To Kevin and the list,

Kevin, it is hard to even have a starting place in my thinking concerning the institution that has engulfed, not only the Church of Christ but all of religion.

Everything was simple when the inspired apostles taught the infant body. Paul told the elders he met with before his death that digression would set in after his departing. And it actually wasn't long until that happened. The leaders were polluted. The falling away happened as Paul said it would. Maybe I can list a few things that happened slooooowly. Digregession never happens over night. If it did it would not be accepted by Christians. Digression seeps in, until we have a full-blown institution set in place that is now accepted by many.

Well, that is a start. Any questions or comments will be welcomed.

Nelta

-- Nelta Brock (nib@hal-pc.org), January 30, 2002

Answers

Just a quick response tonight concerning *Eldership.* In the N.T. there were older people appointed to watch out for the less mature. They were to be godly men so the people *they were among* could see by their lives they were fit to be followed. They were also to be apt to teach. This means teaching those who need teaching at the time.

Compare that with the Elderships today who are running big business under the guise of The Church of Christ, such as hiring and firing and putting in place all that staff.

Thanks,

Nelta

-- Nelta Brock (nib@hal-pc.org), January 31, 2002.

Kevin, I did start with general statements. That was on purpose. Now as we go further into the discussion I would like to suggest (strongly) that we cannot prove a negative by scripture. Put another way, we cannot give scripture for what is NOT in scripture.

I started with the suggestion that digression entered the simple plan of God soon after the death of the apostles, as Paul said it would. Maybe I can make a list of what was NOT going on as long as the apostles were alive.

1) There was no formality in the gatherings of the infant body. Instead, there was interaction among the Christians as they got together for encouragement and edification so they might go back out into the world and do the works of God.

2) Nowhere is there authority for group worship. Worship is done in the hearts of individuals as God judges our motives as we give our bodies as living sacrifices to Him.

3) There was no common treasury in the infant body taken up on a certain day for a group of men (called the Eldership) to run a BIG business with. The ONLY time Christians even pooled their money was for the poor, and 1 Cor. 16:1-2 is often used for pooling. However, as we look closely at those verses we will see they did not put their money in a common treasury.

This is my further thoughts. Kevin, if you are upholding these practices please give BCV as proof.

Thanks, Kevin.

Nelta

2)

-- Nelta Brock (nib@hal-pc.org), January 30, 2002.

Nelta,

I will respond to what you have written when I have some time, but for now, you said: "I am saying there was no Eldership in the N.T."

My question(s) to you are: 1. How did you come to that conclusion? 2. Which Command, Example, or Necessary Inference did you use to draw your conclusion. (BCV's please) And, 3. Why is there even any mention of Elders qualifications if they weren't used in the N.T.? 4. If Elders then aren't required by the N.T., then are Preachers (Evangelists) and Deacons not required either? If not, why not?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 31, 2002.

Ok, I am going to attempt to respond to this post.

Kevin wrote: Nelta,

You said: "1) There was no formality in the gatherings of the infant body. Instead, there was interaction among the Christians as they got together for encouragement and edification so they might go back out into the world and do the works of God."

What about these scriptures?

1. Acts 21:22 "What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.">

Nelta: This is from the English standard version translated directly from the Greek. "What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come." There is no doubt the early Christians met every chance they go. When Paul arrived in town they gathered to hear him.

Kevin: 2. Heb 2:12 "In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You."

Nelta: NEV This verse is a quote from Psa. 22:22, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."

Kevin: 3. Heb 12:23 "to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect," >

Nelta: ESV: "And to the assembly of the First born who are enrolled in heaven." ISTM this is talking about the universal body of Christ, the Ekklesia.

Keven: 4. James 2:2 "For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes," >

Nelta: This does indeed seem to apply to when the Christians come together, but doesn't teach they come together to teach the alien sinner. But the fact remains this does not prove worship.

Kevin: 5. Heb 10:25 "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.">

Nelta: Here is where we put our practices into the scriptures. We make the *assembling* mean our formal assembly. When what it is saying is we need to be together for our good. Actually, this is talking about the need to be together because of the approaching downfall of Jerusalem that happened in AD 70. But the principle applies to us today because we NEED one another.

Kevin: 6. 1 Cor 11:17-18 "Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.">

Nelta: Here is another place where the word Church is not a true translation of ekklesia. I surely must mean, they came together as a group as the infant body did constantly.

Keven" 7. 1 Cor 11:20 "Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.">

Nelta: These people had met together and besides eating a common meal were also partaking of the Lord's supper. They were being greedy.

Keven: 8. 1 Cor 11:33-34 "Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come." >

Nelta: Paul is giving a solution to their greediness. If they are so hungry that they can't wait for the others and share their food with the others then they should eat at home, before they met with the group.

Kevin: 9. 1 Cor 14:26 "How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." >

Nelta: We don't have this kind of meeting today, because there is no need since we have the inspired writings, which the infant body did not have. But even in this situation it was not a one man show. All participated.

