Comparative Religious Practices Question (would like answers from wide variety of outlooks)

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Country Families : One Thread

I have a question for those of any and all religions: I see that many churches, temples, and other houses and styles of worship focus a lot on teaching the word and history of whatever god(s) and prophets they espouse. Many times the sermon (or its corollary) revolves around either the teachings of said illuminaries, or its present day interpretations and the like. While I realize that this is a very important part of religious life, I am interested in knowing if there aresects, religions, belief structures and so on that "specialize" in doing, rather than teaching.

In other words, I would like to find a "church" (please consider that word to mean any organized practice, however loosely organized it may be) wherein I could find myself less preached to about the whys and wherefors (and whatifs), and more inspired and directed to action, both within and without the immediate "church" structure. A system that believes more in action than in "sit down and let me tell you a story" ministry. Now, I know that there are many beliefs and churches, in many senses of the word, that have ministries as part of their overall structure, but I am looking for one where that is the focus, rather than an additional part, of the system. I suppose you could say that I am looking for the "Girl Scouts" of religion. I don't need to hear what I can and can't do to get into heaven or avoid hell, and I already am familiar with the Bible studies from my childhood, and the basic background of many other religions from adult study. To me, without action its all just an ongoing seminar in Biblical History and Its Modern Day Metaphor. Any ideas?

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), December 30, 2001

Answers

Dear Soni, this is going to sound very simple, and you sound very complex,Jesus died on the cross to set us free, works come because we love him. We can do good deeds till the cows come home, and unless we just except what Jesus did on the cross, Dieing for our sins, Its all for nothing.God bless Irene

-- Irene texas (tkorsborn@cs.com), December 30, 2001.

OH boy, I don't really know how to answer this. I know of several religions where teaching others is the main focus of their ministry, but I guess my question for you is, do you want the action to be as part of an organized group, or more like personal actions inside of yourself???

For example the Amish do not actively recruit outside members, but their religion does proscribe a certain amount of changes, because there are so many things you must do to be "Amish". The same with a group called Jehovah's Witnesses. Witnessing to others is a main part of their teaching, in accordance with Jesus teaching to spread the gospel. Mormans have many specific teachings, such as no caffeine, having a certain prepared pantry, researching their heritage. These are just a few things I can think of, but I don't think any of these religions do any of these things without a lot of teaching, preaching, and "storytelling". It all seems to go together.

I don't know if I am on the right track with my answer, I am sure that many others will have lots of helpful advice, and we can add to it as time goes on.

Mine own personal belief is that you use the teaching and preaching to re-fuel yourself, and then you can spread the word, by teaching by example and if others have questions you are prepared to answer and help. I don't really subscribe to an 'in your face' type of style.

If this makes any sense I am amazed.

Please everyone remember to preface your remarks with respect, no sarcasm, mean-natured posts etc...You all know the rules. This should be highly interesting.

-- Melissa (me@home.net), December 30, 2001.


Hi Soni, good question. Maybe a really, really small church, where the church is involved heavily with the community? There are some small country churches around here that are very much into helping the less fortunate, thus putting into action what they have been taught. Even going so far as to volunteering their time to install bathrooms, helping repair old houses, taking food to people less fortunate, visiting people in the hospital or the sick at home, and on and on. I think the members have to take it upon themselves to have that kind of church, because without the involvement of the congragation, the pastor, priest, rabbi or whoever, is speaking to himself. The message is very similar in most religions, it's what the people do with it that counts.

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), December 30, 2001.

I guess I am looking for a "church" that is more like an "activist group for good" in structure rather than a learning center for the religion and its history. While I understand that the knowledge that preaching provides is important to many people, I feel that many churches and their congregations use it in exchange for doing what the religion espouses, as if merely hearing "the word" is in and of itself enough to "go to heaven" or "achieve enlightenment" or whatever the endgame of the aprticular belief is. I feel that if you are doing good, than that is more important than "hearing" good, and that hearing "the word" is sometimes used as a means to avoid living it. However, for all my good intentions, I am a joiner, and have a great deal of trouble getting off my (unfortunately painfully skinny) butt to do anything unless I have folks waiting for me or counting on me. One of those people who need a health club if they're going to work out at all.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), December 30, 2001.

Soni: I was hoping you'd post this here. I'm not a church going kinda person so I'm not sure my answer is even going to be relevant to your question but heres a few thots and a couple of questions.

