Quote for the times - war and it's manipulation by the gubment

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"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." -Julius Caesar

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), April 27, 2002

Answers

Hmmmmm..................

-- Lou (xnycowboy@aol.com), April 27, 2002.

Interesting quote, our anti terror law just got sent back for a major rewrite to protect rights,....just about the same time that fever pitch had quieted down.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), April 27, 2002.

Its a gem of a quote. I was just wondering where you found it and if you happen to know please relate when did he say it and under what circumstances?

-- HermitJOhn (hermit@hilltop_homestead.zzn.com), April 27, 2002.

No one had to whip me into any kind of "Patriotic Fervor" after the USS Cole or September 11th!! I was ready then to pave the whole friggin' Arab Middle East and I'm ready now! With "kids" in the special forces and right in the middle of things I'd gladly go over there and give 'em a hand! LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), April 27, 2002.

So why don't you go over there, LQ?

The whole "patriotic" noisemaker routine makes me want to puke. And the flag thing -- I think the American flag has replaced the red corvette. The new corollary is: the bigger the flag, the smaller the pole.

THINK about what desperation leads to suicidal acts. THINK about what causes such desperation. Remove the causes of desperation and you will eliminate the suicidal acts. Demonize any group of people and it is so easy to kill them. Pick an enemy, pick a holocaust: Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Muslims, Armenians, Native Americans, Afghans, Iraqis, Iranians, Arabs, Cambodians, Philippinos, Japanese, Chinese, Tibetans, Tamils, Singhalese, Tutsis, Hutus....on and on and on and on and on.

If you've got a brain, use it, and follow the money. And if you can't be bothered to think, but only want to hate in the name of "patriotism", by all means, jump on the next flight to the frontline -- if you can find it. It's not a simple battle,this. But maybe you can find a nice evil target to shoot, some other mother's son to kill. Maybe you can find a bullet to stop.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), April 27, 2002.



Not hate, just survival. Do you have an answer why? I don't and I don't care. If some idiot so-called religion is hell bent on wiping out anyone who is a US citizen regardless of our religious affiliation (and I for one don't have any!)then I am all for defending myself and my family, my neighbors, my town and my country. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...but do it first. I didn't have a quarrel in the world with those goat humpers until they started attacking our people overseas and then brought it here. Don't expect me to feel sorry for them. If there are people over there who don't agree with their governments position and are caught in the middle it is up to them to overthrow the sheiks, religious mullahs and all that garbage etc who do run it and get thier act together. Survival is survival and lets face it, we are targeted for extinction. I can and do read, and I take the trouble to read up on the so called "news" that is handed out to those sheep over there. Until you see for yourself what is put out for the masses and taught to the children over there, and by countries we call "allies" you haven't a clue. Not that I think they can do it, we have the guts after all to stick up for ourselves unlike those subjugated peoples over there. And no, I can't go, I've sent my two sons while I'm here caring for housebound hubby. So, I think I've done MY part. Are you prepared to learn Arabic? Not me! LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), April 27, 2002.

war is war is war. and we have every right to protect ourselves. but i don't think we have the right to label everyone in the middle east as out to get the US (although many are). i support our war (the US's), and i will, until it shows itself to be a war of pure hate, which the government is trying to avoid. it is an honorable thing to stop the terrorist movement. buy stopping it now, think of the lives that will be saved in the future. btw, it's not like they are the only ones dying!!!!! our soldiers are dying too!! maybe not nearly as many, but just think of how many THOUSANDS who died in the 9-11 attacks. if anyone thinks that our war on terror is not justified, they have no right to even think. terrorism is real, thousands of ppl died in those attacks, and two of my relatives came close to dying that day. say that we are out at war because we label on the whole is not true. we are at war to protect our country, yes even many more nations are being kept safe from future attacks, and we are avenging the deaths of civilians, citizens, family members, friends, children, parents, and lovers.

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.com), April 27, 2002.

Gee, LQ, sounds to me like you're trying to help Snoozy make the point. I would say that calling an entire subsection of the human race "GOAT HUMPERS!!!" is as quick a way to Demonize them as any....as to the sheep and the pablum they are spoonfed as news....that sounds a whole lot like Americaland to me.

-- gilly (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), April 27, 2002.

Give me a break! Their news is wrong but the news put out to the sheep here is right? It's obviously worked on you!

"Idiot so-called religion"? The same can be said about any religion that exists. Yes even yours. The God you pray to hasn't been proven to exist anymore than theirs. Amazing how your chosen religion is right but any other is wrong, yet if they claim the same thing then they are idiots! Your god exists but theirs doesn't! The hypocrisy of that is amazing!

They are 'goat humpers' but here in good old America the internet is full of pictures of actual Americans screwing goats and anything else they can and half those people probably go to church on Sunday. The irony and delusion you portray is sickening!!

How in the world do you truly know who is responsible for those attacks you are talking about? I guess the good ole USA government would never lie to it's people huh?

They're "subjagated" but the American people aren't in any shape or form? We pay much more in tax than they do, in whole have just as little freedoms as they do yet they're oppressed and we're not? The amount of propaganda you've soaked your brain with is amazing!

If you think this whole matter isn't about oil, the same reason we were in Iraq, Bosnia, Sudan, Somalia and anywhere else in that region, then you are just as deluded as who you claim the 'enemy' is. This "war on terror" going on doesn't have a damn thing to do with freedom of Americans or anyone else in this world.

