I've penciled in September 11th, 2002, as a day off. I'm going to reflect on the day, go into The City with 1 camera, 1 lens, and 1 type of film, and shoot all day the other people of The City as they also reflect and ponder. I will spend pretty much the whole day in introspective silence and reflection. What are your plans?

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), March 12, 2002

Answers

Ken, That sounds like a great idea and I relate to your sentiments!!! I really thought about what I'd be diong until now, but now I'm I think I'll be doing much the same as you. Thanks for posting this on the forum!

-- Ken Prager (pragerproperties@worldnet.att.net), March 12, 2002.

Sorry, I meant to say "I really HADN'T thought about what I'd be doing until now"...

-- Ken Prager (pragerproperties@worldnet.att.net), March 12, 2002.

I don't know if it will be ready by 2002, but SOMETIME I plan to stand on whatever structure is built at Ground Zero with a list of the 3000+- victims fron NY, PA and DC in my pocket - and just watch the Hudson roll by on a beautiful day. I presume the Leica will accompany me.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 12, 2002.

Pat and I went to the Washington Cathedral, went to the War Memorial Chapel, and prayed for the souls of those whose lives were destroyed in those attacks. We couldn't bring ourselves to pick up our cameras. Instead, we just went and prayed for our friends who died on that day - - - and those who we did not know who died also. We quietly said a special prayer for the person who said "Let's Roll!" and who - - - along with his companion passengers - - - probably saved the Capitol of our Nation.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), March 12, 2002.

I plan to be at work- hopefully that is appropriate tribute to the 3000 people who died hard at work.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 12, 2002.

I hope to be somewhere documenting the destruction and distortion of civilian lives that has resulted and will continue to build up in the War against Terror - i.e. the extension of the American Empire - for which the WTC was just a shallow pretext. I doubt the WTC itself will cross my mind, although the loss of life in the last six months anywhere has been lamentable.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 12, 2002.

Well done mate! I have reflected on the effect on us out here in the Australian Bush. In fact, the whole world has been affected. What I like about the American diplomacy is that the Americans have adopted the Wilsonian Doctrine. In other words, Ethics, Liberty, Equality, and Democracy do matter. Don't get me wrong, at times the Septics are hypocrats. But generally, Americans stand up for and are at the leading edge for those things that will improve civility in this world. I only have one thing to say to my Yank friends.....Lets Roll!

-- Paul Nelson (clrfarm@westnet.com.au), March 12, 2002.

God bless America :)

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), March 12, 2002.

Ken, Yes I also plan on taking that day off. I was in tribeca that day and saw all the chaos first hand. I have been affected by the horror of that day and must pay my respects at ground zero. If you plan to come to NY let me know, we should hook up. Thanks for great topic.

-- John Abela (jamriman@yahoo.com), March 12, 2002.

i plan to be gone travelling on that day for a couple of months, if the US hasn't blown up east-asia by that time

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), March 12, 2002.

I hope to do something - some volunteer activity - to help my fellow Americans and to honor those brave professionals who rushed in to save lives. I hope the rest of you saw the CBS special on the NYC firefighters on Sunday. Those men and women are a precious memory.

-- Seth Honeyman (shoneyma@nycap.rr.com), March 12, 2002.

The loss of life on Sept. 11 is lamentable but let us also remember that many, many, many innocent Afgan civilians have paid with a bounty of suffering in the aftermath. War is the ultimate example of man's inhumanity to man... that's why some of the most powerful images are documented during wars. OT: RE: the American empire... It seems that the next major hurdle for Bush is the escalating political/economic tension between the USA and China. China will become the next major powerhouse; of that I am sure. However, they seem to want NOTHING to do with the States. And who can blame them? Why do you need a trade partner who will sell you goods if they won't give your consumer base any buying power? Just recently a document was "leaked" from the White House stating that there were several countries that they would consider nuking and China was one of them. Coincidence or a ploy to get enough world attention to kickstart talks with China?

There are only three types of people when it comes to politics. Those who manipulate, those who suffer, and those who are amused by it all.

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), March 12, 2002.

Huh? The fact is that China has chosen to pursue an export-driven development strategy & the U.S. is China's largest export market, whether China likes it or not. As protectionist as the U.S. can be (as shown by the recent steel dispute), no other country is as willing to buy Chinese products, which means U.S. consumers are doing more than their share in increasing the buying power of Chinese consumers.

