I am researching a few questions concerning SCL lightweight passenger cars...does anyone know the date of purchase (either by ACL/SAL or SCL) of the ex-C&O 11 DB sleepers (6107-6111) and the SCL disposition of sleepers Camden and Southern Pines? I believe they both went to Auto Train between 1971 and 1974. Thanks.

-- scott lofreddo (scott.lofreddo@hq.transcom.mil), September 03, 2003

Answers

With regard to the ex C&O 11 double bedroom sleeper "Homestead", this car still survives on the American Orient Express as "Portland". Another ex SAL sleeper the ex 11 double bedroom Tallahassie SAL 75 a graduate of Pullman-Standard class of 1956 is a crew car on the American Orient express.

The recently defunct "Acadian Railway" dining car 6114 is ex SAL Diner 6114 Budd 1947. Coach 5627 "Magnolia" is ex SAL 6263 ex FEC Jacksonville Budd 1946.

CP Rail's Track Evaluation Car 64 is ex SAL 6273 ex FEC "Hollywood" PS 1954, while its companion Accommodation Car 65 is ex SAL 6265 ex FEC "Pahokee". This car was built by Budd in 1949 for use on the "New Royal Palm" and is built to a Southern Railway design.

-- Michael W. Savchak (Savchak@mnr.org), September 17, 2003.

Scott: as to the disposition of the " Camden ", I don't know where the car wound up, but I have a photo of the car 2/2/70 at Hamburg,SC, still lettered " Seaboard " with Pullman on the car ends. It has some windows boarded up and is sitting on freight car trucks. I have an interest in this car too as Camden is very near my home and I was the last Amtrak agent to man the station in Camden.

-- John Potter (Seaboardrrjp@aol.com), September 07, 2003.

Any luck on the sleepers Camden and Southern Pines? I do not show them having SCL numbers or being sent to Auto Train in 1971.

-- Scott Lofreddo (SCOTT.LOFREDDO@HQ.TRANSCOM.MIL), September 05, 2003.

Back to the Greenbrier, the photo I have does clearly show Hamburg on the letterboard. Unfortunately the 6000 series SCL number, if it had one, is not visible.

-- Larry Goolsby (lgoolsby@aphsa.org), September 05, 2003.

I will try to get a list together of which cars went to Hamburg Industries. I do know that the initial cars selected by AMTRAK included only post-war sleepers, thus the "River" series cars would not have even been considered. Secondly, not all of the SCL-Hamburg Industries sleepers were initially purchased by AMTRAK. As an example, the following SCL cars were purchased by AMTRAK and then were wrecked in December 1971-5024,5133,5466 and 5600. In their place AMTRAK received from SCL sleepers Jacksonville, Portsmouth, Marion County and Putnam County.

As far as the remainder of the Seaboard 5-1-4-4, all of the sources I have checked show only the three cars-Bay Pines, Cedartown and Pinehurst as being purchased by Autotrain.

-- Mike Savchak (Savchak@mnr.org), September 05, 2003.

Scott, I imagine by the time Amtrak rolled around,the old,tired,multi-mile built in 1938 for the "20th Century Limited" and rebuilt in 1949 "River" series cars were wore out.

-- J. Oates (jlosal@mindspring.com), September 05, 2003.

I will try to remember and answer everyones questions. First,Mike,do you have any information which SCL sleepers were sent to Hamburg for rebuild? Actually,I think these cars were sold to them and leased back.Notice "Hamburg" on car ends instead of "Pullman". I would like to write an article.I have no information and only two pictures. Not sure if "Camellia" and Gardenia" were rebuilt,but names were changed by SCL to "Everglades" and "Okefenokee". First "Bird" cars were rebuilt from 14RMT-2DR ACF sleepers in the River series to 7DBR-2DR.Later "Bird" cars were like "Bob-o- link","Thrush" etc from B&O. Second "River" series,ACL 4-4's.Larry's ACL book said these were bought from NYC in 1962 as 4-4-2's at that time named "Imperial"series,nee "Bridge" series.I thought when Pullman rebuilt and renamed these in 1949 they were changed to 4-4's? Some of the cars that Scott mentions that did not go to Amtrak,possiably because they were P-S or ACF cars.Not sure of which one but I have a picture of one of the first Amtrak simple paint schemes on one of the sleeper-lounge cars. Also I am looking for inforamtion on the UP 11DBR cars that SCL leased with "Seaboard Coast Line" spelled out on each end.

-- J.Oates (jlosal@mindspring.com), September 05, 2003.

In one final bit of "assuming" that I'll do today before actually looking at the photo tonight, I am pretty sure the Greenbrier was lettered Hamburg, which would indicate it made it that far at least.

-- Larry Goolsby (lgoolsby@aphsa.org), September 04, 2003.

Scott:

I think that the Camellia and Gardenia were renamed after swamps- Everglades and Okefenokee if my memory serves me and they made it to Amtrak. They were P-S products of 1954 intended for use on the-"NEW DIXIELAND", along with similar cars built for C&EI, FEC, L&N and NCSTL.

-- Michael W. Savchak (Savchak@mnr.org), September 04, 2003.

I think you are correct. There is no data showing the car actually on the SCL roster at all. Additionally, there are a number of sleepers which made it to the SCL roster but not the 12/71 Amtrak roster. Notably: 10-6s Osceola County, Chatham County, Glynn County, Polk County and Ware County; and sleepers Camillia, Gardenia, Wrightsville Beach, Cape Fear River and Suwanee River. As I continue to research these cars, I'll share the information.

-- Scott Lofreddo (scott.lofreddo@hq.transcom.mil), September 04, 2003.

It could very well be that the car was in service on the SCL but never made it into the SCL roster. I am sure that the car was probably used on SCL trains before it was purchased and even after it was purchased, it could have been used before some terminal illness sidetracked it. However, according to the materials I have, the car did not make it into the roster the SCL adopted in 1970. Could it be that when the cars went to Hamburg Industries, a decision was made to sidetrack the car??

-- Mike Savchak (Savchak@mnr.org), September 04, 2003.

Can't speak to the number gap, but I do have a photo of the Greenbrier, evidently in service, on a train at Tampa Union Station. There's no date on the negative (Uncle Joe, it's one of yours, look in your notes and tell us) but I am guessing around 1970 -

-- Larry Goolsby (lgoolsby@aphsa.org), September 04, 2003.

C&O 11 Double Bedroom cars MONTICELLO, NATURAL BRIDGE and GREEBRIAR were added to the SCL roster on September 1969. The HOMESTEAD and MT. VERNON were added in March 1970. Apparently, the GREENBRIAR was to have been assigned an SCL number as a gap exists in the car numbering system, but the car was used for spare parts and probably never made it into service.

As for the 1955 Budd built sleepers that went to Auto Train, BAY PINES was renumbered to AUT 602, CEDARTOWN was renumbered to AUT 604 and PINEHURST became AUT 606. All three cars were rebuilt 1975-76 to 7 bedroom-3 roomette-1 "Honeymoon" suite cars.

-- Mike Savchak (Savchak@mnr.org), September 04, 2003.

I will get you the exact dates tomorrow after I dig out the details at home. I believe the C&O cars joined the SCL roster in 1970, but I will double check at home.

-- Michael W. Savchak (Savchak@mnr.org), September 03, 2003.