Some folks thought I was just being cynical, when I said that the PATRIOT ACT would soon be applied to US citizens in addition to only alieans.!

Anyway, here’s the first part of an article I just found, after being alerted by email that the US is building concentration camps for its own citizens; note the author's credentials:

AMERICAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS

Camps for Citizens: Ashcroft's Hellish Vision Wed Aug 14 20:09:38 2002 68.98.68.169

Camps for Citizens: Ashcroft's Hellish Vision Attorney general shows himself as a menace to liberty. By Jonathan Turley Jonathan Turley is a professor of constitutional law at George Washington University. http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/08.15B.ashcr.camps.htm

Los Angeles Times

Wednesday, 14 August, 2002

Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft's announced desire for camps for U.S. citizens he deems to be "enemy combatants" has moved him from merely being a political embarrassment to being a constitutional menace.

Ashcroft's plan, disclosed last week but little publicized, would allow him to order the indefinite incarceration of U.S. citizens and summarily strip them of their constitutional rights and access to the courts by declaring them enemy combatants.

For the rest of this article, go to http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

It's so long I hate to post the whole thing here.

joj

-- joj (jump@off.c), August 21, 2002

Answers

Well again I will make a statement that proves how ignorant I am in an attempt to throw off the Feds who monitor these forums and prove how harmless ( Crazy ) I am toward their plot to put everyone who steps out of line in a cage .Now my writings are part influenced by a song that words: "Paronoia lies deep, into your heart it will creep , it's starts when your always afraid, step out of line , the men comes and takes you way". Now I believe there are people (mostly white U.S. Americans ) who want to over throw the government we have now.They are digrunted with buisnesses that are going over seas and causing lose of decent paying jobs, that they've become dependent on to sustain their life styles ,They feel they have been betrayed by this and their now government .They have had the flow of the milk and honey for soo loong they've become like fat loyal house dogs , that have been conditioned out of all their natural instincts , and now thrown-out into the woods to figure out how to eat on their own without the old table scraps and dry dog food.They are angry that our society is starting to tolerate gay peoples desires to express themselves openly in society, some even flaunting their non mainsteam sexual preferences , just like hetrosexuals do , In Public . They are mad that some Afican Americans are getting educated and getting employment positions in society beyond the porters, waiters ,janitors, and cotton pickers of the past ,to lawyers , doctors, bankers , school principals , politictions, judges. The fact that most African Americans have ancestors that have been in the U.S. for longer than a lot of whites has not made their progress more acceptable. They are angry at the foreigners who are becoming successful at owning and running stores and hotels , even though they may not be born here in the U.S. or even been in the country a long time. And now the government is even going to let non citizens vote. And some White Americans are fearing that non white races are growing at a faster pace than the white races , and anyone with 3rd grade math skills knows this will leave the white race as the minority real quick . So now there is an actively growing underground movement that is wanting to over throw this government that is allowing this to happen.They are stock piling weapons, getting organized, trying to convert others, and are planning for the day to rally the people around a call for freedom from an oppressive government. They are even using the false pretences of being Christian and claiming it's their God given right to protect their superior race against the fags , the non-Christians, the Jewish run media, all others they consider degenerates of society , and the non -whites who they fear will soon out number them and will treat whites ,the way whites treated them in the past.They are using the religion of Christianity ,to propell their agenda , the same way the muslim religion is being used to propell terrorist attacks.......Anyone who's studied the teachings of the one whos name was change to Jesus, Christian or not , knows his teachings were of non violence,peaceful methods of change.. And violence will destroy your soul. So now our government , who has information that is not being released to the public , on account it might help this " government over throw movement" become larger and stronger, are cracking down on our Freedoms in oder to stop a revolution before it happens. I am very verble and opinionated and I believe I will be considered a threat to the new revolutionary government. I am also not pure white , although I have a good deal of Anglo Saxon blood. Like Croatia and Germany before , I most likely will be at the wrong end of the ethnic cleansing of the new government, as people of the wrong race or religion were, in those countries. I don't like the new restictions that are going to take away Freedoms. It sounds naive, but I believe if a humans motives are pure, and his motives are to live in peace and don't disturb the peace of others and hold no negative thoughts in their soul toward other humans no matter what the others do , and accept no Freedoms from another man or government , because if you believe another can grant you freedom ,you will believe another can take it away.These new laws will only affect the ones who , no matter what they say, have some hidden negativity in their soul and this will make them susceptable to the Controllers.So although their will be attempts to take away Freedoms, only the ones who leave the least bit of negativity in their hearts and souls ,will need to fear. If I'm wrong and I get thrown in one of these prisons one day , I'll just fast ( not eat ) for as long as it takes and go to the next life. No big deal. Some times it just ain't worth , what your fighting for. They could hold your body in chains and your mind in fear. But they can't bond your soul. I will always be free.

