I am a daily reader of this list, and an occasional poster, and I just thought I would let you know that I am a public school teacher. I currently teach Business Communication, Art (three levels), and Yearbook. I taught English (freshman and junior) for ten years. I am certified in English as a Second Language, too.

Not all public schools are as bad as many of the posts here would indicate. Ours is a small rural school. Total student body numbers just over 500 in Pre-K through 12th grade. We have good kids on the whole, very few drug problems, good administrators at the high school and in the main office, and a happy faculty. Most of the teachers are farmers and ranchers outside of the school day. We have high expectations for our students and work hard to make sure they learn. Our campus was recognized by Texas Monthly magazine as one of the top five in the state for its size.

We don't allow smoking on our campus or on any part of school property. Students must follow the dress code and school rules, even when they are spectators at football games, etc.

I know you who complain about bad schools aren't making it up. There are bad, liberally run, chaotic campuses. However, I wanted you to know that they aren't all like that. Ours is wonderful, and our transfer student list proves it. We max out every year on the number of students who come in from surrounding districts and pay tuition to go to our school.

Just my two cents. Thanks for reading!

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002

Answers

Rose, you are likely a wonderful and dedicated teacher and I hope that your school is wonderful.

The majority are not. I have covered school boards in three counties ( and in three different states on different sides of the country) on and off for going on 23 years now and the disregard for the students' welfare and education is even more evident now than when I started as a reporter.

Our four kids all started public school and the oldest graduated public school. The rest were homeschooled or in tiny private school and then homeschooled to finish.

Most school systems say they want parental involvement, then when parents try to get involved they are not really welcome. Most take the attitude that the school system and government knows best, not the parents.

Also, some of the public school textbooks are ridiculous in how they try to rewrite history. Also, we have a major problem with schools wanting to put kids on Ritilan that have no business being drugged. There are some kids that need help but the majority just need an educational system that is stimulating...and they don't usually get that.

So if you're in a good school, thank God every night that yours is one of the few good ones left. suzy

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), April 12, 2002.

You have my support Rose. I have no complaints at all towards the public school my kids go to now. And it's in California, and a vast improvement over their last school back in PA. Not all of California is run by socialist-liberals and neither are all the schools. We have virtually none of that nonsense here that people assume are being taught in all public schools. It's a small school, surrounded by horse pastures and trails and has great caring teachers who've always put forth effort above what's required of them.

Another thing I'd mention is not all parents that send their kids to public schools just leave it at that. You can send your kids to public schools and still do plenty of homeschooling in addition. Everyone has their own likes, dislikes and choices but that's what I've tried to do, supplement their public school education with homeschooling. The social interaction and exposure to their classmates varied cultural backgrounds at school is something impossible for me to duplicate at home. As far as the bad influences that can be found in public schools, well that's the society we live in and I'd rather let them see it with their own eyes and prepare my kids for it than shelter them from it. At some point they'll be going out into the world alone and I don't want them to be naive about people and things that go on in society, good and bad.

Of course if your local public school is a total mess full of uncaring teachers, then I'd definitely say homeschool is the way to go.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

That drugging up kids with Ritalin is something my kids school is really against. I've talked to a few teachers and the school psychologist about that very subject.

One thing I'd like to mention about school districts that are bad. Where are the parents? Blame the parents and local citizens for letting it happen. Blame them for not showing up at board meetings. Blame people for not voting. I always see complaints about public schools and the teachers in them but does anyone ever hold the parents responsible? Way too many parents have no involvement whatsoever in their childrens schools.

