004.

SBM and Brasky,

You know, I *halfway* agree with you, in that I would want the BEST brain surgeon operating on me and not just some guy who fit the right quota.

However, I also have enough worldly experience to realize that someone who comes from wealth and who has no other obligations than going to school and has private tutors for everything they are poor in will get great scholastic grades without being very bright, and will get a position of power (for an inexperienced person) just because they went to the right schools, and speak in the right vernacular, and look the right way. OTOH, a very bright but very poor kid who has to work full time while paying their own way through school is NOT going to have the time or energy to devote to their studies as the rich kid does, and if you were to really take a good look at the two kids, you might come to a different conclusion on thier worth. For example, the one who without any expectation they would even GO to college (and perhaps were even disuaded from going by their parent(s) and peers from going) and the other who was expected to go to pops alma mater from day one and had everything handed to them, would B's from one really be worth less than A's from the other? IMO, not necessarily.

I think affirmative action took into account some realities that were previously not addressed, it was just expanded beyond what was really appropriate.

Finally, there has been "affirmative action" for the rich LONG before there was affirmative action for the poor or minorities. If you are a Harvard grad and donate a gymnasium, will your kid get in behind you? Yes. If you are rich enough your money BUYS admittance to a good school, not your grades or winning personality. The same goes for business, if you are the CEO of a big corporation and want your kid employed, how hard is it to off the record talk to your buddy at a rival corp about giving your kid a job in his company, especially if you are about to decide on a 50 million dollar deal, and your kid's salary will be 75k a year? That's the way it's always been. If anything affirmative action just means that there are as many poor unqualified people in positions of power as rich unqualified people in positions of power. For some reason though people rail against the poor getting a free ride without railing against the rich that do the same.

Bazooka Joe

-- 2 (1@3.4), December 28, 2004.

Great response. I never thought about it that way. Fortunately, there are still many fields where the affirmative action game will NOT work (fortunately). Here are a few:

Finance (if youre lousy at math, you aint gonna make the grade) Information Technology (you better know your shit if you want to get anywhere!) Engineering (all disciplines) Applied Science (Biologists, Chemists, Pathologists, etc.)

There are many more "fluff" fields which those falsely promoted people can skate by without really knowing much about their jobs:

General Managers Executives Salesmen Collectors Policemen Secretaries Professional Assistants Clerks

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 28, 2004.

Oh, I agree completely! The hard sciences weed out the dumbells in a hurry, but business schools and the soft sciences... you can skate by, and your social standing determines your future.

Who do you think would get the better job (initially at least), X. Kennedy who isn't the sharpest tool in the shed but graduated from Yale (with all C's), or Joe everyman getting the same degree from Bumblebutt U with all A's? Pretty easy answer, IMcynicalO.

Bazooka Joe

-- 2 (1@3.4), December 28, 2004.

Ah yes, the "Good Ol Boy" network. I think that the G.O.B. Network is a remnant left over from the post WWII days and the generation it spawned. Members of that generation are: Dick Cheney, Bush Sr., the vast majority of Republican senators who have been incumbments for at least 3 terms, and many Federal department heads. Those old coots have been sitting in those jobs since the late 1950's, and they will soon be retiring (as it should be).

The Baby Boomer generation, of which I am a member, seems to have truly dealt with the racism issue. We have also formed the new Republican platform which will carry the GOP into the 21st Century. We are calling it "Neo-Conservatism", but its really just a new and improved Republican platform. Many successful non-whites (made possible by Civil Rights Reform) are joining the Republican Party in droves. The Democratic party is a fucking JOKE.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 28, 2004.

Don't get me wrong about the black guy in the shipyard that wanted me promoted.He wanted me because I never bought a test that was not buyable and I had a good instinct for troubleshooting some of the major systems.This guy ended up writing one of his black friends who was out for 5 years and was really worthless and irresponsible. He ended up getting fired for threatening to kill the black boss. He was upset that I would get the candyass jobs as well as the high profile (ones we presented to the navy inspectors)This black boss I worked for was not racist because he wanted somebody he could trust and that was me. He would give all the bullwork to the older folks that were not very smart and hygiencially challenged. I might go back if I can find a good lady to take care of my 18 year old autistic son.(can't believe he is of age)while I work. I have been raising him alone 14 of his 18 years.I used to be bitter against black folks that get aid and here I am in need and because I am not dirt poor I don't get shit. The best I can do is work some place that allows mothers hours.At least my son will start drawing disability soon. Our school system has before and after child care for reguar kids but they do not have it for kids like my son who would need a 1 on 3 person.Talk about discrimination.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@bestmanwinssometimes.com), December 28, 2004.

