anyone interested in bible collectinggreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
Sharing my bible collecting hobby My hobby is collecting bibles from the time of king George IV and queen Victoria. Most of the bibles are for pulpits, pews and pockets. At the hart of the collection are bibles distributed by the principle bible societies of the 1800s For example I have the British and foreign bible society half crown, 10 penny and 4 penny bibles: As well as copies from the society for promoting Christian knowledge.
I also find Bible distribution in the United States interesting. For example have you heard about the following bibles? The first translation of the bible by a woman called the Julia smith bible 1876 The Robert aitken bible 1782, the first complete English bible printed in America and only edition approved by the United States congress (also known as the bible of the revolution). The wicked bible so called because the word not is omitted in the 7th commandment. The Eliot Indian bible first printed bible in America 1663.
I started my hobby about ten years ago and have one non-bible book in the collection called Simeons skeletons of sermons printed in 1815, which I call the preachers book. My fascination with the book is the hand wear and by looking at the pages you can see which sermon were most often read.
To my mind bible societies satisfied the ever increasing public demand for freedom to have gods word in their mother language and so vernacular bibles were produced but not without great cost and sacrifice For example in 1519 at little park street in Coventry England (my home city) 5 men and 2 women were publicly burned at the stake. Their crime being to teach their children to memorise the Lordís Prayer in English.
I have an written account of the events leading to there conviction and execution, called lest we forget, which is an unforgettable touching story of the faith and courage of ordinary people doing extraordinary things. If there is enough forum interest I would be happy to word-process it into my computer and post it to this forum.
Jack kybird (bible Collector) http://www.geocities.com/jackkybird/watercycling.html http://www.geocities.com/jacksworld2000/jack.htm
-- jack kybird (email@example.com), January 28, 2002
Your message made me wonder about a few things.
1. You mentioned several different Bible editions that you have collected. Are these actually just one version/translation -- the King James, or "authorized," version -- but in different printed formats? Or are they actually a variety of separate translations?
2. Are any of the items in your collection complete Bibles -- containing all 73 books, including the Old Testament "deuterocanonical" books?
3. You stated: "[B]ible societies satisfied the ever increasing public demand for freedom to have gods word in their mother language ..." But are not "bible societies" a relatively recent phenomenon? There have been legal vernacular translations of scripture for hundreds of years. I have never heard of people being burned for praying the Lord's Prayer in public. I find it hard to believe that there was not more to the story than just this public prayer -- e.g., perhaps the use of a faulty translation of the prayer, or reading it from an illegal (heretical) translation of the Bible. [I do agree that, no matter what the reason, burning was not a proper penalty.]
Expanding on point #3, I would like to quote from an interesting essay by apologist Dave Armstrong on the topic of vernacular translations:
[It is not] "true that the Catholic Church was opposed to the printing and distribution of Bible translations in vernacular languages ... For instance, between 1466 and the onset of the Protestant Reformation in 1517 at least fourteen editions appeared in High German, and five in Low German ... The situation was no different in other European countries. From 1450 to 1550, for example, there appeared (with express permission from Rome) more than forty Italian editions or translations of the Bible and eighteen French editions, as well as others in Bohemian, Belgian, Russian, Danish, Norwegian, Polish, and Hungarian. Spain published editions starting in 1478 ... A total of 626 editions appeared, of which 198 were in the vernacular languages, with the sanction of the Catholic Church, before any Protestant version saw the light of day. Furthermore, Latin was not then a 'dead language,' but the universal language of Europe, much like English is today. Whoever could read, read Latin. ...
"Finally, the state of affairs in England and for English-speaking peoples was no different. The famous preface of the translators of the King James Bible (1611) tells of the history of English translations, most of which predated Protestantism: 'To have the Scriptures in the mother tongue is not a quaint conceit lately taken up . . . but hath been . . . put in practice of old, even from the first times of the conversion of any nation.' Thus, John Wycliffe was not the first person to give English people the Bible in their own tongue in the 14th century, as a popular misguided myth would have it. We have copies of the work of Caedmon from the 7th century, and that of the Venerable Bede, Eadhelm, Guthlac, and Egbert from the 8th (all in Saxon, the prevalent language at that time). From the 9th and 10th centuries come the translations of King Alfred the Great and Aelfric, Archbishop of Canterbury. Early English versions include that of Orm around 1150, the Salus Animae (1250), and the translations of William Shoreham, Richard Rolle (d.1349), and John Trevisa (c.1360)."
