Hi; I work for a very large Hi-Tech electronic company that designs and manufactures Aircraft electronics (avionics).I have been there for 20 years.After Sept 11th they jumped on the layoff bandwagon and we have had several layoffs.They have also implemented a 48 hour notification policy for absences and tardies.I receive 5 weeks of vacation and 1 week of 'personal time' per year.Under no circumstances are we allowed to be absent or tardy (including emergencies)without 48 hours previous permission (weekends do not count as part of the 48 hours).If I have a dead battery or the flue or a illness in the family I will be breaking their policy.If I get up in the morning and find out that my water heater is broken or have a water leak or a neighbor needs assistance I am screwed.I will loose $10,000 per year by changing employers right now.I am not looking for sympathy. My question is are there others whose company(s) have such a policy. Regards Ourfarm

-- Ourfarm (Ourfarm@noaddr.com), January 15, 2002

Answers

Response to 48 hour notification policy

I worked for a company with a similar policy. It was pretty clear to us that if there were more than one unscheduled absence or two tardies per review period (every six months) then you would be put on probation for three months. Any absences/tardies during the probation period and you would find yourself with an "unscheduled weeks vacation" - without pay of course!! This sure had a way of weeding out the unreliables.

I'm curious... how does your company enforce it's policy?

-- Mary (zoots25@hotmail.com), January 15, 2002.

Response to 48 hour notification policy

I do not think they can fire you for true family emergencies (someone with a lawyer is going to have a field day) as long as you can prove the emergency exists. On the other hand, your neighbor's emergency is not legally "your" emergency, and any company would be justified in denying leave in this instance. Do you have a union? I would complain to them, or to human resourses (sometimes referred to as EEO offices).

I have seen restricted sick leave, where you were considered AWOL until you brought in your doctor's note (so if you were scamming you at least couldn't get an early start), but that was only applied to people who abused the existing sick leave policy. Also, if you were denied "spot leave" (leave other than what you bid for at the beginning of the year) and then "happened" to call in sick that day, you could be disciplined.

Were people abusing the entire leave (both vacation and sick) system in your company? If you have a good attendance record, you might be able to prove some type of discrimination.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 15, 2002.

Response to 48 hour notification policy

If you live in a "Right to Work" state, basically a company can do whatever it wants.

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), January 15, 2002.

Response to 48 hour notification policy

I'm betting that the first time you puke on your supervisor's shoes, they will rethink that policy regarding illness.

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), January 15, 2002.

Response to 48 hour notification policy

Laura, thats what I was going to say,, go to work,,sick as a dog,, lay in the corner in your own mess,, see how long it takes to send you home,, and when they try,, refuse to go home,, unless they give YOU a 48 hour notice

-- Stan (sopal@net-port.com), January 15, 2002.

Response to 48 hour notification policy

,,,,,,BTW , that policy would be illegal in some sates,, but those "right to work" states, can get away with anything,, as mentioned above :)

-- Stan (sopal@net-port.com), January 15, 2002.

Response to 48 hour notification policy

Hi; No we do not have a union (our sister factory in Iowa has one,thats why we were created offsite).We have 1000 people on our campus.We are a right to work state.There are always those who abuse the policys,but it is a mature workforce and most people have 15 to 20 years (4 to 5 weeks of vacation available).It is just that now with the airline problems and the ecomony,they have us by the 'you know whats'. There were already policys in place the address those that 'take advantage'. We recently hired a new HR person that previously managed an HMO. I would imagine that she is getting kudos for the great idea that will give them a reason to lower or pay increases and make us feel bad about ourselves because we were unlucky enough to have an emergency. I had a horse that decided to dig up a water line on sunday evening. Giving notice first thing on Monday morning,it will be wednesday before my 48 hours are up,so we get to carry water to the back of the property to water our animals until then. I just wanted to know how wide-spread this policy is. Ourfarm

-- ourfarm (ourfarm@noaddr.com), January 15, 2002.

Response to 48 hour notification policy

Hi i was wondering if all states that have right to work are mainley republican? se, ks used to be the best place in the USA to work till right to work passed. they left off part of it what it really means is the right to work for less.min.wage. Bob se,ks.