Don't get me wrong about the black guy in the shipyard that wanted me promoted.He wanted me because I never bought a test that was not buyable and I had a good instinct for troubleshooting some of the major systems.

Those things are crucial to your job, and putting unqualified people (of ANY race) in there simply because there is some bullshit racial "quota" to fill is just plain stupid. Where do you find that sort of shit? In Union shops, in "politically correct" corporate environments (liberal), and in the field of law enforcement.

This guy ended up writing one of his black friends who was out for 5 years and was really worthless and irresponsible. He ended up getting fired for threatening to kill the black boss. He was upset that I would get the candyass jobs as well as the high profile (ones we presented to the navy inspectors)

Threatening to KILL the boss?.....BWAHAHAHAHA! How the fuck did an unstable individual ever get there? That was his "friends"? Id hate to know his enemies! LOL. He probably thought you were getting the best jobs because you are white. You and I both know that this is racist. You got the jobs because you were QUALIFIED. I bet that your boss thought his murderous friend of 5 years was going to use that chance to shine. He was wrong.

This black boss I worked for was not racist because he wanted somebody he could trust and that was me. He would give all the bullwork to the older folks that were not very smart and hygiencially challenged.

LOL

I might go back if I can find a good lady to take care of my 18 year old autistic son.(can't believe he is of age)while I work. I have been raising him alone 14 of his 18 years.I used to be bitter against black folks that get aid and here I am in need and because I am not dirt poor I don't get shit. The best I can do is work some place that allows mothers hours.At least my son will start drawing disability soon. Our school system has before and after child care for reguar kids but they do not have it for kids like my son who would need a 1 on 3 person.Talk about discrimination.

See what I mean? The system is all twisted so that aid goes to the undeserving and the lazy. If only the government had the ability to track trending like the advertisers do, the pattern of an individual to use the "system" to milk out freebies would jump out at them. The technology is already in place, but the "system" is full of incompetent, barely-literate state and Federal workers who would have trouble using a fucking search engine.

I have to say that I really admire you for being there for your son. I can imagine that your life must be almost as difficult as his could be if you werent there. That kind of dedication to our children is not a granted anymore. Now, we have "baby amnesty" programs where mothers just leave newborn babies at hospitals or police stations like UPS packages to be picked up by social workers!

Let me ask you this: if you had to choose between the value system of the two major parties, are you SO sure that the party of the Liberals (Democratic) is working to your best interests? Perhaps things have gotten too far out of hand. I wasnt always a Republican, you know.

-- KOBE SBM (kobesbm@kobehq.com), December 29, 2004.

When I was making good money and my son was able to be in daycare before and after school I considered myself a moderate. I even leaned right. It seems that every government program gets abused and we end up paying more for people to run it than to help people. The best thing I liked about Clinton is after the medical plan fell through his number one plan became to lower deficits.He did work with the fed on this,look it up if you do not believe me. Bush is not a conservative when it comes to the budget. If the republicans were more concerned with the deficit and debt, I would have had a tough time voting for Kerry.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@thirdparty.com), December 29, 2004.

That's true. Clinton was the most fiscally conservative President we've had in 50 years. Certainly more so than Bush. This is what I don't understand about Bush's support base...who is it? I mean, Bush isn't even a good Republican. Fiscally he's quite liberal. He's expanded the federal government. He pretty much ignored issues like gay marriage and abortion until election year rolled around. Really he's got no interest in anything other than enacting policies that benefit the upper 1% of the population.

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 30, 2004.

Well as long as republicans call themselves conservatives your average Joe six Pack american will think that republicans are the financially responsible ones. It took Ross Perot in 1992 who bought his own air time to explain to the american people how dangerous deficit spending is. You were only 4 years old then but your average american took note of that.

