Other than using PMK, what film/developer combinations or developing techniques have you found effective in creating the smooth, almost creamy skin tones that I sometimes see? I would like to be in the 250-400 ASA range if possible.

Ben Crabtree

-- Ben Crabtree (bcrabtree@mn.rr.com), March 30, 2002

Answers

What I really want to know is the definition of "creamy skin tones".

-- Xosni (xosni@gega.net), March 30, 2002.

Xosni perhaps you should go out to a gallerie and look at the photographs of Patrick Dermachelier, Jock Sturges etc, and find for yourself what the "creamy" skin tones are.

-- Jorge Gasteazoro (rossorabbit@hotmail.com), March 30, 2002.

I have been very pleased with good old Verichrome for a creamy skin tone. This film is availale in 120. I develop is in a blend of Xtol and Rodinal.

--Sam

-- Sam (sselkind@insightbb.com), March 30, 2002.

put a yellow or yellow-green filter on the lens and use any damn film you want....

-- mark lindsey (mark@mark-lindsey.com), March 30, 2002.

This is not a direct answer to your specific question, but for the finest in creamy skin tones I always use Ilford XP-2 Super. Just try one roll!

-- Todd Frederick (fredrick@hotcity.com), March 31, 2002.

What we really need to know is creamy means in 'technical terms', then it'll be easy figure out how to achieve creamy results. Does it mean smooth gradation in highlights? Slightly washed out highlights?

Xosni

-- Xosni (xosni@gega.net), March 31, 2002.

Ben,

In the speed range that you mention i think Tri-X has a reputation for lovely skin tones. I personally prefer Delta 100. For skin-tones I would use either of these emulsions developed in Ilford Perceptol 1+3.

Just $0.20 worth - which in Aussie Dollars isn't worth much I guess.

Jock Sturgess and Irving Penn are the two guys that get creamy skin tones in my estimation and I can't help but feel they might be into Tri-X given the era that Penn was prolific and size that Sturges shoots.

What my question is is this: What does Gabriele Basilico use to get creamy cityscapes?

Walter Glover

-- Walter Glover (walterg@netaus.net.au), March 31, 2002.

Harvey's 777 is known for its rendering of skin tones. See Fred De Van's article Remembering 777. I should note that 777 is as toxic as PMK and considerably more finicky.

My experience is that rendering of skin tone has a great deal to do with the quality of light, perhaps more so than film and developer combination: see this photograph (T-Max 400 - EI 400 - developed in PMK) and this one (T-Max 100 - EI 80 - PMK), both taken in late afternoon sun. I wish all the shots taken those two days had come out as well.

-- Ed Buffaloe (edb@unblinkingeye.com), March 31, 2002.

Both Delta films can produce the look you are after. Acros and TMX, too. Of course only Delta 400 meets your speed requirement.

With careful attention, most any developer can produce the tonal scale you're looking for. But it's pretty hard to beat PMK for skin tone.

I have to ask, therefore, why not PMK? If you are concerned about toxicity, you needn't be if you take simple, common sense precautions- -don't breathe it, drink it, or bathe in it. For tank development you don't even need gloves, just wash it off if you spill any on your hands. It's not nearly as threatening as many seem to think.

It's been asserted that some photographers (notably Weston) in the past have experienced health problems from using pyro. But these examples happened from constant, heavy exposure to pyro where, for example, photographers would immerse their hands in the stuff for lengthy periods, day after day. It is poisonous and it can be absorbed through the skin, so sensible precaution is required. But that's all. It's not radioactive and it will not cause your skin to shrivel and turn black if you happen to spill any on you. So don't avoid using PMK because you think it's terribly dangerous. It just isn't.

-- Ted Kaufman (writercrmp@aol.com), March 31, 2002.

Creamy tonalities are sometimes a function of format. Shooting 6X7 will give you creamy skin tones a lot easier than the same film in 35mm. I actually like Kodak's TCN 400 speed chromogenic film for smooth skin tonalities. But I think it's basically a format issue. Where do you "sometimes see" these tones, and what format was used?

-- Phil Stiles (Stiles@metrocast.net), March 31, 2002.

This is NOT what I would do, but as one possibility, GO DIGITAL! I think this is exactly the kind of image digital imaging is good at.

Besides that, as others suggested, use medium format and pay close attention to lighting. But I also like to point out that you should select paper carefully. With proper choice of paper, you should be able to get those look out of TX in stock D-76d (preferrably the second roll or add a bit of bromide). Don't tell me bromide doesn't change the curve shape a lot; it changes something else - more local structure of the image. Soma AGFA, Konica, and Fuji formulae exploit this effect. The reason why D-76 doesn't do this might have something to do with the original intention of D-76 to be used for motion picture applications, but who knows?