As per China being a potential nuclear target of the U.S., get real! Do you really think that China doesn't have the U.S. programmed into its ICBMs (along w/India, Russia, & Japan)?

-------------

It seems that the next major hurdle for Bush is the escalating political/economic tension between the USA and China. China will become the next major powerhouse; of that I am sure. However, they seem to want NOTHING to do with the States. And who can blame them? Why do you need a trade partner who will sell you goods if they won't give your consumer base any buying power? Just recently a document was "leaked" from the White House stating that there were several countries that they would consider nuking and China was one of them. Coincidence or a ploy to get enough world attention to kickstart talks with China?

-- Chris Chen (furcafe@NOSPAMcris.com), March 12, 2002.

I bought a Canon 17-35 f/2.8L in memorial of all the fools who believed the official version of the 911 tale. Dog bless Amerika.

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), March 12, 2002.

So what is the unofficial version, which presumably you would consider more accurate, Peter?

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), March 12, 2002.

Yah, I'd like to know too, Peter, before your post gets deleted. What a crackpot thing to say. I'm offended.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), March 12, 2002.

Fee fie foe fum - I smell a conspiracy theory...

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 12, 2002.

I heard the terrorist pilots were CIA operatives acting on orders from the US government (in collaboration with the Roman Catholic Church and secretly funded by the Jewish Banking Consortium) in order to provide justification for the first round in the worldwide, systematic slaughter and assimilation of all non-Judeo-Christian cultures. Wait 'til you see what they have in store for the Hindus and Buddhists . . .

(Did I leave out any of the usual suspects? Other than extraterrestrials?)

The "truth" as reported (and reported and reported and reported) is horrible enough and reflects badly enough on everyone involved. Is it really necessary to make things up?

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), March 12, 2002.

Ken. Good for you. Whatever anyone can do to remember this day is a good thing, in my mind. Unfortunately, the American public has a very short memory (like a collective attention deficit syndrome). There is a tendency to forget very quickly that which does not directly affect people in their every day lives.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 12, 2002.

Poltics isn't a topic I care to delve into (certainly not here), but as regards the world's attitude toward the US War on Terrorism, sure I'd like it if the people in other countries loved and respected us for our ideals, but I'll settle for them fearing us for our military and economic power if that's what it takes to keep us safe. And I suspect that had those planes crashed into Beijing or Moscow instead of NY, the Afghan citizenry--those innocent people being used as human shields by murderous cowards hiding in caves--would not be suffering any less right now.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), March 12, 2002.

Yesterdays shots of the Pentagon ...

I understand that the plan is to have the entire job done by Sept. 11, 2002.

-- Michael Rivers (mrivers@mac.com), March 12, 2002.

We as photographers have at our disposal, the most powerful tool to change the world. Our Images display not only the beauty of our surroundings, but also the uglynes and brutality that that we inflict upon each other. As an example I offer Vietnam, the images returned from that war not only changed the opinion of a nation, it changed the view of the entire world. So I feel we should use our tool to educate the world that the leaders of all nations primary obligation is to ensure that thier citizens are safe and have the basic human rights that they are entitled to

-- Andy Wagner (awagner@midwest-express.com), March 12, 2002.

Jay, we'd probably love and respect you for your ideals if they weren't imposed with the big stick - and your post is indicative of how prone the US is to resort to its use. It makes it hard for us to take you at face value.

I think it was Jung who said that a country's (or culture's) official values are in a compensatory relationship with its actual actions and policies. The US is the most predatory, aggressive country in the world today, with a unique quota of sugary sentiment to back up its role as the global rapist. We can only grasp at the straw that history clearly demonstrates that all systems of domination and oppression fail eventually.

September 11th was a historical event - this means that it has its place in a historical web of causes and effects, and can therefore only be understood by looking at the preceding history. Unfortunately, most US comment starts with the premise that it was a unique event without reason or motive.

Time to grow up.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 13, 2002.

Andy, while I'd love to be able to agree with you, I think the seventies are long over. The media are totally managed nowadays - just look at the disgraceful, fawning, uncritical coverage of the Gulf War in '91.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 13, 2002.

I feel like using some really strong language in this post but I won't, out of respect for the majority of forum members who don't deserve to be subjected to it. I'm not a US citizen but I'm incensed by the anti-US sentiments expressed in this thread and I can hardly believe some of the insensitive and offensive remarks I'm reading.

