B&H / Retrun Of Defective Goods Question

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Large format photography : One Thread

Re: "Did BH Keep Your money Tell Me Please"

As follows, B&H must accept your return.

As a seller of what the law calls "goods", B&H "warrants" - that is a legal term for "promises" - that the item is what it purports to be and that it will work for its intended purpose. So, when you buy something that does not work as it is represented, the law is long settled that a seller violates its common law duty; that it owes to all purchasers on goods as to the fitness for their intended purpose. This duty of fitness can only be waived if goods are sold on an "as is basis", and if you expressly agree to such waiver either by your words or your conduct.

Please distinguish between "B&H's" return policy for "goods" that function properly at the time of your purchase, and "goods" that never worked properly. In this regard, as to properly working "goods", B&H can refuse to accept gooods with missing CPU codes. However, your case of a defective product whold not apply to any claim that a missing CPU sticker preempts B&H accepting your return of its defective product.

For your reference, the New York - City and State - consumer fraud departments will "wring" B&H's neck if they sold you - either knowlingly or unknowlingly - a defective product and if they refuse to either refund your purchase price or give you the same item in a new working condition.

You have a valid claim, do not allow yourself to be intimitated by the B&H return department.

"The Honorable,"

-- Robert J. Triffin (RJTRIFFIN@RCN.COM), February 23, 2002


Hold on just a minute. If the purchaser damages the product independently while in his possession, I would argue no refund is due. The purchaser still has the manufacturer's warranty to fall back on, but he has violated the terms of B&H's return policy when he mutilated the box and tried to swindle the manufacturer out of a rebate. I don't think it's any leap to tie his submission of the rebate request with his being deemed to have accepted the product. I hope B&H will stand their ground. Crooks like this don't need to be rewarded. I think you're putting the "white hat" on the wrong party. The law protects sellers too, you know.

What makes you so "Honorable" anyway?

-- Alec (alecj@bellsouth.net), February 23, 2002.

Kind Sir:

I purchased goods at B&H (enscaps for a 90mm Schneider SuperAngulon, and a 15" TeleOptar) and the WRONG SIZE caps FRONT&REAR were sent to me TWICE. I called B&H Returns Department got an RMA and had no problems whatsoever returning the lenscaps for a full refund including SHIPPING BOTH WAYS, 2-TIMES!! In the end I just purchased LENSWRAPS at a local MART, and saved myself a 3rd RETURN.

Maybe it is the way you have to coax the refund out of them, but if you are NICE to them, they are usually NICE BACK.

Their Bark is Worse Than Their Bite


-- xman (xman@xman.net), February 23, 2002.

The issue presented is: If a product is defective at the time of its sale must aretailer replace it or its purchase price? Certainly, the customer may not retain the manufacturer's rebate if a refund of the sale price is made by the retailer.

Seperately, no retailer with any "smarts" would argue with a customer as to the legitimacy of a request to exchange a purportedly defective product. Please do not confuse a defective product at the time of sale with a product that fails to function after it has been put to use.

As to my being Honorable, that is how most people address me during the day.

Very Truly Yours,

-- Robert J. Triffin (RJTRIFFIN@RCN.COM), February 23, 2002.

Mr. Triffin is ruled "out of order" for starting a new thread, instead of adding on to the original one (so that the rest of us will have some idea of what he is talking about). This violation of common Internet etiquette preempts Mr. Triffin’s dubious claim that he actually knows actual about commercial law. Case dismissed.

-- Michael Feldman (mfeldman@qwest.net), February 23, 2002.

Xman is hereby sentenced to 30 days probation for turning the underline html tags on, and forgetting to turn them off.

-- Michael Feldman (mfeldman@qwest.net), February 23, 2002.

Your Honor

I do believe we are speaking about UCC 2-513 Buyer's right to inspection of goods, and 2-601 Buyer's rights on improper delivery, and 2-313, 2-314, 2-315, and 2-316, all of which deal with various forms of warranty and exclusions and modifications thereof. Maybe those numbers are different in other states, but if I recall the UCC has been adopted by 49 states and is quite universal.

So, for all of you having problems with B & H, go on the internet, find New York statutory law, go to the section dealing with sales in the Uniform Commercial Code, and see what it has to say.


-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), February 24, 2002.


-- Matthew Runde (actorm@hotmail.com), February 24, 2002.

Thank you Mathew.

It is common practice in consumer retail purchases that defective goods may be returned to the retailer for replacement (usually within 10-30 days of original purchase) if the original packaging (including UPC proof of purchase) and sales receipt are presented to the retailer (along with the defective goods). The requirement that the UPC proof of purchase be returned is to protect the manufacturer of fraudulent activity with regard to rebates, and fraudulent warranty claims on identical goods that are out of warranty. The manufacturer will not reimburse the retailer for the defective goods unless these items are collected from the customer.

