A couple of recent posts got me to thinking today while I was resting on the couch. One was about abuse by a respected church member, the other about finding a "church" or other organization which does not spend too much of its time "preaching". I got to thinking that perhaps the themes of these posts are, in a way, related.

I want to state, as a sort of disclaimer, that I am in no way trying to criticize any one particular church, denomination, group, individual, or whatever. I am in no way insinuating anything about the individuals who started or participated in the two posts I alluded to. I am not naming names or pointing fingers, just trying to make a general observation.

In the case of abuse, this occurs in churches and among church families more often than we would like to admit. It is like the proverbial elephant in the living room. We know it is there, but we don't want to talk about it. Also, many people do find it hard to believe that Mr. World's Best Youth Group Leader could be guilty of such a horrendous crime. The child who dares to speak up about the abuse is often criticized or labeled "dirty little liar".

Then there are the people who come to church to hear nice, comfortable, "God loves everybody" sermonettes with themes like forgiveness, doing good to your neighbour, etc. Just don't let the sermon be too long; dinner's in the oven and Grandma's coming. Let's spend more time looking for the good in everybody, let's see what we have in common, and let's get together to do some good deed for the community.

The connection here is that there is a little word that everybody wants to forget--SIN, and its brother--CONFRONTATION. The original purpose of preaching was to confront people with the sin in their hearts both collectively (preacher to congregation) and individually (private counselling). In this way, sin is exposed and crimes are either prevented or stopped. The problem comes when some of us would rather not have our private little sins exposed, so we go looking for some other group who will help us "do good" while leaving us alone about our sin.

I have heard of so many people, some of them on this forum, who have turned away from church totally because of the hypocrisy in the church where they grew up. If we truly care about passing our faith on to the next generation, then we have got to see to it that sin is dealt with. I am not talking about poking our noses where they don't belong, or being harsh with people. But we all know somebody who is having problems of some kind because of either their own sin or someone else's. We can get with them and pray with them. We can study the Scripture with them and try, as a true friend should, to help them see the error of their ways. We can encourage them to turn away from sin, make things right with God and their families and whoever else might be involved.

If they don't want to hear what we have to say, we ought to get the pastor involved. Many pastors, especially those in large churches, are so busy sometimes, that they have no idea what's going on unless someone tells them. But any pastor who refuses to deal with the situation, even with evidence and witnesses, isn't worth his salt.

I don't mean to cause hard feelings, but there are too many hurting people in our churches for me to be silent about this.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), January 05, 2002

Answers

Very well said Cathy. I'll AMEN everything you said.

-- Gloria in MD (mullinaxclan@webtv.net), January 06, 2002.

We have snow and treacherous road conditions here and since my church is on the same country road I live on and it is not a priority road for clearing and salting our church services were cancelled this morning. I decided to check out the forum. I wholeheartedly agree that there is a lot of hypocrisy in the churches but we must remember that the church is made up of humans - we are all sinners. If we are saved, we are saved sinners but sinners none the less. We will never reach perfection on this earth. I do not feel that the average church goer should go around correcting his brother or sister. That should be left up to the church leaders unless someone comes to you asking for help. Rather, I feel we should try to set an example in our own actions. I know this is an often quoted verse but in Matthew 7:1 Jesus said "Judge not, that ye be not judged." We cannot know the reasons someone does something if we are just a casual onlooker and that can play a big part in the picture. I'm not saying we should accept something that is wrong but I don't feel it is the job of the church goer to correct his brothers and sisters. We too have sin and we should check out our own sin first. I also say that if someone in a church is committing a sin and asks for forgiveness, he should be forgiven. I'm sure others will come back with why we should judge but that is my opinion. I also feel if everyone is judging that that is more likely to lead to an abusive church. I use as an example the shunnings of the Amish. As a parent, if your child does something wrong, you love them and correct them. If you are a child and a sibling does something wrong - you tattle tale! Actually, no, you should leave it up to the parents just as I feel correction in the church should be left up to the "parents", i.e. the church leaders.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2002.

I'm home also, still sick with this cough.

The "judge not" verse is so often used that it is sometimes misused. The idea is not that we should NEVER judge, but that we should be careful HOW we judge. If you study the whole passage you will see this. The passage (Matthew 7:1-5) talks about taking care of the sin in our own lives first, and then helping our brother. Verse five talks about being able to see clearly so that we CAN take the "mote" out of a brother's eye.