People who have expressed anti-American feelings here should pause to consider how much they would enjoy a world in which terrorists have a free hand. If the USA doesn't deal with that threat, who will? Certainly not a bunch of mealy-mouthed European politicians, who promised help but, in most cases, have done nothing.

And talking of the many Afghans who have suffered as a result of the USA's reaction to the WTC atrocity is unrealistic; do you think they would have been happier if the Taliban had been left in power? Would you? A man without a beard, or a woman not covered up completely, gets publicly beaten in the street; the public is forced to watch executions (read: murders) in the football stadium; children aren't allowed to play games; music is banned; women aren't allowed to work for pay, even if they have nobody else to support them. All of this was done in the name of a great religion, just as the Nazis used to say: "Gott ist mit uns". "God will provide," said the Taliban: Well, He did: he provided the US forces and their allies to wipe them off the face of the Earth. And good riddance!

"Lest We Forget" is the subject of this thread and most apt it is: it seems some of our members have forgotten already.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), March 13, 2002.

I haven't forgotten anything Ray, I just happen to disagree with the standard model. Sorry if that gets you worked up.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 13, 2002.

Hello Ken. "Lest We Forget" ... An expression coined in 1918 in memory of our ANZAC's ... Australia New Zealand Army Corps. Young men who fought and were prepared to give up their lives for their country during W.W.1. Regards. Sheridan Zantis,Australia.

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), March 13, 2002.

"Predatory, aggressive"?! At least we're not actually annexing nations to our "empire" like the British & other European powers in their heyday.

-- Chris Chen (furcafe@NOSPAMcris.com), March 13, 2002.

Sorry...

http://homepage.mac.com/mrivers/WTC/PhotoAlbum14.html

-- Michael Rivers (mrivers@mac.com), March 13, 2002.

Chris - well you are, of course. It's just slightly more subtle these days. I don't condone the behaviour of the Brits then any more than I do that of the US now.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 13, 2002.

The United States is the most generous, unselfish nation in history. What other nation has ever rebuilt the nations it conquored in war, then set them free? We could rule the world if we chose to do so, yet our desire is only to maintain our own freedom and advance the cause of freedom around the world. And for this we are hated by those who prefer ignorance and oppression. We are also hated by some effete Europeans, the very ones whose countries we twice saved from oppressors in the 20th century.

Rob, I respect you greatly as a photographer. Because this is a free country, you and Peter have a right to voice your political opinions, and I would, as Voltaire said, "defend to the death your right to do so." But having said that, I will also exercise my freedom to say that your views are somewhere beyond despicablilty.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), March 13, 2002.

Dave, I haven't got the faintest what Peter's political viewpoint is, so let's not put me in the same basket as him until we know more about it.

As for despicable - what can I say, except that I'm not surprised, nor perturbed. The last six months have sharpened and defined my politics for me, although they're still evolving. That has been a good thing for me, and I don't think I'm alone in having questioned many things in this way. I believe that can only be positive. Apart from anything else, it has given a focus to my photography. You'll see the results.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 13, 2002.

Well I didn't intend to stir up quite so much polarity with this post, but I guess that's not surprising with an event of this sort. My intent, and my hope, is that regardless of your views and sentiments, that you seize the opportunity to capture them on film wherever and however you find/see them. That will be my intention next September.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), March 13, 2002.

Amen, Ken. If I could choose I'd be in Afghanistan.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 13, 2002.

"global rapist"

Two generations ago, Americans fought and died so Europeans and others would not have to live under the rule of Nazi Germany. A generation ago,

Americans fought and died so the world would not live under Soviet Communism. Today, Americans are fighting and dying to rid the world of these terrorist thugs who would like to take us back to the thirteenth century and impose their religion on the rest of us.

I have no idea where Rob's hatred of America came from, but I am certain that if it were not for so many brave Americans (and their allies), he would not have the freedom to say the horrible and disgusting things he has posted.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 13, 2002.

Eliot - I don't hate America, but I am certainly disturbed by the way things are going. As for having no idea, maybe you don't read the newspapers?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 13, 2002.