As far as the way some kids act in school, kids aren't born knowing what's right and wrong. I hear some parents say they have no control over their kids behavior but I strongly disagree with that. Excepting mental illness or other medical problems, 9 out of 10 times a kid is having problems or causing problems, it can be traced back to the parents not living up to their responsibility.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

When I retired from the Navy and started college in Idaho I thought about becoming a teacher. I discovered that in Idaho, teachers had to belong to the teachers union. Since I do not agree with the NEA in particular and having to join the union in general, I decided not to become a teacher. I remember reading about a school in PA that performed vaginal exams on 60 6th grade girls, many without parental consent. One girl, when she found out what was going on, stated "my mom wouldn't want me to do this" and tried to leave but was forced to be examined by the nurse. One parent signed the consent form and then changed her mind so she called the school and rescinded her permission, which was ignored by the school. I was in TN at the time and living in a trailor park because it was all I could afford. I couldn't believe what I read about this on the Internet that I called the PA school, the state attny's office, the district DA, the state police, and the school a second time to see if what I had read was true: it was. Seems the school used what is called an "implied consent" form. This means that if the form was not returned then the school assumes it was a yes. Our local school in VA has also started using these forms so keep an eye out for them. I know my children don't always show me the forms they are given in school. As far as parents getting involved, sometimes it doesn't matter. In VA the local school board controls everything. If they are unresponsive to the parents then the parents have no recourse until election time because the state and federal dept. of educations cannot tell the local school district how to operate their schools (we have letters from the state and federal DOE's that say so.)

-- Mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Dave, many of the public schools want volunteers to do the grunt work (recess duty, grading papers, setting up for classes--all things teachers used to do by the way as part of their paid job)--but if you don't agree with something, like really stupid fundraisers, or some of the misguided curriculum passing for education these days, they are not interested in what you have to say. If they expect parents to participate, schools need to listen as well, and implement changes when necessary.

Also, if I wanted to get a job teaching, I'd get one--I wouldn't be volunteering at school. A lot of people I think wind up homeschooling because they get tired of "unteaching" things their children are learning, in other words, they are more or less "forced" into it, as someone said on a recent thread. I mean, we pay taxes, and the people hired are supposed to be doing their jobs without all this volunteer help.

And, schools don't have to be liberal-run to be bad. Even some conservative schools can hire poor teachers and turn out children who can't read, etc.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 12, 2002.

Rose, my kids went to public schools, and I can say that there were plenty of problems, but overall the school teacher were pretty darn good.

My kids (one "real kid and two stepkids) all turned out to be fine, procuctive, thoughtful adults, and I guess that counts for something. If I had it to do all over, I'd have probably home schooled them a couple of days a week and left them in public school for two days a week, and given them three day weekends for being kids! (as it was, we kept them out of school at the drop of the hat, like to go camping, to go for a month to Mexico on the train and ferry, to float the Rogue River, or any number of things we thought were educational.

I think we should all vote to increase school taxes to get a couple of aides in every classroom to help ease the teachers' work load, giving all the kids more individualized attention.

(OK, you guys, start throwing stones and tomatoes now; I'm ducking!)

-- joj (joj@home.org), April 12, 2002.

Mike, what was the purpose of those examinations? That's pretty crazy no matter what the purpose was but I'm wondering why they'd do that, especially to 6th grade girls.

I can't believe that school wasn't burnt to the ground by the local citizenry.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Did everyone have teacher aides in their classrooms? I didn't, and we had very few discipline problems. I don't think throwing in more money is the solution here, it is enforcing existing school rules. Kids smart-mouth, they go home, for example. If discipline were enforced, you wouldn't be needing "babysitters" (aides), paid or otherwise.

I honestly don't see that the teacher's workload has really increased, because you can equally make the argument that the computer (one of the big complaints of some teachers) has also made their job easier in many cases.

Mike, thanks for letting us know about "implied consent" forms--we'll be looking for them!

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 12, 2002.

GT. I, for one, certainly did not have aides in my classrooms. To my detriment, I think, and that of most the students. The teacher was forced to teach at the "average" level, leaving some of us bored to death, and others never able to catch up.

It's not because the teachers have any increased workloads now, it's just that I'd like to see the kids get a better education than they can get now.

Obviously, this is only one facet of education's problems. Others: drugs, TV, play stations, computer games, uninvolved parents, and teachers whose hands are tied when it comes to discipline.

Kids deserve a decent education; as the adults we should be willing to pay for it; if we don't, we'll pay even more when the kids get out of school uneducated.