-- notbrainwashed (doesnt@matter.com), April 27, 2002.


dear notbrainwashed:

i do terribly beg your pardon, but the God i pray to does exist and it has been proven many times throughout my life and others. i see His effects, i see His workings in my lfe, and others have seen it in theirs. You may not be able to see Him but you can see the effects. it is so with the wind. you can't see it but you see what it does. do you really think that such a creation so amazing as this is a mere accident? and our planet happens to be placed in the most stable galaxy in the universe, by accident? you wouldn't walk along the beach, find a swiss watch and look at all of it's craftmanship and see how well is works and say "what a great accident!!!!" i beg your pardon, please do not say my God does not exist. for your 411, the Islam prayers begin with saying "our God is greater than your God." ppl think that allah and the christian God are the same. they are not. i have nothing against those who choose to follow Islam, that is their choice. however, i DO have a thing against ppl who threaten my life and safety.

also, LQ never said what her religion was and that was pretty judgemental and biased of you to assume she was of the christian religion. you assumed that because she was mad at the muslims and stated that she wanted to trample them all,that she was a christian. i am offended by that, as i am sure that she is too. please don't throw christians into one pot of self-righteous "brainwashed" narrow- minded idiots. that is not an accurate portrayal of the christian religion. ppl have received that notion of christians because of legalists, who are trying to work their way to God on their own terms, not accepting the salvation of Jesus Christ which is freely offered. legalists are not wanting the forgiveness of sins. furthermore, i am NOT brainwashed. i made the decision to put my faith and trust in God, to rely soley on Christ for my salvation, purely on the basis of God calling me to Himself. part of the process was God having me think through the christian religion, weighing the facts, thinking, examining. and i find it to be pure, accurate, adn amazing. btw, every day the Bible is backed up more and more by archaeological findings. in the Bible, God rained down "fired and brimestone" on Sodom and Gomorrah. the Dead sea is where sodom adn gomorrah are believed to be. buried under sane. one sand mountain is named mount sodom. and everywhere around there are balls of sulfur.

cheers, -C

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.com), April 27, 2002.



plus LQ said she didn't have any religious affiliation

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.com), April 27, 2002.

notbrainwashed,

that was one of the most odious and arrogant displays of ignorance I've seen today. bunny, quickly running out for a smaller flag. :-0

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), April 27, 2002.


I don't see where I mentioned the word christian. What you're saying about your Christian God is the same thing the Islamics say about Allah isn't it? So it's ok for you to say Allah doesn't exist but you can't accept anyone saying that about your God. They say their God is greater but you say they are wrong and it's your God who is greater?

It's ok for Americans to threaten the lives of innocent middle easterners but not ok for some of those to do the same after we start dropping bombs on them?

It's ok to say let's kill them all- man woman and child, nuke em, turn their nation into a parking lot but not ok if they say those things about us?

I'm just trying to get this straight since the irony is a bit much for me to see through.

Religion is such an emotional issue for the average person. What a convenient matter to consume the people with, go straight for the heart and keep them distracted from what's really happening. Wonder why it was a non-issue until the propaganda started pouring out. Wonder why nobody cared about the middle east until they were proclaimed to be the enemy. The poster child for hate- Bin Laden was put into power by who? Do you know? Did you ever look past the hype? Can you say with complete certainty who crashed those planes on September 11? Did you even question those things or did you just take full faith what you were told because the moment was so extreme? Who will the enemy be next?

-- notbrainwashed (doesnt@matter.com), April 27, 2002.


Chuck really? I thought it was the 2nd. What LQ said being the 1st.

-- notbrainwashed (doesnt@matter.com), April 27, 2002.

touche.

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), April 27, 2002.


the propaganda for the war on terrorism is actually minute compared to the propaganda for other wars (namely WWII). i have hardly seen any for this war...and any that i have seen have been in commercial form (i.e. "you smoke weed, you support terror"). no rosie the riviter yet. i think that the only propaganda neccessary for this war are the pictures of 9-11. seeing the two towers falling and the pentagon burning...and knowing my family members were inside is plenty for me, and i think, for most of america.

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.com), April 27, 2002.

hmm, maybe they've honed their skills in the last half century? After several wars and other conflicts? After marketing and advertising has become one of the biggest businesses in the world? After they have such a compelling tool as television? If they can sell you on Coca Cola, why not war? Our direct involvement in WW2 was not supported by the majority of the American public until Pearl Harbor. You know that right? And by the way, have you seen some of the facts coming to light half a century later over that incident? Would it be impossible that they took a page or two from that book?

Judging by how quick and easy the "Terror Bill" was passed, new bureaucracies opened and more American rights infringed on without many questioning, all the while being cheerlead on by most of the people, I have to wonder.

-- justanotherview (doesnt@matter.com), April 27, 2002.


My, my, my, just look at the controversy here. They fight with such passion ! What did Bin Laden call us ? Infidels ? And our best response is "goat-humpers" ? I guess Caeser was correct--while the masses whip themselves into a frenzy their freedoms are taken without firing a shot !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), April 27, 2002.

What did Bin Laden call us back when we used to give him our tax money and supply him with arms and equipment? Or Saddam for that matter, or Noriega and on and on and on. How quickly we forget when we're occupied with fear and hate and whatever else they can feed us.

-- justanotherview (doesnt@matter.com), April 27, 2002.

Hey, C.(punk?), actually, each prayer in Islam begins with "In the name of Allah, the Merciful and Beneficent:" -- not 'My God is greater than your God.' You are perhaps thinking of the statement "La illaha il allah" which is "There is no God but God". This statement is also called the qalma, and is a basic declaration of the monotheism of Islam, which came into being in a place and time of great polytheism, idol worship and such. And "Allah" simply means "God". It is not a name, like Jesus or Muhammad.

And actually, LQ, I have lived in Pakistan and am fluent in the Urdu language, so I do know quite a bit about at least that "so-called ally" as you so scornfully put it. Perhaps if Americans were more prepared to learn other languages, we might not have been taken by surprise. Anyway, in my travels throughout the world, I have found that citizens of other countries know much more about us, than we do of them. Some do have misconceptions about us, but I would say that we have just as many misconceptions about other people and cultures -- and we don't have the excuse of illiteracy, or lack of access to books & information.

Notbrainwashed: Well said! -- nice to know there are others of us out there who get it.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), April 27, 2002.


Well, well, well. Doesn't this all sound like some of the revelations are coming to past. The revelations that was writtin some 2000 years ago. Who could form such a book that would come true 2000 years later but by some very intelligent force. Prophecies that are written 2000 years ago are coming into being. Israel will be hated by all nations until the end of times! Visions of giant locust that will come to kill and destroy! If you was alive 2000years ago and seen a vision of a helicoptor that kills and destroyes what would you describe it as? Nations will be against nations!

Also, what who would you rather believe was your ancestors. Adam and Eve that was made by a superior being, or a stupid monkey that slowly developed from slimmy jelly fish?

