Cal. schools teaching Islam

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread

I can't get the cut and paste to work so I can't post the article, but on Timebomb2000.com there is a thread on California schools requiring seventh graders to take a course on Islam. Among other things in this course they: "wear a robe, adopt a Muslim name and stage their own jihad (playing a game with dice).....There are 25 Islamic terms that must be memorized, six Islamic (Arabic) phrases, 20 Islamic proverbs to learn along with the Five Pillars of Faith and ten key Islamic prophets and disciples to be studied." I am outraged!!! There's more in the article if you want to go there.

-- Deena in GA (dsmj55@aol.com), January 11, 2002

Answers

One more reason why if I still had small children, I would be homeschooling! I'm really worried what this country is going to be for the next generation.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 11, 2002.

Maybe if we all knew more about the Islamic faith the world would not be in the situation it is now.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 11, 2002.

I'm praying! and not to Allah or however you spell it.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 11, 2002.

John is right in what he says. Yes, maybe things would be different. Who Knows? The point Deena is alluding to, of course is, that it's NOT legal to teach ANY faith in publick skools. This is, if you agree w/ the prevailing interpretation of Article I of the Constitution.

I don't personally believe the intepretation is valid as it is currently enforced. Whole 'nuther topic tho.

If John were privy to all the hub-bub that goes on here every Christmas, such as, red poinsetta plants not being allowed in public buildings in Minnesota because of some vague connection to Christian beliefs, maybe he'd understand. My point being, that even an appearance of, or a remote connection to Christianity in a government institution is verboten. But a Islam class is required in publick schools in California? Mixed messages here. All or none.

According to the 10th Amendment, California SHOULD be able to teach whatever it's constituents want and are willing to put up w/ & pay for. The Federal Gooberment has no Constitutional authority in skooling our kids anyway. We return you now to our regular programing.

-- John in S IN (jdoofus@hotmail.com), January 11, 2002.


Hello Folks,

Sounds like fun! I wished they had offer those kind of course to me when I was in the seventh grade. Lets not poison our children with the feelings we adults have about religions and governments.

Sincerely,

Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), January 11, 2002.



How complacent are some folks regarding this news item! Teaching about anything other than Christianity will more than likely become the norm as time goes on, because we wouldn't want to offend anybody would we???? Naturally, one would assume then that in Muslim countries, Christianity is taught so as to not offend the Christians, eh? Of course not, because the folks form other nations aren't as foolish as we are. Lets all be compacent and smile in tolerance..maybe someday soon we'll get to see "In Allah we trust" on our coins without a shot being fired! My children couldn't make a star of bethlehem in grammar school because some atheists were "offended", yet the grand and glorious ever-tolerant state of California would have my child learning about Islam with my tax dollars???????????????? I am SO glad I live in the middle of nowhere...and on days like this it is not far enough.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 11, 2002.

Lesley, we quite likely have little control over what is taught in Islamic countries but we do (or should) have some influence over what is taught in schools in our own countries. Children should be taught the things that are important and right now it appears an understanding of Islam very desirable, or do you think ignorance will make the problems (whatever they are) go away?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 12, 2002.

Well doesn't that all just open the door for a great big wallopun' law suit? After all, it IS California, where if you get a bruise on your knee and good lawyer in an accident you caused, it nets you 30k!!!

John Hill, I think John in IN explained it about as well as anyone can (nice!!), Islam doesn't need anymore understanding here than any other religion. Our nation's history is what should really be taught-if you haven't noticed we are all losing our roots, and the US happens to be based in Christianity.

If the schools get into the role of teaching religion, they are going to need to teach ALL religions.But that sure won't happen, because we can't have children exposed to Christ when we have kicked God out of everything.Grrrr.

When I was in fourth grade we were all hypnotized with no parental consent to it or anything. Actually, I wasn't, but I was stubborn even then;).So this kind of thing has been going on a long time. If anyone still has kids in school, I would hope they are fully aware of what the kid's are learning.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), January 12, 2002.


Knowing about a religion and or culture helps us to understand a situation and to make the appropriate decisions. And on that subject what do you think of the case being brought by Lt. Col.Martha McSally?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 12, 2002.

