... a few short questions - Enneagramgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
I have a few short questions:
1. I understand that the Enneagram has neo-Pagan/monist/gnostic origins, and that its modern Catholic proponents constantly fall into synchretist distortions of doctrine, but have there been any scientific studies on whether the Enneagram has any utility as a mere personality test? Has its results ever been compared with results given by other scientifically grounded personality tests? Is there any necessary connection between the questions it asks and the analysis it provides? Can it be despiritualized?
2. I heard once that Cardinal Law said something like, "You can train a monkey to say the Mass, and I'd rather ordain a monkey than a woman." That doesn't sound right to me, and I can't find anything on the Web about it - but is it true?
3. It is clear Catholic teaching that we must obey legitimate governments in matters that don't compromise our conscience or faith. How rigorously does this apply? Should we bring our J-walking and copyright infringements to the confessional?
-- Skoobouy (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 19, 2003
I am interested to see what people have to say about the Ennegram. I never got involved with it, but have thought about. ...
-- MaryLu (email@example.com), January 19, 2003.Hi, Skoo.
... I'm personally very sceptical of the Enneagram personality test type stuff, from a scientific point-of-view or any other. I'm also extremely sceptical about the alledged Cardinal Law quotation (though I supported his resignation for months before it finally materialized). You also ask, "Should we bring our J-walking and copyright infringements to the confessional?" Very good question. I have to tell you, I think about this issue a lot when I'm driving. IMHO, our obedience to the State (cf. Romans 13) does require us to obey speed limits, do a full stop at stop-signs, etc. On the other hand, we'll make mistakes sometimes in obeying traffic laws of course (we might accidentally drift above the speed limit, for example, or do things that fall into a gray area), and we have to stay free of scrupulosity (I know you know what this word means, Skoo, but for those who don't, "scrupulosity" is an excessive concern about sin, to an unhealthy degree). Thus, we should obey the traffic laws, but be aware that we will make mistakes sometimes, and no guilt attaches to us if we are giving a reasonable effort at obeying these laws.
As far as copyright infringement goes, I used to wonder about this, too, and so I did some research, and I found they give more leeway than I thought. For example, copy and pasting someone else's article for a forum like this is apparently O.K. from a legal point-of-view (though you need to give the author's name). Legally, it's O.K. to videotape films off T.V. and watch them later, etc. At any rate, the material for the confessional booth is stuff you *knowingly* did wrong (of course). There are some interesting moral gray areas around the legal question. For example, there are very old laws on the books sometimes that no one enforces and cannot be considered binding anymore I don't think (such as against spitting perhaps). I do not believe these fall under Romans 13. Also, there is the issue that each person has only so much free-time to research civil laws and get an understanding of what applies to himself, and so God takes this into account.
Maybe this would be a good thread to rattle off short questions. I have a few, too. 1. Does anyone know of an on-line set of guidelines for bringing Communion to the sick? 2. When doing the Friday penance, I have always figured that Friday starts on Friday monring at dawn and ends on Saturday morning at dawn, but since I'm not 100% sure, does anyone have more definite info?[cont.] 3. The way the Saturday vigil has been explained to me, as being sufficient to justify a Saturday night attendance in order to fulfill the Sunday requirement to attend Mass, is that the Jewish reckoning of days started on the sunset of the previous day. In other words, once the sun goes down on Friday, then Saturday has already begun. Thus, it is argued, Saturday vigil is really occuring on Sunday, since the sun has gone down. All well and good. But I have a few questions.
In the summer, when days are longer, it is not uncommon to see a Saturday vigil being celebrated when the sun is still up (in other words, it's not Sunday yet). Moreover, it is also not uncommon to see a Mass celebrated late in the day on Sunday, so that by the time people receive Communion (especially in winter), the sun has already gone down (and so it is already Monday, according to the Jewish reckoning of days). Is this O.K. with the Holy See? If it is allowed by the Holy See for some reason, fine by me, but I was wondering if the Holy See actually approves of this type of scheduling. (I'm aware that the Holy See approves of a Saturday vigil to fulfill the Sunday requirement, but perhaps the Holy See wants the sun to have gone down.) In Christ, Chris
-- Chris B -- January 19, 2003.Chris,
re: your last question, the best way to answer it would be to try and find the schedule of Masses for St. Peter's Basilica. If they celebrate Sunday evening Mass on a specific hour without concern for the position of the sun, then I suspect there's nothing wrong with it. Like the scrupulousity thing, much of it has to do with the intent of the worshippers and the intent of the priest. If everybody there understands that 6:00 PM on a Sunday evening is a Sunday Mass, then that should be fine. If the priest believed he was playing a funny trick on the parishioners by celebrating a Sunday Mass on 'Monday', then not only would he be in gravely mortal sin, but the culpability of the faithful would (one would think) almost nothing.