-- r.h. in okla. (rhays@sstelco.com), April 28, 2002.


If our nation is so threatened by "terrorists", why don't they just close the borders immediately, expel all non-citizens, bring our ships and military back home, bring our factories back home? Why do I, an American citizen have to lose more of my rights and privacy, as is been happening for a long time already.

Atrocities and inhumanities go on in many parts of the world. How come we don't get involved in the ones where there's no money involved or resources to be exploited? We didn't care about the Taliban oppressing their people until it came time we needed to put a pipeline through their nation. We helped put them in power years ago when they acted in our interests. When they refused the deal we put on the table back in early 2001, we made plans for war, months before September 11. The facts are all there if you go looking for them.

Does our government act in the best interest of the people, the American people or the best interest of multinational corporations?

Has the average Americans quality of life really improved over the last 30 years with all the progress we hear about and all the rising taxes we pay? In adjusted terms are we as a whole making more money, in less debt, living in better conditions, having more free time to enjoy life outside of employment? Has the quality of life in relation to families, crime, morality improved? Aren't some of the factors involved in that decline easily controlled, like violence and depravity in television, movies and video games? Yet, why are those things promoted instead?

Why is our military spread out all over the world anyway? Are they protecting the American people or something else? We have plenty of defense systems, missles and aircraft to protect our own airspace from any threat possible from any other nation. We have enough military to put a soldier within eyesight of another along every mile of our border. Enough ships to do the same in our waters.

I think many answers can be found in like it's said, follow the money and you will find the smoking gun.

-- consider this (no@no.no), April 28, 2002.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1559000/1559 151.stm

BusinessWeek Online: BW Magazine http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/toc/02_18/B3781govern.htm

Click here: The Case for Sedition: High Crimes of the Bush Cabal (Part 1), by Al Martin http://www.almartinraw.com/column54.html

-- BC (katnip364@aol.com), April 28, 2002.


snoozy--

i was told this by a person who lived there and studies islam.

:)

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.com), April 28, 2002.


Oh boy! A really good discussion! i love it! LOL It is good for us to go toe to toe! Don't you think so? I would like to throw in another thing. A member of our family is Arabic. He married my cousin and the two of them along with a son escaped from that armpit of the Earth over there a number of years ago and came back to the USA. The term Goat Humpers is a "cleaned up" version of what HE called the Arabs over there who support both with money and cheers, those that advocate the wiping out of anything and anyone who is not the fruit of Islam and who do not practice their form of worship. We get the translations from Al Jezzera amd many other forms of broadcasts over there. So, I know what those people are teaching their children, and calling for their citizens to do. We threaten their form of life. We do not bow down and kiss the feet of the Mullahs, women here don't live like chattle and this is a threat to the way they live and believe. Now, don't get me wrong here. I am not saying we are right and they are wrong. In the great scheme of things, who knows? I am saying though, that I haven't an ounce of compassion for a group of people who's agenda is to wipe us off the face of the Earth and they don't even stand up on their hind legs to do it! They smile at us, shake our hands, nod and make nice and all the time they are planning the next strike and teaching their children how to hate us. So, yes, Pave the whole friggin place, make it a parking lot for B-52's or whatever and stop pussing footin' around! This is fun! LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), April 28, 2002.

heck yeah LQ! women over in the middle east are treated like the scum of the earth. yet there are people who are defending that..."let them be" "who are you to say that's wrong?" i find it amazing that as a society where women are becoming empowered, many are willing to over look the abuse that goes on in the middle east and are just fine with it, because "that's their way of life." there has to be some moral standard in this world, and it doesn't begin with death, it begins with common courtesy to every human, no matter the gender or race. that is why we have a concience, yet so many ppl in america are willing to throw their conciences away so that they can be "tolerant" and not "offend anyone." a peaceful society doesn't happen when you ignore problems, looking them over, or pushing them aside. it begins with taking care of the problems, reacting to them, and instituting justice. of course this isn't a perfect world, it will never be perfect, but we can do all we can, by the grace of God to make it a better place.

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.coom), April 28, 2002.

it sounds like LQs answer to taking care of the problems is just kill them all. With talk like that no wonder people have a problem with Americans. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Condemning them for saying the same exact thing you preach.

I guess in your revised history lessons women here in America have always been treated with equality? So some other nations are a hundred years behind us in those things. Kill them all for that? Funny how hardly nobody cared about womens equality over there until you were fed a bunch of propaganda to hate them for that and anything else the powers that be can come up with.

LQ, you said, "They smile at us, shake our hands, nod and make nice and all the time they are planning the next strike and teaching their children how to hate us."

Didn't our corporate interests invade their land, smile in their face and make nice while they tried to exploit their natural resources? While they tried to steal them for next to nothing? Isn't what you're promoting also hate? Or is it only hate when that junk you're saying is directed towards Americans.

I'm not aware of any invasion by middle easterners here in the US. Last I heard they didn't have ships stationed along our shores. Last I heard they didn't try to strongarm our resources and use of our land with military power. I can almost guarantee you that if the Taliban would not have resisted our multinational interests building a pipeline there, none of this would be happening. September 11 would have never happened. Many knew what was coming on 9/11 yet they remained silent. Wonder why? It's evident by some of the options action and shortselling in the markets leading up to that day. There are investigations going on into that, of Americans and American owned corportations but of course it won't be front page news and in the end it'll go nowhere. And nobody cares because having an enemy to hate is more exciting for the status-quo.

Translations of their news? LOL! Translated by who? Sorry LQ but you just don't get it. Try turning off CNN et al and use your brain to think for yourself sometime. I'm done responding to your sheeple bleating.

-- justanotherview (doesnt@matter.com), April 28, 2002.


Well, LQ, I'm glad you're having fun. If you were black and you called a brother "nigger", that would be kosher, (pardon the mixed race metaphors) and if you were Arab and you called a fellow Arab "goat humper", I guess that could fly. If you want to call me soda cracker honkie, I don't mind....but what you did was inexcusable, I don't care who married whom. As for your chauvinistic attitude, I don't feel inclined to stroke your ego by arguing rationally with a B-52 parking lot attendant.