An aside to Irene: I understand what you say about works not "getting you into heaven" but the Book also sez faith without works is useless. If a person acts out of the SPIRIT of caring, rather than a sense of obligation, duty, or for public approval, thats what counts IMO.

First, I assume you're speaking Christian here. And when you ask about denominations that are more into doing than teaching I wonder "Doing what?" For some the doing IS spreading the word. For others its sponsoring soup kitchens or other group volunteer activities like habitat for humanity, environmental works, adopt a highway, etc.

I've been impressed by the unitarians and universalists. They're not at all doctrinaire in their approach and I suspect what you're most likely to find is a group within each of the churches that are more into volunteer action and not specifically the entire church.

I'm thinking you're gonna have to shop around because I suspect its gonna be church specific rather than denomination specific.

Again, I suggest you post this at www.religioustolerance.org I'll e- mail you another site that does "good works" too. If I did it here I suspect it would start another big hoopla.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), December 30, 2001.



I agree Soni, going to church for an hour on Sunday morning, is not even the beginning. It is what you DO that counts. I think of this myself. It is all well and good to lament the fact that people are hungry and without homes, and clothing etc... (hundreds of problems we could put in there) But it is what you do about it that counts. Hearing about it isn't enough, it is barely anything.

John, we have a strict policy that anything we discuss here is done with respect, so if you wish to post any other sites, feel free. I have been reading at the Religious Tolerance one for an hour now, and it is pretty good.

-- Melissa (me@home.net), December 30, 2001.


With all due respect Melissa I'll refrain from posting the url for the aforementioned site. A long time ago I posted this at the other greenspun site we all frequent and found it seemed to open the door to alot of "Christian" trolls wanting to convert the "heathens" that frequent that forum. I'd prefer to not open that door again.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), December 30, 2001.

Wow. Glad I stopped in here! Ahhh, reminiscence;).

Soni, if you just want to do things to help people there are plenty of secular (irreligious) organizations that do that. There are battered women shelters, alcoholic shelters, half way homes for people trying to get back into "society". Tons and tons of things you can do if you don't want to "listen" to the Word...or any other religious tenets.

However, if you are looking for life application spiritual direction with a focus outward instead of inward, you are going to need to listen to "stories". One thing tho': "Faith comes through hearing, and hearing from the Word of God". Hearing convicts your heart of it's need, if you never hear (have your need for salvation communicated to you) you will never fully recognize the emptiness you have in your soul. It's a God sized hole, and we all are in need of having it filled. Good luck in your quest!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), December 30, 2001.


Soni, I have never heard of any religion which does not teach/sermonize/preach/instruct or provide a history to its' members. Religious organizations are defined as those which have an established set of beliefs which the members feel to be true. If one did not preach/teach/sermonize, etc. those beliefs, then nobody would have any understanding of the basic tenets which attracted the followers in the first place. All religions begin with "we believe", followed by the answer to the obvious first question, "Why?" Traditions, rituals, etc. passed down from generation to generation are part and parcel of religion and need explanation so that the beliefs and practices remain intact. Having attended and inquired of many different religions over the last 53 years, I have noticed that within each, there are particular groups of folks who "do" more than "preach".I have not noted that any one particular religion does this more than another. So, IMHO, if you seek a religion which does not teach on a constant basis, I do not believe you will find one. As someone else already mentioned, there are many secular organizations whose whole purpose is to "do good" simply for the inherent need to assist those in society who have unmet needs.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), December 30, 2001.

What is it anyway that we can really DO for God? Afterall, he is God! Does he want us striving to "help" him? And for that matter how do you do real, meaningful, good for someone else?

I can only think of the first and second most important commandments. If our hearts are right first, all the rest will follow. I doubt that we can accomplish any meaningful good if our hearts are not right. If fact, I wonder if the good is accomplished from our own striving outside from letting Him act through us.

Feels like a call to inaction and, on the other hand I have sensed the need (desire?) to do good in an organized way or at least together with other people (not just individual). I've been in congregations where you pay your dues (tithes, offerings, attendance), sit down and listen to the sermon and then go home to eat. And I have hoped that I could just do something useful. When younger I'd shout to God to give me something to do! He never shouted back. I've told myself that "they also serve who stand and wait". Maybe sometimes I convince myself that I can also serve by lying on the couch and watching TV. As long as I'm waiting I might as well be comfortable.