-- Skoobouy (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 20, 2003.re: copyright laws, I have a dillemma. See, I used to have lots of pirated software that I've since deleted. I want to go completely legit now. I also happen to enjoy something called "emulation," a technology which lets me play my old collection of playstation CDs (that I actually own) on my computer. But there is a legal tangle:
The "emulation" software won't work without a BIOS. A BIOS is a small file programmed by Sony and placed in a hardware chip inside of old Playstation machines. There would be nothing easier than to pick one off the Internet to use, but that would be software piracy. I could buy a system and the tools needed to extract the file, but that would set me back more than 200 Euros.
Materially, it would seem that if I owned the system itself, it would make no difference whether I extracted my own copy of the BIOS or picked one off the 'Net. On the other hand, downloading the Net copy -might- be illegal (I don't know about Belgian copyright law yet) even if I own a system. On the other hand, it really wouldn't make a difference to Sony, since I purchase my own games and will continue to do so. Questions, questions.
-- Skoobouy (email@example.com), January 20, 2003.Chris,
re: online guidelines for Communion to the Sick, the answer is 'yes' and the document is Immensa e Caritates. However, I'm certain there is more extensive coverage at a Catholic library or bookstore.
-- Skoobouy (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 20, 2003.Thanks, Skoo, for that link to the document on Communion for the sick. I have to confess I wouldn't even know where to begin as far as finding the Mass schedule for St. Peter's Basilica. I wandered around Google for a while and couldn't find it. If you or anyone else has an idea, please let me know. As far as the computer issue goes, I read over your post a couple of times and don't think I know enough about computers to understand the moral issue involved. I find that the question "What would Jesus do?" is pretty helpful for these moral gray areas, but it's true, sometimes it's still unclear. In Christ, Chris
-- Chris B -- January 20, 2003.Jesus? Video games?! ^_^
-- Skoobouy (email@example.com), January 20, 2003.I have read that they did have video games back in first century Palestine, but it was only video pong. . .
-- Chris B -- January 22, 2003.Skoobouy,
Just a thought regarding your question about whether to buy and install a chip to allow you to play playstation games on your computer. I believe that you are perfectly legal in doing that considering that you have purchased the original playstation and you own the CD's you are attempting to play. You're not shortchanging Sony in any way. It's kind of like making a copy of your music CD for your own use (one for ther car, one for home) - that's legal. You've purchased the right to use that playstation game. The fact that you now want to use it on a different machine and you can modify that machine to play it is not illegal.
It could also be argued from a copyright perspective that just purchasing the game CD permits you to use it any way you want as long as you don't make copies for other people to use, regardless of whether or not you purchased the original playstation gaming box. That's not really different than when car manufacturers build new cars in a way that requires tools to repair that only they produce (e.g., unique allen head wrenches that no one else has). For a while then, their car dealers get all the repair business since no one else has the tools needed to fix the cars. Eventually, secondary market manufacturers make tools to do the job so that local neighborhood repair shops can work on the cars - and that's perfectly legal.
Hope that helps.
-- non-catholic christian (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 22, 2003.Thank you for your answer, Dave. Incidentally, upon reflection, I think there's a real ethical block to what I'm trying to do. Actually, I don't have a game system anymore, so in any case I would have to get one. Well, that's fine - no problem there. However, unless I could copy the BIOS chip myself, then I would have to get one from the Internet.
That might seem fine - and it is, for most.
Jeff's better angel: But those pirate Websitez collectively cost companies millions of dollars in piracy. That means, you know, people losing jobs, and honest investors losing money, and stuff.
It's true, I myself would be doing no harm to Sony by downloading the chip software, especially if I already owned a system. However, by making use of a pirate site to do so, I implicitly give them credibility they don't deserve. Even if my action would not materially harm or benefit anyone, I would still be taking advantage of the evil actions of other people for my own benefit. That seems kind of opportunistic. You know, kind of like those scientists who want to use aborted fetuses for stem-cell research. They didn't do anything wrong, but hey, the stem cells are available - wouldn't using them be the pragmatic thing to do?