"The US is the most predatory, aggressive country in the world"

Rob, your hyperbole is astounding! Even you do not believe this I am sure. America is not always right (who is?) but it does have a right to defend itself. There are always two or more sides to the story. Americas "problem" is that it is too rich, too powerful and the only country able to stand up for itself. That is a problem for it, but it does not mean its enemies are right, nor that you or I would prefer to live in the societies of its enemies. Sometime hard choices have to be made. With Al-Qaeda I know where I stand. The underlying causes why some people support them is something else and much of it cannot be undone or indeed countered by logical argument. The war is probably the best thing that has happened to Afghanistan for a century. There is a prospect (albeit a dim and distant one) of the rule of law and economic development to benefit its citizens with the world taking an active interest. Of course capitalism is not perfect and can be a pain in the ass, but if you know of a better system then please point it out to us and we might go and live there.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), March 13, 2002.

"I don't hate America, but..."

Don't insult our intelligence. You made this statement in an earlier context.

"The US is the most predatory, aggressive country in the world today, with a unique quota of sugary sentiment to back up its role as the global rapist. We can only grasp at the straw that history clearly demonstrates that all systems of domination and oppression fail eventually."

This is one of the most vile and hateful things I've ever heard said about America. Even the far left in this country doesn't say things like this. This is not hyperbole, it is pure, unadulterated hatred. If you don't think so you are inserious denial. I hope Tony R will delete this thread soon.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 13, 2002.

Rob either is deliberately trolling, or he really means what he says. If he does, let's ask the State Department to give him a Diplomatic license plate for his car - - - one that begins with FC.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), March 13, 2002.

I wonder how we'd (including me) respond if some Al Quaeda dude showed up here with a Leica and wanted some advice or to show us some pictures or something. I don't even know what I'd do as moderator, besides being inclined to call the FBI (if we knew somehow that he WAS who he said he was). Fact is, when I read the anti-American crap that has been posted here, I'm not sure if we don't already have some Al Q. dude posting under somebody elsees name! Tsk tsk... Yes I'll gladly and proudly prune with a flourish this infected rose petal of a thread the anti-American venom that has poisoned it, but I like the thread itself and its on-topic content.

As to Ken's original question, I think it's a great idea. I will do the exact same thing, except that we might be flying to France in September. I have this great desire to make a sort of pilgrimage to New York to see the memorial towers of light.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), March 13, 2002.

Several individuals have asked me - - - back channel - - what that State Department " FC" license plate meant. Well, early on, the Soviet Union had "UR" on their Diplomatic license plates. They screamed, often and loudly, that the "UR" clearly designated their automobiles as being assigned to the USSR Embassy in Washington. So, the State Department changed their license plates from "UR" to "FC" - - - - - "F*****g Communists. "

Further, the Deponent Sayest Not.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), March 13, 2002.

Hello,

Sorry, but I must chime in.

The greatest joy I derive from this forum is not the good information I receive about Leica products and photography. (Though the information is wonderful)

The greatest joy is associating with people from all over the world and sharing ideas and insights. I am especially touched by the comments of Ray Moth, among others; people not from the USA, willing to graciously share opinions, differ, agree, and disagree.

To steal Ken's title--Lest we forget--citizens from over 100 countries were murdered on September 11th. I believe Muhammad Chisty (forgive me if I spelled your name incorrectly) chronicled the roster in an earlier post.

Vitriolic spewing by Rob will not undo the greatness of the USA. Nor will it undo the greatness of people world over who loathe terrorism, and the horrible apathy that supports it. Bless the people and their countries that support the USA in facing this scourge head on.

Rob's photography does not credential him as a sociologist, politician, pundit, or leader. Equating the act of wholesale mass murder with a country's right to defend itsself puts him in the same list with Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Tojo etc. His manners are lacking. Most of us see his perspective for what it is, and I will refrain from clarifying the odor issuing from it.

And warm thanks to those thoughtful and kind people that remember the victims of the tragedy, where ever you live. I fear the purveyors of murder and mayhem are not finished with their dirty work. We will need you and your kind more than ever in the years to come.

-- David Smith (dssmith3@rmci.net), March 13, 2002.

Certainly all of these viewpoints would make for a very diverse documentation. BTW, "The City" can be any city anywhere. New York is the obvious location, but judging from the past 6 months, opportunities will be available most everywhere else - in one form or another.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), March 13, 2002.

"Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Tojo "

Wow! Up there with the greats, eh!

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 14, 2002.

"I fear the purveyors of murder and mayhem are not finished with their dirty work."

My point exactly.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 14, 2002.