-- Bobco (bobco@kans.com), January 15, 2002.

Our school district has that policy. It is ignored because the people who work there have compassion, brains, and a more realistic understanding of life than the people who wrote the policy.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), January 15, 2002.

Response to 48 hour notification policy

The company i worked for implented identical policies 2 quarters before they canned me for eight days on medical leave without prior notice (I had suffered a neural collapse from fatique). What you describe is SOP during layoffs.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 15, 2002.

That is the problem you all have when you don't have UNION REPRESENTATION!!!!!! Just one more reason to vote YES vote UNION!!

-- Dave Dengel (Mopars@kyol.net), January 15, 2002.

Unions really don't have the effect that they once had. Look what their actions have succeeded in doing in CA and up north. The jobs are coming to "right to work states" and foriegn countries. The money people will always call the shots as they have in the past. The best that the employee can ever do is look out for themselves and invest for their own futures without dependence totally on the employer.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 15, 2002.

Ourfarm, too bad you can't take a buyout package!

Dave, depending on your skill sets, unions can actually be detrimental to your earning power over time because you are tied to that union contract. However, if your skills are in demand, you can write your own ticket--they can't afford to lose you.

Jay is right, the only person you can depend on is yourself.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 15, 2002.

Jay you're right unions are not what they used to be, they are making an effort to change with the times. Despite those who chose or had to leave the North and Ca., we who choose to remain have above poverty level wages, health care and a pension to look forward to someday. Many of those lured away have returned from whence they came because of the bs the right to work causes. It's great when the companies are screaming for help but when the economy goes kaput you're a pawn in a money chess game that really doesn't concern you just you're livelyhood and way of life away from work. I'd like to believe that most unions are still striving to promote and preserve a better way of life that, from the previous posts, many of our neighbors are not experiencing. I'm as independent as anybody I know but I also have learned over the last 16 years the value of the phrase that there is "safety in numbers". Think of it this way. The more people who collectively contribute to a health care plan have more clout(money) so premiums are cheaper than buying individually. When you have a collective group of people(in this case call it a union)striving toward a goal 1000 or 500 voices are louder than 1,1,1,1,1,1,1.

-- Pete (pdfitz@mkl.com), January 15, 2002.

Pete,

I wasn't refering to workers. I was refering to employers moving operations from union stronghold states to right to work states to avoid reduced profitability resulting from high operation overhead and union efforts. The company that I worked for was puchased by a California based company that has begun transfering its base of operations and many of its employees to Alabama to benifit from the appealing business environment resulting from the RTW classifications. I have also read where many CA based companies are relocating out of country due to power accessability and labor costs.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 15, 2002.

Hi Ourfarm,

My last "real job" was in 1992 as a Director/VP of R&D for a huge telecom company. We did business in 129 countries and had engineers in 69 countries. Most of my life was spent on airplanes and in corporate meetings. Not fun.

Like most companies, the employees were ridden hard and put up wet. The company began implementing stupid policies and procedures when the market went soft and the CEO got himself into some legal trouble. Generally, stupid policies are created and implemented by smart people doing stupid things for short-term gains. In my case, the company started implementing the "20-40-60" rule, which is getting rid of anyone who has more than 20 years of service, is over 40 years old, and making more than $60,000/year. At the time, I was way over these thresholds.

And, as usual, the younger good swimmers voluntarily jumped first. The best people were quick to bail out early, before the local job market became saturated with dumped employees. It's been my personal observation that people with talent, who are the real brains and sweat that help companies make money, can also make money for themselves, if they are willing to take the plunge.

The general executive rule of thumb is that a company can save $1M, by getting rid of 10 people making $100K each (including benefits). Getting rid of 20 people making $50K each also saves $1M. You get the idea.

I tell you from first-hand experience and working at the highest corporate levels, that company executives as a group are ruthless, have little or no compassion for people, have no loyalty, and will always take care of themselves first. I think the Enron mess speaks plainly to this point.