For certain I haven't figured it out. Sometimes I think the unremarkable things that we do are more important that all the striving to save the world could ever mean. Such as instructing my son. Were'nt the 2 cents of the poor woman more valuable to God than rich man's offerings? And didn't God use dullards, liars, weenies, whiners, etc. for most of his post creation accomplishments. There's hope yet.

Gods' blessings on and peace to all those who strive with these things.

-- charles (cr@dixienet.com), December 31, 2001.



I haven't read all the above responses, so I don't know if womsone has already posted this answer. Soni, the curch is the people, Christians are the ministers in the church and in life. The preacher is also a minister as well as teacher, sermon giver, overseer, etc. We do not need an organized body to minister, but we can be an organized body to minister. Church history, facts, laws, fundamentals are all part and necessary of any church.The best thing to do in any situation of the church, seeking a church, being part of a church body is to pray to the Holy Spirit and as for guidance, you will always get an answer, if you are sincere and it will always be the right answer.

Sounds to me like you're seeking some powerful answers. Reality that only God can give you-that not even 'the church' can give and especially not the world. The world can't satisfy the desire inside of you. Sounds like you have something to give that's wanting out to be given.

'Ask and ye shall receive' sounds to me like some good stuff goin' on. Maybe a call to action. God bless you in your search

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), December 31, 2001.


I too got drawn over here by the question. I also believe that a church should practice what they preach. Help where help is needed.

You've just got to go and visit and ask lots of questions. I think one of the big giveaways is the teenagers in the church. Do they go out and help the community at least some of the time, or are they all caught up in themselves? A church that practices helping others and doing things will have youth that DO it, and love it. The others just say, "OH kids don't care about such things". Well, you can see right there what they are teaching, even the smallest child can feel the blessing of helping in some way.

I cannot stand it when all the youth want to do is stand around and gossip and could care less about anyone else in the church. Or all they care about is how they look. I think it paints a very clear picture of what the church is inside. And the youth are what the younger kids look up too. No matter how hard you teach them, it'll always win, what the bigger kids are doing at church, that's what they will do.

And I think churches who pay for food banks out of their own pocket are examples of caring for the needy. ALL of them around here except one require the folks to pay. What's the offering plate for? A raise for the pastor or feeding hungry folks. Ask about the rules of the food bank. Can they make over 800 a month? That's not much if you have kids to feed. And do they get the cheap dented cans for the needy, or do they buy good food that you or I would want to eat? Ask lots of questions, and you will see a big difference in the giving.

And a clothes closet with GOOD clothes, free for folks who need them. Not everyones rags they are tired of. Giving is real when it's something you would like to have, not something you don't want anymore. And I don't feel comfortable in churches where you have to dress up to go.

Does the church help folks with new clothes and rides to job interviews? And watch the kids while the mom looks for work. I mean real stuff to really help. That's what allot of single moms need help with, not dented cans to feed the kids.

Very good question you asked, and an important one in looking for a church to call home. None are perfect, but some sure come allot closer than others at the real reason they are there.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 31, 2001.


Salvation Army

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), December 31, 2001.

Hello, and Bless you for the spirit of your question. Many people are interested in religion for the aspect of keeping their own "salvation" in check, for power, etc.; I am very happy for your query.

I had a friend when I was younger-- pre-husband --who tried very hard to have me join her church, and I must say that if I weren't such a pagan I would have done so. They were a wonderful group of people who DID preach and discuss history, but they also spent most of their time seriously dedicated to living the way their faith dictated. The name of the church was the International Church of Christ, and even though it has been labeled as a cult on television and they allow that label, it really was just a large group of people who did what the Bible told them to do. And I'll have you know, they took the Word as plainly as it was written, and invited their congregation to interpret it for THEMSELVES. Their wasn't one person standing in front saying,"Here's what it says, but this is what it means..."

This group is very serious about what they do, and they do alot. They help the poor, they feed third world peoples, and they do alot just in their day-to-day life. I've even witnessed one lady handing her lunch bag over to a man on the side of the road. This group gets together constantly, and considers acts to be a requirement.

This group doesn't have a building they own for organized meetings; they usually use another churches space when that church is not there, or meet in a school auditorium for their worship. They feel there money should go to more worthwhile pursuits. If the areas group is still small, they meet in someone's home.