I'll just add one thing, and then Tony can delete all my contributions and anyone who wants can contact me off list. I'd like to make a distinction between hatred and anger. I'm angry at the way the US is polarising the world geopolitically and stamping on third world countries, and using the rhetoric of human rights to justify it, when they have consistently demonstrated their contempt for the international courts and human rights around the world over the last forty years (check out Nicaragua and the Gulf War for two of the most easily researched and blatant contraventions). That makes me angry, sure. But I don't _hate_ the US. Hatred doesn't get you anywhere, IMO. Hatred is what Brian Reid of the LUG expressed when he said that he wanted the Taliban dead - how many tens of thousands of people (misguided and often brutal people, sure) is that? At that moment I decided that there was no place on the LUG for me. I have seen a very disturbing increase in aggressive and anti-person rhetoric in the public arena - from "ending countries" onwards - whether from politicians or on the internet forums I participate in, and it bodes no good, IMO. There has been a general glorification of violence and revenge and wilfull ignorance of the decades long history of oppression and exploitation that led to 911 (among many other expressions of anti-first world sentiment) and which is now being intensified in the name of freedom and security.

If that puts me in the same boat with Pol Pot in some posters' minds, then I can only conclude that they have invested heavily in not seeing the way the world is being run. Maybe if they took a good look at it, they'd begin to question their right to enjoy such a disproportionately affluent lifestyle off the backs of hundreds of millions of the dispossessed. And I do not exclude myself from that categorisation.

OK Tony, you can start hitting the delete button now.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 14, 2002.

Tony, Americans believe in freedom of speech.

Not just freedom of speech except for speech or views some listeners may feel are anti-American.

Not speech or views voiced solely by Americans.

Not speech that is only pleasant.

Not speech that is only unemotional or not angry.

The man has a certain point of view. He endorses no violence towards anybody.

Leave Rob's posts up.

We fundamentally stand for diversity of opinion and viewpoint. Not unanimity and erasing of "unpleasantness".

Don't we?

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 14, 2002.

There is too much rhetoric here. Those that stand and blindly wave the American flag and those that stand and burn the American flag are mostly two sides of the same coin. They are people who are carried away by emotion and are unable or unwilling to dedicate enough thought to the problem. This is a problem that requires thought, analysis, self-criticism, the willingness to admit one's wrongs and the determination to make sacrifices to improve the situation.

Rob does some American flag burning, and this does not help the discussion. But he also contributes an important and thoughtful viewpoint that should be heard and considered. For what it's worth I work in the business world and have sometimes in the past had meetings in the WTC. So I have no simpathy with the terrorists.

Enrique Munoz

-- bmw330 (dem331@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

I have a friend who was on the 50th floor and she ran for her life and made it. My fond memory of the WTC has been engulf in horrors even now whenever I switch on CNN. I reflect on it everyday.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), March 14, 2002.

I travel quite a bit around Asia and in my line of work I see a lot of suffering and injustice in this part of the world. To be on topic I would like my photography to reflect how people interact with their environment because you cannot separate the two. All I can say is that Injustice breeds resentment which breeds contempt which breeds hatred which breed violence which breed retribution which creates death and destruction. This is the plight of the other three quarters and you can't help them because contempt has already set in. I don't know Rob but I suspect he is well traveled and quite a cynic.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), March 14, 2002.

Reading all this, I find it hard to see that Rob's posts are "anti- American" or "flag-burning" or anything else that might be considered subversive.

What happened to the days when photographers were, dare I say it, liberals who challenged brutal goverments and stood up for the rights of the oppressed?

If someone from Magnum were to weigh in on the topics of this thread, some of the folks here might be horrified at what they had to say.

One of the ancillary tragedies of 9/11 has been the death of outrage. The press are aquiescent; ordinary Americans are cleaning their deer rifles now that Neighborhood Watch groups have been asked to be on the lookout for "terrorist activities"; American citizens wearing turbans are being brutalized; no one knows how many hundreds of immigrants are in lock-up without access to lawyers; the (now dead) hijackers were just granted student visas from the INS--this used to be BAD.

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), March 14, 2002.

Ray, I'm not a cynic - maybe you meant "sceptic"? If I was a cynic, I wouldn't give a toss about the exploitation and oppression I see around me, I'd be trying to make a fast buck out of it. I'm stupid enough to be on the side of the losers, the dispossessed. Which is where a photographer, IMO, should always position himself, and where the photographers the members of this forum profess to admire have always stood. Evidently the admiration goes no further than wanting to own the same make of camera. What a disappointment.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 14, 2002.

