Illegality of the Income Tax : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

This isn't a question but I was wondering how many people out there are aware of the illegality of income tax group The moderator, Bob shultz, lives in Lake George, about 90 miles south of me. I have been keeping up with it for a few years and they are at a point where Congress is totally ignoring "redress of grievences" by the people. Check out the site..Very informative. And join the group.We need all of you if we are ever to get our country back. Layne

-- Layne Cosgrove (, April 29, 2002


How do you think we would pay for things like our military protection, disease control, disaster loans, cancer research, etc. I agree that so much money is wasted and something has to be done about that (it is up to each one of us to elect officials who WILL do something and to complain to those who aren't -- not just don't pay taxes), but alot of good is also used with our tax dollars. It is our civic duty to pay taxes. The federal government also suppliments a lot of state taxes for things like roads, health care, etc.

I would like also to meantion something else here, not meaning to bring religion into it..just an example. When Jesus was asked about whether he believed we should pay taxes, his response was that we should. He said to "render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render onto God what is God's".

-- Karen (, April 29, 2002.

Yes taxes are illegal, and YES I certainly disagree with the way our government uses (wastes) a lot of the money that we send their way, BUT... I agree with Karen. Where would we be if our government did not have the means to provide us with some of the many things we take for granted each day? Taxes, like death, are something we should accept and pay gracefully - if we don't like the way the money is spent, then we should elect people who use our money wisely (in our own opinions -since we all think differently about that).

Now if we could just get this country's billionaire deadbeats and corporations to pay their fair share! UNEQUAL taxation is the real problem!

-- Deborah Stephenson (, April 29, 2002.

I tell my clients all the time, just don't earn enough to have to pay any!! Most people could not live on these amounts. But it is a legal option!

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (, April 29, 2002.

If only they would SIMPLIFY the process. The paperwork during the year, and then at tax time is an unwanted burden. I, personally, am for a flat tax, more on the order of a national sales tax. Those who have. . . spend, and those who don't, can't., so it seems fair enough to me.

NOW. . . the TAX that really, really, bugs me. . . . PROPERTY TAXES. I often say I don't own my place, I merely rent it from the county and state, and if I don't pay my RENT each year, in the form of property TAXES, they will take my place, and sell it to the highest bidder. THAT, I think, is the most oppressive tax of all.

In just a few years, the tax base in this country is going to start retiring, thousands and thousands of us will hit the retirement doles, and then. . . . . . what chaos will reign?

-- judy (, April 29, 2002.

Judi, I'm with you on the property tax issue. That is one I have never understood. What right does any government have to charge you for OWNING something?! I can see - maybe - charging something for things you actually use (like paying a yearly fee on your vehicle for using roads - because they do need to be maintained - but don't we do that anyway when we pay for our licenses every year?) But how do they justify charging you to own your own house and furniture? It isn't as if they will come in and unclog your drain or fix a leaky roof! I don't consume much on average. Groceries and personal items once a month; ocassional tools, and feed for animals - that's about it. A consumer tax would be a lot more fair for me, because I'm not out there using things the way a lot of people I know are.

-- Deborah Stephenson (, April 29, 2002.

I think there is a real need for taxes. No question about it but stop and think what you pay taxes on.. You pay taxes to make money to spend it to keep it. You pay taxes for every possible thing that you can do. Pay taxes to make money to buy the car then taxes when you do buy it then taxes to put gas in to drive it. There is a need for taxes but NOT a need to tax every aspect of you life.

-- JERRY (, April 29, 2002.

One point to consider on this topic, Has anyone ever not paid their taxes and not been charged with evasion? Laws and code are in place, therefore the practice of income tax is legal. The justness of it would be a different matter and would have to be altered through political lobbying and changes in law. Odds are it will never be eliminated as the people with the money put the laws in place while people without the money complain. Many complain of the rich man's benifits, yet they forget, those same rich men provide the little guy a means of income. If the big dawg gets it easy, he is more likely to trickle it down, while at the same time, if the big dawg gets cut in the pocketbook, the first place he digs it from is the little man.

