Why does the M7 not offer fully mechanical mode not just two shutter speeds

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002

Answers

This argument is getting tiresome. For those who want a fully mechanical M camera, Leica has made these since 1954 (when the M3 was introduced). There are many on the used market, and you can still buy the M6TTL (at least for now) whose shutter is fully operational without batteries. The rest of us can remember to take an extra set of batteries along when we use a camera like the M7. It seems to me it is the photographer who can't remeber to take a functional battery who made the mistake, not the camera manufacturer.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 11, 2002.

No place for more gears. The 1/60 and 1/125 are on the same cam.

-- Lucien (Lucien_vd@yahoo.fr), March 11, 2002.

Thanks Lucien. AF SLRs generally have NO mechanical speeds, so if the battery fails, you are out of luck. For manual cameras with electronic shutters, most of these provide only one manual speed (eg., 1/60 sec). The M7 provides two manual speeds and so is ahead of the game in that respect. But it is a small matter to always keep an extra set of batteries in your camera bag in case of battery failure. I have never run into this problem in my many years of photography.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 11, 2002.

If the M6TTL is discontinued:

1). This will significantly raise the value of all fully mechanical M's, 'used', user, and collector.

2). It would be the end of an era. Leica would lose their unique fully mechanical proposition. It will be left 'Mid-way" between fully mechanical and auto. Whether this hybrid proposition will be enough of a difference for them to survive and be successful would have to be seen.

I truly hope they keep a fully mechanical line, whether it be the M6TTL or a revised version of it.

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 11, 2002.

Sparkie, if some (reliable) past posts are true, they have already stopped making them.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), March 11, 2002.

in my opinion 30 and 60 of a second would have been more useful...

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), March 11, 2002.

*choke* I better hold onto my M6TTL's then. It'll cost me more to buy another one later if I sold mine now. By the way Giles, I ordered a M3 advance lever and VF and ST metal levers M2/M3 style from Leica UK, for just under £20!! Havent recieved them yet and am going to fit them on my M4. Will keep you posted.

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 11, 2002.

many people seem to believe that leica's guiding design principle -- at least pre-M7 -- was to build the finest mechanical camera possible. i think this is completely wrong. the leica goal, from the first barnack camera, has been to build a small, convenient, quiet camera for unobtrusive action photography. there have always been better cameras for posed portraits, product shots, and still life/landscape photography. leica's niche is photo-j, candid street photography, and low lite flash-free shots. none of these intended uses are hindered a whit by the use of an electronic shutter with AE capability. indeed, the camera will become far faster to use, making it much easier to capture the "decisive moment" reliably. if HCB had the choice of AE do you think he would have hesitated for a minute? sadly, the leica camera has also become a cult object, a symbol of wealth. It is also an icon of the pre-computer age, sort of John Henry to the F5/G2/T3 steam drill. It has the same nostalgic allure as a breguet type XX or a '50s rolex explorer 1. those who love the marque for these reasons doubtless will mourn the advent of the elctronic leica. and that's o.k. it's nice for there to be a few things that never change (an '02 m6 is pretty much the same camera as a '53 m3). but don't blast leica for trying to stay afloat amid difficult times. the company has done an amazing job of introducing new products over the last five years (five major lens additions/redesigns and gobs of new accessories), despite falling profits and sales (have they posted a profit for any quarter since the reorg??). the simple facts are that: (1) many consumers have been clamoring for an electronic leica since the cle appeared in 1980, (2) leica retailers need something new to get people into the stores, (3) the m6 has to compete with hundreds of thousands of (essentially identical) screw/m2/m3/m4/m4-2/m4-p/m5/m6 leica bodies avaliable on the used market, (4) prices for CLEs and m5s have gone thru the roof lately, and (5) konica sold a fair number of the highly flawed hexar RFs. it would have been nuts for leica NOT to test the AE waters. i think they deserve a lot of credit for taking their time, and producing a camera that retains so many of the M features (10-12 ms release time, ultra quiet cloth shutter [apparently even quieter thant the m6], all metal construction [now with brass top and bottom plates a la m3], etc etc). i hope the community gives the camera AND the company its full support. even if you don't love the iea of the m7, i'm sure you wouldn't mind seeing a recomputed 50mm summicron or summilux or a 75mm asph 'lux!! those who are sad to see an electronic leica will be even sadder when the company goes bust and sells its name to canon.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 11, 2002.

oh, and as for why "only" two manual speeds, that is pretty well covered in erwin puts' review of the m7 that may be read on his own website.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 11, 2002.