-- SM Steve (Unreal@home.com), August 23, 2002.

And in memory of MOVE. I mention .. the group of African Americans who wore their hair in knotty dreds, and raised their children in peace and ate only raw non animal foods...And were considered a disease by their neighbors in Philidelphia , a city of Freedom and Liberty ??? They never get mentioned on this forum...I always wondered if it has to do with them not being white.?...They too, like Waco , were burnt alive with their children in a house in Philidelphia... Their crime was , their neighbors said they picked through their garbage cans and they looked ugly and unkept and the neighbors put presure on local officials to oust them out of the neighborhood and the people of MOVE wouldn't leave their house.... That was the only thing they were ever able to be accused of. ..4 city blocks of houses also burnt as the fire spread quickly. This was in 1980. I hear of the injustices of Ruby Ridge and Waco . Well what happen to Move....Am I the only one who's ever heard of them or is it , they were the wrong race at the wrong place ? The mayor of Philidelphia who ordered the fire bombing of MOVE was also African American at the time, if other wise, Jesse Jackson would have been dancing all over the air waves like Michael Jackson. Some Americans never had Freedoms that could be taken from them now.

-- SM Steve (Unreal@home.com), August 23, 2002.

Building? They are already built, manned and provisioned awaiting their inhabitants called guests. I will search my books and post quotes and references so that you can see for yourself. Question is: "Who you gonna blame? Clinton and Reno are not in the WH it is Bush and Ashcroft, so who ya gonna blame for the removal of your constitutional freedoms, rights and expensive privledges?"

Who ya gonna call to restore it all?

Just myo. Have a good day

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), August 24, 2002.

Steve, I never even heard of MOVE. What you see is so completely different from what I feel and how my mind works that I find it amazing. Whatever floats your boat....I am not worried about my own life near as much as I am about the children who will follow us, and like it or not, what we allow to develop is what we leave as an inheritance for them. If it doesn't bother you to leave them a totalitarian police state, then you don't fight against it.

You misconstrue many of Christ's teachings because you fail to see that Christ came as the sacrifice and he was God incarnate, and God is the same always.....Meaning, Yeshua (means Yahweh is salvation) is not a mamby pamby roll over and take it God, but just and holy- in other words, He won't allow this garbage to continue forever. Christ comes back with a sword and pours out his wrath when he returns...in the not so distant future. I suppose if you believe in reincarnation that none of this matters because you will just get to be something better next time....or if you believe in some of the more bizarre veins of reincarnation teaching you could just be a rat. But a really good rat, I'm sure. Meanwhile, what about your kids, or grandkids? I'm not intending to slam your beliefs at all, just to point out that it leaves something deeply unsettling in it's wake....and I guess I don't get why you post here if you don't feel that there is any merit to desiring freedom....hmm. I don't want to step all over anyone to secure freedom for others, but I see no reason to lay down and let tanks roll over me either. I don't think I'd make that nice of a rug.

To the topic:

JOJ, this is what us crazy 'right wingers' have been crying about for years. The FEMA camps. Basically I see this as public admission. Whoopdeedo. Another conspiracy theory proves itself. Frankly I am wishing something would point in a different direction.---sigh---

-- Doreen (Bisquit@here.com), August 24, 2002.

Doreen I won't post here anymore. My purpose wasn't to disrupt your forum .I thought freedom to express one's views was welcomed here. I didn't realize the totalitarian nature of your forum site until now .It's appearent that it's here to fortify a one sided belief.And truth is from from the motives . I think it should be renamed................... Totalitarian Self Reliance. I don't subcribe to the Militias for Jesus type Consciousness or better put un consciousness.

-- SM Steve (Unreal@home.com), August 24, 2002.

If you've never heard of MOVE, look into it. It happened in 1985, before Waco, before Ruby Ridge. It's the event that woke me up to the "jack-booted thugs". Not that it should make any difference but they weren't all african-americans with dreadlocks. The founder of the sect that eventually ended up under siege was a white man. They originally called their group "The Christian Movement for Life".

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), August 24, 2002.