Lt.Col Martha McSally is 100% correct..a single voice of reason and common sense amid a sea of political correctness."we are guests in their country" indeed...Here we have the US military willing to insult one of it's own and have her behave as if she is a second class citizen so that the folks of the Middle East are not made to feel "uncomfortable"..GOOD GRIEF. Have we no sense of SELF in this country anymore????????? If the Saudis were over here and had their women off their bases, do you for one minute believe that they would be made to wear slacks and tee shirts so the Americans would not be offended???????? I am so incredibly sick and tired of folks apologizing for being who they are and what they are. This woman is an officer in the US Military and should be accorded the respect due her position. Since she went through the proper chain of command and got nowhere, good for her for suing the Defense department..they need a wake up call. America IS what it IS and Americans are WHO they are..we need not pretend to be anybody else..We speak ENGLISH as a nation, our coinage says IN GOD WE TRUST, we swear in our leaders ON THE BIBLE, our military has WOMEN officers..like it or lump it to the rest of the world...arghhh, my liver is feeling ill, my blood pressure is up..think I'll run for Congress before it's too late.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 12, 2002.


If I lived in your district you would have my vote!!!

If schools want to teach religion, then they had better make darn sure they teach ALL religions, including ufology, suffism, frisbitarianism, atheism (short chapter), EVERYTHING! If they want to just cover the seven major religions, fine-equal time for all of them, but parental permission should be required.

I'm still in awe of Lesley's fine rant...good one, sis!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), January 12, 2002.


And I suppose it would be OK for those hypothetical Saudi visitors, male or female, to smoke their hookahs in public?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 13, 2002.

Actually, the public schools have been teaching atheism for a very long time. It is called darwinism. They also teach yoga, TM, occultism, demonology, pantheism and the whole rainbow of unclean and false religions. Why not throw Islam on the dirt pile too? I'm sure they are making it as fun as possible, too, like they do with occultisms.

I do teach my children about Islam because we have Moslem friends. I've had these books for several years that compare the similarities to Christianity and compares the glaring differences that prove we don't have the same God.

But before we can go through these books, my kids need to know how to read. This is a big step up from California P S, or the impoverished, uneducated and illiterate citizens that must depend on the censorship of their Mullahs and government to define their religion.

Moslems believe they have the same god as Christians. That is what they are taught, but they are not allowed to read the Bible, so how can they do a comparative study? It is up to us so we can talk to them about Christ.

Just chalk this one up to one more reason we don't live in California or use public schools.

-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), January 13, 2002.


Hmmmm! Not much cultural or religous tolerance on here....

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 13, 2002.

John, if Hookah smoking were legal, sure they could..all they wanted to. As far as cultural or religious "tolerance" on "here": I was raised in the slums of Boston among some of the most wonderful folks in the universe. I was the only one in 8 blocks whose family came from the USA. My buddies were Russian, Chinese, Libian, Syrian, Italian, Puerto Rican and Greek. I got to sample all kinds of wonderful ethnic foods and customs, like Eda Houhoulia's feather bed brought all the way form the Ukraine..it was Eddie Ayube's mother who taught me to bake baklava, and on Friday nights we would all go dancing at the Greek Orthodox church until we counldn't stand any more. Lorenzo Sciulli's mother used to toss dried beans down on the stoop from their 5th floor window when it was time for us to go home. All of these families had one thing in common...they were PROUD to be American citizens. They made certain that they and their kids learned English, did their homework, and behaved themselves in public so as not to disgrace the family. There was no such thing as putting their own culture above anybody elses..we were WHO we were. Never once did I want to BE Greek or Italian or Lithuanian anymore than my friends wanted to have Irish-English-Canadian-Cherokee Indian ancestors. Everyone was American FIRST and where they came from SECOND...that;s what made my neighborhood terrific. By the time I was 19, I felt as if I had traveled all over the world. I have no problem with immigrants or other religions at all. I find them to be interesting, some more than others. What i find to be outrageous is the concept that some folks feel it is not only OK, but necessary to defend the teaching of religions in a public school, as long as it is not Christianity which is being taught. Religion of ANY kind should not be taught in public schools. This is why there are classes in college for folks who wish to learn about Islam, Buddism, Shintuism, etc. as well as Christianity. There are non-credit courses of the same ilk in community colleges across the country fro thoise who are interested. When I was in grade school, it was thougt sufficient to instruct children that there WERE other people in the world who did not think like Americans or dress like them or speak like them. We learned culture in the realm of history and geography. Other folks were neither elevated nor put down. As a parent, I chose to teach my children that although there are other religions in the world, THIS is the one which we believe in. I never taught my children to have hate or intolerance for anyone. No religion should be taught in public school, period.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 13, 2002.


Well, John, last time I was in California it was pretty much illegal to smoke anything anywhere in public, no smoking in restaurants, no smoking in bars and there were even no smoking signs in the city parks and near the benches outside public buildings where people used to go to smoke. There is even talk down there in California to regulate smoking in private homes. So no, I don't think that Moslem wives will be smoking hookahs in public in California.

