Ok..I am beginning to see the hand-writing on the wall.

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Is there NOTHING that interests this group of people? Isn't this a Bible discussion forum?

Here is one: Can one be saved who wallow in grace and at the same time work for and accumulate material goods while fellow-Christians sometimes have dire needs? Will someone go to heaven who knows there are lonely Christians (possible single mothers with the burden of raising their children alone) and never seek them out for Christian fellowship?

Do you think there will be many people in heaven?

Just wondering!


nib Nelta Brock http://newmachine.qwikpages.com/parkave/nib/ Bible discussion list: 1stCen-Christianity-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

-- Nelta Brock (nib@hal-pc.org), February 08, 2002


I like to discuss Biblical topics, but they seem to devolve into discussions on baptism or conflicts related to the 'other forum'.

Been there; done that.

I re-post this to comment:

1.) Here is one: Can one be saved who wallow in grace and at the same time work for and accumulate material goods while fellow- Christians sometimes have dire needs?

2.) Will someone go to heaven who knows there are lonely Christians (possible single mothers with the burden of raising their children alone) and never seek them out for Christian fellowship?


The answer to both questions is 'Yes'. Unless you believe in salvation by works.

They might be selfish, carnal Christians, but if they have been 'borne from above by the Spirit' they will go to heaven.

They might have just wood, hay, and stubble, which will be burned up, but they themselves will be saved.

That is because it is the shed blood, death, and resurrection of our Savior, Lord, and Deliverer, Jesus Christ, which saves us, and our belief in that, not our good works.

Others can ASSUME we are not Christians by our sins or by our lack of good works, but that is different than not actually being saved.



-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 08, 2002.

Nelta here is my take on your questions.

1) No, according to scripture there will be FEW in heaven. Matthew 7:14 says this:For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

The question about our treatment of single mothers I will have to think on.

And your first question is an easy one to answer, although the answer is yes, and no. Here is why. According to Deuteronomy 8:18 God is the one who gives us power to make wealth. I do not believe that He has anything against wealth, else why would he give us what it takes to achieve it? Now why we DESIRE to achieve it and HOW we use it (wealth) now there is where the problem lies!! And I definetly believe that if our motives are wrong there, that we are on the road to eternal punishment!

Colossians 3:5&6 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality,impurity, passion, evil desire,and GREED, which amounts to idolatry. For it is on account of these things that the wrath of God will come.

As to Connie's answer, I guess Connie has torn a page or two out of her Bible. Perhaps this page did not fit in with her belief. James 2:17-26 say this, Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; ad the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justfied by works, and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works, when she recieved the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

It s important that we use all of God word in discussing salvation. The writers were talking to the people they were writing to "where they were". We today like to pick our favorite scriptues, usually the ones we were taught when we were children or young believers and make them fit our way of brainwashed thinking. Faith, grace, belief, repentance, confession, baptism and works are all taught in the Word as things that are necessary to achieve salvation. They may not all be in one verse, so does that make one less important than another? NO!! If we accurately handle the Word of Truth ( II Timothy 2:15 ), we will put the whole truth together. We will teach the whole truth so that none will perish. If we leave any of God's plan of salvation out, then we are allowing those we teach to believe a lie and therefore they will not know the TRUTH.


-- Lisa Johnson (lrcjohnson@yahoo.com), February 09, 2002.

Hello, 'Lisa',

Well, of course James is in my Bibles (all seven or eight translations) but he was addressing Christians. And of course I believe that good works follow belief. It is just that they will not save us.

We are foreordained to walk in good works. It is just that they will not save us.

Ephesians 2: 8,9,10. Titus 3:5.

I Corinthians 3: RSV 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.

3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.






3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--

3:13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.




3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.




3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 3:17 If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.

3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness,"

3:20 and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." [/quote]


-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 09, 2002.

"The BOOKS of the dead were opened..."

"..Written in the Lamb's BOOK of life...."

Plural for the many that will never exist in the Light of God the Father, Singular for those elected before the foundations of the world to be adopted as children.

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, £both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who£ is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." - Ephesians 1

Looks like Lisa may have torn out a page or two from HER Bible....There is NO WAY our works can "buy" us into God's favor...since he decided before ANY of us had done ANYTHING good OR bad....

Good works; should they be part of our Christian walk? You better believe it. They are the EVIDENCE that we have been born from above. Do they save us? NO WAY

Don't take the Word of God out of context to suit a pet belief, or will will stand condemned with those that preach another gospel, which is no gospel at all....

-- (serious@bible.thumper), February 09, 2002.


I don't think that Lisa is saying the works save us.... However, if faith without works is dead... and there are no works... then we are talking about Dead Faith which to me implies Not Saved. In other words, works don't save us... but works result from someone who is saved... so if you don't have works, you aren't saved.

