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Good morning, everyone.
First to NLA: I sense discouragement in your writings. If this forum is for nothing else, it is a place to come for encouragement. Agendas are welcome. When I present my thoughts it does not enter my mind that I am *teaching* anyone. Neither am I trying to get ANYONE to change his/her beliefs. We will all stand before our heavenly Father individually to give an account to HIM, not to each other. Actually, we are all in the same boat on the way to heaven. Our main job on this earth as Christians is to first love God and then to love one another(agape.) Agape love, to me, means we are to value others and show love to them because God loves them.
Next, When I say we are to individually take care of the poor and not put the money God blessed us with into a plate for someone else to spend, I am not ruling out event pooling. I believe there are times we can work with others on different projects as long as we never turn over our stewardship to others, who BTW will not stand with us in judgement as we account to God for why we gave over that responsibility.
This is more to Kevin: I believe we have made something our of the word *preach* that scripture didn't teach us. For instance, *preach* means to proclaim. We must all proclaim our Lord and Savior as we go about our daily lives as the infant body did as they were spread everywhere because of persecution. The scriptures tell us the people went everywhere *preaching.*
Something else: We MUST be with other Christians. We cannot make it to heaven on our own. We need the encouragement we get as we interact together. That could be two of us getting together, or more, so long as it is not so many that interaction cannot take place. We are not told to sit and be encouraged. We are told to encourage one another.
Well, I am not sure this covers all of what Kevin asked but if not he will let me know.
Thanks to all who read this forum. If ANYONE wishes to write...do so, but this is not a forum for insulting one another, as so often is done on other lists and forums.
I still can't get into the administrative stuff because I can't remember my password.
Love to all:
-- Nelta Brock (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 01, 2002
You said: "Kevin, it seems you and I are going around in circles. I am going to try once more to express my beliefs and then will close my part of this discussion with you."
It appears to me that you believe that 1. Preaching is not required in the church and 2. Paul proclaimed the gospel, but didn't get a salary. Please tell me if I am incorrect.
You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion does not agree with what the Bible teaches.
Christians are bound to pass on the truth received by the apostles from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:18-20).
Notice that the apostles were commanded to teach what Jesus had taught them and those disciples in turn would do the same thing.
2 Timothy 2:2 says: "And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."
Notice there were things (truths) that Paul had taught to Timothy which Timothy was required to pass on to others.
Both these passages teach that there are truths that the apostles had received, these same truths were to be taught to the next generation of disciples.
One more thing, Paul did receive wages for his work as evidenced by 2 Cor 11:8 which says: "I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you."
The Bible also says in 1 Cor 9:14: "Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel."
So, here are 2 examples of where preachers are to be paid for their work.
The local church (Also known as Assembly, Congregation, or Flock) was referred to as a church (Ro. 16:5, 2 Thes. 1:1) or churches (Rev. 1:4, Ro. 16:4, 16, 1 Cor. 7:17, 11:16, 16:19, Gal. 1:22).
This same Greek word (ekklesia) is also translated "Assembly" (Acts 19:32, 39, James 2:2) or "Congregation" [Heb. 2:12 (NAS), Acts 13:43 (KJV)] and "Synagogue" (Acts 13:43, James 2:2) plus it was also referred to as the "Flock" (Acts 20:28-30, 1 Peter 5:1-3).
Responsibilities are given to local churches (Revelation 2-3).
The local church is made up of saints, deacons, and elders (Philippians 1:1).
Elders have authority over the local church or flock (1 Peter 5:1-2).
The local church: 1. Works together and enjoys Christian fellowship (Romans 12:4-17) 2. Stands for Truth (Gal. 1:8, 1 Tim. 3:14-15, 2 Tim. 2:2) 3. Helps its own, physically and spiritually (1 Tim. 5:1-18) 4. Needs to makes sure it is faithful (Rev. 2-3, 1 Cor. 5:1-5) 5. Worships in Spirit and Truth (John 4:24, Acts 17:11, 20:7, Eph. 5:17-21, 1 Cor. 16:1-2, Heb. 10:24-25) 6. Teaches (Eph. 4:11-13, Titus 2:3, Heb. 5:12-6:3, James 3:1) 7. Preaches (Acts 5:42, 20:27, 1 Tim. 6:2, 2 Tim. 4:2)
Here are the reasons the Bible gives for God's people to assemble together.
1. To show love for the Lord (Matt. 6:33, John 14:6, 15) 2. To commune with our Lord (Matt. 18:20) & with God (John 10:30) 3. To remember the Lord's death (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 11:23) 4. To sing praises to His name (Ephesians 5:19) 5. To give thanks for what He has given us (Ephesians 5:20) 6. To study His Word (Acts 17:11, 20:7) 7. To pray (James 5:15, 1 Thes. 5:25) 8. To grow Spiritually (Heb. 5:12-14, James 5:16) 9. To share our burdens & responsibilities (Eph. 4:16, 32, Gal. 6:2- 5) 10. To stir one another up to good works (Hebrews 10:24-25) 11. To have fellowship with one another (Acts 2:42, 1 John 1:7)
While the world tends to relegate the role of older men as leaders of a community to a bygone patriarchal era, Christians need to respect the instructions of the eternal God. Time has no effect on God, and, likewise, time does not affect His word. Thus, when we read that the apostles of Jesus saw to it that elders were appointed in the churches, we are obligated as disciples of Jesus to follow that pattern.