To all concerned, Steve is actually right in his diatribe about the state of affairs as they are. His points are well taken, though not so well spoken/written. I personally have not heard of MOVE either, but my diatribe against american christianity is thus: the christians of somolia and ethiopia, systematically slaughtered by the muslims (documented prrof: voice of the martyrs) were their homes were destroyed, nursing mothers had their breasts cut off, in effect killing their babies; cattle, crops destroyed and they were run off into the desert to die. No outcry against these rthings by the so- called caring pop[ulace of christian maerica. The muslims were ok until NY. What is the difference between the people of somolia and NY? Somolains ans ethopiains are BLACK and not worthy of outcry for. Thousands killed more than in NY, yet we jump up and cry indignantly about osama and comapnay that this country trained and financed and KNEW about prior to 9-11. BS upon BS, right left same thing no matter no different all the same.

I hear all the time about the "gooks" that come to this country and take jobs become rich and all that. You know they see the value for themselves what this country offers that inborn inhabitants do not and take for granted. Yes this country needs migrant workers from mexico (then dar spics), why, ain't no white boy gonna pick strawberries, work is too hard. Personally pay me in cash and I will do the work, ain't no problem for me. You would not believe the turmoil that these "foreigners" have to go through casued by white people whose IQ is smaller than a 100th of a dollar. (slang terms might be deemed un-PC, even so it is not a problem to write what is verbally used in everyday life.) Yes I know the turmoil of what minorities have to deal with. The problem is that the "manifest Destiny" is runing out of gas. Buchannan wrote a book concerning the decline of the white race as a population base, and says that in a few years will be the minority. The tribe a Japheth is declining. The problem with christianity is: it inot very judeo, more european in nature, not based on a nomadic mentality by=ut a city-ified one, has little to do with reality but based on control. It was based on supremacy of race and not of God and the fact that jesus. aka Y'shua (to be precise) is a Jew. Not the blue eyed wispy/wimpy creature you have nailed to your crosses and paintings. I however believe in Y'shua he is H'Mashiach and he is God-Incarnate. I do not know who this christ is that is in churches these days. I am also a beleive in the God of Avraham, Yitzack and Jacov. I aslso have the belief that God is masculine and feminine, how else could god create woman if woman was not also God. Brand me as you will. The socaleed puritan ethic that has ruled for so long is a far cry from anything Y'shua, i.e. jesus taught and I speak from one who believes in the resurrection and the mission of redemption.

Anyway, Doreen it is a nice surprise to see that someone else actually knows more than what is breast feed in churches. A refreshing idea indeed that there are some who are not a limbaugh clone amd clonette. Kind of difficult to deal with conversations that are no longer than a 30 second sound byte. (Kill the TV) Although I agree with you and I agree with steve I wonder who will be right in the end. AS I don't stand either left nor right, but in the center. (quite different than in the middle). I have beleived that this country was heading for a dictatorship for a long time. As you knowe it is not mentyioned in the bible, aminly becasue the US is the only power capable of bring about the peace treaty. Does that make you wonder? Still there might be hope, though i doubt it that the "Jeffersonian democracy that was established by the founders, though has been trashed considerably by the so-called christain influence (like the pursuit of happiness? happiness is a state of ebing that belong in church and in home, the phrase was "property")(flame away if you want), but the velvet covered jackboot will soon be upon your throats anf it will be by our colective free will and choice of which there is no redemption. The safest place on earth for awhjile will be Israel. Besides it is the last democracy on earth. My Humble opinion.

JOJ, I am almost finished writting the list of references regarding the happy camps that are already built by FEMA. I will give locations and such.

Doreen I have some info on your chemtrails subject, test results from canada on the composition of the rain and such. Would you like me to post it on the other site?

OK I will stop now, have I annoyed everyone yet?

Have a good day.

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), August 25, 2002.

Sorry for the typos, I am just as not well written as steve. LOL. I get kind of sloppy when I am writing in a hurry.

Have a good day

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), August 25, 2002.

This information is rather dated so bear that in mind. I stopped being concerned with this stuff prior to the BS called y2k; which was to get the computer systems to integrate better at tax payer expense. (MyOpinion) I used to believe that if one knew the truth of that way it is and was informed one could by duplication of effort and knowledge stand against the tide. Not so. Now I am just trying to build my own ark, it might be the only chance I/we all have.

It takes alot of time to type these things, so I would suggest that you inquire with those who actually are current and gives a damn; and can do something about it instead of me who sees it and can do nothing about it; becasue there is just too much to lose and nothing to really gain.

