Sonis thread brought to mind several questions that it didn't seem appropriate to address in her thread.

In spiritual teachings it is necessary to get some grounding in the basics of any given religion. That almost goes without saying.

On the other hand there has to be a point where the rubber hits the road and it becomes necessary to actually apply those teachings in everyday life.

It seems that talk is not enuf for some and they want to serve their fellow human in some "real" way.

It would seem that a church would be a natural forum for this when a group of committed people take up a common cause to make the world a better place to live in yet it seems to seldom happen. How come? Wouldn't you think that the ideal function of a church is to serve the host community in real and tangible ways? similar to those that Annie mentioned?

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), December 30, 2001

Answers

I don't know that they don't! Most churches I have ever seen, are very involved in their communities and out-reach projects of some kind. It is probably mostly dependent on what the members want to do. Often people sit back and wait for someone else to do something. Around here we say if you come up with an idea, just be prepared to be in charge of it! Many people who are members of churches, just do good things without even talking about it. More may be done anonymously than you can imagine...

-- Melissa (me@home.net), December 30, 2001.

Hi John, you know, after I posted that response to Soni, it got me thinking of the different churches, just around here. We have some real big ones in town. I guess they are alright, I know some fine people that go there. BUT, this one in particular is huge, the well known and usually well off families go to this big church, they spent a whole lot of money to build this monsterious size church that could have clothed and fed alot of poor families. Maybe they do some good there, but it is so big, I don't believe you can really get to know everyone. I went as a guest to the big church, and it was a world of difference from the small country one. Elaborate musical productions (I thought I was at a Broadway play and so did the singers!!), television cameras, etc....etc... The whole time I thought, what a waste of money just for people to act so uppity. Oh, what they could do with that money their wastin. And for what? To entertain each other? sheesh. The problem with most churches is when they start believing in themselves and forget why they are suppose to be there. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe at the smaller churches you have more accountability. The people are usually your neighbors and know each other. And around here, if ya don't pitch in and help out and do what is right, you better not show up for Sunday preachin! :)

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), December 30, 2001.

I guess saying that "it seldom seems to happen" depends upon one's own experiences. Over many years I have time and time again seen most churches being quite active in making good things happen within their own communities..large and small churches both. My belief is that the degree to which any church becomes involved in truly "good works" depends vastly upon its' leadership. It makes me sad that apparently in your area John, this must be the exception rather than the rule. I have lived in huge cities as well as rural farmlands and have never seen a self-centered church yet. Something else I need to be thankful for !

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), December 30, 2001.

John, My church (Catholic) does so many good works, that at times it can seem a bit intrusive. If you are handicapped, layed-off from your job, senior citizen, single mom or dad, need someone to talk to, having a bad day?, they are there. Not just in this little community, but also in the surrounding communities,--sharing kitchen, habitat for humanity, domestic violence shelter, nursing homes, hospitals, you name it, they'll do it. Not just here in OH, but across the US and around the world. The nuns at the local convent have an Earth Literacy Center for teaching children and adults ecology and conservation.

Also, the other denominations in the area are just as active. Protestants and Catholics work together in many of these areas. I don't know of any congregation that sits on their duff when there is someone in need. If there exists a church like that, I would run for the door!

-- vicki in NW OH (thga76@aol.com), December 30, 2001.

Thats good to hear folks. I haven't actively participated as a member of a congregation for quite a while and around here see very little evidence of church involvement in the local community except for the occasional bake sale or some other fund raising event.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), December 31, 2001.

I don't think that it is the principal function of the church or a congregation to make the "world" a better place to live." If fact, the emphasis of some (many?) denominations on social justice makes them no different or better than programatic government efforts. Doing good for doing good's sake is a missing of the mark that distracts many from seeking God. The focus is wrong. Doing good is a result of a relationship with God. Our own culture has been and the would inevitibly would be a better place to live if more individuals acted according to Godly nature rather than worldly.

-- charles (cr@dixienet.com), December 31, 2001.

