Questions Re: Building a Shed

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Hello all.

My wife Ann and I will be buiding a resident friendly shed :< 0

Yes we will live in it for a couple of years.

I know that a square building will use the least materials, but I need to decide the most practical size to build.

We need one least 16' by 16', but would be more comfortable in one that was 20' by 20'. This size would also allow for the best solar gain. One consideration that I have, is keeping pests OUT! I will use screen and hardware cloth to accomplish this where neccessary. We plan to build a slanted, flat roof, not a gable type.

My questions regard the placement of the posts, and type of floor/ foundation and post and beam sizes to use. We may well be getting our materials to the site by some primitive methods (dragging or pulling by winch on a sledge):<(

Are 2x4's strong enough for this (our city shed and house are built with them), and for a 20' by 20' size can 2, 10 foot beams be joined in a parallel run? Would/ can the beams be bolted to the posts? Are 2x4's strong enough for the beams, or are 2x6's or 2x8's a wiser choice?

I have a neighbor who sunk PT posts in concrete (we want to avoid PT as much as possible). It seems like I have heard of posts being set on top of a slab on metal "post rests" (Ann wanted me to call them "thingies" but I have my dignity).

Building a raised wooden platform seems like it would require hauling the least amount of weight up there, but also seems like it would entail more, and expensive beams, and I have a feeling that the gravel and concrete would cost considerably less. I'm thinking that renting an ATV to haul concrete materials might solve that problem.

If we go with a floating slab,( for a shed), does the gravel need to be below the frost line? If not how many inches of gravel are necessary, and is a 4" slab thick enough (there won't ever be a great amount of weight in this building). Would a 2" slab be way too thin?

Thank you for any thoughts you may offer.

-- Rick (Rick_122@hotmail.com), January 20, 2002

-- Rick (Rick_122@hotmail.com), January 20, 2002

Answers

Wouldn't an older used camper or school bus be better???? It would have some amenities and you could sell it after you build your home. Most of my sheds have no foundations and just a dirt floor. Some sit on a row of concrete blocks.

-- Gary from Mn (hpysheep@midwestinfo.com), January 20, 2002.

Rick: do yourself a big favour and buy a basic text on building construction. It will be an invaluable resource. I might suggest building a rectangular building so you can cut down on the span of your ceiling and utilize small and cheaper dimensional lumber. I'm no expert, but a 16' span is very practical and you can use 2 X 4 on 16" centres but double check this and don't use the attic. 2 X 4 framing for the walls on 16" centres is fine and very useful for securely attaching things to the walls later (it's always nice to have a stud handy where you need it!) I assume you will put in proper concrete footings digging down to below the frost line and where the soil is undisturbed and solid. Then your concrete foundation walls go on top of this and stick out of the ground about 12" and then build your wooden walls on this (see your book for details). Your 4" slab should be fine but again you should go down to undisturbed soil then backfill with gravel that packs well. The better you pack and prepare the floor bed, the less chance of cracking! Also, make sure you embed concrete reinforcement mesh in your floor. Give your shed roof lots of slope and you will be glad you did and consider perimeter drainage if the soil does not naturally drain well. Lots to think about but very satsfying to create buildings. I have designed, drafted and acted as general contractor on two of my homes plus a 24' X 36' garage and a 36' X 36' barn (not counting numerous outbuildings). Good luck!

-- Kathy (homefarmbc@pacificcoast.net), January 21, 2002.

Rick,

Somebody mentioned this place last night and it looks good for you: http://countryplans.com/

Good luck.

-- Eric in ID (umm@nope.com), January 21, 2002.