The executive management point of view in many companies is that the company can always find and hire other people whenever needed. "YOU" are just a "resource." Nothing personal mind you, but you are simply a collection of various skill sets. Why do you think the name of the "Personnel Department" became "Human Resources." In today's corporate culture, nothing is "Personal," despite all the eyewash to the contrary.

If you work in any support function (e.g. quality control, safety, services, administration, payroll, etc.) you are frequently considered "non-essential," when it comes time to reduce the work force. If you are not in the top 50% of the sales force, you are expendable. Only the top engineers, and programmers, experienced in company product lines are retained.

In a lot of companies, those people willing to work 50-60 hours per week without complaining, while only getting paid for 40 hours, are considered favorably. Sweat shops don't just apply to immigrants. Replacing hourly labor with a salaried exempt work force allows a company to get more work out of people without paying for it. It's against the law to not pay an hourly employee overtime, but not so with salaried folks. If you are in the work force these days, I suggest you consider yourself a "Permanent Temporary" and build your career accordingly.

Often, a company is trying to solve problems that are a direct result of stupid policies and stupid decisions made by people lacking real vision or management talent. More than just a few corporate executives use both the Shin Tsu and Herod the Great (which he wasn't) models simultaneously. By this I mean these executives are at war with everyone and will kill anyone in the organization they consider a threat. Regrettably, these models are emulated by up and coming managers and the resulting saga continues. Read that as: "The way to become successful and get ahead in this company is to do the same things the big guys do." Companies perpetuate their own legacies and ultimately the country is damaged by such stupid practices.

If your company is using 9/11 and Boeing's problems as excuses to justify cutbacks and layoffs, then you might want to look into their financial targets for restructuring. At one time in my life I worked for Lockheed. I must tell you I marvel that your company management is unable to shift avionics work and products from commercial to military products, given increased defense budgets and an air war underway. Sounds like pissy management planning to me and you can tell them I said so. The company sounds like its ripe for takeover or merger.

In any event, restructuring targets are not always obvious and identifying them might take some research on your part, including finding out how much real total debt the company is carrying. Some simple financial ratios, trends, 10K reports and annual reports can help here. The symptoms you've described are sometimes indicative of deeper company problems. The policies and practices you described are pimple picking. Don't be surprised if they start selling off assets (companies, inventories), cut or eliminate benefits, and get rid of people. Also, keep an eye on unusual stock trades or large blocks of stock selloffs, which are sometimes done six months to a year before a company's collapse by those who know the company is headed for financial trouble. A sudden increase in large amounts of debt not justified or supported by increased revenues is also a troublesome warning sign.

The corporate financial model is simple: Sales minus Expenses equals Revenue. Just like a household budget. The executives' objective is to balance the bottom line and there are only two routes to that line: Either Increase Sales or Decrease Expenses. The quickest and easiest way to improve the bottom line (albeit temporary) is to cut expenses. The overall objective is to keep the company afloat to live and re-grow another day. For-Profit stock companies must also provide returns to their owners (stockholders) and this frequently means getting rid of the hired help in order to help pay dividends, but management never admits to this. The issue is always "Cash Flow," no matter how big a company gets. At the end of the day, no positive cash flow equals no company.

There was no personal reason for me to leave my job. I was very secure. But, I'd finally just had enough. I was disgusted at the way people were being treated. Also, the best and brightest brains were leaving in droves. Not a good omen for someone like me who needed such talent to develop an bring forth new products. Also, there was too much corporate inertia in place for me to overcome and the status quo ruled.

Anyhow, my wife and I discussed our alternatives, and at age 50, I quit. We sold our house, spent a year finding the property we wanted, bought it and moved to the country. Without any guarantees, I started my own company and have never looked back. If you have even a modest amount of talent, there is absolutely no reason to doubt yourself. Companies want people to think they can't make it out in the cold cruel world on their own. To that I say "Horse Hockey!" Despite numerous opportunities to do so, there is absolutely no way I will ever return to the corporate world.

With all the hard work and potential pitfalls, the freedom that comes with self-reliance and self-employment can't be beat. IMHO there are few legitimate reasons for someone to remain trapped inside a company living with stupid policies put in place by stupid decisions and all of the stress and uncertainty that such an environment breeds.