Besides, it only makes good sense to pay for good schools. According to a study published in the Columbian Newspaper (of Vancouver, Wash.) the money spent by the state to educate community college students is returned to the state, with over ten percent interest because of increased income taxes. The folks who attended these schools earned more money, hence more income tax was paid. I can't imagine that a study of K-12 wouldn't show similar results. Not to mention health costs, food stamps, welfare, prisons burglaries, etc. which can surely be linked to poor education, at least in part.

-- joj (joj@home.org), April 12, 2002.

Dave, I think they were looking for some type of abuse but I can't remember for sure. The incident occurred around 1996/7. I have a co- worker from PA who remembers hearing/reading about it. I have four daughters and that is why I made all the long distance calls (that I really coudn't afford). I seem to recall that some of the girls were actually penetrated by the doctor. I think the Rutherford Institute took the case but I don't know the outcome.

-- Mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Mike, Sounds incredible that they'd check all the students for something like that. Maybe I'll do some web searching to see what all happened.

The public school I went to in a rural area, the teachers had aides. They were about a 2 foot long piece of 1" board drilled full of holes. They called it a paddle and used it quite often and not always in a fair equal manner either. If you did something wrong, or at times if the teacher was just having a bad day and didn't like you, up to the blackboard you went and got whacked 3 or 4 times with it on the buttocks or thighs, in front of the class. You would have huge bruises for days. You didn't dare cry out in pain of course because then you'd be ridiculed. You didn't laugh at someone else being spanked or you'd get some too. That was back in the 80s. If a teacher was treating you unfairly and brought it to the attention of the principal, he very possibly would grab you by your shirt collar, slam you against the wall and then pull out his own paddle. That's what he did to me anyway.

Several of the teachers didn't care for "outsiders" as I and a few other kids were to the area. The other kids in school didn't mind "outsiders" but oddly enough some of the teachers did. Things lightened up a bit after one kid broke his wrist after being pushed down by a teacher in the middle school. That's the school I entered into when I moved to the area at age 11. I had never imagined anything like that before that time. When I became an adult, at times I had visions of going back there to visit a certain teacher or two with a paddle of my own ; ) It was that bad of an experience for me. I was a straight A student who skipped a grade before I moved to that school. My interest in school didn't last long. I eventually dropped out. Not everything in public schools has degraded with the progression of time.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

I spent time as a child in both public (elementary) and later in private schools. My mother is a public school teacher. I do not consider myself a homesteader. I AM that YUPPIE farmer by some definitions.

I send my children to public schools today in a small town. Here is some of the reason why.

My oldest child was born with Down Syndrome. The truth is private school just don't spend the money on the special services she needed. It would have been child abuse to send her to a private school. I never saw a special needs student in a private school. Sure there are a few slow students (which I befriended during my high school years) but private schools in the Chicago subburbs that I grew up in had NO mild or moderate retarded students. Disabled students, give me a break. The private high school I attended had three floor plus a basement. No elevator. There just is not the support there.

My wife is a BS nurse and I am an electrical engineer. I work the day shift and the spouse works part-time the evening shift. We are still not qualified to homeschool any of children. I am afraid most homeschool parents are doing more harm than good to thier child but that is thier choice. I am friends with many of the home schoolers in this area. We can pretend bad parents and bad children will not come in contact with our family if we homeschool but sooner or later you have to go to town. We are a community.

I feel the real problem today is few people are will to be responsible, show self respect and use self-discipline. These are the values I learn in the private high school. Everyone is pushing for more regulation in other peoples lives. I think the Liberatians are right on most every issue but public schooling. However, I would like to see the federal government out of the education business. We, the good folks need to speak up when we see injustice. We need to use peer preasure on our neighbors and relatives. I remember a time when I went to my neice's birthday party many years ago. My brother-in-law placed himself in front of the TV to watch a baseball game and drink beer. I called him on the carpet for ignoring his children at that special time. He no longer does that, at least not when I am around.

In Madison WI, an student just missed weeks of school because he brought a kitchen knife to school for a science project. Zero tolerence. Zero common sense! My mentally retarded daughter also just took a camping knife/spoon/fork to school as well. She found it while cleaning her room and want to eat her school lunch with it. Her teacher took it away and called us. Common sense in the small town. Thankfully.