Kevin: How do you explain those scriptures above if they are not speaking of a formal gathering?>

Nelta: Actually, nothing in any of these scriptures says anything about formality, but interaction.

Kevin: Then you said: "2) Nowhere is there authority for group worship. Worship is done in the hearts of individuals as God judges our motives as we give our bodies as living sacrifices to Him."

All of those verses above apply. If not, why not?>

Nelta: Nothing in any of those verses apply to worship. They are for the benefit of Christians. Even partaking of the Lord's supper is for our benefit that we might remember what Christ did for us.

Kevin: Acceptable worship must be offered in Faith (Heb. 11:4), must agree with the Truth (John 4:24), and be given by the Commandment of God (John 14:15). Anything other than that cannot be considered acceptable worship.>

Nelta: I certainly agree with this. The *woman at the well* incident forever does away with the rituals of the O.L. Now it is in the heart of the believer. We worship God according to His direction. He has directed us to give our bodies as living sacrifices to Him. We are to visit the fatherless and widows.....and keep ourselves unspotted from the world.

Kevin: The worship God has ordained for the church is to be characterized by two very important elements. One element is reverence. Psa 89:7 says, “God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be held in reverence by all those around him.” Now, while this is said in the Old Testament, the principle remains consistent with the New. Heb. 12:28 says, “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” So we should understand that all worship offered must be devout and respectful.>

Nelta: I agree with this, but it is talking to those who are the *assembly* of God. And whatever we do as we offer our individual worship to Him must be done devoutly and respectfully or He will not accept it....as he judges our motices from our heart.

Kevin: The second element that characterized New Testament worship is that it is largely dominated by verbal discourse (preaching). That is, the centuries-old arrangement of one man standing in front of the congregation reading scripture and expounding upon what is read.>

Nelta: Here we have a problem. We have no example of anyone standing reading scripture without the questions of others. We find that when the infant body was scattered abroad the people went about preaching. I don't believe that would mean each of them went about looking for an audience where they could preach. No, they preached to those they met as they told them about our Savior.

Kevin: Acts 20:7 says, “Paul preached unto them.” >

Nelta: Here we get to the verse so often taken out of context to prove the preacher system we have today. The word *preach* here means dialogue, meaning he discussed with them.

Kevin: The fact that Paul preached was not a coincidence. >It was not an incidental thing. There was and there is a purpose for preaching in worship. Public discourse is the only medium that can accomplish what God intends to be accomplished. Not only is the gospel God’s power to save according to Rom. 1:16, but it can only be communicated through discourse.>

Nelta: I don't think it can be proven that discourse is the way to communicate, if by that you mean one person gives his opinion on what the scriptures say while everyone else sits silently. Kevin: Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 1:21, “It pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.” God’s message of salvation and spiritual growth cannot be conveyed through anything other than verbalizing the revealed word of God. This is why preaching dominated early worship assemblies. >

Nelta: But preaching didn't dominate early *worship assemblies.* Of course, Paul was inspired and had much to tell the people. He did verbalize the reveal word of God.

Kevin: Paul told the church at Colossi in Col. 4:16, “Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.” >

Nelta: Absolutely! His letters were passed around from town to town. When one of his letters arrived they gathered together to hear what he had to say.

Kevin: Worship has never been about man; it has always been about God. The Bible closes with the admonition to “worship God” in Rev. 22:9.>

Nelta: Another *amen.* We are to worship God. That is about God observing our worship as we give our bodies as living sacrifices and as we leave our get togethers and go back out into the world to do the works of God.

Kevine: Then you said: "3) There was no common treasury in the infant body taken up on a certain day for a group of men (called the Eldership) to run a BIG business with. The ONLY time Christians even pooled their money was for the poor, and 1 Cor. 16:1-2 is often used for pooling. However, as we look closely at those verses we will see they did not put their money in a common treasury."

Okay, what about 2 Cor. 9:1-9? Especially verse 7? Or how about 2 Cor. 9:12-13? Or how about Acts 20:35? So now are you also saying that "the Eldership" isn't scriptural? >

Nelta: I am saying there was no Eldership in the N.T. All these verses you listed are indeed telling us that whatever we give (and we are commanded to give to the needy, in fact we are to work so we will have to give to those who are in need) we are to be liberal givers because we want to help others. An example: A man has a family who are hungry. For any Christian who can to pass that man up without helping him (consider the good samaritan (?) who was helped by the passer-by. That is a princple for us today to help those who are in need from the money God blessed us with.

Also, please use a different email address in your reply as it changes the order of the posts if you use your original email address.>

OK! Kevin, it has taken me a long time to type this and I am tired. I will not reread what I have written so forgive misspelled words, etc.

Thanks, Keven.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 30, 2002.

-- nib

Nelta Brock

http://newmachine.qwikpages.com/parkave/nib/

Bible discussion list:

1stCen-Christianity-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

-- Nelta Brock (nelta72000@yahoogroups.com), January 31, 2002.

-- Nelta Brock (Nelta72000@yahoogroups.com), January 31, 2002.