(All references are fom the following book: The world's last dictator, 1995, Dwight Kingman Chapter 4, pages 24-5)

DOD Budget Amendment #656 authorized the implementation of trwenty camps. There are now (****as of 1995) 43 detention camps that are predeployed inside the continental US. This was tagged Operation REX- 84 and essentially is a massive detention center where they paln to incarcerate (****invite as guests) all citizens dubbed as potentially subversive.

The American's Bulletin in November, 1992. reported: The white houseissued a highly classified National Security Decision Directive (NSDD). This directive set forth urgent instructions which activated ten huge prison camps at key defense command locations across America. Four of these inyernment facilities were designated to hold at least 25,ooo civilian prisioners. They are located at:

Fort Chaffee, AK: Fort Crum Military Reservation, NY; Indiantown Gap Military Reservation, PA; Camp Hill, PA;

A total of ten concentration camps are activated under REX-84 program. The additional 6 "emergency custodial facilities" as they are conveniently called, were quietly set up on existing US military bases. they are:

Fort Benning, GA; Fort Huachua, AZ; Elgion AFB, FL; Oakdale, CA; Fort McCoy, WI; vANDENBURG AFB, CA

Preparations have long been made for a massive coast to coast round up of NWO secirity risks and security suspects (loyal Americans who will resist, who are not politically correct for the New World Order). The goal of such an unprecedented police state operation is to accomplish what the New World Order proponents call "C and C" (or Capture and Custody). Guess who they mean.

Hell there are so many things to list that I can't, get the books and ask for yourself; get the other enlightened ones to fill you in it. All I see is the world is heading into darkness and chains, it is just too much sometines for someone who kust wants to live quietly and at peace with all people. It is a pity that we a re humans, a rather limiting and limited experience.

Have a dreamy day. (Do you think that we are free? if you say yes, then I have a bridge to sell you. Come on helkp a poor guy out I need some cash)

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), August 25, 2002.

Ok some stuff for your consoideration.

references are the same as above, same chapter different page.

The new National Police Force is being assembled at this writing to be made up of military, law enforecement, and civilian personnel, which Clinton plans to consolidate into one huge police agency; the Drug Enforcement Agency, the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF); the Customs Service; and teh Criminal Divisions of the Post Office and the IRS. The resulting super police agency (also called teh Multi-Jurisdictional Task Force) will have the Soviet- sounding name of the Directorate of Central Law Enforcement. (***My note here*** It is called "Home Land Security" instead, and it is under the mantle of Bush not Clinton. Why, liberals always had the republicans to counter their wishes, not since the republicans have spearheaded the same in a different suit, there is none to gainsay it. The Libertariians have no candidate and no power base so we are now in chains)***)

The new head of the National Police Force (which many fear will be the American equivalent of the KGB or the Nazi Gestapo) will be Attorney Geberal Janet Reno. (***My note here*** As you can attest to, Ms Reno is not in office but Mr. Ashcroft is. Thisa assumption tah the liberals is the "bad guy" has lead many I think to the chains offered by the velvet covered jackbooted republicans.****) The DCLE will have a White House supervisory council appointed by the President which will ensure a political institution that willl go after the government's political enemies first. (****My note here*** His assertion is correct, just not the right President)

(Ref: Mark Koernke, quoted in McAlvany Intelligence Advisor March 1994, p. 7-8)

-- jonathan (jonatahn_sz@ayhoo.com), August 25, 2002.

Steve, why do you feel threatened by my beliefs?

Jonathon, you might want to try going to www.homesteadingtoday. This Lusenet forum is pretty dead....sadly so, in my opinion.But I would like any and all info on chemmies. I can honestly say that I don't know what the heck is in them, but it isn't just petrol evaporating....Oh yeah. Rush. Ugh. Dittoheads indeed.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), August 26, 2002.

Doreen, I have just started to visit the homesteading.com site, as this one is down alot or is busy alot, not sure which. It was to your chem trail post there, that I posted the question here. Figured that it would be easier o get an answer of yeah or nay here than there. I will post it soon so that you can get an idea as to what is in the "water and air" and compostion of the chem (not vapor) trails. True this site is not so busy anymore, it is still an avenue for discussion that might not take place over there or will get lost as it is not the easiest of sites to navigate in.