[See http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ47.HTM for more text and the footnotes supporting the above.]
St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 29, 2002.
Hi, Jack! You have been watching this forum from time to time, haven't you? OK! I couldn't help but note your tossed-off alarum about the English victims of Catholic murderers: ''--great cost and sacrifice For example in 1519 at little park street in Coventry England (my home city) 5 men and 2 women were publicly burned at the stake. Their crime being to teach their children to memorise the Lordís Prayer in English.''
I see. These were those who defied the Church, then? Or, being in 1519, at the beginning of a ''reformation'' could these have been burned by an English monarch???
Please excuse, but I simply can't accept any story like yours, about the ''crime'' of teaching children to pray in English. I freely accept that those were times of universal brutality, especially in England. However, a person taken to the stake for this kind of conviction is too preposterous to believe. I'm sorry.
It's common in anti-Catholic societies, for the people to believe anything whatever they are spoon-fed by their parsons and professors; anything evil about the Catholic faith. I suggest you buy a used copy of any good book by G. K. Chesterton. He was a familiar figure in the Fleet Street of Queen Victoria's time. You ought to love him; he's a little like Big Mac of Channel 4, a fine Brit! Expose yourself to some truth about Catholicism, Jack. I promise, it's much better for the soul than collecting. --Cheery-O, Jocko!
-- eugene c. chavez (email@example.com), January 29, 2002.
Hello, john Thank you for your interesting essay by apologist Dave Armstrong on the topic of vernacular translations, itís nice to a different point of view and have added the file to my bible collecting info. With regard to your questions, most of my collection is mainly King James, or "authorized," and revised 1881 version published by different printers and for different organisations. The collection is a mix of Old Testament and New Testament or New Testament only. although I am not sure if the king James version contains the same books as Rheims douey bible. You stated: are not "bible societies" a relatively recent phenomenon? The earliest society I know of is the society for promoting Christian knowledge in 1698 with a big increase in early 1800s.
with regard people being burned for praying the Lord's Prayer in public. I did not say this. I said Their crime being to teach their children to memorise the Lordís Prayer in English. In Coventry we have a martyrs memorial at the place where they were executed according to the law at the time. I have extracted the following inscription from the memorial. Near this spot eleven persons, whose names are subjoined suffered death for conscience sake in the reigns of king henry V111 and queen mary Viz In 1510 joan ward On april 4th 1519 Mistress landsdail (or smith) Thomas landsdail (hosier) Master Hawkins (skinner) Master wrigsham (glover) Master hockett Master bond In January 1521 robert selkes (or silksby) Also feb8 1555 laurence saunders September 20 1555 robert glover Cornelius boncey
Ref: letters of the martyrs of the English church by Robert glover Published London w swan sonnenschein & co peternoster row 1884.
-- jack kybird (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 01, 2002.
Yes, I'm sorry about getting that "crime" wrong -- not public prayer, but memorization of the prayer English. Are you able to explain why the government of Henry VIII would have imposed such a severe punishment for something that seems not to be a crime? Is there a royal document explaining it -- or only an oral tradition about it (which may not be trustworthy)? It seems to make no sense, if the Lord's Prayer in English had been written out thousands of times in the translations going back before the year 1000.
You wrote something deliciously ironic: "Ref: letters of the martyrs of the English church by Robert glover, Published London, w swan sonnenschein & co, peternoster row 1884."
You see, the publisher was actually located on Paternoster Row, and "Pater Noster" means "Our Father" in Latin. I was in England once (1979), and I believe that I saw Paternoster Row.
Keep up the collecting, sir. I too love old books.
God bless you.
-- (email@example.com), February 01, 2002.
Zarove, this thread may be of interest to you.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 03, 2004.