Other scriptures also talk about "correcting" and "admonishing" one another. Matthew 18:15-17 tells the order of the process: first, go to the offending brother privately, one on one. If he doesn't listen, take one or two others that know about the situation and go to him again. If he still won't listen, then, as a LAST RESORT, take the matter to the whole church. If he still doesn't listen, he is to be counted as an unbeliever. This is not tattle-telling. This is done in love, out of concern for the offending brother's soul. Any time my children come to me about some other child's faults, I always say, "Did you talk to that person first?"

In a letter to church-goers (not specifically elders or pastors), Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15, that if someone does not obey the word he is not to be counted as an enemy, but admonished as a brother.

Of course, we should live as good examples for others to follow. But this "quiet" witness is not always enough. Scripture tells us that we must speak to people about their wayward ways. Not in a judgmental, holier-than-thou manner, but out of love, seeking always to bring the person back on the right path. We are all part of a body. The head cannot wrap itself around a hurting thumb, but the other hand can. We have to function as a whole, and not leave are the "dirty work" to a few individuals.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), January 06, 2002.

I'm home also, still sick with this cough.

The "judge not" verse is so often used that it is sometimes misused. The idea is not that we should NEVER judge, but that we should be careful HOW we judge. If you study the whole passage you will see this. The passage (Matthew 7:1-5) talks about taking care of the sin in our own lives first, and then helping our brother. Verse five talks about being able to see clearly so that we CAN take the "mote" out of a brother's eye.

Other scriptures also talk about "correcting" and "admonishing" one another. Matthew 18:15-17 tells the order of the process: first, go to the offending brother privately, one on one. If he doesn't listen, take one or two others that know about the situation and go to him again. If he still won't listen, then, as a LAST RESORT, take the matter to the whole church. If he still doesn't listen, he is to be counted as an unbeliever. This is not tattle-telling. This is done in love, out of concern for the offending brother's soul. Any time my children come to me about some other child's faults, I always say, "Did you talk to that person first?"

In a letter to church-goers (not specifically elders or pastors), Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15, that if someone does not obey the word he is not to be counted as an enemy, but admonished as a brother.

Of course, we should live as good examples for others to follow. But this "quiet" witness is not always enough. Scripture tells us that we must speak to people about their wayward ways. Not in a judgmental, holier-than-thou manner, but out of love, seeking always to bring the person back on the right path. We are all part of a body. The head cannot wrap itself around a hurting thumb, but the other hand can. We have to function as a whole, and not leave all the "dirty work" to a few individuals.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), January 06, 2002.

It is rather frustrating to find that one has repeated oneself by hitting "submit" too many times!!!

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), January 06, 2002.

I agree that if someone does something to you personally you should speak to that person first. I was thinking more in terms of say someone who was committing adultery and you personally were not involved but were pretty certain it was happening. I don't feel that it is our position to go to that person involved (the sinner) but rather that it should be left up to the church leaders. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the way I see it. How can I an imperfect person myself, judge another? In other words, I need to take care of my own sin first and since I'll never reach perfection on this earth, how can I ever judge others??

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2002.

Barb, I'd be wrestling with whether I'd talk to the affected spouse, never mind the church elders--they're not the ones at risk for disease.

And would I want to know? Yes.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 06, 2002.

I have often wondered if the judge not thing is often part of the problem. Everybody is so busy not judging that nobody just simply says stop this or that is wrong. Some thi8ngs are basically wrong no matter what your beliefs or religion or whatever you call it. Ask Irene.

-- Tom (Calfarm@msn.com), January 06, 2002.

I think our politically correct society has taken a verse or two out of context and twisted it to fit their idea that NO ONE should be able to say that ANY behavior is wrong. I believe the Bible is quite clear that we ARE to judge, or maybe a better word would be to "correct", our brothers. In Corinthians (Chap. 4) Paul talks about not judging, yet in Chap. 5 he talks about expelling the immoral brother. He says God will judge those outside the church, but we are not to associate (even eat with!) the immoral brother but are to expel the wicked from among us. Now how could we be charged with doing that and yet not "judge" anyone? If only those of us who were perfect could judge/correct, then no one in the church would be qualified to do as Paul said.

The main thing is in our attitude and how we do it. Obviously, if you're cheating your customers, or cheating on your spouse, you'd better look to your own behavior before you go judging someone else for doing the same thing. Also, there are clear steps as to how you go about correction, such as going to the person quietly one-on-one FIRST, before you bring others into it. You do it in love, and gently, not from a holier-than-thou finger-pointing position.