-- gilly (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), April 28, 2002.

Snoozy and Not: right on!! Im backing you guys, your words ring true. I think the main point is thus (and from either side): Beware any religion, government, or anyone in particular, the preaches/ acts out hate. Terrorism is hate. Revenge is hate. We are both wrong.

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), April 28, 2002.

This is the first time I don't feeel all alone in my little corner of the world! Since the 'war on terrorism' began my family has been sickened by the events that have unfolded. We thought we were alone as the pro american, kick-a** rhetoric rolled along. We were shocked by the speed with which this act snowballed. We wondered at how conveniant it all seemed that our government seemed ready to jump in. We were heartbroken by the hatred all arund us.

Since this has become a somewhat religous debate, and since this is largely a Christian society we are currently living in (I know not all but the majority of America): doesn't that God teach "turn the other cheak"? "vengance is mine sayeth the lord"? Don't give me the eye for an eye one either. That was handed down by Moses to the people for how to deal with 'their own', their neighbors and such. So much for christian love and compassion. The bible teaches too that women are a possession of their husbands. And slavery was not denounced in the bible either, hence it (the bible)was used to uphold slavery for centuries.

You mention Islamics wanting to destroy all those that aren't like them. Hmmm, would that be anything like Americans dragging blacks from their homes across an ocean to be forced into slavery? Or like rounding up Native American children and forcing them into white schools and churches, literally beating them if they should so much speak a native word or pray to their god? No, it was not our generation, but it was not that terribly long ago. We aren't all we like to think we are sometimes, either!

If America, did not have it's big fat nose in other countries business in the first place,(our big companies, our armies, our missionaries etc all trying to tell every country that the western way is the only way and everything else is backward) they would not be so angry with us, would not feel bullied, would not have a reason to hate us, and would not teach these things to there kids. If you still had young children at home, obviously you would be teaching them to hate all "goat-humpers" the way you do, with all your enthusiasm.

If you did have, let's say, 15 year old boy at home. And you maybe did not purposelly teach him to hate but he heard your enphatic commentary on the subject. He isn't old enough to take his learned hate overseas but maybe, he thinks, he can make it safer 'on the home front' for his family by taking out that dark skinned kid at school? Indian, pakistani, Iranian? He didn't know(or care) he was dark and had some other religion so he must be part of the problem right? Or just a stranger hated for some American ideal confronted by a murder? You may say that is extreme. And true, I haven't heard of anyone here being killed, but many were detained, lost jobs and were harassed across our country simply because they were considered possible threats simply because they had the wrong colored skin and prayed to the wrong God!

I will end here and emphatically agree with the previous posts of snoozy and another point of veiw above.

-- Novina in ND (homespun@stellarnet.com), April 29, 2002.


Here is how one of LQ's postings looks if you flip it:

Oh boy! A really good discussion! i love it! LOL It is good for us to go toe to toe! Don't you think so? I would like to throw in another thing. A member of our family is [American]. He married my cousin and the two of them along with a son escaped from that armpit of the Earth over there a number of years ago and came back to the USA. The term [Fornicating Infidels] is a "cleaned up" version of what HE called the Americans over there who support both with money and cheers, those that advocate the wiping out of anything and anyone who is not the fruit of [Capitalism/Consumption] and who do not practice their form of worship. We get the translations from [CNN] amd many other forms of broadcasts over there. So, I know what those people are teaching their children, and calling for their citizens to do. We threaten their form of life. We do not bow down and kiss the feet of the [Corporations], women here don't live like [whores] and this is a threat to the way they live and believe. Now, don't get me wrong here. I am not saying we are right and they are wrong. In the great scheme of things, who knows? I am saying though, that I haven't an ounce of compassion for a group of people who's agenda is to wipe us off the face of the Earth and they don't even [get out of their FUVs] to do it! They smile at us, shake our hands, nod and make nice and all the time they are planning the next [strike/pipeline/sweatshop] and teaching their children how to hate us. So, yes, [level] the whole friggin place, make it a parking lot for [camels] or whatever and stop pussing footin' around! This is fun! LQ

How's that look? Pretty ugly, isn't it?

C.(punk?):Perhaps your friend is speaking of the phrase "Allahu-Akbar" which is the first line of the call to prayers. That is "God is great". Not 'Our God is better than yours'. God is great. Now isn't that exactly what you said to Notbrainwashed in your first posting on this thread? Seems like there are actually things you can agree on with Muslims.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), April 29, 2002.


Whoops -- I missed a spot: in the third line, it should say "and came back to [the Muslim world]."

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), April 29, 2002.

All of you who hate this country and our form of government, however imperfect----thank your stars you have the freedom to SAY those things without being arrested. And....may I send you a ticket to join Alec Baldwin in his move overseas, should he ever have the gumption to follow through with his threat? I would add that sometimes a "patriotic fervor" is needed, to help one gather courage for diificult times ahead. ~~Julie in OK~~

-- Julie (okwilk213@juno.com), April 29, 2002.

To criticize is not to hate, Julie in OK. Those of us who continually demand that our government improve its performance and its policies, are in fact exercising our right to free speech, for if we do not exercise that right, what's the point in having it? It atrophies with disuse. Our dearly appointed Attorney General seeks to intimidate the exercise of our right to free speech by saying "If you aren't with us, you're against us." You yourself are saying that if we criticize ("hate") our country & form of government, we can just leave and you'll buy us a ticket. Very generous of your pocketbook but not your heart or mind. You do acknowledge that the US is imperfect -- on this we all agree. If people do not discuss these imperfections, how will this country improve? How will we limit the natural tendency of those with power & money to corner the market on power & wealth? How will we prevent them from steamrolling their agenda by attenuating our rights, (about which you are so proud, except when someone whose views you don't agree with exercises them)?

