Well server is up, so it's back into the fray! I decided to move this to a new thread because I felt guilty about all the fussing on what started as a happy thread (see new basset baby). Actually I would like to lay down an olive branch before things get out of hand. My wife agrees with you Patty, I can be an ass, and my wife is never wrong. She told me so. She says that the misunderstanding is my fault because I called myself a puppy mill. She said that a Pharmists sells drugs but that does not mean he is a drug dealer. she said we are canine ranchers not a puppy mill. After re-reading my first post I thought that should be clear. I make no illusions to my motives. I breed dogs to sell puppies. I have tried to buy the very best stock I can find. All of my litters have all - and I do mean ALL - their shots for their appropriate age. Most of my litters (but not all) are vet checked before selling. We have a 30 day return policy so if they desire, they can have their vet check their pup. As a matter of fact we strongly encourage them to do so, so we can correct any problems in the beginning.

Would I take a dog back 5-10 years latter? Certainly not, I'm a business man and thats not good business. There are no guarantees in your life and the same is true in the animal world. Hell, I didn't get that kind of guarantee on my new car!

I do not breed my dogs to death. They are spayed and retired after about five years depending on the individual dog. We have always said that we would place these dogs in loving homes at their retirement but so far we haven't had the heart to part with them after they have given us so much love.

I have what I would consider a large kennel, I'm very proud of it. I have three full time people working to make it the best in the country. I don't feed my dogs wal-mart crap, the adults are fead Iams, the puppies are fead Eukinaba, and I don't have to tell you how expensive that is. Incindently, about three months ago the AKC inspectors came out to check on the condition of my kennels, record keeping, and DNA testing. Passed with flying colors and he said in passing that we had one of the nicest kennels he had ever seen. I find that hard to believe because I only do what I think is right by my animals and not nessicarly what top breeders have to say. But who am I to argue. One other case in point. I also have a problem of people encouraging people to go to the pound and shealters for pets. People have voiced concern about pet quality dogs hurting children. If you were ever going to find a "bad dog" it would be at the pound. I don't believe in the "bad seed" theory. I think the treatment of a dog when he is a pup determines its disposition.

Hope this clarifies my position, even though I can be a cantankerous old coot, I do respect other peoples opinion, especially my wifes. She insists. If my mamma taught me anything, it was always to be a gentleman. You never know when you might need some help.

And now for something completely different. A fellow breeder gave us a copy of a flyer that she said her vet gave her. It reads in part as follows"

THE CRUD (not Parvo)

DOG SHOW CRUD (gacterial overgrowth)

Please note, this is NOT Campylobacter infection.

"The Crud" is a Bacterial overgrowth in the digestive tract. It will sometimes test low positive for Parvovirus. It is NOT a new form of Parvo although symptoms are quite similar to parvo. Crud dogs do not have a high temperature, no will they have intestinal lesions. If a normal fecal is run on feces which are not quite to the watery and bloody stage, it will show a very high bacterial content and will be negative for parvo (usually).

Any one of the normal bacteria found in the digestive tract will go into overgrowth. The mystery is what triggers it. Possibly infected urine/feces or something brought in on shoes or clothing or from a visiting dog. We know what cures it and what to do when a dog hasn't been treated quick enough. And of course we know the end results with a dog that dies of it.

It goes on from there for about a page and then goes into treatment. I had never heard of this has anyone had any experience with it. I have in the past lost whole litters of puppies and their symtoms seem the same. My Vet was never able to save them and when I have had autopsies done he said it was gastro hemoragic fever(sp?) what ever that is. Do I need a new vet? He's not high on my list after he lost a whole litter of english bulldogs while doing a c-section. Thankfully the mother came out ok. I can't say the same for the vet after my wife finished with him. but that's another story.

-- Ken in Texas (palooza98@ev1.net), May 02, 2002

Answers

Thank you , if you worded it like that in the fist place I probally wouldn't have gotten ticked off .Think of the dogs and housing you see on a 20/20 show about puppy mills .That's what popped into my mind.I still think only the best dogs should be bred but I will not go into that again .Thanks again ~Patty

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

Good to know that there are some responsible breeders out there. Basset hounds are about the cutest puppies possible (although I would hate to smell the place if you have a bunch of em!)

-- Elizabeth (lividia66@aol.com), May 02, 2002.

I think the best term is Professional Breeder. There is nothing flattering about puppy miller. While I don't belive a bitch should be bred every heat cycle, nor spend their entire life in a kennel, its sounds as if you have the right intentions. I have a neighbor who has a set up similar to Kens, he breeds about 15 types of small breeds. I take and place his rejects (like mon orchids and luxating patellas, etc). At least he won't breed them. He does have some trouble selling to folks that want home raised pups verse kennel raised, but those are the type of folks that come to me. I don't reccommend an adult Humane Society dog for first time owners, but dogs placed through breed specific rescues are a different story.