And just because you have done wrong in the past, doesn't mean that eliminates you from going to someone and pointing out their error. Repentance and turning away from your sin is what God asks of us. My best friend and I try to hold each other accountable - we each have done things we wish we hadn't, learned from it and wish to help the other avoid walking into the same situation. No finger pointing, just a "Hey, you're headed the wrong direction" kind of talk. I wouldn't consider her a friend if she saw me headed for a hole in the ground and didn't warn me to avoid it. Unconfronted sin, especially in the church, has a way of multiplying.

-- Lenette (kigervixen@webtv.net), January 07, 2002.

I am definitely not a live and let live person, if it feels good do it! I am a VERY conservative, right wing Christian. Yeh, one of those nonpolitically correct people the democrats are getting ready to go after. I don't sit back and not say to myself that it's ok for anyone to do whatever they want such as so many people did about our expres. I call a spade a spade. I just do not feel that it is my responsibility to go to someone and tell them they are making a mistake unless maybe it were a real close friend or they asked for advise. I open my mouth too much anyway without doing that! I'd always be in trouble!

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

Barb, it's okay for you to disagree with what I (and some others) have said about not confronting others. Just do it from Scripture, okay? Show us where in God's word does it say that we should NOT correct our brothers and sisters. I have tried to use Scripture to say that it IS our responsibility. Be a Berean (Acts 17:11) and search the Scriptures to see if what I've said is true. If I am wrong, please give me Scripture which says I am wrong. You see, I do NOT have the right to my own opinion. Everything I say has GOT to line up with God's Word. And if God tells us to admonish and correct our brothers--in love--then it is the responsibility of EVERY Christian who is walking in the light to find out how to do it, and then DO IT. By the way, no hard feelings, okay? I have appreciated having people disagree with me because it forces me to dig deeper into the Scriptures to see if what I say is really true:o)

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), January 07, 2002.

Cathy, no offense taken. I am not trying to argue with you. Actually believe it or not, I'm trying to learn. As far as scripture, I will go back to Matthew 7:1. I know people say that does not go far enough but it's hard to deny what it says. I have heard our pastor say time and time again that we cannot judge others. We do not know what is in their hearts. Isn't your husband a pastor? Do you mind if I ask what demonination you are? I'm Southern Baptist. I really am trying to learn so don't think I'm mad! If I can be convinced you are right, I will agree with you. I think the next time I get a chance to talk to our pastor I will pick his brain on this subject.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

I have been interested in this thread and watching it develop. I don't think that talking with a person about some wrong they may be involved with is necessarily "judging" them. Sometimes it can actually be the kindest thing to do. If you see your child, or a friend heading down an obviously wrong path and you have the ability to communicate with them, and try to show them a better way, it is not only your responsibility to help them, but a way of showing your Christian love for them.

We have been able to do this with many of our friends in the areas of child-rearing and in financial matters. Also with some young friends of ours in matters of morality. Sometimes before a person takes the first wrong step is the time to have a little heart to heart with them.

Sometimes you don't even have to say "you are doing such and such wrong" (which usually doesn't work anyways!!) But you can say "You know I had such and such problem once and this is how I dealt with it, it worked for me and maybe you can use this in your life as well"

I still firmly believe that being overly intense rarely works! I am not talking here about issues such as child or spousal abuse, or things like murder which are obvious, but all of those little gray areas of life that many of us do wrong. Many people can benefit from counsel given with a humble attitude, and it does not have to be judgmental!

-- Melissa (me@home.net), January 07, 2002.

I really do admire you younger women. Some of you are so wise. I wish I had been when I was your age. Please don't take this the wrong way, I sincerely mean it. We will never all agree on everything and everyone interprets the Bible differently but the main thing is we believe in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are trying in our own imperfect way to please Him. I look forward to meeting my Christian sisters and brothers on this forum in heaven someday. I praise the Lord for you, it really does give me hope for our future.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

By the way G.T., I personally had this happen to me in my first marriage many years ago. My husband was committing adultery and one of our best friends knew it but did not tell me. I did not hold it against him and doubt if he had told me that the outcome would have been any different - my husband eventually left me with 4 children for the other woman. On the other hand, had he decided to straighten up and make our marriage work, it may have been harder on me if I knew the truth.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

Barb, I wouldn't have given him a second chance, I would have at least filed for separation (you can be officially separated and still married for years if you want) and probably still given him his walking papers. If remarriage is out of the question, oh well. Better no husband than a bad one. The best friend would have been an ex, too. Better no friends than bad ones. (In the interest of political correctness, I should probably say, better no spouse than a bad one, 'cause it can work both ways).

These days it's not just the possibility of getting someone else pregnant (and all the nice child support bills that would go with it), but you could get a disease that is incurable (there are drug-resistant AIDS strains now). Never mind the religious considerations, think of the practical ones.