Charles, you say "I don't think that it is the principal function of the church or a congregation to make the "world" a better place to live."

If not that, then what?

You also say "Doing good for doing good's sake is a missing of the mark that distracts many from seeking God." Perhaps it does distract SOME from seeking God but what of those who have found God and desire to serve Him by serving our fellow humans? Are they mistaken?

Are you qualified to judge the hearts and motivations of others who do desire to serve in that way? I'm certainly not, tho I'm equally certain that there are those who will do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

When the spirit moves us to act we should do so IMO. On the other hand if we are "serving" out of "duty" or because we think its expected of us, thats when we miss the mark IMO.

And what of the others who may in fact find God by serving others? There are some that do ya know. They find their "heart song" and KNOW they're right with God in those moments.

The genuine heartfelt desire to serve and to help IMO comes from the promptings of the spirit of compassion and that is not dissimilar to God and is the essence of the teachings of Christ IMO. You also say "Doing good is a result of a relationship with God. Our own culture has been and the would inevitibly would be a better place to live if more individuals acted according to Godly nature rather than worldly."

In general I agree with that, the way I read it, but I go back to what I said earlier. Isn't it possible that when one is moved by a heartfelt desire to help another, by compassion and love, that it is God seeking expression in our lives? Is it not a Godly thing to aspire to alleviate unnecessary suffering? Are we not serving God when we allow that spirit to move us to action?

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), December 31, 2001.

The sole function of the Christian church is to be the Bride of Christ at the return of Jesus Christ.

-- Just Duckie (Duck@spazmail.com), December 31, 2001.

It seems that maybe a little clarification of what a "church" is might be necessary. Biblically speaking, a church is simply when two or mor are gathered in Christ's name. There is no need to "serve mankind" but to serve Christ....serving Christ causes people to who don't like the message of Christ (ie. "I am the way the truth and the life and nobody comes to the Father but through me.") to get a little peeved with the bearers of that message. So the function of the church of Christ is to be the salt and the light of the earth, which is to both heal, season, and sting, and to expose, help to grow, and heal....and also, to be the Bride upon His return. Good deeds and missions of helps are given by the Holy Spirit to different groups, burdens are put on people and oftentimes the Lord draws people with similar burdens together so that they may make an impact in that specific mission field.

Now, if you want to look at churches as social clubs of good works, then we are not talking about the church as it is described biblically. Unfortunately, that us just exactly what a whole lot of churches here in America have become.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), December 31, 2001.

The church is the 'Bride of Christ', the church is the people not the building. The ministers of the church are the Christians. We are to minister to others and live a life so others will want to live that kind of life too, one that will lead other Jesus.

All Christians have spiritual gifts, to different degrees. Some givers, some servers, some teachers, some exhorters, we should follow the leading of the Spirit in using our gifts.

It is not always a good thing to give and give to the masses, and it 's not a good thing to put our treasures in worldly things either. I know a church that will not give to just anyone just because they ask. (except in emergencies/disasters). They are discerning, 'will giving to this person, create a dependency for them? Are they making an effort, are they giving in return or are they just taking because they're too lazy to get for themselves?' This seems right to me.

Giving can become out of balance, it can become prideful and an addiction. You must learn also to take. Yo must let others give to you so you don't cheat others out of their blessing. In all things give thank and see the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Lots of people have been bruised by the church, so in your giving, give gently.

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), December 31, 2001.

good thoughts, the two distinctly different thoughts on the purpose of a church are interesting. but does God not expect us to help those who need it. I think it is up to us to offer the help we can and then let God decide if the person is "deserving." We can't judge someone else. Say for instance someone was drinking and was in a car wreck. would I contribute to help out with this persons bills, or the needs of his family. Sure. I could say that they don't deserve it because they were drinking and it was their own fault. But everyone makes mistakes, and who among us can claim to be "deserving" of god's eternal grace?

-- Melissa (me@home.net), December 31, 2001.

Discerning and being judgmental are two different things. That's why you need to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit in all things.

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), December 31, 2001.