For what its worth I have two suggestions. First, find and map a route out of your rut. Always looking over your shoulder and worrying that you'll be the next person to get the axe just isn't worth it. Petty little absence and tardiness policies are demeaning and a nitpicking 48 hour advance notice rule is at best a joke. Shackles, threats and sticks don't motivate people. Clearly, your company HR and senior management people are clueless about how to manage an organization. You have to be asking youself why you are still there putting up with such crap? Can you swim?

Someone once wrote, "If the horse is dead -- get off!" That may mean changing or simplifying your lifestyle, selling the boat, finding a part-time job to pay for health insurance; whatever, but write out the plan you want to pursue and implement it -- now. Second, watch your back. From the information you provided, you sound like a target for the "20-40-60" rule.

Best of Luck. Ed

-- Ed (ecpubs@lynchburg.net), January 16, 2002.

I spent 35 years in the Human Resource field.The company can fire you for many reasons, however they can't violate any laws when they do it. Example; You are sick and go on disability. Laws such as Americans with Disabilities Acts offer you protection. If this policy results in terminating more of one gender than another, of more of one race than another, you could be looking at violations of the employment discrimination statutes in the federal laws. No matter what the laws of your state are if there is a federal law that is more restrictive, it will take precident. Likewise if the state law is more restrictive, it will be the one the employer has to live with. My advice is for you to locate a good lawyer who specilizes in Labor Law and work with that person.

-- Paul (treewizard@buffalo.com), January 16, 2002.

Paul,

As you point out , they can't violate the ADA outright, however, if a long term employee that is heavily invested in company shares reaches a "gentlemans agreement " with the two levels of management above him to take unpaid sabbatical leave to preclude any additional overhead costs, then during the leave time, the same management elects instead to put you on paid administrative overhead, which is a blemishing action, its hard to fight when layoffs are occuring at the same time. As Ed pointed out all employees are temporary, some more than others. The days of the gold watch are gone , unless you do as I did and buy yourself a gold pocket watch with the cash part of your employee savings investments that cannot be rolled over into the IRA. I even had it engraved "In recognition of 18 years dedication in service to the Company" and my employment dates. I remember my father retiring employees after 20 + years and he gave them a special gold watch, no workings, solid gold filled and the hands were set to 5:01. Times have changed in 30 years. Now an employee needs to posess intelligence and self confidence instead of dedication so that they may plan for the future so as to pursue a position , possibly at a lower wage, venture out on their own in a start up or opt for early retirement. Seldom does anyone make the 20 + mark with an employer anymore. In my 18 years I only saw nine make full retirement in a company born the same month I was with over 4000 employees in my plant location.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 16, 2002.

Arkansas, the land of Bill Clinton.......is a right to work state.

-- Rickstir (rpowell@email.ccis.edu), January 16, 2002.

Hi; Ed Thanks for the comments (thanks to everyone).I am an Eng Tech Spec, in the lab today I swear that I looked over my shoulder several times to see if you were there.You seem alot like many of my co-workers.It is like reading a Dilbert cartoon (just rotate the tires instead of fixing the flat).Many of us have always called ourselves 'migrant electronic workers' because everyone is really a temp employee,some of us just stay around long enough to get comfortable (golden or velvet handcuffs).I am a very strong swimmer and 'on top of my game'. I will just pick my exit on my terms.The first layoff got %30 of my dept. The second got maybe %10 of the factory (most of the %10 volunteered to leave after the crappy treatment following Sept 11th). Jay you also seem like someone that I have worked with for 20 years. Those of you that suggested puking on my Mgr's shoes.I promise that will happen if the need arises.Right now the Mgrs and Spvrs sit alone or with each other at lunch.We just smile at them knowing that they are aware that everyone hates them (lemmings).There may be legit tough times,but never forget who makes or breaks a company reputation. Regards Ourfarm

-- Ourfarm (Ourfarm@noaddr.com), January 16, 2002.

All of us in the electronic/computer/defense avionics contract manufacturing sector have seen it the same wherever we are. I still cringe when I remember how some managers cannot fathom the bit of manufacturing production/engineering lab wisdom "Good , Fast or Cheap. You may choose only two, not all three".