Parents, grandparents and the community in general needs to be active in the education of all people. We own the building, they work for us. I walk into the school building thinking that. An educated public is important to the success and peace of mankind.

I sometimes wonder why homesteaders don't ever discuss world politics here? I do enjoy some of the other debates you have here. Specially the religious topics. I am a recovering Catholic, like the AAA kind. I am still on the first step of the 12 step program. "I have a problem, I call it organized religion!"

-- BossNass (chrisnass@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Rose stated that her school has kids from pre-K through to grade 12. I think this is an important fact. Here in Canada, many schools are K-6, 7 & 8, and 9-12 (13 in some provinces). I assume that this occurs in the states as well?

In this type of situation, kids go from 'earning' their way to the big kids at the school, to being the little 'babies' again - twice!

In a pre-K to 12 school, there is inevitable growth of the student, and it is apparent to all. The older kids are expected to set a good example for the younger. The kids establish their reputation - once. There is no option of switching from a model student to a trouble maker without someone noticing. (and dealing with it!!)

The teachers are more aware of their students. Even if they teach, say, grade 6, they know who the 'stars' are in both the lower and upper grades. Likewise, they know the trouble makers.

In the interest of developing schools that are most economical, Boards of Education have developed a system that is much more like a factory assembly line that is mass educating our children as though they were little robots instead of beings with individuality and personality.

Just a general observation, and my personal opinion.

-- Bernie from Northern Ontario (bernadette_kerr@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

"I think we should all vote to increase school taxes to get a couple of aides in every classroom to help ease the teachers' work load, giving all the kids more individualized attention. "

I got a better idea, joj. Why don't we get rid of half of the bloated administrative jobs/pencil pushing jobs/duplicate jobs in addition to the parasitic industries that feed off the states' education budget, and use THAT money to give the kids individualized attention?

It's always take more, more, more from the taxpayer and NEVER find out where the money evaporated to AFTER it was taxed from us and BEFORE it got to the schools.

-- gita (gita@directcon.net), April 12, 2002.

OK, Gita, let's do both. Whatever it takes. Just let's don't screw the kids because we adults can't get it together.

-- joj (joj@home.org), April 13, 2002.

Most community colleges charge tuition, so you're putting plenty of money in the system. Also, they have the difficult job of picking up the mess that K-12 often leaves kids in, but, since you are paying tuition, surprise, there are no discipline problems. That goes for any school, even K-12 private, as well.

I don't think putting more aides in class is the answer, simply because there will always be children ahead of or behind the average. Some kids will never learn even the minimum amount required, and basically will be babysat through school. As to whether one is qualified to homeschool, I guess it depends on what your school is teaching. Many schools today are teaching to this or that test, and not teaching in general (I don't blame teachers for this, by the way). Anyone can teach to a test, and tests don't necessarily measure knowledge of anything, it just shows you can take a test.

And I'm sure we all know people who've done well without a college education, as well as people who've done poorly despite a college education.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 13, 2002.

I agree with Gita 100%. The salaries that alot of the administration get are obscene. The buildings they work in at the district level are much nicer than the schools they are supposed to be working for. Alot of those in top level administration barely put in a full days work apparently because they're hardly in their offices.

We already pay too much in taxes.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 13, 2002.

GT, I agree with you and disagree. I agree that putting more aides in the classroom won't help much. It is painfully obvious that in this day and age many parents don't raise and "parent" their children as they did yrs ago. Some of this is due to changes yrs ago in parental abuse and to the fact that the school could no longer discipline students, considered it corporal punishment. I will never ever forget my 6th grade spelling/writing teacher, Mrs. brazil, she wa sthe wife of a Baptist minister and wore long dresses, high older lady style combat boots (hmmmm she'd be in high fashion now ) and her hair in a bun. She was no nonsense and about 60 yrs old. If you dared to look wrong she'd swat ya with her ruler. But ya know, seems back then we were not badly behaved either. so many behavior problems in the classroom begin with the parent NOT teaching the child appropriately at home. I am not blasting parents here, just mentioning the experiences I have had in the 20 yrs cours eof teaching.