Our world will always run as a type of fuedalism. Instead of kings and barons, we have captains of industry. Show me a communist structure that has actually suceeded as well as our modern fuedalism.

I laughlingly listened to a janitor at our plant say he wished the founder of our company would lose his fortune. The poor slob never took into consideration that the same multi-billionaire was the reason he had a job and could sit on his tail taking an extended break and complain instead of doing his job.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (, April 29, 2002.

Get rid of the income tax all together and have a national sales tax. The poor and homeless should be taken care of by the community they live in through the churches and other charitable avenues. Much of our government could be dismantled by taking this route. Maybe then, our govenment could focus on what it needs to... securing our borders and maintenance of our highways.

-- Joy in Eastern WA (, April 29, 2002.

Ahhhh, taxes! How about the churches paying THEIR fair share! LQ

-- Little Quacker (, April 29, 2002.

We live in a county that has a Real Estate tax, school tax. THEN we have a 10% on your income for an additional school tax, township tax. ( schools are still in very bad educational shape), an occupational tax and then an addtional tax that is a fee according to your job title. If you are a lawyer you pay more than the housewife..but she still has to pay for her "job". At first glance you think the taxes aren't too bad but then you add up all of these little taxes and it gets out of hand. I also could never figure out how you pay taxes on property you own. I realize that they have to keep the county rolling but we have no local police, no paved roads where I live, volunteer fire fighters. Just makes you wonder doesn't it ?? Then if you only rent a place you pay less in taxes..does it pay to own anything..sometimes you wonder that too. Only in America ??!!

-- Helena (, April 29, 2002.

Several things to consider here. Yes Deborah, unequal taxes are a problem here. First of all remember that the top 5% or less of the poulation pays over 50% of the income tax in the US. By the time you get to the top 10% they acccount for over 80% of the income taxes paid in this country. The bottom about 20% pay ZERO, in fact they take money from the system in the form of Earned Income Credit. Where is the equality here??

Property taxes are very regressive. You are penalized for saving money and improving your property, while someone else who blows all their money and does not maintain their property is rewarded with lower taxes. Just because you take care of your property does not mean that you are rich and need to be taxed more than the lazy guy next door. Another beef about property taxes is that they support schools. Just because you worked hard and saved your money for years, why should you have to pay for kids going to school as if you were rich. The way money is spent in schools around here it is almost as bad as other government waste. All new buildings and equipment, but the constant whining we need more, more, more....

Flat tax, as Steve Forbes described it, would be best though. Each person gets a deduction of say $10,000. If you have a family of four you can make $40,000 before you pay a cent of tax.(I would love to have an income of $40,000, as would most readers of this forum, so we would not have to pay any tax, what is wrong with that???) After that tax would be 15%, no deductions for anything. Look at the simplicity. Anyone could fill out their own tax forms. But there is major opposition to this type of plan by lawyers, tax preparers, and many who have found little loopholes for themselves. They want the money not tax equity.

The problem will not change though, because if congress does not have the power to change taxes on a whim, it loses power. Enough said.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (, April 29, 2002.

Bob, something I don't understand about flat tax. You say no deductions over $40,000, flat 15%.

Sure, sounds very simple - for those with w2 forms, with a 'flat income'. :)

But what about the rest of us, self-employed, owner of a corporation, etc.?

How does the 'flat tax' work simply for those with expenses? A lot of farmers around me 'make' $500,000 a year - but they spend between $450,000 - 550,000 to do it!!!! How would the flat tax system change _anything_ for them? Taxes would be just as complicated for them, to figure out expenses from actual income.

Or, would you just want to tax 15% on the whole $500,000???? :) That would be fair. Not! :)

In other words, a flat tax would allow just as many loop-holes, and offer just as many tax shelters, and require just as much paperwork. It would only be different loopholes & paperwork, but not a better system. Right?


