By the time you've exhausted all avenues (spread sheets, etc) and have visited all the locales, you will probably decide to stay at home, or (as in my case) go where you have family.

I spent twenty thousand dollars in the past two years, doing exactly what you're about to do. Going round and round in circles with all kinds of data. I drove my wife completely nuts with this project only to move in, down the road from my brother and his extended (five children) families.

Don't waste a whole bunch of time on stats. They are easily manipulated; don't believe what you read from the various chambers of commerce. They don't tell you the truth; it's called bending the truth.

If you come across crime stats, use on the raw data and not the per thousand rates. Very misleading. You want to know how many rapes, murders and burglaries that town has, not the percentage. Check out http://www.apb.com then click on their zipcode site.

Try http://www.nearmyhome.com for the latest updates on leaking fuel tanks, flood zones, recent tornadoes.

Be advised, much of the raw data is from 1998-1999. Almost nothing is available for 2000. A lot can change in three years.

You need to visit each and every locale and that takes time and money. If you're short on the money end, well, then you have a problem. If you have the money and not the time.....

Anyway, for every great place you find, you'll find another and another, just up/down the road. Don't be misguided by the non-income tax states: AK, FL, NH, NV, SD, TN, TX, WA & WY. They have a problem referred to as tax regressivity. They also have higher road use taxes (ad valorum, use tax); higher gasoline prices; poorer educational systems; higher school taxes; and in some cases poorer water and air quality.

Good luck in your search

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002

Answers

Places, like people, all have their faults. Happiness is not a place, it's an attitude. Good luck in your search.

-- paul (primrose@centex.net), February 08, 2002.

WOW you spent 20 grand. Man I thought me and my wife was the only folks to do that. We spent $17 grand and wasted a year. We still have the wanderlust but not the cash flow for extended stays.

So where all did you go and what did you find there? Did you have any criteria to what you wanted or were you just looking?

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

Kenneth, I ended up practically where I started. Old saying "grass is greener on the other side of the fence", until you get there and that old grass was still green.

I followed other peoples recommendations & retirement magazines too. Came to discover the editor's parents (of that particular magazine) lived practically all their lives in one state, moved to Florida, wrote books and pamphlets about how great it was, then MOVED back to their hometown, where they were close to family. Their propaganda is still being sold, as if they still lived there. They made no effort to cover their deceit.

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

Where did I go? Everywhere, man, everywhere. Started out in Wyoming & Montana, went all the way to Texas, Louisiana (actually I liked it there) east to Florida I was living there in 1992-1994 and again in 1997 (job related). Then up the coastline to Virginia, back thru the Midwest, spent about six months there. On other trips it was down to Texas and back up the California coastline to Seattle and back to Wyoming. It looked like the Olympic Torch Run when I got thru. Good thing I drive a diesel truck, or I'd have been broke six months earlier. Fuel prices fluctuated like crazy from state to state: cheapest o'course was in Georgia & most expensive in Oregon & California.

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

I can only imagine how expensive it can be to move around, What were you looking for? When I was looking for a place to live, I am in Northern California, the search was from the Sacramento area to the Oregon border. I did look at those Real Estate Magazines and saw real inexpensive land in Arkansas but never really considered buying. Ended up with a piece that was very expensive, and was behind in payments during the recession of the early 90's. Also "upside down" for a few years. Couldn't sell it for what we paid for it. It was sooo hard, still it has recovered the value and now is not so expensive any more, we had a hard money loan, land that has no public utilities will cost that, but once we had two power supplies: generator and solar system was able to obtain conventional financing. Now land in California is very desireable, has maintained it's value during THIS recession and I have the "Ranch" on the market, got four calls this week from realtor's wanting to bring clients. Mostly Bay Area transplants with LOTS of money. Most locals cannot afford to buy in my county. It is very sad.