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), April 29, 2002.

novina in nd, "The bible teaches too that women are a possession of their husbands. And slavery was not denounced in the bible either, hence it (the bible)was used to uphold slavery for centuries."

women are not a possession of their husbands, they are under subjection to them as the husband is the head of the family. the reason for this is that adam was created first, then eve, and she was created to be a helper to him. adam's responsibility is to take care of his family and eve was to be a support and raise the children along side him. Jesus elevated women. that was one reason Jesus was hated so much in His time. the most honorable place for a women, the bible says, is raising her children. you can have more influence in your children's life than one could ever as a president. you shape them, mold them, teach them, instill values and ideas. the government runs a country, not individual personalities. there may be roles in our lives, but in the eyes of God, men and women are of equal value!! that is why Jesus elevated women! men cannot survive without women, that is why we were created. they could not survive without our help. likewise, we would be in a pretty poor state if we have no men to lead and help us. that is not to say women can't be leaders. many women are born with that gift. and there are many many many ways to use it!

as to slavery and the bible, it was used to uphold slavery because verses were taken out of context--which is a big mistake.

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.com), April 29, 2002.


C.(punk?) -- You have just stated the exact position of women in fundamentalist Islam.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), April 29, 2002.

really? that's nice. too bad they believe that it's ok for them to be beaten and bruised because their religion says nothing against it. too bad their husbands and male relatives treat them like their worthless, use and abuse them. the bible does not tolerate the abuse of women. men are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the church. that is the utmost love. it is laying down you life for others, vs. taking their lives because they went out in public by themselves.

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.com), April 29, 2002.

also, muslim women cannot show leadership of any kind. women in the christian church can. they can be part of ministries, i.e. encouragement ministries, nursery, teaching sunday school, and many other ministries. no, don't tell me that is the exact postition of fundamentalist islamic women. muslims don't even recognize Jesus as the Son of God. yet another reason it is not their exact view.

-- C (punk_chicadee@yahoo.com), April 29, 2002.

Every shelter for battered women in this country is full of Christian women from Christian homes -- though certainly their husbands are not emulating Jesus, yet many will claim it is their right under the scriptures. You won't find me defending such behaviour anywhere it goes on -- but I do wish to point out that it does go on everywhere.

And no, Muslims do not accept Jesus as the son of God -- another way Islam makes its statement of monotheism. They say, God is great and has no need of godlets or begetting. They do accept Jesus and Moses as prophets, equal to Muhammad, and that all were chosen by God to get the people back on track from their deviation from pious ways. However they do hold Muhammad to be the last prophet, much as you seem to think that Jesus is the last word.

As for women in positions of leadership, I am most familiar with Pakistan, and as you probably know, Pakistan had a democratically elected woman prime minister. She even had a baby while in office. We in the US have yet to even elect a woman vice pres. Bangladesh has had one woman prime minister, or is it two already? I am not familiar with the Arab world, so I do not know of other instances in Arab countries. Did you know that Pakistani women have had full sufferage since the founding of the country in 1947, whereas France, land of liberte, egalite and the second great Revolution, did not give women the vote until after WWII?! (Switzerland was something really absurd, like 1970 or something.)

Of course, having rights on paper doesn't always mean being able to exercise them, but it is a start. When Islam was founded, it codified exactly what rights of inheritance a woman had. That was back in AD 632 or so, when the Christian world was in the Dark Ages, and women had ZERO rights delineated in law. We have come a long way since then, but we still have very unequal status. Often it is a hidden, insidious kind of inequality. We go tripping along merrily thinking we've come so far, and then injustice rears its ugly head. Islam has a problem in that because the Quran is a revealed scripture, believed to have been spoken to/through Muhammad by God himself, it is immutable and eternally correct and cannot be changed to suit the times. Times have changed -- but to change Islamic laws would be to say that what is in the Quran is NOT perfect...So for this reason, the status of women has not improved much since then. But still there is in practice a greater range of lifestyles than what the terrorist Crusader-types think & would have you think.

Because in Islam there is not supposed to be anyone between the believer and God, there really isn't the hierarchy of clergy such as there is in Christianity. If someone is called a maulvi, it is because they are considered to be knowledgeable in Islamic teachings, learned, well-read. (The Shia's with their Imams are a bit different.) It's not like in the established Christian sects where you have a whole chain-of-command with popes and cardinals and bishops and diocese and all these appointed posts I don't even know about. And in most Christian sects, women, if they are allowed to be full clergy, had to fight for it tooth and nail. But it sounds like you accept the idea that men are supposed to have the top positions and women are to be help-meets, so again you have found a basis for understanding of Islamic views.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), May 02, 2002.


Oh, yeah -- I forgot to mention, along with rights of inheritence, women's right to divorce and their rights in marriage were also promulgated. That was 632AD, C. Now, I'm not saying they got equal rights, just that Islam gave them rights 14 CENTURIES ahead of the western world.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), May 02, 2002.

Snoozy, thanks so much for trying to educate people who have no clue about these things. I wish more would look at these things in a rational and realistic manner without prejudice. Let's hope at least some will be helped by your comments. Thank you.

-- justanotherview (doesnt@matter.com), May 02, 2002.

Snoozy, thank you for your words on Islam although I suspect many will doubt or poo-hoo much of what you write you may be assured that I am not one of them.

My personal experiences of Islamic countries is limited to brief visits to Pakistan, Egypt and Afghanistan (under the Taleban), a number of visits to each country.

One thing that makes me quite uncomfortable in Pakistan is the way many western men look at women when the women obviously do not appreciate being looked over. It gives me a creepy feeling akin to 'raping with their eyes'. Much has been made of the wearing of the burqua and I detest the idea of it being compulsory but I am almost equally angry at the suggestions that this is the most serious problem women face in Afghanistan.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), May 02, 2002.


