Have you ever read the Bible?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
This is a serious question, have you ever read the bible?? I mean, read it without any prior knowledge of denominational teachings????????????
-- Michael (mdroe@erinet.com), March 03, 1999Answers
Not sure who this is addressed to. I personally started reading the Bible without any denominational intent. I was raised as an atheist. When I started reading the Bible carefully, I didn't belong to any particular denomination. One of the many decisive issues for me was that even non-Catholics admitted that the Catholic Church determined the actual canon of the Bible (there had been debate about some of the NT books in the early Church, and the Catholic hierarchy determined the canon authoritatively at the Council of Rome headed by Pope Damasus in 382 and the Council of Hippo in 397).
In Jesus' love, Chris
-- chris B -- March 03, 1999.you can read the BIBLE in different ways: 1- as a literary work (same as you read the Illiad, etc) 2- just out of curiosity. 3- because someone reccommended it to you as a beautiful book. 4- trying to find the historical background of the Jews. 5- because you found it "inspirational". 6- because you had nothing else to do. AND SO ON AND ON AND ON. If you are a thinking person you'll read the Bible the same way you read any other book: using your head, independently of whatever denomination you belong to. if your reading leads you to faith, no matter in what denomination, remember faith is not the product of your mental work, it is a GIFT FROM GOD. So if you are in some way looking for it ASK FOR THE GIFT. "seek and you will find...."
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 04, 1999.Michael,I'm very curious where your trying to lead with this?? What's your point?
Jamey
-- Jamey (jra@jra-architects.com), March 04, 1999.My point is that i don't understand how one could read the bible and think that it says "without a doubt": worship mary, change the sabbath, pray to the dead, repent sins to a man, Peter is the first pope, the pope is infallable, change wine and bread into blood and flesh, the church is given the right to change Gods words and law..........but, there are themes in the bible over and over and over..........keep the commandments and only through Jesus Christ. God is not an author of confusion. Just because a man can take one or two verses out of context. Or, it hasn't been properly translated and makes it fit his own needs doesn't prove truth. If you can base your faith on single verses you had better have a tremendous amount of faith in the translator. Satan is the author of confussion.
-- Michael (mdroe@erinet.com), March 04, 1999.Among the apostles themselves, which one had the greatest leadership role?
-- chris B -- March 04, 1999.Michael,I thought I ought to say a little more. :0)
Your working assumption is called "sola scriptura" or "the Bible alone." This idea began in the 16th century. Prior to that, Christians have always believed in three elements together: the Bible, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching authority of the successors of the Apostles. These three work in harmony. Jesus does condemn the Pharisees' corrupt traditions (He calls them "your traditions" or "traditions of men"), but not Sacred Tradition. Paul teaches Sacred Tradition very naturally in 2 Thess. 2:15. You asked me to look at a web-site that attacks the Catholic Church, and I did as you asked. The writer there thinks he's attacking Catholic arguments for Tradition but he doesn't even understand the arguments, brother. We can go through these arguments one by one if you'd like; it would be easy to explain how he's refuting something no Catholic has ever argued for! :0) Here's my own view, which I offer because I know you're sincerely delving into all of this: as I mentioned, it was the Catholic hierarchy, as guided by the Holy Spirit, that determined the canon of the Bible. If I were you I'd wonder, "Why in the world trust a bunch of bishops in the fourth century?" :0) It seems to me that you yourself will really want a solution to this odd problem. When we search the NT we find: 1. Teachings that show that the Church is supposed to continue even after the death of the Apostles, and 2. the Church is to have leaders, who are ordained through the laying on of hands, and 3. the Holy Spirit will never leave it. Thus when these succesors of the apostles say which books make up the Bible, we know they were guided by God. They give definitive teachings about the Bible and Sacred Tradition -- in councils exactly like the ones where they determined the canon of the Bible -- and they're guided in those decisions too. Some things are only implicit in the Scriptures, and are described more fully in Sacred Tradition (such as Mary's special role, and purgatory).
I am very glad you love the Bible so much, and I know you've been given many blessings by your faith. I warmly invite you to keep looking into the Catholic faith.
In Jesus' holy love, with no hard feelings, Chris
-- chris B -- March 05, 1999.Chris,**Among the apostles themselves, which one had the greatest leadership role? **
So, who is it?
Jamey
-- Jamey (jra@jra-architects.com), March 06, 1999.St. Peter, as we see in Acts of the Apostles.In Jesus' great love, Chris
-- chris B -- March 07, 1999.Chris -hahahaha!! I enjoyed that one - very good!! Hate is a valid emotion - my original point was to highlight the fact that much hate has arisen in the world due to a bunch of religions that supposedly preach nothing but love and understanding.
As for why I love the enviornment - I can't believe you just asked me that! Actually, I'm lying - I love oil spills and toxic waste. What you probably have realized is that there is no seperation between you and the ground under your feet or the tree in your front yard - you are the same. Every injury done to the earth is an injury to yourself, it's just that people today have taught themselves to tune out this connection.
And yes, there is a hateful way of talking - I won't make up some facade (like yourself) of understanding and peaceful intentions - I hate your religion. I hate what it has done to society and to the Earth. I will not repress my feelings for the sake ofattempting to conform to some stupid moral code that preaches repressive bull like "turn the other cheek, etc." I'm not saying that such an approach is a bad thing, but unless it comes from within instead of being imposed from outside, it is as false as your religion.