"The US is the most predatory, aggressive country in the world today, with a unique quota of sugary sentiment to back up its role as the global rapist." = flag burning rhetoric

"The United States is the most generous, unselfish nation in history." = flag waving rhetoric

All that these type of comments do is get others worked up. They do not help to get all of us closer to understanding and solving our major problem: how to make the world a better, safer place for all humankind.

By the way, I have simpathy for both of the views expressed above, just in the same way that I have simpathy for both sides of the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

-- enrique munoz (dem331@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

Rob, I suppose trying to discuss these issues with you, especially in this kind of forum, is a waste of time. However, I cannot allow some of the points you raised to go unanswered. The idea that the U.S. is oppressive and exploitative is essentially a socialist idea, which seeks to level things by bringing the haves down to the level of the have-nots. The uniquely American philosophy is to level by elevating the have-nots, rather than by lowering the haves. That is why we seek to extend our way of life around the globe. The best guarantee that I will retain my rights is to make sure that others have the same rights.

America does not "enjoy...a disproportionately affluent lifestyle off the backs of hundreds of millions of the dispossessed." America is wealthy because we have a political system based on the northern European reformation which provides a philosphical basis for a balance between freedom and order, and a religious influence which actively encourages work and enterprise. In America, as no where else in the history of the world, people are free to become what they are capable of becoming. That's why people around the world want to come to America. Mexico does not find it necessary to guard its borders against hordes of illegal immigrants from the U.S.

Indians, an intelligent and industrious people with which you are especially familiar, generally find life difficult in their own country because its religious system holds the masses in rigid castes which proscribe their opportunities from the moment they are born, and its political system is a morass of bureaucracy which discourages initiative. But when Indians come to America and are free from such restrictive laws and social mores, their intelligence and industry are almost invariably rewarded with success. And being, as I said, an intelligent people, they save their money to bring as many as possible of their brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and cousins to this land of opportunity.

Third world countries are poor, not because they lack natural and human resources, not because we, the rich, are raping and pillaging them, and not because we are oppressing them. They are oppressed and kept in poverty by their own political and religious systems, which make it impossible for people to achieve the progress and productivity of which they would otherwise be capable. Their goverments are corrupt and rapacious, and the people are powerless to change things because they have no basis in their world-views upon which to establish the balance of freedom and order necessary for genuine progress. If a dictator is overthrown, he is only replaced with another equally oppresive.

Is the U.S. "polarising the world?" Good. Let there be a clear distinction between our way of life and all the others. The oppressed masses of the third world apparently have less difficulty seeing the light than you do, because they are voting with their feet at every opportunity, even (often) risking their lives to come share in the American dream.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), March 14, 2002.

enrique, let me be quite clear about this. I don't live in the US. I don't give a damn about the American flag or any flag, British, Italian, Indian or whatever. My only interest is in ordinary people (the "unfamous" people, as MEM said) and their struggle to achieve prosperity and stability in a world in which the cards are heavily stacked against them. Because I'm one of them. And this could be the story of anyone on this list, however comfortable our lives may be at this moment. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't own a single piece of photographic equipment.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 14, 2002.

Rob, Ok....a sceptic, which what every good journalist should be; to question authority and not take the official line. But at the same time a responsible journalist should not be politically biased towards the left or the right. It just sounded like you may be a bit over the edge with your comments.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), March 14, 2002.

Does anyone believe that Salgado leaves his biases in his Paris loft when heads for the refugee camps in Africa?

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), March 14, 2002.

Rob, I agree with some, may be many of your views. But why do you get such negative reactions to your posts on this subject? Is it because the others have no clue, or are evil? Or is it because they feel hurt and attacked by the way you express certain things? That is all I am trying to say, and now I will shut up because I never realy wanted to discuss politics on this forum, I simply could not resist.

-- enrique munoz (dem331@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

a sceptic, which what every good journalist should be; to question authority and not take the official line. But at the same time a responsible journalist should not be politically biased towards the left or the right

Sorry, but what dream world are you living in? This notion of the objective journalist/photojournalist is a utopian dream. All journalists (reporters/photographers) bring their own subjective views to what they are reporting/photographing. This cannot be avoided. If you believe that the news is objective, then I have a bridge in brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

"The US is the most predatory, aggressive country in the world today, with a unique quota of sugary sentiment to back up its role as the global rapist. We can only grasp at the straw that history clearly demonstrates that all systems of domination and oppression fail eventually."