In regards to a new dog disease, I'm not familiar with what you are discribing. There are a number of new/rare viruses that are popping up their ugly heads but not with the symptoms you describe. Fox Hound packs have been fighting a parasite that causes renal failure and Lepto, giardia, Lymes,etc are more prevalent. Is there a website for this'Crud' disease? Thanks for any info

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

Oh and if I take an older dog back, unless its for a health problem related to genetics, I don't refund their purchase price or replace the dog. I just want my dog owners to know that if they have to give up the dog for any reason, I will take it back. I don't want any of my dogs sent to a Humane Society or euthanized because the owner got transfered out of the country.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

The flyer cont. with:

Symptoms start 12-48 hrs. after initial contact (usually) and may spread to other dogs rapidly.

Dogs are alert, hungry, energetic. Normal feces starts with mucus sheath, continues to get progressively softer until becomes explosive diarrhea. Vomiting may or may not accompany. Feces have a sweet/flowery aroma along with a "slaughterhouse-on-a-summer-day" smell. Feces are *usually* mustard colored then become bloody. Dogs dehydrate at an astounding rate. Dogs are also at risk of intususseption.

The younger or weaker the dog, the worse it is. Some dogs may never get it, even though they may be kenneled with an afflicted dog. Some dogs also get over this without treatment.

The key is to treat this as fast as possible before the dog go anorexic AND to treat ALL dogs on the premises (non-afflicted dogs should get ONE capsule). Treatment is 250mg Cephalexin per 25lbs of body weight. Pups may get Ceph-drops. This MUST be given orally NOT IV - it MUST go thru the digestive tract. If the dog vomits the pill up, just give it again until it stays down. Give another dose approx 8-12 hrs later. If the dog returns to normal DO NOT medicate again.

DO NOT use an IV drip on a Crud dog. Their cirulatory systems will be very depressed *if* a vein can be found, it may not be able to support an IV. Use Lactated Ringers Solution SUB-Q & force electrolytes orally (pedialyte).

I have to stress not continue the drug after the dogs stop the diarrhea. The important thing is to treat them ONLY until the symptoms stop. Also, somethimes affected Crud dogs are not able to handleIV support because of circulatory collapse from massive dehydration. What a Quandry since IV is the fastest way to rehydrate. So giving fluids under the skin is best and ONLY give until the drug starts to work. Afterwards IV is fine. Since the drug works so quickly, this in not too mch of an issue. The whole point is to keep them"going" until the drug has time to work - usually a few short hours.

IV rehydration HAS thrown Crud affected dogs into deep shock and have also found some dogs having a complete shutdown of renal system, leakage of renal and intestinal fluids into various organs, circulatory and intestinal ruptures, etc. Not sure this was directly related to being IV'd but in every instance this has occured directly after IV support was started. Not the case when there was no IV support.

Also, DO NOT flea-dip/worm/vacinate at this time, PLEASE!!!

Do NOT automatically assume Parvo when you see this. This is NOT Parvo, it is a BACTERIAL overgrowth in the digestive tract. Do NOT use Amoxycillin. Dogs should show improvement within hours of treatment using the correct drug. (Disclaimer: This information has been compiled from reports received by treating veterinarians and owners. The information written is what has worked previously. This information should be taken to any veteriarian who is treating dogs with this problem. No one that does not have veterinary training should diagnose & medicate their own dogs).

-- Ken in Texas (palooza98@ev1.net), May 02, 2002.

That CRUD sounds like giardia or coccidia. A pup who has just had a puppy shot will test positive for parvo, because of the high titer. Many vets don't take this into consideration, and allot of new puppy owners don't take that med record with them and don't know.

We use liquid Albon after worming as a preventive for tummy troubles. I worm 3 days, then give liquid Albon for 5 days. Any stress, the ride home, new food (which should be switched very slow) can cause stomach upsets. Actually, they are learning that if you even change the mothers food during nursing, it can cause the pups upsets. And a new food for pups is like a foreign object in their stomach, which starts the illness.

Anything can trigger Coccidia. Anything. Nasty stuff. They say to rid the whole kennel treat all dogs for 21 days with Albon. It's in the stomach naturally, and when we worm, we kill off the good bugs that keep it at bay. So it has a chance to get a hold. That's why using Albon after worming works so well at assuring they don't get it in the first place. And especially before a trip.

It's usually not the stomach upsets, but dehydration from diaharra that will kill the pups. A quick stool sample will save the litter usually. If it's giardia, flagyl (crushed in water) will stop it. Liquid Albon for coccidia. Cottage cheese or plain yogurt too.

So what are they using to cure this CRUD, Ken?

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), May 02, 2002.