Roger makes an excellent point. Any new camera made by Leica will be competing with all of the M2,3,4,5,4-2,4-P,6, and 6TTL on the used market. The problem for them is the longevity of their M cameras, so many older generation cameras being still functional. Why would anyone buy a new M if it didn't offer some degree of automation not available previously. It seems to me that the features incorporated into the M7 are a reasonable choice, including many not previously available. My guess is that it will be commercially successful.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 11, 2002.

Why do most pros carry a machanical camera as back up.Due to probs with batteries.Runout,failure,none obtainable in location.Did not take anought.OR FORGOT. To read some of the comments posted nobody has every forgot anything ,they are perfect people.The laws of the universe also say... your batteries will fail at the most awkward time and place.How easy to misplace/lose to little silver bats.bottom line take hand held meter get better results,if you loose it etc you can still takr photos anyway.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

M7 seems to defeat the whole idea of leica Ms, will the m8 or m9 be just like a contax g2.Leica need to read their own brochure.It seems to me they are loosing their way.They have done all this before with the R8(NEED I SAY MORE).More gadgets to go wrong,more and more dependancy on the tool doing it for you.I will never forget my batteries going on my nikon 801 at a friends wedding.My understanding of leica Ms is that you take the photo not the camera,that is the whole idea of the camera.Correct me if i am wrong

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

How is your new FlashBangWallopm896.I hear you do not have to bother to turn it on,or even bother to press that bothersome shutter release.Just say take,hold on tight and it whirls around taking photos.It even took some nice photos 40miles away and some of the craters of the moon.l hear is has improved your eye for a good photo and improved your tech skills.And if you do not like what it took just change them in photoshop super to what you thik they should have been like.I am sure it has brought out the real photographer in you.That pink leatherette battery holder for it is really wow,looks as good as the camera.And the company has kept to tradition by othering it in the original colors.Luky you

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

Sorry cannot resist, have to say this.When you change clothes dont forget your batteries.Make sure you have got the right ones.Get your wife to remind when you go out to say dont forget your batteries.Make sure you dont drop them out of your pocket.I just love them anyone got a spare battery for a *****.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

To answer a few points raised. 1.The auto everthing people will never be happy until the camera leaves the house on its own,takes the pictures and returns wagging its tail,while they watch television.They like Leicas as a fashion statement. 2.Leica have survived all these years because of the, so called purists,and many more will join the ranks because the Leica is a purist camera and proud of it.Real photographers undestand these facts. 3.The M6 is the flag ship in the Leica range,the most successful by far and the sales of other products are based on its reputation. 4.The m6 has been so successfull that other manuf have emulated it. For example would we have a metal bodied nikon f5.etc. 3.Leica by introducing the M to the auto everthing market are in a very real danger of loosing those purists who have stuck by them. 4.Nikon already in that market with the fm,hex,volt who are producing cameras now which are mechanical without battery or any other dependancy.I wonder why. 5.Quality non dependancy will always win throught.Even the auto people are starting to get bored with button pressing. 6.If the M7 could be switched to full manual mode i would be happy ,there is a big market among the flashbangers.But Leica to compete in that market changing their flag ship into Fashbang camera will be in the meduim to long term a grave mistake.Flashbangers by their nature always want the latest.The m will end up like the r at the poor end of the market unable to keep up. 7.Better if the m was left alone and compete with a new camera or the r range.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