Nelta,

God never intended for the Christian to seek heaven alone in life. The church is a part of God's eternal purpose(Eph. 3:9-11)where people could live and work together in their preparation for heaven. Each Christian is challenged to "look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others" (Phil. 2:4). He is exhorted to love one another (John 13:34), to edify one another (Rom. 14:19), to serve one another (Gal. 5:13), to bear each other's burdens (Gal. 6:2), to comfort one another (1 Thess. 4:18), and to provoke one another unto love and good works (Heb. 10:24).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 31, 2002.

(First I want to mention that we must give correct email addresses. I have more than one and changed to this one. But the one NLA uses causes a message to come to me when I answer him, saying that is not a correct address. Also, his posts never come into my inbox when everyone else's do. I am still a little mixed up on how to do a forum since I usually deal with Bible Discussion lists.)

Kevin, I am going to give an introduction and in another post deal with your scriptures.

The word *church* is a mistranslation of the *ekklesia.* King James had that word left in his translation because he considered the *church* to be an *it* and not simply the people. He was the head of the *church* and intended to stay that way. I have a copy of the rules he laid down for his translaters.

There are three words that DO translate *ekklesia* correctly. One is *congregation* another is *assembly* and the one IMO that more correctly gives the meaning is *community.* IOW Christ's community of believers. Nothing wrong with *assembly* nor *congregation* except what we have made those two words mean. Community is IMO the best because that is God's people whether assembled or going about their daily lives.

When the people then gather together they are still simply the community of Christ, His universal body of His. They don't become something else simply because they get together.

Well, this is an introduction, Kevin, and I will get back later to commenting on my take of the scriptures you posted.

Thanks, Kevin.

Nelta

-- nib Nelta Brock http://newmachine.qwikpages.com/parkave/nib/ Bible discussion list: 1stCen-Christianity-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

-- Nelta Brock (nelta72000@yahoogroups.com), January 31, 2002.

Nelta,

You said: "1) There was no formality in the gatherings of the infant body. Instead, there was interaction among the Christians as they got together for encouragement and edification so they might go back out into the world and do the works of God."

What about these scriptures?

1. Acts 21:22 "What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come."

2. Heb 2:12 "In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You."

3. Heb 12:23 "to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,"

4. James 2:2 "For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,"

5. Heb 10:25 "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

6. 1 Cor 11:17-18 "Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it."

7. 1 Cor 11:20 "Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper."

8. 1 Cor 11:33-34 "Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come."

9. 1 Cor 14:26 "How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification."

How do you explain those scriptures above if they are not speaking of a formal gathering?

Then you said: "2) Nowhere is there authority for group worship. Worship is done in the hearts of individuals as God judges our motives as we give our bodies as living sacrifices to Him."

All of those verses above apply. If not, why not?

Acceptable worship must be offered in Faith (Heb. 11:4), must agree with the Truth (John 4:24), and be given by the Commandment of God (John 14:15). Anything other than that cannot be considered acceptable worship.

The worship God has ordained for the church is to be characterized by two very important elements. One element is reverence. Psa 89:7 says, “God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be held in reverence by all those around him.” Now, while this is said in the Old Testament, the principle remains consistent with the New. Heb. 12:28 says, “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” So we should understand that all worship offered must be devout and respectful.

The second element that characterized New Testament worship is that it is largely dominated by verbal discourse (preaching). That is, the centuries-old arrangement of one man standing in front of the congregation reading scripture and expounding upon what is read. Acts 20:7 says, “Paul preached unto them.” The fact that Paul preached was not a coincidence. It was not an incidental thing. There was and there is a purpose for preaching in worship. Public discourse is the only medium that can accomplish what God intends to be accomplished. Not only is the gospel God’s power to save according to Rom. 1:16, but it can only be communicated through discourse. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 1:21, “It pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.” God’s message of salvation and spiritual growth cannot be conveyed through anything other than verbalizing the revealed word of God. This is why preaching dominated early worship assemblies. Paul told the church at Colossi in Col. 4:16, “Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.”

Worship has never been about man; it has always been about God. The Bible closes with the admonition to “worship God” in Rev. 22:9.

Then you said: "3) There was no common treasury in the infant body taken up on a certain day for a group of men (called the Eldership) to run a BIG business with. The ONLY time Christians even pooled their money was for the poor, and 1 Cor. 16:1-2 is often used for pooling. However, as we look closely at those verses we will see they did not put their money in a common treasury."

Okay, what about 2 Cor. 9:1-9? Especially verse 7? Or how about 2 Cor. 9:12-13? Or how about Acts 20:35? So now are you also saying that "the Eldership" isn't scriptural?

Also, please use a different email address in your reply as it changes the order of the posts if you use your original email address.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 30, 2002.

Okay Nelta, I still don't understand what you are getting at? You make several general statements, but don't state what the problem or problems are specifically. Now if you make more specific statments, I would expect that you would be able to back them up with scripture. And be able to show why this "full-blown institution" as you call it has taken the church away from the truth.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 30, 2002.