I have rarely heard anyone other than A) a messianic Jew, or B) myself; refer to jesus with his Hebrew name, well there is a branch that uses it but I am not sure as to what they call themselves. 'Tis nice to see that someone else looks into things a little deeper than the shallowness of what I see as churchianity today.

I do think that steve is just reacting to what he thought was good information and it was not accepted. Easy to get hurt, I am not sure that it is your beliefs that caused him pain, rather the not understanding from where he is coming from that is the cause of his discomfiture. I think (MyOp) that his reference to the "next life' wasn't per se about reincarnation, but it could be. And I think (MyOP) that his thoughts were in line with the fact that he finds the movement of so-called "survivalist" to be of the oppressing sort and the white is right mentality is not right; has caused many a brilliant person to be thrown to the wayside because they was a minority; he sees (rightly so) that the "fureners" get a short ended stick, even though thet come here, work hard and prosper as the country says they can. He sees (rightly so) that the hew and cry that all these "fureners" are taking good jobs from """""good""""" white americans (yeah right) that most wouldn't do the work anyway is bogus. If they did these low paying back breaking jobs, it is news to me. So his "beef" (why is it called "beef"? why not chicken or turkey?) is that the "policy of manifest destiny" is doing more harm than good. Causing a great deal of consternation to his sense of rightness and equality and equanimity of life a it should be in his view.

So steve if I am wrong in my analysis let me know.

Doreen, no disrespect intended, I am just analysing the situation. (It is a bad habit of mine) Easier to do when it is not me in the discomfort arena. Do forgive my arrogant attempt of peacmaking and bringing understanding (as I see it anyway) to this sensitive issue.

Have a good day.

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), August 27, 2002.

Jonathon, the thing that irked me about Steve's assertions were that he insinuated that this board was rascist by extrapolating an entire montage of injustices to many of the ideologies that are paramount traits of patriot thought. Also the assertion that Christ would have us all lay down and die and stand up for justice is a personal point of extreme irritation for me. I am the furthest thing from a rascist and really take umbrage to anyone intimating that I am a rascist because I am a patriot. I judge whom I will or will not hang out with on their indiuvidual character alone. Skin tone is completely irrelevant, and 'white guilt' is detrimental to the healing of breaches betwixt the ethnic and racial divisions that we have. It's another card of divide and conquer, and it seriously irks me.

Of course Steve has a right to express his opinion, but he then has a responsibility to define and possibly defend it as well. That's why I asked him questions....I wanted answers to those points. Reasoning is important. It makes you reasses your predelections. Steve is generally very open minded, yet he is closed to explaining his conclusions. The reference to reincarnation is because from other threads he has stated he believes in it. That's fine, but it does leave some nagging problems when coupled with complete pascifism.

So Steve, if you are reading this, please try to address the questions I asked way up there....please.

As to Yesua, and Yahweh etc., I studied the names of God Almighty and since scripture says there is no other name by which you must be saved, the name of Jesus. I found it quite enlightening, and I have simply begun to refer to them by their proper names. It is obvious that names are quite significant to Yahweh as He changed many people's names, and sent angels to tell people what the name of their child should be. It stuck with me. I'm just another blood bought, born again Bible thumper, with a habit of checking everything against scripture as opposed to my feelings or tradition. I still have a long way to go.

Bye for now!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), August 27, 2002.

To be honest Doreen, I did not pick up on this point:

>>>"Steve's assertions were that he insinuated that this board was rascist by extrapolating an entire montage of injustices to many of the ideologies that are paramount traits of patriot thought."<<<< Sorry, I see the diatribe as in relation to the whole in total and not to a group or individual in part. It did not occur to me that he was accusing you of being a racist. I think that steve's assertion was pointed at the movement in particular to his own experience with the patriot movement. However that maybe, he is correct in saying that elements of your movement are indeed supremist/racists and want this nation to be one of white power under the banner of naziism, true it is called neo-nazism today, nut a nazi is a nazi. Why is Adolf Hilter the ideal? This has baffled me for a long time. Besides the old adage "They all look alike to me" is what is at work here.

He is stating his belief, that some aspects of the culture mainly white and judging from his manner of speaking, he is as well white; so I am thinking that it is criticism of his own people that is expressed. Further more he is showing frustration at the widespread effects of the doctrine of "Manifest Destiny" that has been the driving force behind this country for two hundred years. You will have to agree that this country has done injustices to the minority groups and to the native peoples; this cannot be denied and what would you like done, brush it under the carpet and forget about it? Sounds good if it is forgotten to heal the rifts of unequality that this country is not about. Since it is one primarily of "immigrants" lest we forget. Furthermore, it is true what i said about work in farms it is not easy, personally I like being a computer technician, pays better; but I have no qualms about picking strawberries. (just pay me in cash) I am not one who does not know the struggles of the minorities and the heavy prices they pay to etch out their living in America.