How many times did we hear about Kerry the flip-flopper(buzzwords mislead) and how many times did we hear about a 600 billion turnaround regarding surplusses to deficits? Our press keeps Joe six pack american in the dark. Anti-bush I respect you for being up on issues, I was one of the few 16 year old's that was aware of why we were in a recession in the 70's. The republicans labled carter as "inept" but the real truth was that after the 73 israel war the arabs jacked the price of oil up. They did it again in 78 and it was too much. the price of oil caused inflation while at the same time took everything for a family to heat their houses in the late 70's. It wasn't Carter's fault. Get this, Reagan said he would balance the budget by 82. He got the american people so angry about a 60 billion dollar defict(which equals about 200 billion today) and today the republicans say the deficit ain't that bad it only represents a fraction of the GDP.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@stopthepress.com), December 30, 2004.

That's true. Clinton was the most fiscally conservative President we've had in 50 years. Certainly more so than Bush.

Im sorry, Anti, but I have to disagree... Clinton wanted to spend LOTS more than he did. However, a Republican controlled Congress forced him to be the most fiscally conservative Pres. in 50yrs. Bush on the other hand is getting whatever he wants from the same people who said Clinton spent too much. At first, even though he spent LOTS more than Clinton, the DummyCrats said Bush wasnt doing enough; wasnt spending enough. Now seeing that that arguement isnt too popular with Americans anymore (I can see a tax revolt in ten years) they are now saying that Bush is spending WAY TOO MUCH!! They have told you this and now you repeat it. Just like at first when you said that Bushy was UNDERFUNDING programs at first (before the Left switched issues).

You, Anti, play too blindly for the opposition... not everything that Bush does it bad (though most of it is) and not everything that the opposition says is good for you and/or true.

-- Dick Tator (inneedofliberty@yahoo.com), December 30, 2004.

In otherwords... maybe Bush isnt spending too much... just spending it in all the wrong places.

-- Dick Tator (inneedofliberty@yahoo.com), December 30, 2004.

We did the best when there was a democrat as president and a republican congress. It was alot better than a republican president and democrat congress. I guess stalemate is healthy for our future. The do nothing congress that impeached clinton proved that when it ain't broke don't fix it applies. I believe the right wing president and right wing congress will flush us down the shitter much faster than the left wing would have. I think if hillary turns right and goes center she could make it 2008. At least you won't hear the 5th most liberal is running. I think the bashing of hillary could bring a majority of the women back. I think the fact that bill clinton also know as our first black president would bring back the moderate blacks that voted for bush. If Hillary would only have the balls to attack the NOW women for their festive atmosphere concerning abortion she could even get more moderates.

-- Bill Brasky (brasky@stopthepress.com), December 30, 2004.

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-- ~*AngelGoten*~ (angelgoten@hotmail.com), January 08, 2005.

Brasky, you are a nazi. Do you remember posting the following on the KOBE website? "I would not lose much sleep if all of Israel was vaporized. Israel is the biggest reason we have a bullseye on us. Zionist are unreasonable people just as bad as the filthy mudslums. Either 2 state solution or nuke it all to hell." Typical nazi rhetoroic. On your first point,"I would not lose much sleep if all of Israel was vaporized." Actually, you would. The agenda of the islamic militants is the destruction of both Israel and the United States of America. With Israel out of the way, the United States of America would become the main focal point of their "Jihad". Second point attempted.."Zionist are unreasonable people just as bad as the filthy mudslums." What?!? First off the zionists are only unreasonable when presented with an unreasonable agenda ie. the bombings, and many many murders of innocent school children and innocent civilians. It's called "self defense", and as any tactician can tell you, "When met with unconventional force the best defense is often a better or overwehlming offense." The British gov. was defeated by farmers in this manner ie. by adopting the same tactics used by the native American Indians. Remember? (Yes I realize the two were politaclly different but military doctrine stands). Here is the absurd and assinine, last part. "Either 2 state solution or nuke it all to hell." The last guy who had ideas like this ended up putting a bullett into his own head. But don't flatter yourself. In any case, a mental midget is a mental midget. Nuke Israel? You are truly insane, but not in a dangerous sense. You are only a threat to yourself. I suggest you take this "urge" to murder millions of innocent men women and children to the nearest psychotherapist and enlighten them on your feelings as soon as possible. Not to mention your "urge" to stab a friend and ally in the back. You must be a loyal friend to have. LOL!

-- The Power (wolf888@adelphia.net), January 15, 2005.