Now I will say that if the schools would legally follow the IDEA law and include children with disabilities then the lower end students would improve. In western NYS when i was in graduate school we observed several models, the ones that worked best were the ones that had the therpasists and special ed teachers work with all the children, not just one. Ideally, according to academia, this works. yeah, right! The special ed teacher is supposed to consult with the gen ed teacher and modify lesson plans, but I found it so frustrating in one school because we never had time to do that or couldn't because we taught a class. the special ed teacher must flex from child to child and room to room.

I disagree with the computer making it easier, many schools don't even supply their teachers or students with computers. And I personally find it more efficient to hand write information, can do it faster than a computer.

And yes, teachers are finding themselves more and more teaching to the test, why? because they must be held accountable. When i worked in VA we had to ferret through the awful SOL's and documnet, document, documnet. i still can't figure why the emphasis is upon doing so much paperwork these days and not on teaching. With this a teacher has less time to plan, and unless you teach in the North, don't expect time for planning. Its a luxary, not a necissity. I ahve tons of it in special ed, it really can burn you out.

JOJ, I disagree with you based upon my experiences. Teachers DO have an extra work load because of states requiring accountability. Did you know many states, such as VA and NC will step in and fire all the teachers and administrators in a school that doesn't pass the state testing standards. The paperwork is overwhelimg for accountability. Perhaps you work in a state that is different and haven't seen this yet. I live and teach in AR and they are not at that level yet, and speaking of which, AR is 48 in schools. Sad.

Mike, I don't know where in VA you are at, however, in the 4 schools I worke din there, in no way did the school infer that if the parent didn't return the forms it meant implied consent. thats simply ludacris. Oh and there are no unions for teachers in the south as in the north.

I personally belive that schools will continue to be zoos, well, most anyways, until the federal or state govts stop ignoring politics.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 13, 2002.

Bernice, if you get the chance, look at the form that seeks parental permission for VA's "Family Life(?)" program. It is an implied consent form. If the form is not signed and returned stating that your child IS NOT permitted to take the class then it is "assumed" by the school that they can take the class. Last school year I hand- carried the forms to the school because I was concerned my children would forget to turn them in. Seems my children brought home another implied consent form a week or so ago but I don't remember.

-- Mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), April 13, 2002.

I believe MOST public schools are good. Any normal kid that is taught disipline at home (and that includes the disipline to do his studies) walks out of the public school system with the tools needed to succeed in this world. The school system promises nothing more. It is not just the teacher's job to see that the child does not fall behind, that is why report cards are sent to the homes to be signed by the parent.

Most problems occur in the junior high schools, grades 6-8. Not the teacher's fault. Just a fact of life for that age group. I believe we can all look back on those years with the memory of the chant "fight, fight" and the hopes that that call was not made in the hallways for to witness our butt-kicking. Probably the reason there is a middle school to begin with, keep those of that age away from the rest of the school kids.

As for the vaginal exams that were forced on the Virginia students.... That just may be urban legend. Must be a real rich school district that can afford to have the traditional nurse be assisted by a gynocologist(sp). Just don't believe it happened. If such a thing should happen the whole world would be in an uproar and be talking about it.

-- Diana in FL (dvance4@juno.com), April 13, 2002.

Oh Geeze...wonder who said this before...

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), April 13, 2002.

Diana in FL, read my previous post carefully and you will read that I called the school, state attny generals office, the district attnys office, the state police, and then the school again. The incident in PA with the 60 6th grade girls is not urban legend. It really occurred and I really did spend too much money in phone calls to verify the validity of the article. As I have stated, it occurred in PA and not in VA. Sorry if I confused anyone with the location of the school.

-- Mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), April 13, 2002.

I looked into that story, it's true. It eventually went before the US District court.

http://www.poconorecord.com/1999/topstory/tp072899.htm

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 13, 2002.

Mike, Sorry about not reading things closely enough. I still find it hare to believe that such a thing could happen and the national press not jump all over it. This is the kind of stuff that sells newspapers!