And if you don't know the truth about what is wrong (as you alluded to in your response), how can you fix what's wrong?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 07, 2002.

G.T. this happened over 30 years ago, back before Aids. I realize there are other STD's but at the time was much too naive to even think about that. Had my husband asked for forgivness, which he did not, I would have been bound by God's command to forgive him. Instead he left, we eventually were divorced and 4 years later God brought my wonderful husband of 27 years in to my life. All's well that ends well.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

Barb, my husband is the pastor of a Doctrines of Grace, independent Baptist church. We have often had discussions about the "judge not" topic between ourselves and with others. What I have written here represents his views, as well.

I believe it is a dangerous practice to use only one verse or passage to back what we believe. It is too easy to take it out of context, misinterpret it, or twist its meaning. Usually we don't mean to do this, but subconsciously it happens. The Lord says, at the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. That is why I have tried to present my views using other Scriptures than just one.

As to whether or not you can know one's heart: ultimately, you can't. But you CAN get a feel for what's in the heart. Look at their speech (Luke 6:45) and their general lifestyle (Matthew 7:15-20). These are verses where the Lord specifically states how to KNOW a person (not guess, or assume), and how to tell what is in the heart of another. Also, the whole book of 1 John describes what a Christian is and what a Christian isn't. John writes not just so we can know our own hearts, but also to discern if others are truly saved.

As to the example of adultery--I personally know some who are or have been affected by this (don't we all). In most cases, either the guilty party refused to repent or the innocent party refused to forgive. However, we are very close friends with a couple in which the husband was guilty on three seperate occasions. He repented, the wife forgave him, and today their marriage is stronger than ever. They have since had two more children (for a total of four) and are striving to give honour to God with their lives. I have heard of other cases like this, so I know they are not unique. Forgiveness may come out of obligation (God has commanded it) at first, but I believe God honours that obedience to Him by strengthening the bonds of love in the couple's hearts.

One more verse saying that we SHOULD be showing others their errors and helping them overcome them (also states what our attitude should be in doing so): Galatians 6:l.

Again, I encourage you to search the Scripture yourself, to make sure that you are not just going by what your pastor says. Remember the Bereans (Acts 17:11). They did not take the apostles' word for it, but examined the Scriptures themselves to see if what they were saying was really true. The apostles were not offended by this; in fact, they commended the Bereans for it.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), January 07, 2002.

I thought I'd add a true example of confronting out of love and concern, which happened not long ago. A friend of ours works with computers. Among other things, he does troubleshooting for people who are having problems with their computers. He serviced a computer belonging to a godly Christian man, and in doing so pulled up a list of all the man's recent internet history. On that list was a "questionable" site. Our friend wrestled with this in prayer for several days before going to the man and carefully presenting the "evidence". Our friend stated that he was concerned for the man's testimony, that if any other person had seen this (such as an unsaved computer technician), his witness in the community would have been blown. The man thanked him, and proceeded to investigate the matter. He found out that his grown son had accessed that site while on a visit with his parents "out of curiosity". This man was then able to counsel with his son about something he would never have known about without our friend's "interference".

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), January 07, 2002.

Thank you Cathy, your advice is well taken and I will do some more study on this. I might add that I don't always agree with our pastor on everything. I do try to search things out for myself. My most prized Christmas present from my husband (which I had asked for) is a King James Study Bible. I had always used the NIV but wanted to start studying the King James. It has truly been a blessing. I find it interesting that you are Independent Baptist. I have a lot of admiration for the Independent Baptists. Would you mind if I email you privately if I have any questions? Also Cathy, I tried every way possible to save my first marriage. Believe me, I tried. My husband just didn't want to live with me anymore and moved in with the other woman. I gave him plenty of time and tried so hard and have no feeling of guilt about it whatsoever. Getting a divorce was very very agonizing for me. I just thank God for the wonderful husband I have now.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 08, 2002.

Barb, you can email me if you want. And I know what you're saying about your own first marriage. If you read my post under Irene's original thread, the mother I referred to also tried to keep the marriage together. She was a stay at home mom who was considering homeschool when the abuse was discovered. There was no way the husband was going to cooperate. We were there for when she needed a shoulder to cry on, and Tom tried so hard to counsel with the husband (who had been one of his best friends). Nothing worked and divorce was the only way at the time to bring peace to the home. She had to go back to school, living on welfare (which she hated) for over two years before she could get a good job to support the four children. The children's father hasn't been heard from since, has not tried to see the children, has not contributed anything to their support. I understand your pain, and also the joy you now have.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), January 08, 2002.