So having said that, I do sympathize with your state of being irked. It is your board and it is only proper to be respectful. And it is if thought placed in it to be bold and opinionated and still be respectful.

Also you stated. "'white guilt' (this term I do not fullt comprehend) is detrimental to the healing of breaches betwixt the ethnic and racial divisions that we have. It's another card of divide and conquer, and it seriously irks me." Again this is true, the seperation divide and make the wound fester. I also say that the divide betwixt male and female has torn apart the fabric of humanity as well. If there will be healing done, it will have to be donbe as it says in the preamble, "all men (unfortunate usuage here) are created equal and endowed with inalienvale rights by the creator. From here we will heal, and from here all can be made right once more. Men of reason made this document and people of power has trashed it, and the people of comfort allowed it to happen. It is beyond repair I'm afraid. Unless you can show me people who will stand up with reason and pssion from that reason to stem the tide of te tyranny that is coming, of which is done by the free will and concent of te governed, of which there is not a hope of earthly redemption. Hence also why Jesus died for us all. To come back and fully redeem us from our sheepness.

Also I am not aware of this point: >>>"Also the assertion that Christ would have us all lay down and die."<<<< Since I will confess that I am but a newbie here, I have not seen many of the discussions as you have. I think that the frustration is that the witness is often done by buffoons with a bible in hand and a multitude in tow, proclaiming the supremacy of christ in sucha fashion that crdibility is lost. Then they go on the rampage crying that they are being presecuted. When in fact they are being chided and derided for being fools. Which they will quote that they are being fools for christ, ad infinitum ad nauseum.

It is not always the Bible Thumper that is closest to God. One can do all sorts of christian deeds and still not know Jesus. There is a difference you know. (Well at least to me).

Also I did not realize that his point of view was towards reincarnation. I stand corrected.

However, did you know that the Jewish religious thought at the time of Jesus was indeed towards a belief in reincarnation? The fact that it was not cannonized into belief was it is not a western european mind set. Except amongst the so-called pagans. There are proof text that state this as fact and then it comes down to this: why did not Jesus speak out against it? Also why was it believed until the council of nicea? Tradition or documents? That is a debate amongst scholars, who are unfortunately western trained and thereby biased towards one disposition.

Doreen you are corect in stating that, "Reasoning is important." and yes Steve needs to offer proof text or at least a bibliography so that one can find out for one self the truth.

So to say, I am also a pacifist, but I do know how to use a sword quite well and am not hindered with the fact that if I need to use it I will. I just want to choose the battles if I can. And to determine whether or not the battle is worth the price. Pacifism is not some sin, it is based on reason that war is the final resort to settle a dispute. When all other avenues have been exhausted, then pass the ammunition and get out of the way. Like waise, there are pacifist sand tere are pacifist, are all the same and do they all look alike? Jesus was a pacifist, but what type is the question.

Which moves us to this point, I find it amazing that someone actually studies words, are not prone to letting the priest and minister think for them. Most christians are ignorant of what the bible says, takes it on blind faith which not the faith god wants us to have. Everything in context. Truth is everywhere, god said that he left a witness everywhere, so it ismy opinion that in every religion has elements of truth in them. I do believe that the bible is god's word, but ido not believe that it contains ALL truth. That would be an illogical and apresumptuous assertion. Though it is made daily. Yes names and words are important, it is a pity that more do not study, as they are not equipped and have not shown themselves approved. Most BTCs tend to be mostly powerless words and clanging cymbols. Show me the power, as it is the fruits that determine the income and the fact that tere are a plethora or words does not mean that there is anything more than trival outflow. Show me the power not the words. Also corporate christianity is useless (at least to me) one's faith is one to one. Not church to god, unless you believe that you in yourself are the church or to be precise the "called out ones".

I have been highly criticized for standing against stupid publicity stunts in the name if christ. You know in the 1930s a country in Europe burned books to free it's people from the burden of thinking. I find that any such display of stupidity is not of God, but of evil.

Also I find that the bible says that the christian is able to do things like feed the poor, heal the sick etc. because Jesus went to the Fatehr. There should be no hunger, no sickness, no disasters when a christian is present, yet nothing has changed for 2000 years, why? Jesus did it physically and we reduce it to "spiritual" miracles. So ifind that something is wroing with A)me as a believer, B) the church as a whole, or C) the bible is wrong. There is not many choices.