-- Russ (r-haynes@students.uiuc.edu), March 07, 1999.****Hate is a valid emotion***Is there such a thing as an invalid emotion?
-- chris B -- March 10, 1999.****St. Peter, as we see in Acts of the Apostles. In Jesus' great love, Chris ****Where in Acts does it say Peter is the greatest?
Jamey
-- Jamey (jra@jra-architects.com), March 10, 1999.YES!!!!!!!!!I HAVE READ THE BIBLE!!!!
-- bish kawa (www.foo@bar.com), March 25, 1999.<< My point is that i don't understand how one could read the bible and think that it says "without a doubt":<< worship mary >> The Catholic Church doesn't teach this.
<< change the sabbath >> Jesus and/or the Apostles did this, as evidenced in the New Testament and in sacred Tradition.
<< pray to the dead >> 2 Maccabees, implied elsewhere in the New Testament, strongly passed on the sacred Tradition.
<< repent sins to a man >> Jesus gave men the power to forgive sins (John 21:21; I'm citing that from memory, I hope I got it right).
<< Peter is the first pope >> Matt 16:18-19
<< the pope is infallable >> See my comments on the thread about papal infallibility. We believe this for the same reasons non- Catholics believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.
<< change wine and bread into blood and flesh >> John 6, all of the accounts of the Last Supper, 1 Cor 11.
<< the church is given the right to change Gods words and law >> The Catholic Church has no such right. Not that all Catholic interpretation will agree with Michael's personal interpretation of the Bible. But since Michael is not infallible I'll take the view of millions of Christians over thousands of years over his any day.
I was not raised Catholic. I have a Master's degree in New Testament studies from a non-Catholic institution so I have indeed read the Bible a few times. I became Catholic because it is by far the most faithful to the Scriptures of all Christian bodies.
-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), March 25, 1999.David, so Jesus changed the Sabbath? You should consult Chris on this, as he believes Jesus changed nothing -- they're all merely "developments." Perhaps we need definitions...Respectfully,
David Harrison
-- David Harrison (sharr3193@aol.com), April 07, 1999.I have an observation that I offer for what it is worth.I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I was raised as an evengelical Protestant. In 22 years as a Lutheran I never once had anyone question my faith. I never read any challanges to the Lutheran faith. I never heard any contempt vented in the direction of Evengelical Protestantism (as an institution). If the Catholic Church is all wrong, if 2000 years of history are all wrong, why have all of these challanges persisted so? Why is the Pope and everything else about the Church hated so? Why continue to waste so much time on a big bunch of mistakes? And why do millions of faithful continue to subject themselves to this established heavy handedness? Am I to assume that all of these people, over all these years were just too weak to stand on their own two feet?
The entire Bible is read at Masses during a 3 year cycle (first reading, second reading, and Gospel, heck us Catholics even have those pesky "extra" books we read). Am I to assume that this is just to kill time? Is it possible that noone pays any attention what-so- ever to these readings? Obviously some of us are reading the Bible, we use it enough to defend our faith. I guess one could argue that we are taking things out of context and only using a few selected verses to suport our Church's teachings(it seems to me that this knife cuts both ways though) but in reading message boards similar to this one I have read quotations, posted by both Catholics and Protestants - and even athiests, from books of the Bible that span the entire collection of Sacred Scipture.
We Catholics are constantly being challanged and accused. So much time is devoted to "are you saved", "have you REALLY read the bible" and "show me where the Bible says to...(fill in the blank)" questions. Seems to me that this is an awful lot of trouble for a bunch of idol worshiping legalists. If you're an aithiest, why bother? If it's all hogwash it will fizzle out. If you're some other faith wanting to convert us, why not put the energy into joining us - side by side if not hand in hand - in the real battle? While we squabble over doctrinal differences Satan is walking off with the prize. Someone asked if Jesus really had this in mind. I doubt he did but I am sure that Satan did. This is just what he wants. Look brothers, our world is falling apart all around us. Children are killing each other, respect for all life is at a very low low and over-all contempt for good is rampant. We can point fingers and shoot Bible verses back and forth until the cows come home. In the mean time Rome (no pun intended) is burning down all around us while we fiddle this same age old refrain. In the time we spend arguing back and forth about Mary or the infallability of the Pope or infant baptism we could save a baby by joining in prayer in front of an abortion mill. Would it be better to convert me from one Christian faith to another or save that life? In the time we spend throwing accusations back and forth over who has really been responsible for all of the wars and suffering over the years we could join in releiving some suffering at a homeless shelter or nursing home. Which scenerio really gives Glory to God? Which one does the most good for this world? I don't offer this to belittle anyone, I just think our priorities are messed up.
-- David (daoelker@ticona.com), June 28, 1999.David,Eventhough I do not agree with many of your beliefs, and we all have some inner need/drive to seek Truth on the Path we travel (not all reach it at the same time -some never do).
However, I had to say that the last verse above is very well put! We should all follow this ideal.
Thank you, Jamey
-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), July 01, 1999.
-- The Thread Restorer (Thread@Restoration.com), December 01, 2003
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