Connie, as I recall, has such an aversion to the thought that baptism is essential for salvation, that she continually claims that baptism is a work... it is not.

-- Mr. Robin Cornell (robinc@mwt.net), February 09, 2002.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."- Ephesians 2

-- (serious@bible.thumper), February 09, 2002.

Amen. And I do believe that baptism is necessary ~ the one baptism ~ the one from above by the Spirit.

And I must remind you that I have been immersed in water TWICE, so if it were a requirement, as I have also said, I have jumped in there TWICE !!

And when it is mentioned as a WORK it is a work of God ~ He does the work, we don't.

And, boy, do I believe in good works as a proof of my indwelling by the Spirit. To enumerate them I would be chancing receiving my reward already. really, I do them because I care about others, not for any reward. But we are to not let our left hand know what our right is doing in relation to giving and doing good. "Let not a man's own lips praise him".



-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 09, 2002.

Thanks everyone for responding. I am reading the book of Romans from the English Standard Version. Of course, I have read this many many times in my life, but some of us on the GA forum decided to reread it *together.* I don't want to go over-board of thinking we can wallow in grace, but I would like to have enough faith to believe I will be saved. I know we are saved only by the grace of God, but we must surely respond to that grace through obedience. If we didn't need to do that then the whole world could be saved. If it is belief only then the devils will be saved.

Well, on to reading more in Romans. Any more comments will be appreciated.


-- Nelta Brock (nib@hal-pc.org), February 09, 2002.

Although I disagree with Connie, and even though I do appreciate Robin's response, I think that nobody is answering the questions originally posed by Nelta. I am interested in hearing what you have to say,even if I may not agree with you.

Connie, why did you, in your response to me, put my name in quotation marks? Do you think that may not actually be my name? or what?

Thumper, I will respond to you later in another thread. I do not apologize for my belief, just that perhaps I should have started a new thread for this "works" discussion.


-- Lisa Johnson (lrcjohnson@yahoo.com), February 09, 2002.

Hello, Lisa,

(Yes, I thought perhaps you were someone else).

I re-post to comment:

The answer to both questions is 'Yes'. Unless you believe in salvation by works.

They might be selfish, carnal Christians, but if they have been 'borne from above by the Spirit' they will go to heaven.

They might have just wood, hay, and stubble, which will be burned up, but they themselves will be saved.

That is because it is the shed blood, death, and resurrection of our Savior, Lord, and Deliverer, Jesus Christ, which saves us, and our belief in that, not our good works.


This was my response. I ansered the questions. Yes, people who do not have good works can be saved. But they will have no rewards; no "Well done, thou good and faithful servant". And as fruit testers, we can assume they are not Christians. But that does not mean they are not. The intent of what James says, to me, is that if we have faith we will have works. God is the One Who determines who is and who is not a Christian.

There are many unbelievers who perform many good works. Do these save them? Absolutely not. Ours don't save us either.

Perhaps I did not answer them to your satisfaction, but I answered them.



-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 10, 2002.

Connie - Hello Sister!!! Some major improvements have been happening since I have been gone! Keep up the great work - keep on sharing the love of Jesus! Now that I know my messages will not be deleted at every post I will be back around to add to the discussions at hand!

Your Bro,

-- Barry Hanson (obci2000@yahoo.com), February 10, 2002.

Hello, Good guy Barry,

I hope we can forget those things which are past from the other forum, but I am having difficulty doing so because it is continually referred to.

And I actually feel sorry for E.Lee. He LOVED that forum. I am still praying that God will enlighten him and bring him into the Kingdom.


-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 10, 2002.

Hey, Nelta,

I LOVE wallowing in Grace.

Are you saying that you have no assurance of salvation? I hope not.

From Romans 8: RSV 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 8:27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

8:28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

8:31 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us?

8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him?

8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies;

8:34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?

8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?




8:36 As it is written, "For thy sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.




8:38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Now I see why some might think there won't be many in heaven. They think we get there by works. If works were the way we get to heaven NO ONE would make it.

No one is good enough, and as Paul's salvation and the woman taken in adultery shows, no one is bad enough (if repentant and forgiven).


-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 10, 2002.

"Many are called and few are chosen" Yes, nothing can separate us from the love of God....but ourselves.

There is a scripture that says, "He that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Then another, ...He who remains faithful til the end.....

I think it is very dangerous to think one is saved with out the effort it takes on our part. Paul said, "....lest while I preach to others myself might be a castaway." paraphrased.

To say one is saved regardless of his actions is in serious danger of being lost. God is a just God who takes vengences. He expects to be obeyed. Even Paul said he buffeted his body daily.