John, it certainly gets to you after awhile -- the looking. When I first went ot Pakistan 23 years ago, foreigners were VERY rare there, and so they would get a LOT of attention. But the fact is, everybody looks at everybody there. Men & women both look at the foreign women, at Pakistani women, at men, at cows, at cars... There is not a whole lot to do there, so if there is something new or different on the horizon, it gets attention. It is not nearly as bad as it was. You have to keep not making eye contact, and that gets tedious after awhile. You can conquer a guy with one direct glance -- the eyes are very powerful (It must be love!..) Sometimes, if somebody just can't stop looking, I would ask in Urdu, "Have you never seen another human being before?" Then they would realize that they were staring, and would be embarassed and stop. Also, by speaking in Urdu, suddenly I was no longer an alien specimen from another planet, but a person. Another good reason to learn foreign languages. And when you are with Pakistani friends, you have context, and you are thus more intelligible. But that is one of the things that used to get to me, the looking. Perhaps people from the subcontinent feel invisible here, because, at least on the west coast, nobody looks at anyone. We're all steelies in a bucket.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), May 02, 2002.

snoozy........yes, the looking!! I have experienced that often in Haiti........especially up in the mountains. Once on the way home from a far village where we did a field clinic, we were stopped for some time because of an accident on what they called a road. A WHOLE village stood around and stared at me for over two hours. Very disconcerting. The little children all wanted to touch me, I don't think they had seen many white women before.

I certainly don't have any wisdom on the war thing. Personally I think it is not the way to solve anything, but very few people ever listen to a person like me, so mostly I just try to remain quiet in the storm.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), May 02, 2002.


-- C (punk), you said it all: " if anyone thinks that our war on terror is not justified, they have no right to even think." Just be stoopid, be mindless, follow the leader. Duh. BTW, YOU are the first one to mention Christianity on this post, not notbrainwashed. I for one, however, do suspect that Quaker is a Christian, as she exhibits many of its prejudices, alas. E.g. "goat humper". Quaker, can you settle this? Which "god" is your god?

To those of you who think Muslims are "goat humpers", I hope that you are reincarnated as goats!

Snoozy, not, justa, john in NZ, it's nice to hear some reasoned statements here. Thanks to all of you, and anyone else whom I may have overlooked.

It also just occurred to me that there are basically two sides to this argument. Almost all the folks on one side know how to spell. Almost all the folks on the other side don't. Can there be some sort of connection? Maybe the one side has never bothered to read very much, and thus never polished their spelling skills? Or perhaps there is something else happening. rh, you say, "who would you rather believe was your ancestors. Adam and Eve that was made by a superior being, or a stupid monkey that slowly developed from slimmy jelly fish? " I guess I'd RATHER believe my ancestors were Adam and Eve. However, I have trouble knowingly deceiving myself like that. It's pretty obvious to those of us who are NOT brainwashed, that we are indeed primates, and are descendants of other primates. So sorry.

Quacker, I don't have anything nice to say about YOUR responses. sheesh.

Are you guys aware of King George Strangelove's foreknowledge of the 911 attacks?

-- C (punk), you said it all: " if anyone thinks that our war on terror is not justified, they have no right to even think." Just be stoopid, be mindless, follow the leader. Duh. BTW, YOU are the first one to mention Christianity on this post, not notbrainwashed. I for one, however, do suspect that Quaker is a Christian, as she exhibits many of its prejudices, alas. E.g. "goat humper". Quaker, can you settle this? Which "god" is your god?

Snoozy, not, justa, john in NZ, it's nice to hear some reasoned statements here. Thanks to all of you, and anyone else whom I may have overlooked.

It also just occurred to me that there are basically two sides to this argument. Almost all the folks on one side know how to spell. Almost all the folks on the other side don't. Can there be some sort of connection? Maybe the one side has never bothered to read very much, and thus never polished their spelling skills? Or perhaps there is something else happening. rh, you say, "who would you rather believe was your ancestors. Adam and Eve that was made by a superior being, or a stupid monkey that slowly developed from slimmy jelly fish? " I guess I'd RATHER believe my ancestors were Adam and Eve. However, I have trouble knowingly deceiving myself like that. It's pretty obvious to those of us who are NOT brainwashed, that we are indeed primates, and are descendants of other primates. So sorry.

Quacker, I don't have anything nice to say about YOUR responses. sheesh.

Are you guys aware of King George Strangelove's foreknowledge of the 911 attacks?

Justa, not, snoozy, etc, thanks for the wise statements; it was very refreshing.

For the various Jingoes who think Muslims are "goat humpers", I wish for you to be reborn as goats!

-- joj (joj@home.org), May 02, 2002.


Aaaah! Did I fail to express what I intended by mentioning unwelcome 'looking'?

I am not at all upset by local people (of whatever culture) staring at me as I expect that being a stranger, I am however uncomfortable when I see fellow visitors abusing there position as guests by perving on the local womenfolk.

Snoozy, do you have any "Nazaradeen stories" to share?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), May 02, 2002.


john, I wasn't upset with the looking........just didn't know if maybe I should break in to a song and a dance ;>)

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), May 02, 2002.

John, WHAT western men?! I never saw very many of those critters about! But then I tend to not hang out with other foreigners when I travel.

Most of my books are packed up in boxes as we are still a construction site, but I did find a small book of aphorisms of Muhammad's, published in Madras (Chennai) India. People should know that Muslims consider that Muhammad was the closest man can get to behaving the way God wants, thus the more they emulate his behaviour, the better person they are. So his life and sayings are very important guideposts in how to be a good Muslim.

"The best Jihad is his who speaks a just word before a tyrannical authority." (Joel, that makes you a mujahid.)

"It is better to teach knowledge one hour in the night, than to pray the whole night."

"To listen to the words of the learned, and to instill into others the lessons of science, are better than religious exercises."

"The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."

"Acquire knowledge. It enableth its possessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lighteth the way to Heaven; it is our friend in the desert, our society in solitude, our companion when friendless; it guideth us to happiness; it sustaineth us in misery, it is an ornament among friends, and an armour against enemies." (I really like this one!)

I notice the Bad-spellers' Corollary, too, but I try to be charitable and think they are mere typos, a product of fingers not keeping up with thoughts.

And let me also say that I am not a Muslim. Nor a Christian. I just am tired of it being "open season" on Muslims. Tired of redneck ignorance and American bravado. Yes, something under 3,000 people died in the 9/11 attacks. Horrible. Spectacularly successful hate. Some poster earlier said glibly, do unto others as you have them do unto you - but do it first. Well, how did it feel? In retaliation, how many innocent Afghans have we killed? How many innocent men, women and children have we maimed, made homeless, orphaned? The whole "eye-for-an-eye" thing should mean appropriate, equivalent justice for the perpetrators, not "we're going to kill 10 innocents of yours for every innocent of ours you killed." But this isn't about justice, it is just fear and anger.