We posted at the same time. Mucus sheath is shedding the intestional lining. Flagyl is what comes to mind for me. I got to go outside now, back later if our forum is still up.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), May 02, 2002.

I agree it sounds like coccidia or giardia. The trouble with these two parasites is when they are in an acute phase, you can't always find it in the stool as the animal doesn't always shed organisims at an even rate. The treatment of choice as I've read is metronidazole (also known asd Flagyl)when you suspect giardia. While Albon is effective in most cases of coccidia, I know a few instances where I've heard of resistance building up. At this point it is best to switch to Corid (also known as amprolium) or to decoquinate (also known as Deccox) to get rid of these stubborn infestations. Also, clean, clean clean and use a good disinfectant like TEKTROL.

-- Sandra Nelson (Magin@starband.net), May 02, 2002.

Very informative thread here! Ken, I wish my kennels were like yours. Sounds like a very nice place.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), May 02, 2002.

GHF is not a parasite. I can tell you this because I came close to losing my Cattle Dog, Howdy with it last summer. I am a retired Vet Tech of many years and I confess to being a real worrier about my dog (we see all the things that can go wrong). We live way out in the country and Howdy is now retired from showing, agility, herding, obedience etc. but he does of course go to town with me sometmes and we take a walk down Main street and visit the businesses. Other than that he has no contact with strange dogs. Of course we have lots of wildlife here and dogs can and do get things orally and pick up stuff on their feet. Have no idea how he got this? By the time I noticed him throwing up after dinner, got him right into town(16 miles) and then up to the Emergency clinic(40 miles)he was in bad shape. His blood tests showed highly concentrated blood cells. He was on IV AB's for 48 hours and by the third day I brought him home and he has been fine ever since. Haven't a clue how one could protect their dog from this kind of stuff and neither did the Board Certified Internal Specialists I consulted. Just wanted to pass this on although it isn't any help to anyone. LQ

-- Little Quacker in OR (carouselxing@juno.com), May 02, 2002.

I missed something. What does GHF stand for?

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), May 02, 2002.

=== I also have a problem of people encouraging people to go to the pound and shealters for pets. ===

So do I. The shelters/pounds complain about how many dogs have to be euthanized. If they wouldn't charge as much for their mutts as a breeder does for a purebred dog, perhaps more would be adopted out. But we know they're in it for the money.

I recently purchased a gorgeous purebred puppy from a breeder for a lot less than a shelter. I also saw the pup's mom, dad and other canine family members. And the pup wasn't full of ticks like many of the shelter/pound dogs I've seen! I have never purchased a pound/shelter dog and I never will.

I have also had some wonderful dogs from private homes for FREE. The newspaper is full of them. Look at it this way; if you take one of those free dogs from a home, you're saving it from possibly winding up at the pound if the owners can't get rid of it. And nobody will demand that you spay/neuter. That's YOUR business....wish the AR Terrorists would mind theirs.

My opinion!

-- ~Rogo (rogo2222@hotmail.com), May 03, 2002.

Personally, I have a problem with paying several hundred dollars for a dog because it comes with a bonafide piece of paper. All of our pets have been shelter rescues. Everyone of them was wonderful. No health problems, no behavior problems, etc. And for the record....I have no idea how you can be down on spaying and neutering your pet. I suspect if you had to be the one to kill perfectly healthy dogs/cats day in and day out, year in and year out with NO end in sight because of irresponsible owners....you might feel differently.

-- Najia (najia274@yahoo.com), May 03, 2002.

Oh geez, Rogo, now even spay-neuter advocates are AR terrorists??

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), May 03, 2002.

If you are looking for just a pet , look into rescues and shelters and the newspapers.You can find a loveable couch potato or a walking buddy .For me my dogs are here fo a reason my ACD is here to work ,I cannot do the stock alone and she loves it .My Goldens go hunting with me .And my Sheperds are protection trained and can track {never know when you may loose a kid hehe} .And yes they all are here to love .I could not have just picked up a mutt to do the jobs I needed or wanted them to do .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), May 03, 2002.

I've only paid for 2 of the dogs I've had, and I've had dogs all my life. Some of my dogs have been purebred, but none of them came with papers, which is why I paid so little for those two. The other purebreds were free. And there's been plenty of 'mutts.' Maybe your shelters are reasonable, but where I've lived they charge $100-$150. You can bet they'll euthanize a lot of dogs when charging those prices!

-- ~Rogo (rogo2222@hotmail.com), May 03, 2002.