Have YOU ever read the Koran? Have you ever read what Mohamed claims allah's teaching is on how a man is to treat his wife? While I have much love and respect for my Jordanian and Iraqi Moslem friends, who probably are not very good muslems according to mid-eastern standards, this is not the kind of marriage or life I would want for me or any of my daughters.

My point is, California public schools, the cutting edge of America, cannot teach children to read or write or to do math. We are now at the bottom of the educational ladder of the world and are even being surpassed by third world nations in basic education. If they cannot even teach these basics, they have no business teaching ANY religion. But if California parents want their schools to teach Islam instead of basic skills, well they can just go for it. I would no more be willing to dictate and force them to my standards education than I would be willing for them to tell me what to teach in my home.

-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), January 14, 2002.


No I have not read the Koran which is one reason why I hesitate before making any comment on the right or wrong of Islamic authorities forcing women to cover up.

I raised the examples of Lt. Col. McSally and smoking and found the responses very interesting, apparently anyone visiting the US is expected to abide by the local laws but this obligation does not apply to americans in other countries? I am not debating whether the laws of the Middle East that oblidge a women to cover all her charms are more or less valid that those that allow female pop stars to simulate masturbation on my TV.

Schools should teach the things that are important and a knowledge of religions would appear to be crucial at this point in history. Please note that I said a 'knowledge of' religions rather than indoctrination.

If we knew more about the various cultures and religions of the world we might better understand just what is going on and maybe, just maybe, avoid passing on a world of universal misery and suffering to our children.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 14, 2002.


You are right, John. Being culturally sensitive is a very important issue and I've seen prime examples of American acting like total pigs while in other countries....but....an American soldier in uniform is an American soldier in uniform. It is the uniform that commands respect, and the body in it because they earned that uniform and the respect regardless of their gender. As far as I know, the only official military garment for women that would meet the criteria of Islamic Extremists would be the GI body bag.

My muslim friends do not wear full coverage black drapes. They dress like Americans, that is why they came to America so they could be free to wear what they want and to work where they want. It is a crime when these women were trained to be doctors and lab technicians and pediatricians before an ultra conservative faction took over the politics and they were forced to their homes and not allowed to leave without a male relative escort.

There are no pop stars on my TV simulating anything because they are not allowed to do that in my home. In fact, there are no pop stars at all on my TV unless you consider Little Bear a pop star. We pulled the cable years ago.

You are right John. Cultural education is important. All you know about America is what you read or see on TV. Why don't you come on over, spend a week in Los Angeles, spend a week in San Francisco, then road trip to visit all your Freedom Forum Friends. Man, will you see diversity!

-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), January 14, 2002.


When in high school I had exhausted the Social Sciences and History departments so my senior year I set up my own curriculum and and did a course of comparative religions including all of the major religions in the world. I don't see anything wrong with teaching religion as a social or world studies course, but Laura and Lesley are right. We can barely get half of the students who graduate with 12 years of "education" to read at an eighth grade level. It is terrifically sad... and to have this school system requiring a course on Islam is,well, downright silly. It's just glamorizing it by the descrption.

I'm in complete agreement with you, John, that we should learn about other cultures, and that it would help in understanding and hopefully negate the foolishness of hating something about which they know nothing. Yet it shouldn't be kneejerk, and it shouldn't be teaching only one religion and neglecting the others.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), January 14, 2002.


Laura, I agree with you that people should read the Koran--as a woman it is very offensive to think that all you are is property--but there are people in this country who use the Bible as justification for spousal abuse too, so....

As to the smoking, it is a fact that second-hand smoke kills. I am glad that smoking has been outlawed in many buildings, though I have NO problems with people smoking in their own homes (although many landlords don't permit it anymore because they always have to repaint, etc., afterwards, not to mention fire liability) or in the parks. When outside, I just move away from the smoke, but I should not be forcibly exposed to it (as you are in any building, no matter how state-of-the- art the ventilation system) like at work.

Further, if you are going to teach religion, teach them ALL religions, not just one.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 14, 2002.


It is 07:30 and I am about to go for another day at the office well pleased with the responses to my posts on this forum.

Laura, you under-estimate my experience of life in the USA but you are quite right in assuming it to be limited, in fact the most enduring impressions are of the longest hours in my life which were spent in Terminal 3 at LAX, I appear to have almost forgotten my experiences in and around Salinas CA. The road trip is very tempting.

Doreen, I am very pleased that we agree on something! :-) I am sorry but I can't suggest anything that will help the education system with problems that appear to be almost universal, well at least in the 'developed' world, have you seen the recent statistics for Germany? I don't think the problem can be eased by omitting vital and topical subjects. P.S. Did you get those trailer lights fixed?