-- Diana in FL (dvance4@juno.com), April 13, 2002.

Bernice, it was I who said that I didn't think teachers' workloads were appreciably different these days, not JOJ :-)

I still don't. For example, I remember a recent teacher conference right after school (not 5 or 6pm) where the first words out of the principal's mouth were "Thank you Mrs. So-and- so, for staying past your normal time for this meeting (obviously you can tell it was a union environment). You would NEVER have heard that when I was in school--after school conferences were part of the job, you didn't have two weeks of minimum days so it could be done "on the clock" (well, for the teachers anyway).

I always wonder how many parents are truly able to take the time off for these meetings. A lot of people work in situations where you reserve your annual leave and good luck getting "spot" (asking only a few days ahead) leave, unless for a bona fide emergency (and teacher conferences don't qualify). They would be more than happy to come in before or after work, but teachers are very reluctant to hold conferences this way.

And I still think, that even in the upper grades, children who have proper discipline will do fine, but the schools need to get rid of the bad apples instead of continuing to let them come to school. I don't like hearing "that's normal behavior" either, that's an excuse (like the twinkie defense). Parents should not have to physically be at the school all the time to "keep order".

Teachers and administrators are paid (and pretty well, too) to do a job, we as parents should do our part by sending our children to school well-behaved, but not do their jobs for them.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 13, 2002.

Dianna, the purpose of the media is not to sell newspapers but to manipulate public opinion to be amenable to their socialist agenda.

Rose, there are some very fine public schools but they are few and far between. I think they are simply a reflection of the community and the parental values in that community.

I sent my daughter to public school when we live in an isolated community where 99% of the families attended 1 of the 4 churches and it was assumed that every child would be attending college. This school was far superior to most private schools. Education and deportment were taken very seriously in this community. I was sorry to have to move away.

The next community we lived in seems to be made up of people trying to suck as much out of the public trough as they could without any real ties to the community or any commitment to the children. Dual income families (including school employees) using the school for free childcare and letting the kids run unsupervised anyplace and anytime. The school employs anyone and their cousins to do absolutely nothing but suck the government sugartit. The classrooms are overcrowded and the campus is dirty. The teachers can not teach grade level because the grade level students are few and far between. There is no discipline on campus because there is no discipline in the homes. My daughter begged my to homeschool and we haven't regretted that choice.

Recently in that school district, the worst parent/neighbor/fellow citizen I have ever encountered was appointed to the school board and no one batted an eye. One young adult summed up that school real well when he stated, "Yeah it's a great school, I smoked dope all day long, didn't do any work, and still passed all my classes and graduated!"

-- Laura S. (LadybugWrangler@somewhere.com), April 13, 2002.

I've worked as a school librarian in a private school, in a public school (poverty stricken area) and now in a high school in a very wealthy area (and drive 20 miles each way because Ican't afford to live there).

The private school sucked - never again. Poor discipline, poor administration, poor pay, and far too many brats.

The poor school I loved. Those kids were wonderful. Discipline was an ongoing struggle, mostly because it was the only place many of them had any consequences (neighborhood where some parents were dealing drugs, others in abusive relationships, others neglectful, many spoke little or no English, etc, etc, etc). Most of those teachers cared passionately for their students, and put in 10+ hours a day. I never heard a one complain about staying late or coming in early to meet with parents. The kids whose parents were as involved as the teachers did well. Some who had lousy home lives did well because their teachers helped them realize they had worth. When kids took weapons to school, they were confiscated and the kids were counseled.

As for the rich school, haven't been there all that long - but find most of the kids are courteous, respectful, and easy to get along with 95% of the time. The teachers are dedicated and focused on helping the kids to succeed.

I am also the adoptive parent to a child with major special ed needs. I would never be able to teach her as well as the teachers she's had in the public schools she's attended, and, with one exception, have had nothing but good to say about the teachers she's had.

Yes, there are awful schools out there, and unfortunately the kids pay the price for the lack of quality. But there are also some excellent schools with wonderful faculty who help kids to succeed and to learn.

-- Aileen (Aileen1704@yahoo.com), April 13, 2002.