-- paul (, April 29, 2002.

The US never had an income tax until 1913. Before that, infrastructure was supported by user taxes, import levies, etc. Many countries in the world today collect no income tax, but support their governments by user taxes. This is one reason that gasoline is more than $5 a gallon in some countries in Europe. Of course, this allows one to choose the amount of tax that he is willing to pay, by simply choosing what, where, and how often to drive, or what goods to purchase or not purchase, etc. In this way, non-citizens also help to pay a share of the taxes whenever they purchase gasoline or other commodities within the country. I think this is a good idea. What irks me is that our country does all of the above and more. Our country imposes a punitive tax on those who work harder than others and happen to make more money.

I resent the fact that I have to pay a larger percentage in taxes simply because I choose to work harder than my neighbor, who does no work and lives off the system as much as possible. I also give to charity, but would be able to give much more, and direct the money to things that are important to me. Whenever I hear politicians vilifying the rich it makes me want to throw something at the radio.

Some folks think that a flat tax is the way to go, and I would tend to agree, except the way that politics works in this country, if we ever go to a flat tax, I'm betting we all end up paying more in taxes, not less, because the government rarely does anything that gives power back to the people without some strings attached. Besides, the average american pays less than fifteen percent of their actual gross income in income taxes right now, due to all of the writeoffs and such that go into the "Adjusted Gross income" calculation. Our government could operate just fine on a five percent flat tax of actual gross income, and the current sales and user taxes that are in place. They might actually make more money that way.

Off my soap box now, sorry for the rant, this is a touchy subject to bring up when I just had to write a check to the IRS for over $12,000 in additional taxes, simply because I worked real hard and actually showed a profit on the farm this year. Blood suckers.

-- chuck in md (, April 29, 2002.

Having a flat tax, no deductions for everybody (businesses too), would force people to be more frugal with their money, since it would make you look at every purchase, expense, and debt with an eye to whether it would pay for itself, and do you/your company good, instead of basing decisions on "I need a write-off this year".

Of course, there would probably have to be exceptions for health care, etc. but I bet if you stopped the mortgage deduction you'd have more people paying off their houses quicker.

-- GT (, April 29, 2002.

we are, for all intents and purposes, livestock being bred and harvested for taxes. at least those of us that pay. I think that's not what the Founders had in mind when they created for us a Republic. baaaaaaaaaa. baaaaaaaaaaaa

-- B. Led - Zone3 (, April 29, 2002.

Another joke is the "simplified tax code". If you rewrite it as a 1 page simple tax code, someone will whine about the farmers, someone else will whine about the minimum wage employees, yet someone else will whine for special treatment of single mothers. Pretty soon you've added pages 2,3,4,5....... to the new simplified tax code. Pretty simple, huh . Everybody wants change, yet no one is willing to give up preferential treatment when it is of benefit to them :>)

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (, April 29, 2002.

I too agree with the flat tax proposal. Although there are some disadvantages, as paul mentioned, it seems the most equatable solution for everyone. Anyone who making less than $40,000 in our country, with medical insurance premiums, state taxes, gas taxes, property taxes, etc. is truly just getting by. My wife and I make more than that, and have two kids. That is OUR choice; why should we get that child deduction (did I take it; heck yes!) because we chose to have children. Our property taxes are based on public schools in the area; should childless couples have to pay into it. They are forced to right now.

Law sez all of us stop at red lights, go to jail for murder (unless you got a GOOD lawyer, right? :^), and be married to one spouse. That should apply to everyone, rich or poor.

No deductions; no 'business lunches, no tax breaks on investments, just pay 15% of what you made. If you make $500,000 a year, $75,000 should be budgeted for taxes; it doesn't sound that hard. That is $425,000, plenty of money for budgeting.

-- j.r. guerra in s. tx. (, April 29, 2002.