And meanwhile, how many people got creamed on our highways by drunk drivers? How many random shootings have occurred on our own streets? How many women have died of breast cancer? How many people starve in this world each and every day? Time out for some perspective, please.

We need to learn from 9/11. We need to put things in perspective and make it a better world for all, or it will be a hopeless world for all.

PS -- How can I copy that Corporate American flag? Now there is a flag I can unabashedly display on my bumper! Is it a jpeg or what?

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), May 02, 2002.


It's not a religious issue for me either and I feel the same way snoozy. It's clear to see when you're not biased or blinded by religious prejudice.

You can right-click on that flag and either choose "copy picture" or "print picture" for for IE. For netscape, right click and 'save image as" and then print. It can also be found at; http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/flag/index.gif

-- justanotherview (doesnt@matter.com), May 02, 2002.


a few questions some are asking and nobody is answering;

-For George Tenet, CIA;

Is any afghan agent also member of the ISI?

Is any afghan agent also working for Bin Laden?

Is any afghan agent also working at any of the following companies: UNOCAL, Halliburton, BinLadin Group Inc, Afghan Development Company, Telephone Systems International (TSI) , Consolidated Contractors International, SG Asia Project Finance, Caspian Pipeline Consortium

Why did you stop to monitor Chalid al-Midhar in 2000 in Malaysia?

Is it not correct that Bin Ladin Group Inc. helped to build ToraBora together with the CIA?

Is it correct that you relocated Chalid Al-Midhar and Nawaq Alhamzi in October 2000 again? Why did you stop monitoring them again a second time?

What was the purpose of the meeting with General Pervez Musharraf in May 2001?

Where did you get the photos of all 19 hijackers?

How did you get all 19 names so fast 2 days after the attack?

Why all 19 names still didn't appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released?

How did you get the first five names of the hijackers on the same day of September 11th?

Can you explain, why none of the names appeared on any passenger list, UA and AA gave out to CNN?

What exactly did the CIA do on September 11th?

-For Represantatives of the Consortium Afghan Development Company, e.g. Ghulam Jeloni Popal:

When was the last time you have been in touch with any member of the US-Government? Who did you meet? What do you know about Telephone Systems International (TSI) who announced in January 1999 a $240 million contract with the Taliban to establish a network of satellite-call centers in Afghanistan's major cities and a 30,000-line wireless phone system in Kabul?

-For Helen Harris, TSI Telecommunication Services Inc. , since January 2002 GTCR Golden Rauner:

What was the purpose of ENRON/Enron Online and TSI in Afghanistan and Pakistan since 1998? When was it sure, that TSI has to be sold to GTCR Golden Rauner on December 10th, 2001?

-For Richard Cellar, UNOCAL Pakistan:

When was the last time Richard Cheney meet UNOCAL? When was the last time Henry Kissinger meet US-Ambassador in Pakistan, Robert Oakley?

-For Charlie Santos, former colleague of the UN-Sondermission in Afghanistan:

When was the last time you met anyone of the Taliban?

-For SG Asia Project Finance, 15 QUEEN'S ROAD, HONG KONG:

Is your account in Hongkong in any way related to an Al-Quaeda account, which you didn't know before?

-For Deutschebank-Alex Brown;

Who was the investor who purchased 2,000 United Airlines (UAL) put option contracts between August 8th, 2001 and September 11th, 2001?

What can you say about 2,500 UA-contracts which were 'split into 500 chunks each, directing each order to different U.S. exchanges around the country simultaneously.' on August 10th, 2001?

Did you purchase UAL options in August 2001?

Is it correct that you purchased 4,744 put options on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396 call options between September 6th and September 7th, 2001?

Is it correct that you or Wally Kromgaard purchased 4,516 put options on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options on September 10th, 2001?

What was the reason of Mayo Shattuck III resignment on September 15th?

-For General Mahmud Ahmad, former head of the ISI; What was the decision to step back from your position from the ISI? Can you explain the decision why the retaliation against the Taliban started on the same day when you stepped down? Can you tell us, who of the ISI paid $100.000 to Mohammad Atta?

What was the purpose of your visit in Washington on September 11th, 2001?

- For Igor Ivanov, Russian Foreign Minister; Who told you to stop an air strike against Afghanistan in May 2000? Is it correct, that Russian intelligence notified the CIA in 2001, that 25 terrorist pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions, which was reported in the Russian press?

-For A.B. 'Buzzy' Krongard, CIA; Is it true, that the CIA is in possession of a software called PROMIS? What is the purpose of PROMIS? What is your connection to Alex Brown, DeutscheBank?

-For Scott Ritter, former UN Inspecteur in Baghdad: Do you know Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani? Do you know which persons he met between April 8th and April 11th, 2001? What was the purpose of monitoring Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani?

-For Ollie Boileau, COO Northrop Grumman Saratoga, WY: Is it correct that the Global Hawk technology was able to remote control one or more unmanned planes in 1999 for 27 hours? Is it correct that you use or used Global Hawk technology in the war in Afghanistan since October 2001?

-For Tommy Franks, Commander in chief of Central Command, Marine Lt. Gen. Michael P. DeLong Is it correct that two U.S. carrier battle groups arrived on station in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast before September 11th? Is it also correct that at the same time, some 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation 'Bright Star.'? What was the purpose of both of these operations?

-For Colin Powell, Secretary of State Who decided to give you $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime in May 2001? Do you know, that the Production of opium in Afghanistan fell from 3276 tonnes in 2000 to 185 tonnes in 2001?

-For Stephen Lander , Director MI5? Why did you stop monitoring Djamel Beghal, member of Takfir-wal-Hijra in August 2001?

-For Abdul Jalil,Taliban deputy foreign minister(if he is Still alive);

When was the last time you meet any representatives of the U.S. Government?

What was the purpose of these meetings?

Do you know Karl E. Inderfurth and State Department counterterrorism chief Michael Sheehan?

Do you know which US-Representative told you in February 2001: 'Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs'?

When was the last time you have been in touch with this representative?

-For the FBI:

Why did George W.Bush stop inquiries into the terrorist connections of the Bin Laden family in early 2001?