Rick, Kathy gave you some great advice there. I have to reiterate what she said about making sure you have a footer all around. I'd suggest going a little larger yet to a 24 x 24 size. It'll be nicer for a conversion to a garage later. If you're going to live there a couple years at minimum I'd also suggest unsulating under your slab and around your footer so you can use hot water floor heat. Just run your tubing before you pour your slab and you've got a really nice, even, inexpensive heat source you can fun from a hot water heater. When you eventually move out and this becomes a garage/workshop/shed you can cheaply keep it at 50 degrees which isn't a bad temperature in which to work and certainly will prolong the life of any vehicle engines you start when it's cold outside. Build with headers where you'll eventually put larger doors so it's an easy conversion later. If you can't build with a clear span you could use a bearing wall and headers at the middle. You could design it so you could have headers at each end and the middle to facilitate traffic flow later. Good luck with your project. I hope this helps.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), January 21, 2002.

I assume that you want a permanent building so you can use it for something else after the temporary living situation ends. But, I can promise you that if you plan to put any kind of kitchen and bath in, insulate it, heat/AC, etc., you will be into several thousand dollars, even for one that size. And you will be cramped for space. I bought a 1984 model 14'x70' mobile home in fairly good condition for $2500, and it cost me $1200 to move it for a total of $3700. Some new paint on the inside and we had a nice comfortable and roomy place to spend our weekends in the woods. I could not have built a cheap shed/living quarters for that much. We have since added another $3000 for new siding (installed), but that is only cosmetics. Old mobiles in most areas are cheap, especially when they have to be moved. The demand is low for these because most MH parks won't allow these old homes to be moved in. You might consider this as an alternative, since it is a lot easier than building something yourself, and usually cheaper. And you can still sell it when your temporary situation ends.

-- Steve(TX) (smdann@swbell.net), January 21, 2002.


My post here doesn't really refer to your situation but for those who might check this thread in regards to a regulat shed that is just for a roof and sides for storage or even animal cover I thought I would post anyway. At my place I have built barns or perhaps I should say over grown sheds without foundation just setting on the ground then driving in T posts and attaching for anchors. Where I build I have windbreaks thanks to many large cedar trees so I don't get really strong winds here. For my upright posts I use landscape timbers rather than 4x4's as they are a lot cheaper. I also use them for a lay on the ground foundation. I won't go into real detail here but it has worked for me and really loweres the tax bill. I also use my table saw to rip up the timbers to get the lumber I need to nail down the roof over the rafters. What I do here is set my say to give me a 2x4 and the two slabs I get by doing this works great to nail the roof to. I know this sounds cheap but in my projects I really have to watch the money.

In regards to your project have you thought about designing your home so that you could maybe start with say the living room then add on to get your other living areas while living in the first part. I do agree with the above posts that any shed built so that you could live in it will cost alot. I only have posted this as I question from your statement of using maybe a atv to get materials in that maybe you could not get a trailer or camper into where you want to live. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef@getgoin.net), January 21, 2002.


Rick, I've been a contractor for over 20 years. Mostly repair work but I built my own home, my mother's, brothers and a few others homes. My entire family still speaks to me... First of all 2 by 4's could probably only be used in the walls in your situation. Pre-engineered trusses could avoid using bigger lumber and probably will be cheaper and less weight to haul to a building sight. Your ten foot beams can be overlapped only if you have support under the joint. I personally never set any posts IN concrete. I set them on concrete. Setting any wood in concrete encourages rot very quickly. Plus it's actually easier. Once posts are IN concrete, you're stuck if they aren't level or whatever. Building your place on a wooden platform is easier for the do it yourselfer. (I find). It's usually a bit cheaper also. Treated lumber has a bad habit of twisting with tremendous force. I'd avoid it in any framing unless it was totally necessary. Email me if I can help.

-- DAVID CONSTANTIN in Wisconsin (cajundavid@hotmail.com), January 21, 2002.

I liked what everyone else has said. Don't use 2x4 horisontally for anything, they are not strong enough. Vertically yes.

Um, don't you have any building codes where you live? Couldn't have done what you are planning even back in the 70's where I live, & it is rural here.