There will be few who will be in heaven compared with the number of people who lived and died, or will die. I know it is Baptist doctrine that once saved, always saved and they pick and choose scripture to fit their belief. But there are soooo many warnings, even to those who are in Christ. Another to consider is, "By your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemn." Jude tells us to "keep yourselves in the love of God."

These all speak of actions on our part. I had a Baptist friend tell me once that if she had a sister and killed her, she would still be saved. Dangerous teaching and beliefs.!!!!


-- Nelta Brock (nib@hal-pc.org), February 10, 2002.


I re-post to comment:

8:39 nor height, nor depth,

***nor anything else in all creation,***

will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.






I think that is a Calvinistic doctrine, not a Baptist one. Baptists are pretty independent and some in Eternal Security and some don't.

But there are many Scriptures which state that we are not saved by works, but by faith.

If you believe that you can lose and regain your salvation by changing your behavior, as you seem to indicate (an Armenian doctrine) what do you do with Hebrews 6:1-9?

Hebrews 6

RSV 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,




6:2 with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

6:3 And this we will do if God permits.

6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,





6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6:6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.




6:7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.

6:8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

6:9 Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation.



-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 11, 2002.

Connie, you continue to post scripture that don't apply to the discussion. BTW you didn't deal with any of mine.

To summarize:

Yes, we are saved by the grace of God. Without His death on the cross we could not be reconciled to God. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. However, only those who accept His grace will be saved. It is not mental acceptance only, even though that is the beginning. There must be action on our part. That action is shown in scripture. We can't just trample on the word of God, by deciding we will do otherwise...such as "asking Jesus to come into our hearts" and expect Him to do that.

Certianly we have a hope of salvation, just as Paul said he had. But we are told to be faithful unto death and we will receive the crown...

There is a "strait and narrow" road and just because someone THINKS he is on that road does not mean he is. He is if he was added to Christ's body by Christ, where salvation will be found. As long as we are following in the footsteps of Jesus (if we were added to His body) nothing in the spiritual world or in the physical world can snatch us out of His hand. Only WE can refuse to "keep ourselves in the love of God", and if we refuse to do that we will spend eternity away from Him. Once saved, always saved is a false doctrine and is leading many people into a false believe of eternal safety.


-- Nelta Brock (nib@hal-pc.org), February 11, 2002.

Remember the parable of the wheat and the tares...Good and Evil will co-exist in this world (AND in the church) until THE END. THEN....Jesus will send out His angels to seperate the wheat from the pretend wheat....and BURN THE WEEDS IN THE FIRE "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"!!!

"There will be MANY that say to Him on that day 'Lord, Lord, didn't we do all these things in your name?' And He shall say to them 'depart from me, you evil doers...*I* never knew you'"

People who think works are going to 'get them in' are in for a HUGE, SAD surprise...JESUS is the *AUTHOR AND PERFECTOR* of our faith. Works...are only for our benefit...so we can 'test ourselves, to see if we are in the Faith' If you have NO WORKS, you might want to consider your spiritual condition....how can one be limp-wristed and lukewarm if one understands what the cross accomplished in our lives?!? (The cross having been a done deal BEFORE the foundation of the world) MY works are a response to what God has done for me....NOT "I hope I've done enough to get in good with the 'big guy upstairs'"....its not a scale of balance, God's standard. *I';;* take your place at the trough, Nelta so I can wallow-WALLOW-*WALLOW* ***I*** want to be head pig at the trough when it comes to grace.

A helpful saying:

Pray like it's all up to God; Live like it's all up to us

BTW, I applaud those taking part in this discussion (even those that are clearly wrong [: )....most people are not even *INTERESTED* in 'talkin doctrine' these days.

-- (blah@blah.blah), February 12, 2002.

BTW, you might want to easy up on the once saved always saved bit...I don't know a single person that understands the doctrine of eternal security who thinks you can be saved then live however you want. THAT is a myth propogated by the "saved by works" crowd. Same tactic used by free-will followers that try and teach that election and predestination believers say you can live however you want....NO ONE that I know teaches that.

-- (blah@blah.blah), February 12, 2002.

Hello, 'Blah',

I find your 'handle' interesting. I know it refers to inane and repetitive talk, but it reminds me of the time many years ago when I was heading up painting at our Christian School. I said to everyone that I wanted to cover every inch of 'Blah Blue'I could. We painted things a lovely shade of peach and celery green and sunshine yellow.

Now, I like some shades of blue ~ like periwinkle (pale lavendar blue) but the color on those walls was B-O-R-I-N-G!!

As for the topic of the thread, I do not want to stand before Christ at the Judgement Seat with an ARMFUL of FILTHY RAGS. (Good works).

I want to stand there clothed in Christ, which is the only appeal I have. Fortunately, I have the best Lawyer and Mediator in the universe ~ the Messiah Himself.

I expect to 'get off'.