-- Ryuji Suzuki (rsuzuki@rs.cncdsl.com), March 31, 2002.

Creamy skin tones are a function of the light and the film you use. A film such a plus x is more red sensitive and therefore hides red blemishes on the skin. Green and yellow filters add texture to the skin. Green like a 58 is used with male portraiture because it gives more texture to the skin making for a more rugged appearance. For a smooth creamy complextion you need good makeup, good lighting, and a red sensitive film such as plus x. Tri x is more blue sensitive as are hp5 and fp4. The delta and tmax films are good for portraiture. But the main ingrediance for smooth complexsions are good light and good makeup. There are many good books out about lighting for portraiture. James

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), March 31, 2002.

Hmmm. So, if I want creamy skin tones all i need to do is remember

use Verichrome in Xtol and Rodinal. put a yellow or yellow-green filter on the lens use Tri-X dont use Tri-x use Delta 100 quality of light more than film and developer Harvey's 777 use Ilford XP-2 Super. use T-Max 100 - PMK use Delta films, Acros and TMX use larger format go DIGITAL use TX in stock D-76d use good makeup, good lighting, and a red sensitive film

I've seen creamy skin from HP5+ Nobody mentioned a red filter, so i will.

I even got creamy skin tones with FP4+ in Xtol once. However, that negative printed vastly different and at times very un-creamily depending on what paper and developer combination I used. I finally settled on Forte PWT+ with a glycin developer. But thats another confusing thread. I believe Sturges uses Tri-X in HC-110, in 8x10, on Oriental Warmtone when it was available

-- Wayne (wsteffen@skypoint.com), March 31, 2002.

That was SUPPOSED to look like a list, not a run-on paragraph. Oh well

-- Wayne (wsteffen@skypoint.com), March 31, 2002.

All of the advice above seems to be on the mark. In my experience, lighting, makeup, the occasional filter (e.g. a yellow-green or even orange to minimize freckles and other marks), and especially format all seem to have a greater effect on skin tones than one’s choice of film.

That said, with relatively pale subjects, my best results in 35mm -- the creamiest and most appealing skin tones -- have come with Tri-X and Agfa’s APX100, both developed in Xtol. Perhaps there’s something unique about the spectral sensitivity curves of these two films? Delta 100 has also has a nice look, but there does seem to be something special about the two older emulsions. If you need speed, the new Delta 400 is also worth a try; I haven't experimented with it enough to make an authoritative judgement, but a number of knowledgeable posters to this board have praised it highly.

As others have noted, T400CN also works well, and when shot at 100 or even 50 or 32 it will block up enough to make most skin problems disappear, but the look is entirely different and I prefer traditional B&W for most subjects.

Good luck!

-- Charles Ruberto (charles_ruberto@attglobal.net), April 01, 2002.

I would like to repeat Xosni's question. Well someone define what is ment but "creamy skintone"-PLEASE.

-- Garry D. Lewis (erind@sbcglobal.net), April 02, 2002.

"Appears creamlike"

-- Wayne (wsteffen@skypoint.com), April 02, 2002.

Creamy skin is similar to flowing water caught by a slow shutter speed. The textures and change in values are more of a continuum rather than being sharply defined.

-- jennifer (photomatic99@yahoo.com), April 02, 2002.

I would have to agree with the filter suggestion. Yellow or orange would be a good start. Regards. Ken

-- Ken Bruno (salmon70@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

Two Points:

Everyone is talking about film (the original topic) but no one mentions printing. With B&W the "performance" is in the printing. While a fine grained negative, properly developed, is necessary (the score) the final effect will come from artful printing.

Jock Sturges shoots an 8x10 view camera and this certainly contributes to the beautiful skin tones he gets. Ditto Edward Weston. Ralph Gibson would be an example of "non-creamy" (chunky?????) skin tones but he shoots and processes for grain and a gritty appearance.

-- Ron Gratz (rkgratz@mtu.edu), April 03, 2002.

There are people that likes skin tones like the ones you get with Technical Pan that has extended red sensitivity, and there are other people who likes the results with extra blue sensitive films like APX and Efke 25/50. Creamy? Don't understand the term... Tech Pan/or yellow or orange filter plus a soft filter?

-- Patric (jenspatricdahlen@hotmail.com), April 05, 2002.