GT, you are quite right about abuse of religion to push chauvinistic (?spelling) or political barrows, my feeling is that if we knew more about true Islam we might be better able to discriminate between what are truly religious issues are the others. I agree knowledge of all religions is the ideal but Islam is the issue of the moment, probably of the decade and maybe of the century.

I detest all forms of smoking and can report that all smokers in our family have died as have most of my smoking ex-workmates. The tragedy in this country is that although very few adults smoke the filthy habit has a strong following among young women presumably as a substitute to eating as they prostrate themselves on the altar of body image.

OK off to the salt mine now to think of Laura's suggestion of another visit to Uncle Sam. I have enough air points to cover the major expense but a rented car could be a problem, that last time I did that (in Monterey CA) the steering wheel was on the wrong side and I could hardly reach it from the driver's seat!

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 14, 2002.


Well John, you can always rent my mail Jeep!! The wheel is on the correct side for you, but you will still need o drive on the wrong side of the road...and you can't go over 65 in this. Honestly 65 mph is almost like a roller coaster in the ole DJ 5. And btw, LA is hell, or close enough to be a bone marrow candidate!

I've not heard any stats for Germany. I am aware there is a great amount of angst over immigration there as there is here. A lot of trouble in the education system is because instead of worrying about teaching the basics of education as in reading, writing and arithmetic, it has become more concerned with social adaptation and feeding the kids breakfast and lunch. The sad thing is a lot of the kids only eat breakfast and lunch...augggh.

ps. Didn't get to mess with the trailer lights again. But I copied your response and I believe that is the problem. Hopefully I will be able to take care of by the weekend. Thanks!!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), January 15, 2002.


John, you just need to learn to drive "right." =)

-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), January 15, 2002.

I consider the "Dice jihaad game" is a stupid assault on our religion. If they sincerely wanted to know about Islaam, they would have asked Muslims. I am sure the Muslims in your country will agree.
Afghanistan News

-- 12312 (123@12312.123), March 17, 2002.

Do you all believe every internet rumor that goes around or what??? Maybe you should check for the facts before you fly off the handle. Did anyone here do that? Whoever the enemy may be, they won't have much of a fight when you all confuse and distract each other with disinfo and misguided rumors. While you wring your hands over the perceived enemies, the real one will bite you in the ass someday.

Eat much spoon-fed propaganda lately?

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/byronislam.htm

-- no (no@no.no), March 18, 2002.


It seems your question would be reflexive. There were a number of reports about this and interveiws with people from various school boards. Why don't you go and see if you can't determine what's going on while it is happening instead of relying on debunking months later?

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 18, 2002.

The Quraan does not say that all women are property, if you are talking about slavery then men are property too. Its not racist slavery like in america, its for the captured prisoners of war, black Muslims kept white europeans as slaves.

Dailyislaam.pitas.com

-- Copy (copy@greenspun.com), July 28, 2002.


PLEASE GO THROUGH THE FOLLOWING PAGES AT THE WEBSIDE Kindly send this to others as well.

http://www.cap-press.com/bookinfo.php3?id=1208

With warm regards,

-- Maimul Ahsan Khan (MKHAN@UCDAVIS.EDU), July 12, 2003.


Dear Islams Iam vary interesting islamic school.

-- yousufi (dahabsoor@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.

Dear All,

There is a Saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church, called Saint Kosmas, who has made many prophecies. Many of them have been fulfilled. Many other prophecies are seeming to become more apparent in today' society and one wonders wether these are going to be fulfilled as well.

One interesting thing you may all like to know, is that one of the prophecies, about after or during a great war (which has not come about yet) is that one third of the muslims (I think its Turks mainly, not sure) will become Orthodox, one third will die, and the other third will go back deep into a place called "kokini milia" where they came from.

True teaching of Christianity in the West was destroyed by the Crusades and other "Papal" matters, however the East remains to this day the original Church founded on the blood of Jesus Christ, not founded of the Pope, or Luther who were merely men who wanted to pick and choose pieces of the bible and state claims that only suited them.

The conspiracy behind everything is, your government, who says they beleive in "God", wants to incites violence against Muslims, so the Muslims can attack the Christians, and destory the true faith. This is the work of the Devil himself. Beleive it or not. I ain't here because a monkey decided to walk,(Creation) then talk, then build an aeroplane and bomb others for oil.

Read books, look at the miracles of the Church. Search on the Internet for Saint Kosmas the Aitolian, search for the Miracle of the Holy Light. There are many more things. Investigate, and be enlightened.

God Bless.

-- Jim Dhouglaki (JDI@gr.net), June 15, 2004.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