Therefore, back to the y'shua item: I meant nothing by the praise, I rarely see intelligence in people these days. Sometimes I fail to see itin myself. I meant nothing other than amazement.

As you might see, I am not a christian, been there, bought many tshirts and cds and still have the wounds. I do believe in Y'shua as God incarnate and LORD. I am a disciple of Y'shua. It is sometimes a wonder to see that the church goes to great length to prosyletize the world when it in itself is in need of salvation.

So you then must know that Christ is a transliteration of the Greek word Christos? Which means "anointed one"; which correspondes to the Hebrew H'mashiach, which merely means that Christ is a title, like king or president. The bible does not say that christ is lord, but rather iesus et kurios, or Jesus is The Lord, or Y'shua Adonai. Personally I don't follow titles nor salute uniforms.

So I do thank you for the open discussion one can have on this forum. as you said, "Reasoning is important. It makes you reasses your predelections." Without open discourse reason is blunted and tyranny gains its foothold. A free peole is an educated peole, that will not accept things becasue pappy did nor jowe average does. The mob has never proven itself to have intelligence.

To tha end i say thank you again for allowing open discourse and discussion. It is a pity that we are too human, in that we allow our emotions to get the better of us.

God be with you, or as it has become to read, good bye.

Have a nice day. Jonathan

PS Sorry for the length, it was longer but I refrained as I do love to engage in intelligent discussion. It is my frustration that many cannot converse longer than 30 seconds, (kill the tv) Be blessed.

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), August 27, 2002.

Doreen, comming here to read Jonathans writings , that I find interesting and looking to see if JOJ has writen any new postings, as I find his interesting as well, ( must be something in the water in Oregon ),I see you aking me to defend my posting .At least that's what I think your saying ?.I'm not at war, first of all with anyone so I won't defend myself.And it was completely far from my intention to stimulate anger in anyone.Especialy you , first as Doreen the person and second as the moderator of this forum . Actually the views I wrote of are drawn from opinions of people I find to be mainstream.I talk deeply with alot of people and these are some of the things they have expressed. A good many of the ones who expressed this are self called , Christians...I sensed I angered you, and a comment you made :I don't get why you post here if you don't feel that there is any merit to desiring freedom....hmm"...And I took it , before I get thrown out of here I should leave. And as my comment that insinuates most people here are racist, It's more accurate to insinuate that most people of any nationality,race , religion, sexual orientation , sex are all basicaly the same, people are basically the same in being intolerate to others differences and feel they are superior.I could go into it deeper , but I feel resticted in voiceing my opinion , now that I got the moderater steamed up, or at least that's the feelings I'm getting . You used the word "irked" .My remark of the forum being totiltarian ,a word I'm just learning how to use ,so maybe I used it incorrectly. But the feeling I got from you that made me think it's time for Steve to slip out the back Jack, was simular to :This american born joulnalist wrote an article for the Miami Herald,I didn't read the article but it had something to do with Fidel Castro and Cuba. A group of Cubans who came to the U.S. to live in the U.S. to escape the restictions of Castro's Cuban gov't , including no freedom of the press, didn't like what this jounalist wrote and threatened to bomb his house and harm his family...Those Cubans wanted freedom, but they didn't want to have others express their freedom ? I had alot more to add to my explaination, including personal racist attitutes made toward me in a church by self called Christians , when I tried to attend the church service ,because of my part mediteranian ancesty has given my skin a pepetual tan look to it even in winter months..I won't attend or attempt to attend or enter a church again. This is probably permanet. As I said I have lots more to add to this but feel all I will do is upset people and you and I am just meaning to share some of my views and experiences .I will still come and read others opinions .And Doreen I do not see you or your beliefs a threat. But I do see all forms of violence as a way to avoid the strenuous task of reasoning.

-- SM Steve (Unreal@home.com), August 28, 2002.

I agree Steve, violence should be used only as a last resort. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who's basically a pacifist.

-- Kathy Aldridge (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), August 28, 2002.