Well, as far as school taxes, we were ALL children at one time (so someone paid it for us), and even childless couples (along with seniors--another group that sometimes asks not to pay school taxes) have gone to take classes at schools at one time or another (think community education, or satellite classes held at elementary or high schools so you don't have to drive 20+ miles to the nearest community college).

I would like to see levies based on property values banned. I would vote for them if they were say, $10 (or whatever uniform amount) per year per house/business, but not when one person pays $10 per year and another pays $500+ per year. That to me is wrong. And it is wrong to give school tax breaks to apartments--you can have 3 kids in an apartment just as easily as 3 kids in a home--both have the same effect on the school system.

-- GT (, April 29, 2002.

Hey, I'd gladly give up ALL the so called benefits that taxes pay for if I could give up paying taxes, ALL TAXES. Know that will never be offered though, too many people addicted to suckling at Uncle Sam's teats.

By way property tax came from a time before income and sales taxes when money was harder to come by and ability to pay for government was considered to be fairly paid by those who owned the most productive land, the most land, and the fancy houses. There was even a personal property tax on luxuries in some areas. In lieu of paying money you could alternatively work it out on a road crew or something simular.

Here recently in my area of Arkansas, one elderly couple with many medical problems had their house sold out from under them for non payment of taxes. Lawyers bought it cheap. The couple say they had no idea the law had been changed to only allow 2 years to pay or forfeit property and further that they had not been notified of a pending auction sale. The lawyers who bought it cheap will sell it back for full appraised value or they want property vacated. This is just low down mean since this couple worked all their lives but not uncommon. We need a law simular to Texas where property can not be taken for back taxes while owner lives there, but where taxes can only be collected forcably with interest when house is sold or when owner dies and property is probated. Better to do away with property tax altogether, but every time such a proposed amendment gets far beyond enough signitures to get on ballot here, some judge throws it out on some invented technicality. Scares politicians sh__less.

-- Hermitjohn (, April 29, 2002.

Just when we got to the point where we would pay no income tax, we moved to Washington & now pay sales & property tax. Just can't win!

-- Bonnie (, April 29, 2002.

Hi, everyone, well I see a lot of whinin, bellyachin, etc., but have you checked the site that Layne put up? I bet you learn something positive there! Whats right - is right. and we all know that not much is right with our system!!

-- Dick Tracy (, May 01, 2002.

Folks in this country have known for eons that the income tax is illegal. The problem is they don't have the cajones to band together and do something about it.

-- ~Rogo (, May 01, 2002.

Yup Rogo, yer right. A buddy of mine just got outta the slammer after four years for having the temerity to challenge the legality of the income tax. Does any really think any federal judge is gonna rule in opposition to it?

-- john (, May 01, 2002.

Woa--hold the horses and be still my fainting heart. Chuck, no farm in the USA should show a profit !!! You have to learn to measure your topsoil ! The depreciation on a farm outwieghs the minimal profit a hundred to one. Sharpen that pencil son and learn the tricks of the trade !

-- Joel Rosen (, May 01, 2002.

i think steve forbes idea of a flat tax was a good one

-- js (, May 02, 2002.

The property and school taxes are most interesting. According to the propaganda in the us constitution, americans have the right to private property. Yet, the govt. taxes americans each year on their private property in the form of school and property taxes. If you dont or cant pay your property and school taxes the govt will take your land and house away from you even though you already bought and paid for it.Therefore there really isnt private property in the usa. All the property is owned by the govt. and americans rent their homes and land from the govt. The rent being property and school taxes. If you figure out the monthly school and property taxes that you pay to the good for nothing out of control govt. you will understand that property taxes and school taxes are not really taxes they are RENT!!!! The usa is just like a commie country all property is owned by the state.Shame on the usa!!!

-- hector g (, May 02, 2002.

You don't have to pay income tax unless you are a federal employee, live in the District of Columbia and a few other places that I don't remember. Follow and read the links if you want to educate yourself and stop paying income tax.

-- jdm (, May 29, 2002.

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