As to access, consider how you will give fire & medical access to the location your building site is going. Wouldn't you want access for an ambulance to the door of your residence? (That is also code where I live....) Anyhow, something to think of, sounds like you are extremely romote, I would consider emergency access.

--->Paul

-- paul (ramblerplm@hotmail.com), January 21, 2002.


First let me take the time to thank every one for their responses. Our homestead is located in West Virginia, outside of Charleston

The camper/ bus idea would be nice even if a little cramped. We would be limited to about 25 feet, as the State road to the property twists and turns for a mile before you get there. and haven't found an inexpensive one that was in good enough condition to get to the property. All that said, it would still be difficult to navigate to the site, as there is currently no road. The road (driveway) would be our first priority after a permanent shelter (instead of a tent).

We will get a book on building construction. What would be considered a good slope for a flat roof, 60 degrees? We had planned to use a floating slab (gravel to below the frost line) as a floor.

I have no Idea what this project will cost. Once we have decided on a size, we can begin to estimate what the materials might cost. We are eager to do anything we can to minimize costs, as long as it doesn't fall down. Our frost-line is about 24 inches below ground.

Kathy: While a rectangular building will cost more in materials, the advantages you mention might make it worth it. We do want the sun to be able to make it all the way in the winter though, which makes a 24' depth more practical. I don't understand the part where you say "don't use the attic".

I had not stated in my previous post that we are planning on building the shed as Post and Beam. Does this have any impact on whether or not we must have footers and a foundation (I realize that it would be prone to rot along the ground without the foundation).

I understand that Gary and Kathy are positive I should build this with footers, I just want to understand why, and if concrete columns, poured below the frost-line can double as footers.

Gary, would a clear span be a span not touching a load bearing wall or support along the way?

Steve, thanks for the thoughts, but the only way to get a 14 by 70 trailer up there would be by helicopter, as the state road twists too sharply. Fortunately we aren't looking for a kitchen or bathroom as the world knows these facilities.

Thanks Gail, you are right on the money about the limited access and building in segments being a good idea!

David thanks for the remarks, and I'm glad your family still speaks to you. I've seen some amazingly twisted P/T 4x4 birdhouse posts.

Paul thanks for the verification on the beams needing to be larger. What size lumber would you suggest. Eventually there will be a road up. While you may think we are putting the cart before the horse, all we are tying to do is set up a shelter to use for at least our first year, while we remove the trees and rocks that are in our "driveway"

-- Rick (WV) (Rick_122@hotmail.com), January 21, 2002.


There is a wealth of 'quick info' on the internet. I would suggest going to www.google.com (or other search engine of your choice) and type in 'rafter span' or 'rafter beams' or 'rafter truss span' and such. You will find many, many charts telling you how strong you need the roof rafters of all kinds & wind loads, snow loads, etc. It is difficult for us to tell you just what you need, as we really don't know your snow load requirement, distance between load bearing walls, etc. There are trusses, rafters, and on and on. (In many cases, a peaked roof is a lot cheaper than a long sloped roof - you need long beams (more $$$) for the long span, than to split it up into 2 halves. You also have the possibility of a small attic with a peaked roof, not with a sloped roof. And so on.) There are a couple of Southern Yellow Pine suppliers that have real good tables & charts that show all kinds of rafter, wall, and floor support dimentions for different wood grades. Check them out!

You are basically building a 1/2 - 2-stall pole building car shed garage, you can do a web search for those words as well and come up with much info on the actual building materials needed.

I would not cement poles into concrete as others said. You can put the poles in ground (some gravel) and pour a floating 4" (5 might be a stronger idea, better if a car goes in here...) floor.

The details on all this can be found by following web searches.

Again, all this is dependent on local building codes. Couldn't do any of it 'here' without a lot of red tape. :)

--->Paul

-- paul (ramblerplm@hotmail.com), January 21, 2002.