Jeff's lesser angel: Incidentally, the fact that we're talking about computer chips and not abortion victims might affect my line of thought. And downloading Playstation BIOSes is, on a cultural level, about as morally reprehensible as eating a grape off the cart at the grocery store, and even less damaging on any practical or economic level. Am I ready to say that everyone who gets a BIOS off the Internet, just so they can use games that they bought, is committing a serious crime? Seems kind of esoteric.
Great, so I'm either esoteric or an opportunist. *sigh* Catholics have it so hard.
-- Skoobouy (email@example.com), January 22, 2003.With regard to copyright infringements, I too had to wrestle with the "ethics" involved in trying to justify my actions. Ultimately, it came down to this. Pirated Software is pirated if you have not bought a license for that piece of software. In other words, if you have not bought the actual software from the store, obtaining a serial number, but instead used a key gen, tooled with the registry, or reverse engineered it, than clearly you are in the wrong. However, if you were to buy a piece of software, had it only on ONE computer, I don't see any problem with that. You own the license, in that you purchased it, it is only one computer, and the other computers do not share the program. Of course, I am speaking more in terms of Operating Systems, but it still applies.
As to the emulators, I don't know what to think with regard to them. To say that you need a BIOS isn't completely true, because I know many sites that exist that don't require a BIOS, of course, they may be "pre-cracked," but who knows.
Personally, I would confess those sins in that they are actions that, as it stands now, are illegal. I actually was a very big pirate before I had my "conversion as a Catholic," and in confessing found a lot of solace and learned separation in deleting many pirated materials. I think what gave me the most solace was in realizing that God is not a "God of partiality," and in turning to Him we have to be willing to give up all, even those things we enjoy the most.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 23, 2003.
-- The Thread Restorer (Thread@Restoration.com), December 01, 2003
When I was a student at college many moons ago and doing a degree on Psychology I thought of doing a thesis on the Enneagram....I remember checking the databases and finding some evidence of correlation with other Personality Typologies notably the standard Eysenck. However Psychology is as much an artforn as a Science so I wouldn't take all this as Gospel. I love the Enneagram....at the end of the day I found it helpful...take it out of pagan contextx if it makes you happy.....if people's Theology is dodgy in iterpreting it throw that out too...but do not throw the baby out with the bath-water
-- Padraig Caughey (email@example.com), December 02, 2003.
Please don't "love the Enneagram," Padraic. Catholic scholars like Father Mitchell Pacwa, S.J. (who formerly used the Enneagram enthusiastically) have discovered that it is a modern hoax, totally useless and (potentially) even spiritually dangerous. Please track down what Fr. Pacwa has to say, and take it to heart.
I assume that, in Irish Gaelic, "Padraig" is equivalent to the English "Patrick."
Is "Caughey" equivalent to the English "Coy"?
God bless you.
-- J. F. Gecik (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 02, 2003.
Father Pacwa's articles and a few other useful ones on the same subject can be viewed here: Enneagram
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 02, 2003.
Thank you very much for trying that, Paul M. However, the TrinityComm software is not allowing that URL to be processed as valid. It may be necessary for you to give a "higher level" URL and explain how to get to the list of articles you mentioned.
-- J. F. Gecik (email@example.com), December 02, 2003.
Gee, the link works for me. The URL is ...
If this long URL appears broken on your screen, don't forget to remove the break when you cut and paste it.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 03, 2003.
You may have to run a search for "enneagram" and try the "Cult/New Age" category in order to see the articles.
They are really interesting.
-- Catherine Ann (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 03, 2003.
Neither the hyperlink nor the URL (pasted) works for me -- neither in Netscape nor in Microsoft Internet Explorer. If it is working for you, it may be because you still have the page in your cache.
Catherine Ann, I followed your instructions and got to the page you suggested. Thanks! It had a URL that was very similar to that given by Paul (but with a different multi-digit number in the middle). I then copied that URL, backed out to here, and pasted that URL into my "Location/Address" line -- but could not get the page back! Interesting. I can get there only the hard way, by searching. (I meant to say "Petersnet" earlier, not the old name, Trinity Communications. Yikes! I almost applied to work with them in the mid-1980s, before almost anyone had even heard of such a beast as "Internet." I wish I had followed through.)
Well, anyway, I decided to copy the titles, authors, and links of the five articles, for everyone's ease (present and future):
En neagram versus the Catholic Church (R. Kephart)
NC CB Preparing Cautionary Note on Use of Enneagram (P. Likoudis)
Enn eagram: a Modern Myth (M. Pacwa)
En neagram: Spirituality It Is Not (M. Pacwa)
Th e New Age: A Christian Critique (R. Rath)
God bless you.
-- J. F. Gecik (email@example.com), December 03, 2003.