Hi,

Speaking in terms of pound dogs, our local dog pound lists all the dogs in the local paper, I believe it is a couple of days a week, with "sale" prices listed: such as nice female mixed terrier, $50 sale price. The regular prices can be much higher depending on whether the dog "appears" purebred (after all without paperwork or background how can they tell?). Some go as high as $100 to $125 bucks (they had a sidewalk adoption and most of the puppies did not get adopted as the prices were too high. I think that if the local pound wants to adopt out dogs, the prices should be lowered to the point where they are not competing with registered puppy breeders. I can get a registered dog in my area for a few more dollars and see where the puppy comes from and the mom and usually the dad too. Our local humane society will have a person arrested if they do not spay or neuter within 30 days of adoption. If they are so concerned about spaying and neutering, a certificate should be worth more than $10. Cost me $125 to have my rottie spayed plus the overnight visit and the blood work. I went to the pound to get a certificate and found that it is only worth 10 dollars. I know that it does cost the pound money to keep a dog, but here the longest they stay is ten days and that is only if the dog is a "purebred" with some hope of adoption. The rest are gassed within three days if not adopted. Personally I will not pay $125 for a pound dog, I would rather go to a reputable breeder or through a rescue society. I am not saying registered dogs are any better than non registered, just that you will be able to have some idea of the background of the dog, it's temperment, relatives, socialization, and see the conditions where it was raised. Most pounds know nothing about the dogs they take in unless the owner personally brings the dog to the pound and tells the truth about the dog. There are many free dogs in the paper given away due to moving, allergies, health of owners, too much dog for amount of space, etc. Those would be my first choice if adopting, cause if they are not given away in a short time, they usually end up at a shelter. And most people won't pay the high adoption fees shelters charge here.

-- Cindy (sidepasser@hotmail.com), May 03, 2002.

Those prices at the pound are terrible! My registered B/W BC pups are only 150. And I do sell them without their papers for less to the local, or not so local, dairy farmers who don't care about papers, but want to know it's full BC and will work.

I have a good friend who works at a vets, and she is in real good with the pound guy, so if there is a BC, she can get it out. The vet gives the pound all kinds of things to help them. I don't know what they REALLY charge to get a dog.

We have a one year old now for adoption, she is on seizure medication, and a 5 year old female my hubby is picking up Saturday probably, not a rescue, just helping finding a home. Both of these girls are registered. The 1 year old is $50 as my friend had her spayed, and the 5 year old will be free if I can place her quick. Both had very good homes, they just had circumstances happen, and these are not our pups.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), May 03, 2002.

for Cindy. sorry GHF stands for Gastro Hemorrhagic Fever and sometimes called Gastro Hemorrhagic Enteritis. Sorry, I was just lazy. LOL LQ

-- Little Quacker in OR (carouselxing@juno.com), May 03, 2002.

My adoption fee is $150 and includes spay/neuter, vaccinations, worming, heartworm test. This is generally less than most people would pay for these services. I have worked out a discount with the DVM's I work with, but I certainly do not make money nor do I think shelters make money either. The Dubuque HS is $110 for dogs, $85 for cats (inclues Felu testing too) altered, vacc, wormed. Again, most folks can't match that price, even with a free animal. In my experience,most folks that bad mouth shelters have been denied adoption privledges because they have been deemed inappropriate. These shelters have there rules for a reason, even if we don't agree with them. I don't let my AmSTafs live in homes where they will live outside. I will do spot checks and have taken back a dog, with Sheriffs assitance, that was left to live outside. I have no objections to dome other breeds being 'outside' dogs, but Stafs don't have the coat to live outside in bad weather and they crave human contact and lack of it can affect temperament.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), May 04, 2002.

Both of our female Border Collies found homes today, and the siezure dog found a home with a lady expierenced with them.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), May 04, 2002.

Glad to hear you all take such care in breeding your pups, however haven't heard anyone mention testing of their breeding stock for genetic problems. While this does not guarantee perfect health, it is sure better than breeding blindly. Too many severely dysplastic dogs and ones with seizues and problems. All dogs I had as a child were mutts and great dogs. My first dog as an adult was a Lab that was great til the age of 14. I researched and found a breeder who did tests for hips and eyes. She was the size a Lab is supposed to be 24 inches and 65 lbs. I presently have a field bred Springer that I paid $500 for. She too was researched to death, as there are quite a few problems in this breed as well as many others. Her breeder did the appropriate testing on the parents and guarantees to take the dog back and give another puppy if she comes down with a genetic problem. Of course this does not mean much to me, as I wouldn't have returned her after 2 days no matter what. The best professional breeders are now refunding money for the dogs that show up with problems. They of course do not want to do this, but they are not worried about the money, they are worried about their breed. All puppies (even mutts) should have all their shots and be checked by a vet before sale. Breeders should want their dogs returned to them if the buyer cannot keep them. With the price of Vets and testing most breeders do not make alot of money. Dogs sould not be bred til 3 years of age so problems can show up. They should never be bred on every heat. They should be socialized with people, not stuck in a kennel. Wish you all the best of luck with your pups. Different people want different things. If a person is happy coming to you, that is all that matters.

-- CNoll (CBirder@aol.com), May 06, 2002.