Saw an article in the paper today saying that there is a federal bill in the Senate now proposing to regulate how often dog breeders breed their dogs! Ostensibly this is to cut down on cruel puppy mills. But how will this be enforced on the small private breeder? Big Brother is watching? I haven't checked, but there is supposed to be more info on akc.org.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), April 04, 2002

Answers

There needs to be something done. Here in Oklahoma they have arrested/fined several people in just the last couple of years that have abandoned there dog factories. Some of them would have a 100- 200 dogs that were starving to death, or in some type of very bad health.

I might step on somebodies toes for saying this, but I think that if a person has more than 10 or so dogs/cats that they should have to registar with the state health department and have a yearly inspection. The reason why I say this is that I have a neighbor who lives about a half of a mile from me that has about 15-20 dogs and cats. I've had to shoot a few of her dogs cause they are always coming over here to get my chickens. None of them look very well fed, so I know why they are looking for a chicken dinner.

-- r.h. in okla. (rhays@sstelco.com), April 05, 2002.

I'm sure the proposed law is also perhaps about trying to eliminate the backyard breeders who deliberately inbreed and train dangerous pit bulls and rottweilers. Those dog breeds have gotten a bad rap because of people, not because they were bad dogs to begin with.

I doubt that there will be the manpower to directly enforce it--I bet it will be left up to the neighbors to call things in.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 05, 2002.

I finally see a new law that might have value. Here in KY, folks buy a pair of dogs, breed them with 'hopes' of selling the offspring for big money. In most towns there are backyard breeders, whatever is popular due to TV, Movies or Ads, they get a pair & start breeding them!! I work with a local humane society, you wouldn't believe how many purebred animals are dumped/abandonded when these get rich quick schemes don't produce the buyers & the breeder can't afford to pay for decent food,housing & vet care. I'm not opposed to the honorable breeder who is familiar with the time,money & breeding knowledge that is necessary, it's these people inbreed,breed continually-the one's who don't even vaccinate or worm the poor pups, they just want the money with no thought to the welfare of the dogs involved. Well enough of my ranting; but at least this law would put some legal strength into the complaints the county receives concerning backyard breeder abuse.

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), April 05, 2002.

Yes, this law does have value! How often do you need to breed a dog anyway? There are way to many unwanted dogs and those purebreds that have so many flaws from interbreeding, etc. that the breed is getting lost. About time they did something!

-- Karen (mountains_mama2@hotmail.com), April 05, 2002.

It was supposed to be just for the comercial puppy mills who sell to pet stores, some 3 to 4 thousand of them. But now they are trying to expand it. They (the states) don't have enough time now to keep the puppy mill laws enforced, that's why there are so many bad ones. There is no time to see them all. If they can't even take care of the puppy mills, how are they going to do more? It will burden an allready overloaded work force. If they were really concerned about this, they would hire more people to inspect the puppy mills, not pass more bills.

Puppys must be socialized. Gee, just how are they going to monitor this? A live in inspector?

This is not a good bill. This will go into private homes, folks who raise and show dogs and only sell to private families. Just the hunting dog population alone would be impossible to cover. And most, I say most, folks who sell to private families take good care of the dogs and pups. AKC is strongly against this bill.

If this goes thru, horses are next. How many horses go into livestock auctions for slaughter? Millions. They will try to stop the breeding of horses except by the very rich. Is that fair? Then what? Rabbits? It's just a foot in the door to regulate what we do on our private farms.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), April 05, 2002.

One thing I forget to ad. Go to your local pound. How many of the unwanted pups and dogs are mixed breeds? Most all of them. This bill will do nothing to stop the millions of mixed breed litters each year, so what good is it. They should fine people who bring pups to the pound. One guy here locally brings several litters each year to the pound, and they do nothing to him. They have even given him free certificates to get his dogs fixed. If he has under 5 dogs, he can continue to do this year after year. And so can the rest of them who let their dogs get bred when they should not.

The huge problem in this country is the mixed breed population in the pounds, not the private breeders. We have a web page dedicated to placing BC's taken out of our local pound. Most breeders spend thousands of dollars helping place dogs of their breed in need of homes. People who breed mixed breed pups do not.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), April 05, 2002.