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 16, 2002.

If I read your original post correctly, you are not penalized for the number of notices, but would be for any un-notified tardies or absences. My solution would be to print up a year's worth of 48 hour notices to the effect that "due to unforseen and unforseeable circumstances, you may (or may not) be either tardy or absent 48 hours hence". Start dropping one off at the office every morning.

Heck, be a swell guy and print up several batches for your friends. Be a real swell guy and put the form out on the internet in a downloadable form so that anybody who needs them can make their own copies. I give the head office about 3 months total before the sheer stupidity of their ruling becomes patently clear. If griped at, simply claim that as a loyal and faithful employee, you thought long and hard about the new rule and decided that it must be neccessary or they would not have implemented it and that you would hate it if the unpredictable nature of your life ended up causing the company lost man-hours without adequate (and required) warning.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), January 17, 2002.

And What are working fathers and mothers supposed to do? Leave their sick kids home alone?

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), January 17, 2002.

I can't talk about my unfortunate situation and lack of a job because my former company (which I loved - note past tense) can sue me if I do. Don't even ask. Yikes!

-- Susan in Northern Michigan (cobwoman@yahoo.com), January 17, 2002.

As for unions not having the effect they used to have.... You can thank the MAGGOT Bill Clinton and also Ronald Reagan for union busting and allowing NAFTA etc... It is the politican's responsiblity to listen to the working man and not the MONEY man (companies) etc... We have such a trade imbalance it isn't funny. BE AMERICAN....BUY AMERICAN!!

-- Dave Dengel (Mopars@kyol.net), January 17, 2002.

Hey Dave (Mopars)-- Good point, I agree, buy American...NORTH American. Honey in grocery stores is cheaper if you purchase South American. WATCH THE LABELS. I refuse...I'll pay more just for honey from our brothers and sisters in the North East. I may want to raise honey in the future too. Hey Stan you out there? How was your honey crop this year?

-- Susan in Northern Michigan (cobwoman@yahoo.com), January 18, 2002.

HI; I have had a co-worker whose aunt died, ask for 24 hour notice to attend her funeral.Spvr told her it was unplanned,and asked if she still wanted off.Another told the sprv on a Friday that his daughter need emergency surgery on Monday.He also said it was unplanned and asked if he still wanted it off.Yet another woman's father had a stroke in another state on a Friday and spvr once again said unplanned,due you still want off.This is 3 people near me over about 1 1/2 months. I believe that in a company this size,that probably every day or two that there is someone hasseled about this.I believe that the company counts on most people to just feel bad that they are causing the 'company' a hardship by their emergencies,and just look at their shoes as they walk off.I agree that excessive tardies and abscences warrant attention.If normal abscences and tardies cause such turmoil then the company is being poorly run.

-- ourfarm (Ourfarm@noaddr.com), January 18, 2002.

Very sorry to hear of your predicament. If you think you may get the ax or something similiar, I would pay off my debts and consolidate my assets so you are in a good position if or when that time should come. Meanwhile, get a good headhunter and send out those resumes! You might find something you like better than what you have now with better benefits. Or perhaps go into business for yourself. I am truly sorry that so many in right to work states are treated like so many cattle...but down here if you mention the word "union" you may lose your job. Some applications even ask if you have ever been in a union. If you answer yes, you are guaranteeing not to be hired. We once had a plant which tried to unionize. The parent company closed the plant down (due to economic reasons) and left town. Put 600 people out of work. You don't come south and holler union...that's why so many companies come south. Cheap labor and the right to let employees go at will.

Take care,

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), January 18, 2002.

There are other reasons besides unions for companies to leave certain states/cities. Domestic Partner insurance, for one. I don't care what sex you are, you shouldn't be able to just "shack up" and get health care for that person, but on the other hand not be able to add parents/ siblings out of work, etc. I would happily pay an extra $20 per month to be able to do that. Family should come before shack ups.

Unions have done some good things in the past, but they are so top heavy with administration that they are worse than useless, particularly if you are a good worker (but great for slackers). Also, many resent the fact that their dues go to political causes that they don't agree with. I think all places should be open shop.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 18, 2002.