Elders are not optional. If there are men that are qualified in a local congregation, then they should be appointed.
On what basis would we do otherwise?
God's design for local churches is not obsolete. Some may attempt to modify it and eliminate it, but men of faith will seek to emulate it.
Qualified elders are needed in every church. May God increase their number, and may we welcome their pastoral oversight.
-- Kevin Walker (email@example.com), February 06, 2002.
Kevin, it seems you and I are going around in circles. I am going to try once more to express my beliefs and then will close my part of this discussion with you.
firstname.lastname@example.org wrote: > > Kevin Walker (email@example.com) added a message to the church of Christ bboard: > > Subject: Response to Do you remember? > > Nelta, > > You said: “Today formality has set in. One man is hired to do the > encouragement and edifying instead of the interaction. Nowhere in > scripture was such done.” > > The Bible says that Paul told Timothy in 2 Tim 4:2 to: “Preach the > word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, > with all longsuffering and teaching.” This is example number 1.>
This was spoken by Paul to gifted Timothy. The infant body didn't have the written word as do we and he was sent to set things in order. > > Example number 2, Col 1:28: “Him we preach, warning every man and > teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man > perfect in Christ Jesus.”>
Paul is strengthing the Christians in this place. He was inspired and was telling them the teachings of God. We have what he was telling them. They had Paul, we have Paul. > > Example number 3, Phil 1:15-18: “Some indeed preach Christ even from > envy and strife, and some also from good will: The former preach > Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add > affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I > am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in > every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and > in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.”>
Again, we have the same teachings he was teaching them. We have no Paul's nor Timothy's today, but we have the inspired teachings. Should we encourage and edity one another? ABSOLUTELY!
Paul > > Example number 4, Eph 3:8: “To me, who am less than the least of all > the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the > Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,”>
Paul is saying he was sent to the gentiles to preach (proclaim) Christ, to bring them into the fold. I'm not sure what your point is here unless you are still saying that *preaching* is when someone stands and gives his opinion on the scriptures as is done today by uninspired men. That is not what Paul was doing. He was not proclaiming his opinion, but giving the very teachings of our Lord. > > Example number 5, 1 Cor 9:14: “Even so the Lord has commanded that > those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.”>
Again, Paul is talking about proclaiming the gospel, which is done to unbelievers. And he didn't get a salary, but had his needs met at times, when he was not making tents. (It has been so long since this discussion started that this might even be off-topic.) > >
-- nib Nelta Brock http://newmachine.qwikpages.com/parkave/nib/ Bible discussion list: 1stCen-Christianityfirstname.lastname@example.org
-- Nelta Brock (email@example.com), February 04, 2002.
I asked on another thread: “The Bible says in 1 Cor. 1:21, “It pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.” Please show me when this was changed? If you can't give me BCV of where this was changed, then you are arguing from silence.”
To which you replied on this thread: “This is more to Kevin: I believe we have made something our of the word *preach* that scripture didn't teach us. For instance, *preach* means to proclaim. We must all proclaim our Lord and Savior as we go about our daily lives as the infant body did as they were spread everywhere because of persecution. The scriptures tell us the people went everywhere *preaching.*”
This doesn’t really answer the question does it Nelta? There is a big difference between “proving” something from scriptures and saying that “I believe” now isn’t there? If you can’t prove your beliefs from scripture, then you need to change your beliefs to fit what the Bible says. The Bible also says in Eph 4:11,“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,”
Now we know that there are no more apostles, and we also know that all prophecy has ceased (1 Cor. 13:8) hence no more need for prophets, but where in the N.T. does it say that we no longer need evangelists, pastors and teachers (BCV please)?
Then you said: “Something else: We MUST be with other Christians.”
To which I say, AMEN. But how can we do this without meeting with other Christians during our worship services? We are commanded to assemble (Heb. 10:25) and we do this today by meeting in a building, whether it be rented, purchased, in a house etc.
Then you said: “We cannot make it to heaven on our own.”
I also agree with this statement.
Then you said: “We need the encouragement we get as we interact together. That could be two of us getting together, or more, so long as it is not so many that interaction cannot take place. We are not told to sit and be encouraged. We are told to encourage one another.”
Okay, we aren’t told to STAND and be encouraged either now are we? What proves too much proves too little.
The first century church gave great emphasis to developing the faith of those who had been baptized. Acts chapter two records not only the fact that about 3000 souls gladly received the word and were baptized, but also the fact that after the 3000 were baptized "they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine" (Acts 2:42). The early disciples "ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ" (Acts 5:42).
Some statements from the inspired pen of Paul show us just how significant he believed it was to develop the faith of his readers. Paul was not satisfied with the mere knowledge that his readers had been baptized. He wanted them to grow! Read the following verses: Col. 1:23, Col. 2:6-7, 1 Thess. 3:5, 1 Cor. 15:58. These passages show that a tremendous emphasis was given by the first century church to developing the faith of those who became Christians! Now how can we do this without assembling together as we do today?
The question that must be asked is: Is the spiritual body of Christ a visible body? Of course it is! We can see where the church gathers. Acts 14: 27 tells us that the church was something to which Paul could report, because they could be gathered together and seen! The Bible does not teach that Jesus built a church that could not be seen.
Please in the future, if I ask you a question on another thread, please answer the question on that thread and do not start a new one. It makes it much easier to follow the flow of information.
-- Kevin Walker (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 02, 2002.