I agree with yo ucindy. We all want to help animals who can't speak up for themselves. It sounds like a good idea in the first place. But the honest people get the shaft while the mills and mutts seem to get around the rules. Then it trickles over to the other critters. Then boom, we can only get our horses, cows, etc. from rich folks.

Hubby and I talked about this when lil quacker posted about the seed swapping under peril. Government wants a hand in everything. It is one thing to regulate large business for safety sake, but the little guys like us that just want to provide for our families, wont be allowed to raise our animals(let alone butcher them), raise a garden, drive a tractor before 8 am.... Then what? That doesn't leave us much...

-- Novina in ND (homespun@stellarnet.com), April 05, 2002.

I can't see how this bill could possibly be enforced. I know that there are plenty of pure breds at the pounds but obviously if there wasn't a market for them backyard breeders wouldn't breed them.

Also, what about fining all those people that let their mut breed and have puppies. Our neighbour gets a new dog every year because the old one always ends of squished in the road. The dog usually has puppies and I've seen them squished in the road. Who lets little puppies run around loose when you live next to a 2 lane highway. I've also seen his dogs tied to trees in winter when it's freezing and raining and the poor dog has no shelter and has ice all over its fur.

-- Anita in NC (anitaholton@mindspring.com), April 05, 2002.

Don't we do the same thing with other livestock? How many breeding opeations breed their cattle, pigs, sheep, goats, poultry of all sorts and so on when ever it is possible for them to be bred?

Are dogs different because we keep them as pets and not as livestock?

This kind of thing will start with dogs but it won't stop there.

Heck, we have a very credible movement going on here in the state of Florida to have an amendment to the state CONSTITUTION about how one may raise hogs! I don't like big factory style confinement operations either, nor puppy mills but having laws passed to ban them is not the way to eliminate the problem.

You give government the responsibility for doing something they'll take the authority to do it and they'll keep on taking the authority as every group with an axe to grind realizes they can use the government to their own ends as well.

........Alan.

-- Alan (athagan@atlantic.net), April 05, 2002.

Alan is 100% right. When will it stop. As a rabbit breeder, are they going to tell me how often I can breed my rabbits? They are not classified as livestock. This is opening up a can of worms. Do we need more govt regulations?

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), April 05, 2002.

one of the major problems is the unwillingness of ignorant people to fix their dogs and keep them up. the people who buy a cute little puppy for jr for his b-day are as much to blame as the puppy mills. greed and selfishness is at the bottom. no, we don't need more gov't reg. we need to take a stand against the idiots who breed irresponsibly and then dump the dogs. they are the ones who need to be driven out of business. wish i knew how to do it without hurting the honest small farmer/breeder/ homesteader.

-- laura (okgoatgal@hotmail.com), April 05, 2002.

Well, like I said in my 'Modest Proposal', it IS a problem. And I think a great solution would be including a birth control in almost all dog food, with only special brands not including this additive, and the special brands being higher priced. People would have to make a consious choice if they wanted puppies, as it is now, puppies are the default selection unless they do something about it, and lots of people don't bother. I read in Mother Earth News (an old issue), that pet food with birth control additives was being considered, but there was main obstacle- the thousands of people who eat pet food....

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 05, 2002.

The way we humans treat other species is dispicable, in general. We breed 'em, confine 'em, starve 'em, endanger 'em, haul 'em around, poke 'em an prod 'em.....then if we choose to, we eat them. All of this is done with no respect. We are all equal in the eyes of God...including the critters. WE must learn to respect all life.....to be truly thankful for what we, at the top of the food chain, are given for food, companionship and protection. In the end, we can only help the misguided by doing what's right for us and praying for them. (And helping the orphans that are sent to us for safekeeping.....support your local animal rescue operation!)

-- Barbie from N. Idaho (think_peace51@hotmail.com), April 05, 2002.

I'm glad people brought up the humane society/animal shelter, because it too is part of the problem. Why? People think "oh, I'll go to the shelter and save an animal of the heinz 57 variety", only to find that it costs up to $60-70, plus licensing fees! That's a lot of money to pay for an animal when you can get one free from an ad in the paper, or in front of a supermarket.