Thanks for starting this forum.. what happened that we couldn't get in for a day or so?

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 12, 2002.

I didn't start this forum. A friend of mine did and told me about it.

Lusenet goes down for maintainance every once in a while...something about the server at MIT.

-- (blah@blah.blah), February 13, 2002.

Oh, O.K.

I read where 'Nunyo Beeswax' at the beginning said he might use other IDs. It seemed as though you spoke with some authority about the forum, so I thought you were 'Nunyo'.


-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 13, 2002.

In the book of Revelation, we read about a multitude of people from every tongue tribe and nation. Paul also said that he would take the Gospel to the Gentiles, and they would hear it. Paul quotes Moses to say that God would provoke Israel by a foolish 'nation.' Jesus said that the kingdom of God would be taken away from (____fill Jewish leader group name in blank, which I can't recall now if it's elders or Pharisees, or what___) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it.

Aren't nations at least somewhat big? There are plenty of passages which speak of many beleiving in the ministry of Paul.

Here is just an idea I'd like to throw out, not something I'm being dogmatic about. When Jesus said 'few there be that find it' could He have been talking about the situation in Israel in his own curren time?

About the material need question, you have a good point. I John asks if someone has material goods and doesn't provide for his brother who is hungry and naked, how can the love of God dwell in him?

There is a passage in Job where Job is accused of not being righteous in regard to providing for the widow and orphan. Job says something to the effect that if he had ever let the widow and/or orphan go unclothed or hungry without him feeding or providing clothing, then let his arm fall off at the joint...something along those lines.

I wonder about some of these things. I'm no rich man by American standards, but I may make 15 times the wage of my coworkers here in Indonesia, since I get an expat package. I'm getting ready to move back to the US without a job or health insurance, and my wife is pregnant. On the one hand, I want to save money for the trip to the US and for the baby. On the other hand, I see a lot of need around here, especially with the recent floods. Especially with rampant corruption around here, I don't want to give a lot through a secular (and certainly not Muslim) organization. But last week, when they got it set up to give for the floods at church, I didn't bring a lot of money.

Balancing the responsibility to take care of one's family and to give to those in need is a challenge. The cheesy way out I've heard a lot of people use is 'God only requires 10%' -which isn't true in either the OT or the NT.) Should a believer have his family live in a trailer and use the extra income for the kingdom, or is it better to buy a nice house, and have less left over to give? I know one brother who wonders if Christians should save money in the bank. I can understand the reasoning. Should we just trust God for our daily bread, and let him provide for our needs today, and 'cash out' all the time, giving our extra money to the poor? I think wise stewardship is more important than trying to avoid having any money onhand, but I respect those who don't want to accumulate property.

On most moral issues, I'm pretty conservative. But one thing that bothers me about Christian conservatives and religious conservatives is that some of them seem to have the idea that they have a 'right' to spend their money any way they choose, rather than a Biblical responsibility to give. Some people think that the poor and homeless deserve to be that way, because in America, anyone who works hard can supposedly make his way up to the top of the heap. America may have been the 'land of opportunity' back in the 1800's when the government was giving away free land, but having travelled a bit, I can see where it is easier for the poor who work hard to make it financially in poorer countries where the government doesn't bog down the economy with so many regulations. With the cost of living in the US, the price of medical care, it is hard for the working poor to scrape by on minimum wage, especially with all the 'McJobs' that only offer part time work so as not ot pay benefits.

I believe the saints need to build relationships with single mothers and help them. But as a married man, I'm not going to take up befriending single mothers as my own personal ministry, at least not without my wife helping me with it.

Here in Indonesia, in my wife's people-group, I see how uncles in the city will sometimes allow their nephews and nieces to live in their homes in the big city to go to school, or try to help them get jobs. An uncle may try to help a nephew raised in a home with a father who is irresonsible and doesn't provide for his kids. I like this idea of taking responsibility for more than one's own nuclear family.

I believe we need to expand this beyond the family and into the spiritual family of the church. Men in the church should seek to be father figures to fatherless boys and girls. We should take care of or widows, and help out the working poor and the handicapped. A lot of people think that 'church' is about going to see the big religious show andhearthe speech on Sunday, and don't think of it as a big family where we should be taking care of one another.

-- Link Hudson (link@world-missions.org), February 13, 2002.

Link, these are good thoughts and questions you post. I do believe that the first responsibility of a man is to see that his family has the necessities of life. I don't believe this means living high on the hog while others in the kingdom do not have the necessities.

I would feel guilty if I had a large beautiful house with all the trimmings when God tells us to "work with your hands so you can help others in need." paraphrased.

My thoughts!

Nelta P.S. Good to see your name again, Link. It has been awhile.

-- Nelta Brock (nib@hal-pc.org), February 13, 2002.

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