Rob. What part of this statement expresses cynicism. You clearly state your wish that America be destroyed just as all of the other great dictatorships were. These statements express hatred not anger. Except you are not honest enough to admit it. You hide behind pop psychology and try to justify your views based on "skepticism" and rationale analysis of past historic events. But these views express nothing but hatred. And I remind you that but for Americans and their allies, you would probably be living under Nazi German or Soviet Communist rule, then see what would happen if you made the type of statements you make. You are basically a coward.

I won't be as charitable as others on this thread. I will not defend your right to spew your bile as some others posters have.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 14, 2002.

lest we not forget .. that we not lose our conscience and our objectivity in waving the flag. Nationalism without inquiry and dialogue is an ever-widening open wound that never heals.

I didn't understand much of what Dave Jenkins said. it sounds much like the Christian and Jehovah Witness testimony that comes to my door every so often to share with me the 'true' (and only) meaning of life. I also think the Spaniards had much the same intent when they visited unenlightened Mexico for the first time.

as in our photography, use your heart and mind to make that lasting image or affect change in our world.

peace

-- daniel taylor (lightsmythe@agalis.net), March 14, 2002.

Maybe Leica should include literature about the National Rifle Association in the envelope with the Passport Warranty. Any takers?

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), March 14, 2002.

Well, since this is evidently still a live topic...

Eliot, the American Empire will eventually fail. It's inevitable, they all do sooner or later. In fact, it seems to be about to bankrupt itself with military procurement! Of course, its place will be taken by other dominating powers.

Have I anywhere said that I wish to see Americans killed? I don't think so, although even I can't be bothered going back over this entire thread to find out. That would express hatred, IMO.

Dave, we will certainly never agree, and maybe that's not a bad thing. I disagree with just about everything you've said, so let's just leave it there.

Enrique - you could well be right, I was a bit aggressive. But the continual exaltation of America's loss of innocence (i.e., the right hand not seeing what the left hand was up to all this time) has got on my nerves a bit over the last few months.

If anyone believes that I'm an Al Qaeda operative or a Taleban supporter, then I suggest they take a look at my website. And Tony, this really is me - I'm sure you can check my ISP to verify that.

Did I miss anything?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 14, 2002.

Maybe Leica should include literature about the National Rifle Association in the envelope with the Passport Warranty. Any takers?

The NRA hasn't learned that appeasement doesn't work, so no. If, on the other hand, you wanted to send literature for the Gun Owners of America, or Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership, then I'd be in agreement. Of course, I don't expect rational debate on the issue of gun rights any more, nor do I see the connection between Leica and firearm ownership...

-- Derek Zeanah (derek@zeanah.com), March 14, 2002.

Hmm. Politics really bring out everyone's emotions, don't they? Nothing really to add since I'm trying not to get too embroiled in this topic. But since this is a photography board, I thought I'd share a photo I took in NYC the day after the US started bombing Afghanistan. He was the lone dissenter at an anti-war protest in Times Square.

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

Great picture, Richard. Very moving.

A lone man, expressing his sincere opinion, unsuppressed.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 14, 2002.

Richard, thanks, we needed that! I love the photograph, particularly the "U.S." part. Thank God I'm within the majority here.

No, I've changed my mind. I'm not deleting or modifying this thread in any way. Reason: The good things here greatly overwhelm the bad ones. This thread is a vehicle to publicly display this. *whew* How's THAT for some decisive moderation, huh???? HUH??? :-)

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), March 14, 2002.

Well, it may take some guts to hold a placard like that during a peace demo (which should be peaceful, though?), but he had the big guns on his side.

Now a peace protester at a pro-war demo - that would be courageous, I think.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 15, 2002.

Er, Rob, no one claimed the guy was brave. Just sincere, going by the revealing pic, and unopposed, which is a tribute to the people he is amongst at that time.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 15, 2002.

I'll add one final note to this by now (mercifully dead) thread. No- one has written me any angry or abusive emails at my personal address. I think that says something very positive about the level of civility on this forum. Thanks everyone.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 15, 2002.