The point i am trying to make is the M is starting to move into the wrong market.One of the important features on the M was the fact it could be operated in a purely mechanical way.Now only partly,what next on the M8.As for the so called myth i could fill 50 pages of top pros who use mechanical cameras as backup.Get real batteries fail in extreme tempatures ask the manufactures of them.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

I like the M7 and think that Leica have produced their latest camera the right way, but Allen is right in a way too. Leica Ms have always prided themselves on being old-fashioned and their brochures have always concentrated on this aspect. I think to a very large part this is and was their appeal -- to the traditionalist who is interested in the highest optical and mechanical quality, but steers clear of the "electronic ratrace". In this sense the M7 is perhaps the thin end of the wedge. Leica still have the M6TTL on the books, and I think they need to keep their options open if they have already ceased prodcution of this camera. They probably are doing so.

Yes, auto exp is some advantage (but not colossal), but for most people Leica has always meant "manual" -- breaking this taboo for Leica M might mean they are one step closer to being more like every other camera manufacturer - which is not necessarily a good thing for a company that prides itself on being different.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), March 11, 2002.

Allen,

This a cut and paste of the question you have already asked here

-- Lucien (lucien_vd@yahoo.fr), March 11, 2002.

does it matter

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

Why do you think Leica came with a M7 ?

Because some Leica users have asked for it.

Those who don't need it, can always buy the M6TTL.

I like it vary much.

-- Lucien (lucien_vd@yahoo.fr), March 11, 2002.

if you want an electronic shutter with manual speeds, go buy a Nikon Fm3a

-- Pete Su (psu_13@yahoo.com), March 11, 2002.

I'm beginning to think that allen is deliberately trolling.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), March 11, 2002.

for those concerned that the leica m7 is not sufficiently old- fashioned, take heart!! it is, in essence, a rangefinder reissue of the nikkormat EL, circa 1977. all kidding aside, i just got a look at the m7 in person yesterday. it handles just like any m camera. it feels like any m camera. and the shutter sounds like any m camera (except no slow speed whirls -- i kinda miss them). fans of solid, retro mechanical devices will be very happy. this is not the camera of tomorrow (or even of today). and as for all this talk of "pros" carrying around a manual back-up camera, that may have been true at one time, but not so anymore. spare batteries yes, the proverbial nikkormat ftn, no (maybe a spare n90 body). and in all my years of working for a fairly large newspaper, i have never seen a colleague pull an m camera out of his bag as a backup to his main rig. i saw a recent poll in a trade mag asking what cameras (press) photographers use. leica was in the < 1% category.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 11, 2002.

Allen,

Go home...Take two M7s(or one M6 and one M7, or two M6s, or any other permutation or combination of Ms). Either swallow them, drop them out of the nearest window, or, if one of them has a Noctilux, place them some place where its warm, moist and dark.

Follow with a battery chaser.

Believe me folks, I don't get this out of hand too often.

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 11, 2002.

IMHO, a lot of people buying Leica is because of their lens. You can always get Knoica for an automatic body. I best the Japanese can make better electronic body than Germany. Look at Leica R series...

-- Peter (peterl@hotmail.com), March 11, 2002.

Allen , how long do you want M's to stagnate? I have wanted an aperture priority M for 20 years, its here and Im happy. If a 40yo M3 still works and can still be seviced by Leica you will can almost bet M6's have decades of life left. For the rest of us we want Leica M technology at least in the 70's. M8 being like contax? its taken decades just to get aperture priority give me a break, film will be dead before Leica can manage an Autofocus M!

-- Joel Matherson (joel_2000@hotmail.com), March 11, 2002.

Go home...Take two M7s(or one M6 and one M7, or two M6s, or any other permutation or combination of Ms). Either swallow them, drop them out of the nearest window, or, if one of them has a Noctilux, place them some place where its warm, moist and dark.

Follow with a battery chaser.

Only if you let me use your your moon-raker super zoom

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

The 1/60 and 1/125 are on the same cam. The answer....THANKS

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.