Who gave the decision of John O'Neills resignement to stop investigating Al-Aqueada accounts?

Who gave the decision to give him a security job at the World Trade Center?

Did John O'Neill meet anyone of the FEMA in the night of September 10th?

Can you explain, why some media reports said, that two of the hijackers had bought tickets for flights scheduled after the Sept. 11 attacks?

Can you explain, why Ahmed Alghamdi, who was on the United Airlines plane that hit the World Trade Center, had also purchased tickets for a flight the next day from Dulles Airport in Washington D.C. to Saudi Arabia?

Who called the Westmoreland County 911 and claimed that he is sitting in a plane which had been hijacked?

Why none of the 19 hijackers appeared on the passenger lists?

Can you explain, why Muslims would frequent bars and drink alchoholic beverages or leave their Qurans there?

Can you explain, why the so called professional hijackers used credit cards with their correct names, and allowed drivers licenses with photos to be xeroxed?

Can you explain, why the hijackers were able to deviate from the flight plan and crash into their targets without any effort from law enforcement or the military to stop them?

How could the FBI distinguish between 'regular' Muslims and hijacker Muslims on those flights? Can you explain the coincidence why no other 'innocent' muslim was on board of any of these flights?

Can you explain, why Mohammad Atta left his bag at the airport or the employees didn't put it on board?

Can you explain, why Mohammad Atta did put a video 'how to fly planes', an uniform and his last will into his bag, knowing that he will commit suicide anyway?

Why didn't the FBI release the air traffic controllers protocols?

and many more...



-- consider this (doesnt@matter.com), May 02, 2002.


considerthis -- can you explain the significance of many of your questions? It seems like you have to be very much in-the-know to appreciate these questions. Here's a start: what's all the stuff about put options and shares in UA? And all the banks you're name-dropping -- what exactly are you inferring?

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), May 02, 2002.

considerthis, what a nice long list of pointless 'name dropping'. Have you got anything useful to say about any of the questions you ask?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), May 02, 2002.

In regards to the put options trading- that it's obvious several if not many had knowledge prior of the attacks on 9/11 and used it to capitalize. There was unusually heavy short-selling, mostly through put options on United and American Airlines Axa Re Insurance and Munich Re Insurance, and several American brokerage/investment firms. Those who bought put options or sold calls had very large leveraged gains coming to them if the price of those stocks went down before the options expired. The market indexes experienced heavy selling in the days leading up to 9/11 also, to the point of breaking down through technical support lines. Many times in stock trading, price precedes news. It's hard to keep inside people from capitalizing on news before it hits the wires, or before it happens. Greed is a powerful motivator for many people. It's almost too obvious with 9/11 but the average person doesn't think or care about those things.

Even the Security and Exchanges commission has ongoing investigations since then but they haven't gone awywhere yet and I'm sure they won't, unless it's just a token charge of a few people. It amazes me all those things are just ignored but of course, just whip the masses into a patriotic flag waving frenzy and anyone who questions is chastised or worse. It's not a coincidence how that happens.

Alex Brown is the investment firm of Deutschebank A.B. The investment arm of that massive bank was headed by Krongard until 98, and he is now the executive director of the CIA.

Those facts and questions are just minor details and I think all of this, the whole event is just a very small part of past history and what's to come. There's alot of information out there if you look for it. I have no doubt that what was put out to the public is not the true story, from who is responsible, to what happened on flight 93 and everything else involved and why it happened. I have very little doubt that what happened on 9/11 wasn't really a 'terrorist attack'. I have no doubt that we are not in Afghanistan or anywhere else in that entire region to fight "terrorists". Of course, the average person blows that off as nutcase conspiracy theories or worse. Say things like that and you're labled anti-American. They just don't understand. Oh well.

In my humble opinion what happened on 9/11 and since is just a small part of something much larger. It's not a matter of America against some other unknown. Nations and borders have little meaning in all of this. If people would just sit back and look for themselves instead of taking full faith in what they're told, they'd likely start to see these things. Not many really care to go out of their way to do that. Not many step out of their every day lives, put aside everything they've been taught and told from birth and look at the whole picture objectively. Probably because it doesn't really affect their lives at this point. Not now, not yet but if they live long enough it may.

Unfortunately nobody wants to hear that. It's a dark empty world when you're confronted with the possibility that everything you believed in, many things you were taught, everything you trusted and followed isn't even true and never was. I don't even feel comfortable talking about these things much, other than repeating or confirming what several others have already found or started to follow. Some thoughts are best kept inside when the world is the way it is.

-- justanotherviewtoconsider (doesnt@matter.com), May 02, 2002.


Sure John, we could take any one of those questions and discuss it for days. But really what will it change other than maybe your own personal opinion? Pick one that interests you and look into it.

-- justanotherviewtoconsider (doesnt@matter.com), May 02, 2002.

Tell us more, considerthis. Be the light in the murk of the forest of geo-political corporate maneuvers.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), May 02, 2002.

justanotherviewtoconsider, hows about we just talk a few words about that telephone project in Kabul?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), May 03, 2002.

I cam across the website where all of these questions and more are listed. Verbatim.

A forum on conspiracies. Lots of unanswerable questions to riddle the susceptible into a very anxious state. Lots of unverifiable suspicions. But just because someone is paranoid doesn't mean somebody isn't out to kill them... Certainly we are not getting the whole truth and nothing but from mainstream media. Maybe that's why we're homesteaders: we can only control our little pocket of earth.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), May 03, 2002.


With so many idiots generating needless anxiety it is indeed difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. I try to decide what is reasonable to believe and keep an open mind on the rest.

For example, it is quite true that an extensive telephone system was being installed in Kabul in 2000, I think it become operational in April 2001. As I recall from talking to people on the job there the company had been a division on Motorola but had been partitioned off and re established in another country (maybe the UK?) to avoid the sanctions that the US had on everything to do with A'stan. I saw nothing sinister in it at the time and still don't.

I have heard of many of the other names of people and companies listed but again, just because they exist does not prove anything sinister.

What was I doing in A'stan? Well that's another story and itself would make a good conspiracy story.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), May 03, 2002.


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