Problem with using violence as a last resort.It can probably be safe to assume that every act of violence ,most likely has been justified by the one commiting the act,,as their last resort....Doreen if I get your consent to futher express why I believe the way I do , without be consider a rat , or the suggestion of my next incarnation as becoming one , and without the presence of moderator induced restictions ,or without acusations of me trying to devide people or lay white guilt trips on any one , I will do so . I don't consider you trying to throw insults at me , I believe I'm being asked to keep quite ...I also would like to share my beliefs of why freedoms are being yank out of our lives . Non violent means of achiveing goals are not a cowards way of change...It takes more bravery then sitting behind the trigger of a high powered weapon and killing...I have no ill - will against you nor mean to discredit your mission in life...I do have the habit of discrediting hatred and violence and expose it , if others have expressed it . ..At the same time I would like to share my beliefs of how non violence is stronger than any weapon known on the planet and is feared by evil doers ,who actually gain strenght with every violent action taken , on this planet. I attempt to answer questains and give my motives , if my beliefs don't serve your interest , then no more will be said.

-- SM Steve (Unreal@home.com), August 29, 2002.

hey all, site has been down awhile so I have missed this discussion a bit. I would like to hear more of your points steve as well as express mine (plus hear everyone elses too), though i tend to be wordy and do like proof as well as emotion to back up discusion. Learned that in debate class in jr high. Not meaning any disrespect ot Doreen, I have set up a board to discuss things that are not always considered normal. Besides, it could serve as an meeting place when this sites hits bottom. So here it is: http://denim.bbboy.net/therealmoflivelydiscussionaboutmanythings.

It might work it might not. give it a try. the homestead site I have some problems "logging" on. Besides I enjoy discussion on a wide variety of topic, keeps the mind sharpa and in the days that come when all of the freedoms are gone a sharp mind will be the saving grace.

Also steve we need to discuss the tesla thing a bit more.

Hey Joe, how are you doing?

Be blessed

-- jonathan (jonatahn_sz@yahoo.com), September 03, 2002.

Hey Jonathan, I had the same idea as you it seems, with starting a forum. The only thing that stopped me was , I didn't want the position of being the moderator. . Is your e-mail address real? I was wanting to E-mail you.....It's best for all that I don't come posting here no more.....I have good feelings toward Doreen but I know my future posting will probably create big waves in this little pond... ... . Of course I could probably find a political forum where everyone has the same ideology as I , And like a bunch of clones of myself telling each other how good looking we are. Very little intellectual and spritual growth would come from such a forum ... So one needs to be started where extreme differences can be express and shared with the maturity and civilness where one won't fee like someone is going to lunge at their throat if they share a view point that others don't want to hear or believe. . . I can't apologize to Doreen for posting what I believe ,but I hoped to leave here with the feelings I am friend not foe...And with sharing that ,sometimes the passenger is at the angle of seeing a blind spot , the driver may have missed .And this could be helpful when one is switching into the fast lane , and starts driving recklessly.

-- Steve (unreal@home.com), September 03, 2002.

Steve, Yes address is mine. Some post though I have noticed thatI have misspelled it though, but this one is correct.

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), September 06, 2002.

well steve, I have found that my bb is just as complicated to navigate through as homestead.com. All those passwords, though I did det it up to be guest post-able and not needing to sign in. Options, another one on lusenet; smartgroups; bravenet; yahoo; ezboards; Most can be umoderated as would be my preference, people wpould have to be a tad bit on the civil side to keep from having to install "big government" onto it. Do you have an idea where it can be placed. This way too it can be a back up for this on when this server goes down. thoughts? Send email if you prefer.

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), September 07, 2002.

OK, what i need to know is what would be a good name for a new forum. It is kind of like starting my own country, want to keep it simple (as the name of the one I made can attest that it is not an easy task, though I like the name). sometimes i think that teh only way to make the world free is to start all over again with governments, countries and such; since that is not realistic I guess we are stuck with the SOSDD.

And since I am sure that very few are here anymore, it will be a small gathering of names for the new country. i do still go to the other site, but it is such a pain, like the one just created. Too many passwords and too many graphics that is a chore to load on a slower than giga speed connection and computer crunching power. I have neither. So I am off to make a new country, ha ha ha, yeah right. You know the best governemtn is one that governs sovereigns, makes it easier to lead, a sovereign leading sovereigns instead, we have mere enslavement and taskmasters. I wonder where we went astray from the works of Jefferson, Franklin and Adams. no I wonder why we are so blind to the fact that we are so off course it isn't funny anymore. Oh well, noah step aside, I need room to build. have a good day

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), September 11, 2002.

give this a try, it is a new place to chat, better? who knows. http://www.voy.com/108724/

-- jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), September 11, 2002.