I assume pouring a slab is out of the question because of your remote location. If you were to pour a slab, the slab nor the gravel below the slab has to go below the frost line. Remember these are "floating" slabs. Since you have to physically have to haul building materials to your site, I'll assume you don't want to haul cement, sand, gravel, water, etc. for concrete. Many people in Minnesota build sheds and small cabins on loose concrete block piers. These piers (or pillars) are located at the corners of the structure and about every 6 to 8 feet along the stuctures perimeter. A pier is generally placed by digging a shallow hole to teh subsoil..in other words removing the topsoil (about 12 inches in most locations). The subsoil is conpacted by hand using a 4x4 post. Two three loose concrete blocks are placed on the compacted soil and the shallow hole is back filled. These "footings" will keep the shed a foot or so above the ground. If the soil freezes in your area, the shed/small cabin will likely shift an inch or two over the winter. What people then do is in the spring, jack the cabin up on the low side next to a pillar and slide in a wooden spacer. These process is repeated next to each pillar until the cabin is level again. The leveling of the shed sounds like a lot of work, but it really only has to be done every few years. I would not recommend this for a large or permanent sturcture. But it works just fine for sheds and small cabins.
--Happy trails, Cabin Fever

-- Cabin Fever (cabinfever_mn@yahoo.com), January 22, 2002.

Its me again have been thinking of your project. My question is what type of soil you have on your property? Can you dig in it fairly easy? The reason for these questions is that when I was trying to decide what I was going to build for my house I read a book "the $50 and up underground house". To be quite honest if my land was not so rocky and my back had been in better shape I think I would have used this type of construction. I had a lot of preconceived notions about living in a basement but I really think that this type of a dwelling would have put them all to rest. Even if you are not interested in doing the whole project underground his method for a floor could be a lot cheaper and less materials to have to bring on to your location. The floor is made by leveling your area then tamping it down either by using a 2x4 or similar object and tapping the area down. You would do this by first building the walls and roof then tapping down the floor area then putting a wood such as a 2x4 or landscaping timber around the wall with the surface level with floor then you lay plastic down then some type of carpeting over it. I the area you want to build on is well drained so that you would not have a river running through it I think that this would work. If you want more information regarding the construction of the house itself email me. If you would go this way for the floor I know you would save a lot of both money and materials you would have to haul in. In my way of thinking it would also allow you to use the shed for many other things than a shed with a floor in it could be used for.

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef@getgoin.net), January 22, 2002.

You might want to take a look at the newly developed 20'x 30' one story cottage plan at:

http://www.countryplans.com/20'wide.html

If you want it a little deeper for a later garage/shop, go to 24' wide. The lightest, easiest to handle and cheapest way to do longer spans is with I-Joists. They can be found on sale for 90 cents to $1 a foot. You use them instead of regular dimension lumber joists.

For a 20'or 24' ft deep roof the easiest way is with a sloped shed roof with I-Joists. For a 20'ft deep roof you can make one side 8'ft high and the other 10' ft. I would like to go a little higher than 10'ft with a 24'ft deep roof to get a steeper slope but it would not be a standard dimension unless it went up to 12'ft. That would create quite a dramatic cathedral ceiling and a real sense of spaciousness in a small house.

I would prefer a slab foundation with hydronic radiant heat with imbedded PEX tubing with a few control zones and only a good hot water heater for a source of heat. This is a much better more efficent system than forced hot air. In addition it will be much more comfortable and cheaper than a forced air furnace. It also has the added benefit of less problems due to no blowing of a lot of air around.

If you can't do a slab foundation then you can span the whole width of the house with the I-Joists and use a pier type or side footing type foundation.

Use of I-Joists will give you a solid floor & roof and also give you plenty of room for a lot of insulation(use 12" deep I-Joists for the roof). You could build it with just a bathroom & bedroom and just put in a inexpensive galley kitchen that you could expand later or transfer some of the components to a bigger house.

Good luck with your project.

Michael C

-- Michael C (noemailon@webposts.com), February 25, 2002.


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