Granted, some of that money goes towards an exam and spay discount coupon, which is fine, but $7 goes for a microchip, which I think is useless. A collar with a tag or printed/embroidered collar works just as well for ID contact info, is cheaper, and the person finding the animal doesn't have to take it somewhere HOPING there is a chip to be read. Not to mention that a chip (same could happen with a tag, but you're not out so much money) does no good if you have a friendly animal that is "adopted" (or just kept) by someone who finds it.

Our friend also had an experience of how useful the shelter really is. Their dog dug under the fence on the 4th of July (dog had a tag, but it came off when she got out). They did have someone coming by to feed the dog every day, by the way.

They called the shelter with the info. They did get the dog back about 3 days later, but only because, someone put an ad in the lost and found in the local paper--why the paper and not call/take the animal to the shelter? Because the people who found the dog said it was 3 days and the dog would be euthanized, so they kept the dog, and they would have rotated the lost dog ad (you're only allowed one a week per household) among other family members, because the dog did have a collar, and that time of year, someone may have been gone for the week. We figure we will at least give a lost dog two weeks before it goes to the shelter.

And, even the shelter is telling people who find dogs to keep them until they get a phone call--so what are you paying all these license fees for if the shelter is telling you you're on your own? It wouldn't be that expensive just to set up a lost/found dog website where you could upload a pic of your lost/found animal, or at least a description, or even a dedicated phone line for each local area of the list of lost/found dogs.

Sorry for the rant, but I think that other than checking for a rabies vaccine, it shouldn't cost you more than $5 a year in license fees for a dog.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 05, 2002.

It boggles my mind that there are so many responses on this forum in favor of this or any similar legislation. To support a big brother type program of any kind flies in the face of the true homesteaders values.

-- Mac in AK (nospam@aol.com), April 05, 2002.

Mac, I think it is because a lot of people have no sense of responsibility any more when it comes to animals, kids, auto accidents, etc. Watch any Judge Joe Brown or Judge Judy and you can see it right there.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 05, 2002.

The reason so many pounds, oh excuse me shelters, have only mixed breed pups is because breed rescues are in their first getting their breeds out of their. You actually have to know somebody in Houston to pull a purebred looking pup out of their before rescue, the only reason my sister was able to finally get a pug.

I really don't see why, and we have had this discussion before, that they do not use the extra cats and dogs in a dog/cat food program to fund the shelters. If and when dog or cat becomes a menu item at McDonalds......................., that is the difference between livestock and pets! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (Nubians) (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 05, 2002.

As a breeder of great danes, I see this as a good start. Unfortunately, it will only impact the purebred breeder because the only way that it will be enforced is for the AKC not to register more than one litter in a year from the same bitch. Not being able to register a litter, when you are a purebred breeder, makes the breeding of very little commercial value. You can only get "high" prices for your purebred puppies if they are AKC registered. (I know there are some other dog registries available but right now the customer demand for those is very low). I agree with this measure. It stops the purebred puppy mills from being able to register litters from the same dam every six months and therefore it is not profitable for them to do it and they will quit doing it. This does nothing, however, for the mixed breeder. There is no way to enforce those people. I would actually rather see it become a requirement that every breeder has to have a license to be a breeder. The county would have to enforce it locally. The license could be inexpensive such as $15 a year but you have to get it every year and anyone caught selling a puppy, purebred or mixed, would receive a VERY hefty fine and all of the puppies confiscated so they don't gain anything from the sale of the litter. First offense, a couple of hundred dollars for those that didn't know about the law, further offenses thousands of dollars. At least this would mean that a person has to make a conscious decision to be a breeder and get the license before they breed. They would be easy to catch because as soon as an ad came out in a newspaper or public bulletin board the county dog officer could respond and verify their license. The fines could be used to spay/neuter the puppies confiscated and make them available for placement inexpensively to people looking for a puppy. The only way to stop irresponsible dog breeding is to get the breeders in their wallet. Anything else will not work.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), April 05, 2002.

And why don't they just ban the sale of puppies and kittens in pet stores? The puppy mills sell to brokers who in turn sell to pet stores. If people did not buy them from pet stores, there would be no demand for puppy brokers. That's the problem, the general public never actually sees the puppy mill, just the pet store. And they think they are doing the pup a favor by taking it home.

A guy on one of the boards said he "rescued" a Border Collie pup from a pet store for 700 dollars. Well, he just kept the demand going by paying that much for one. And the pet store will get another. The puppy mills won't stop untill the people stop buying them. If you aren't welcome to go to the home and see where the pups are raised, you shouldn't buy it.