-- Esther (realestatez@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

2/10/02 I hope where you're all at is better than the greater Rochester/Finger Lakes area of N.Y. The region is pretty enough geographically/geologically,but the economy is permanently deceased... and getting worse.Upstate will be bailing NYC: with taxes going up and the little remaining industry moving uot of state. I continue to look nationwide[preferably northern Rockies]for work e.g.environmental/safety monitoring,civl-sanitary engineering inspection,materials testing,etc. Don't know where I'll end up,but I've had it with N.Y. At age 51,things aren't looking bright at all. It's also time to remind the Republican Party of N.Y. and National, that they don't have an automatic guarantee of support.

-- Karl Bechler (kbechler@frontiernet.net), February 10, 2002.

Karl: Forget Colorado, Wyoming and New Mexico. Go to Montana. The University system there just loves enviro scientists such as yourself. And it's not 2/01/02. It's YR2012. Go look it up to see what it means.

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), February 10, 2002.

The non-income tax states can be good if you make a decent amount of money (there's a reason lots of companies locate in these states), many friends of mine have moved to these states, after calculating their particular costs of living.

School quality (public school) is bad in every state, at least until you get to community college (where your discipline problems can't afford to go just to goof around). School taxes depend a lot on the voters, and also on how many of those voters feed at the public trough (i.e. teachers). One district actually chewed out some teachers who didn't vote (public record whether you vote or not) on a school levy, which to me is using undue influence in a government job. This actually made the papers in the area.

Gas prices are important if you drive a lot, otherwise (even though they figure in total cost of goods), they may not be. I know plenty of people who live in "the boonies" and they pay more for gas than in the big city, but unlike the big city, have no option such as public transportation.

Bad water and air quality can be found in high and low-cost states, as well.

Bottom line, ask yourself what is important to you, and go from there.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 11, 2002.

GT: So explain to me why Boeing corp hq which used to reside in WA which is (a state inc taxfree state) moved to Chicago (w/3% state inc tax)? Corporations don't just pull up stakes and move on a whim. If that were the case Enron would have bailed out of Houston (another state inc. taxfree state) decades ago for sunnier climes like the Cayman's or Puerto Rico.

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), February 11, 2002.

Microsoft hasn't moved yet and shows no interest in doing so. As far as Boeing (and why other companies move), it really has nothing to do with state income tax (for the workers) per se, it has more to do with states giving these companies corporate tax breaks (for a certain amount of years) to relocate, in hopes of getting tax windfalls later in the form of employee and future corporate taxes. And, in the case of IL's state income tax, 3% is not much more than 0%, and still a lot less than other states on the east coast or CA, for example. Another reason for product companies to move is environmental restrictions (pollution controls, hazardous waste, for example), and domestic partner laws (requirements to provide healthcare for same-sex or different sex couples for example, can add a lot of expense to a bottom line in contrast to doing business in a state that is more conservative in that regard. Also, I understand that Boeing asked for tax relief and just were turned down, so they left. Just like pro sports teams do when things don't go their way.

Also, companies move where they think they can find the right (in the case of Boeing, for example, highly skilled/educated) workers who will relocate. I know many people, for example, who would rather work at a much lower paying job (in their old place) rather than move to (fill in the state) wherever, even if they were paid to do so. Strictly personal preference, and that's what it comes down to in the end.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 11, 2002.

Wanted to clarify something between my two posts--state income tax as a reason for locating or not locating your company somewhere. It still is a factor, in the sense that you can attract workers for whom that is an issue, but it is probably more important as a recruiting tool, and even then, it depends on the state. Gets back to "but will they move there?".

Also as far as other taxes--like sales tax, for instance--your own habits determine how much you pay. If you shop at garage sales (and in some states also non-profit thrift stores), you don't pay sales tax. For car tags, depends on the value of the car, and some states have flat rate tags now (which I think is more fair, because old or new, cars take up space on the roads).

The state income tax issue, again, is important only if you pay them. Some states/cities are doing an excellent job of driving out the middle class--in other words you can live in San Francisco or New York if you are either wealthy enough to pay taxes and have money left over, or you are on some sort of assistance (welfare, AFDC, foodstamps, rent vouchers, etc.). The middle-class folks you still see in the city by and large are commuting in from elsewhere, not living there. If you are on say social security, and are frugal (perhaps some shared housing to start), you can pretty much live anywhere, and take advantage of the low-income programs available.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 11, 2002.