The above “rules” established by the retailer and manufacturer, which still allows the customer to get the item repaired by the manufacturer’s warranty even if the UPC code is missing, seems reasonable to me, and I believe is accepted by common law in most locations. I do not believe that this particular situation is covered by the UCC, especially since the return policy of most retailers is adequately disclosed.

-- Michael Feldman (mfeldman@qwest.net), February 24, 2002.

Sounds to me like someone has an axe to grind. I don't think the post belongs here anyway. (Oh, and learn HTML, so someone else doesn't have to type slash ewe for you next time.)

-- Chad Jarvis (cjarvis@nas.edu), February 24, 2002.

Whatever the policy is, did you actually have a problem with B&H in this regard? I've had to exchange a couple of items over the past few years, and they've taken me at my word that they were defective without too many questions.

-- David Goldfarb (dgoldfarb@barnard.edu), February 24, 2002.

If the "honorable" has anything at all to do with "the Law", then it is a title bestowed, not earned. "The Law" is the most corrupt bunch of jackasses ever invented, led by those who preside over the courts.

Quit bitching about B&H & support your local camera store.

-- Dan Smith (shooter@brigham.net), February 24, 2002.

Well I dont know what pissed you off so much, I had to return a Jobo CPA2 with lift because the one they sent me was defective and I had no problem getting a RMA# or getting my money back. I have been a long time customer of them and wrote them a letter to that effect, it was a polite letter and they were very prompt returning my money. Perhaps you behaved like a jerk and they answered in kind.

-- Jorge Gasteazoro (rossorabbit@hotmail.com), February 24, 2002.

B & H is just moving into the "Modern World", I have no complaints with B & H and have always been satisfied with thier service. But like the rest of the World, I noticed that my last return was not as easy as the first. If only it were just B & H. It seems that everywhere we go we are subjected to "Poor Service". Have you been out to Dinner? When we find good "Old Fashioned" Service most of us are shocked! My Grandfather who just passed, told me that this is a sure sign of "Old Age" setting in. However my 16 year old daughter complains all the time about poor service...... So go figure...

"For your reference, the New York - City and State - consumer fraud departments will "wring" B&H's neck if they sold you - either knowlingly or unknowlingly - a defective product and if they refuse to either refund your purchase price or give you the same item in a new working condition."

As far as the above statement, I can only suggest that "The Honorable Robert J. Triffin" must be sitting on a PARK Bench if he thinks that the NY "CFD" gives a shit! They are no different than any other State "CFD" and like most people that are behind a Sales Counter or a Judicial Bench they have forgoten who the customer is.

Submitted with respect,


-- R. L. (Mac) McDonald (rmacsteam@aol.com), February 24, 2002.

Here's part of the original thread: "Here's the catch 22, the salesman says clipout the UPC code to get a rebate. The camera or what ever is sent to you defective They say too bad, the box is not as new So.. NO REFUND, kiss your money good buy."

As for "The Honorable" Tiffin, he's probably a two-bit traffic judge who, by having been appointed by his uncle, thinks he's GOD since he can tell everybody to shut up in his courtroom. Here, he's having a problem with people who know as much [and probably more] than he does. So much for "de Judge".

-- Alec (alecj@bellsouth.net), February 24, 2002.

I regretfully am writing again. I understand now that at issue was not the returns department, and in general making a return, but rather to say not being able to make the return because the shipping department sent a box without valid proof of purchase. I imagine if this was brought to the attention to the Manager of the store, or the Manager of the Shipping Department, and you did not BARK at them like a PITBULL, perhaps you might have gotten your money refunded.

Sometimes people who work in stores pay less attention to people that make a loud SQUAWK, but instead are more than happy to assist a different person who is not mean, looking down their nose as if they know more than you ... BLA BLA BLA.

Yes, there is a 1 in 10 rule: 1 out of every 10 people gives other drivers a hard time/ is a jerk/ steals money out of a tip-jar to pay for their $5 latté at a coffee-boutique/ harasses behind-the counter-help when they do not get their own way ... I could go on, and on and on and on and on and on and ...... but I am sure you get my drift.

I when I worked "behind the counter" people even clipped the UPC Symbols from the box and tried to return the item for whatever reason they gave ... usually there were 9 pleasant customers after that.

-- xman (xman@xman.net), February 24, 2002.

Robert Triffin is a real, actual lawyer.


-- Stee (skgrimes@skgrimes.com), February 25, 2002.

So was Marsha Clark - doesn't mean Jack.

-- Wayne DeWitt (wdewitt@snip.net), February 25, 2002.

I have received a defective part from B & H and just wanted them to send a new, working one. I assume they didn't have anymore because they refunded my purchase price plus full shipping even though I kept other stuff that DID work from that shipment. They aren't the best company in town but they are ONE of the best and usually try very hard to take care of people... I would endorse B & H if someone asked my opinion of them...

-- Jason J (janikphoto@yahoo.com), February 28, 2002.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