If there were a store in the mall for baby goat kids, I'm sure goat mills would spring up everywhere. They shouldn't sell pups and kittens in the mall or in any retail store. Just my opinion.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), April 05, 2002.

Our local paper right now is full of free pups, all mixed. How do you fine those people? Do they have to get a license as a breeder? What if they say they'll get the dog spayed, so therefore will not be a breeder. Well, we still have say 300 first time, first offence mixed litters going on a year, which is way, way more than all the registered puppies for sale around here. I don't see any way to stop those.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), April 05, 2002.

Karen & R.H., It's good to see I'm not alone in feeling that occasionally a law is in the best interest of ALL the people. Yes, for some the paperwork would increase, for the true well meaning 'do it for the love of the breed' I think they will understand that it will just make their purebreeds more desirable. I am surprised at the number of people who feel that a 'mutt' is of no value or is the cause of all the overcrowding in our local shelters. How many less than perfect purebreds at least in KY are let to run loose, unaltered/spayed just to find a mate which is the cause of a litter of 'mutts'. If they are going to let their purbred dogs run then I think they should either be spayed/neutered or else the owners should have to split the care costs of any litters produced. Mainly the one's who complain that it will flow to other farm animals aren't addressing the issue of this bill. How would you handle those breeders who when presented with some less than perfect/saleable animals let them run free or dump them off along a road? I ask all to check at the pounds, there are many purebred animals there, not all are lost, most have been abandoned or surrendered. The question of 'how about rabbits,goats,cows' is how many free roaming/breeding livestock have you seen today? Cows dead along the side of the road after being dumped to fend for themselves, no cows have a monetary value, so if homesteaders are not in it for the money what do you call de-valueing the humane treatment of any animal-livestock or companion animal by opposing laws to protect them? True, they may not be enforced effectively but just because some slip through the cracks would you repeal the child welfare laws since some kids are injured/abused while in the social service departments care? Why would we not want our children to see that all life has value and should be given humane treatment? I'm not a big fan of more laws, but I challenge anyone who doesn't like this one to spay/neuter their animals if they aren't breeders or keep them at home, or better yet work as a volunteer in a shelter to help these animals. After you see week after week dozens of animals euthanized you may see why we need laws regarding irresponsible breeders, not all 'backyard' breeders are animal lovers many in our area are money lovers switching breeds as soon as a new cute animal ad,tv program,movie brings the hope of a profit breeding that animal. Does anyone know how many abandoned Dalmations there were/are since the movie?, now we're getting chihauaha's !! The thrill of having a 'hot today' dog wore off. Day in day out our local radio 'trader' hour has people who want only purebred dogs, No mutts, can't be spayed/neutered, but they can't even tell the radio announcer what the breeds temperment is like, do these sound like caring breeders?

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), April 05, 2002.

We can't stop people from having children that they can't take care of or sell, how are you going to stop them from breeding dogs. Educate, don't legislate.

-- Emil in TN (eprisco@usit.net), April 05, 2002.

My wife and I owned a pet shop for 18 years. We did sell puppies for a while. Worked directly with a vet, and we did not buy puppies from industry beeders, we got puppies from local breeders. We also only sold puppies that as adults were no larger than about 35-40lbs. Larger breeds do poorly in the confines of a pet shop. It was so difficult to sell puppies in a pet shop situation that we totally stopped.

I believe that several things need to happen in the dog and cat world. The AKC should only register puppies from parent dogs that have been examined by AKC judges and deemed to meet its breed standards and is fit. This could be accomplished in conjunction with local shows. People wishing to breed could get their dog certified with out necessarily competing in show or obedience. Such a high percentage of registered dogs do not meet standard and so many health problems are associated with various purebred dogs that it makes AKC registry meaningless so much of the time.

Also a breeders license should be recquired to breed any dogs or cats. Enforcement would not be easy but it could be done different ways. The cost should reflect the cost of the neuter or spay of the animal.

I don't like to mandate by law many things, but we as a whole do such a disservice to animals...

All dogs and cats deserve to be wanted. The supply should never get to where we breed to destroy millions of them yearly.

-- Paul Moore (boawoman@boastore.com), April 06, 2002.