If you have a hard time finding them, they may just find you. They have a habit of befriending people and asking if you'd like to join in on their bible study. The only sad things about this group is that if you do not become baptised and follow the faith, they tend to not have anything to do with you, and they think they are the only ones to be "saved".

I believe religion is just like anything else-- you get out of it only what you put into it. In other words, it is up to you to be motivated to act on what you believe should be done. A "church" is only an organization of people. If you are already a member of a church, why not become more involved and spur other members of your Belief to join in on some of the actions you want to be committing? The most persuasive of people can be speaking to you, but the only thing that is going to make you act on what you hear is for you to put it into action. Your own self-will.

Again, thank you for the spirit of your question. May your journey be blessed!

-- Dawn (olsoncln@ecenet.com), December 31, 2001.


mANY OF YOU HAVE TOUCHED ON ISSUES i HAVE THOUGHT OF FOR YEARS, CINDY, I belive as you do, but will put it slightly different. What is faith? Believing without question in that which you can't see, or hear or feel, but that you know without a doubt is there. then that faith motivates you to do something. You can't no more stop it then you could hold back a tornado!

Cindy in KY, I tell my kids the same thing all the time! When you give something, don't just give the old stuff you don't care about. give what you would like to get.

Here is a little quote that kind of says what I think~

"My friend if you have been sitting in the stands you are badly needed in the field"

-- Melissa (me@home.net), December 31, 2001.



Might try the Red Cross, they will not preach to you and always are looking for helpers. Since you dont seem to be looking for a spritial enlightenment but more of a self worth the Redcross should be able to help.

-- gary (gws@columbus.rr.com), December 31, 2001.

Hello Soni,

Deep inside all of us there is a desire to help. We receive that desire by the way "others" have helped us. Be it, "the church" or other ways. When we reach a certain level in our spiritual growth we want to return the gain that we received to others so that they can also reach a more spiritual development. Everytime a person helps another they usually gain more that the person they help. This is a very, very, excellent way of developing a high tone of spirituality. Most religions do this. When they do it correctly, their church memberships grows. Their tithe increases. The best way to measure a church that is actually achieving their goals of making mankind better, is by observing their growth!

There are literally thousands of "churches" that fit this description. They are not all Christian, but many are. My church focuses on the betterment of each individual so that individual will go out and attempt the same on others in his world. Thus, using a paraphrase quote from the Holy Bible.....you can give a person a fish and feed him for a day or you can teach him to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. If I understand your question correctly you are in the catagory of "teaching a person to fish so that they can eat for a lifetime".

If you believe you can help people in a church that is actually helping people, I suggest that you find one that is growing from the good work that they are doing. A position that you may be well suited for would be counseling. Counseling is not a skilled position as it really just includes that the counseler be a good listener. Many people out there are suffering from the lack of someone to listen to their problems. A lighter heart will make their lives better. Listening to their problems and offering suggestions for relieving their anxiety will go much further with them than just "telling" them they need to change. They need someone to tell them it is all right to feel. They need assurance that they are okay. Your heart seems like it is in the right place to do this kind of work.

I suggest this because in my years of working at my church, I too was a counselor. I seen many people receive a tremendous uplifting just because I spent a few hours listening to them. This is not a confessional type of counseling, just someone helping others to adjust to their problems so that they could free themselves of the constant "nagging" of their inter voices. In many cases these people perferred this type of counseling over psyhoanalysis. An in all cases it was better for them, since it was not done for monetary gain of the counselor.

So, I hope that I have offered you some thoughts on bettering mankind and whether or not you will go this direction, you and I both know that there is a greater need of active people in the churches beyond the pulpit or the soup kitchens.

Sincerely,

Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), December 31, 2001.


If you will read from the book of James,(Jesus' half brother),chapter 1 verses 22 thru 25,it kind of says what you are asking.. 22.Do not merely listen to the word,and so deceive yourselves.Do what It says. 23. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what It says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror, 24. and,after looking at himself,goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom,and continues to do this,not forgetting what he has heard,but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does. And also remember that Gods word says "he",but it applies to all. God bless you in your search,and may you find the answer to your ideas by being able to "help" others in need. Good Luck. Don from Texas

-- Don (twosloans@texoma.net), January 01, 2002.

One of the neatest things we learned in "Knowing and Doing the Will of God" bible study was....don't just think up something you can do for God, go and see where He is allready working, and join Him.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), January 01, 2002.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