Can we safely us alfalfa field for pasture?

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Hi. Now that it is getting ready to freeze the ground..we were thinking of turning our two cows and one horse out on the two year old alfalfa field. We were going to do this mainly to give them a place to get down out of the wind a little bit. We do not have a barn, nor a shelter for them. But there is sort of a dip in the pasture down there. Would they still nibble the alfalfa...and if they did...would it hurt it or them? Thank you in advance. You are all so good to answer questions on this board. Merry Christmas and a healthy, Happy New Year to you all. Sher

-- Sher in se Iowa (riverdobbers@webtv.net), December 23, 2001

Answers

Sher, forget the dip in the field: those animals need a substantial windbreak (three sides and roof) and they need it NOW before really bad weather hits! If you can't do this, I STRONGLY suggest you board the animals somewhere for the winter. To leave those animals outside with no way to get to shelter cannot be done. You MUST do this or you will have the sheriff in your drivway sometime this winter when someone turns you in for animal abuse. Animals cannot be left in an open field, dip or not, in extreme winter climates.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), December 23, 2001.

Well Jennifer, if we are going to be on the sheriffs list for no barn for two cows and a horse...its gonna be a looooong winter for the sheriffs people around these parts. I am afraid I have to disagree with you. Our animals are ALL fat, sassy and praise to God..they are all healthy. They are animals and God gave em what they needed to endure where they are living. We do not have animals specific to hot or warm year around climate. We have a huge corn crib that breaks the northwest wind for them. We just thought it might be nice to run em on the hay field..just wanted to make sure that if they ingested the alfalfa that it would not hurt any of them. Thanks for your concern on the welfare of our animals. And if you are in our area...please drop by and see them all. I find your answer curious..not feeding/watering animals is one thing. Letting them live like animals is another. respectfully yours...Sher

-- Sher in se Iowa (riverdobbers@webtv.net), December 23, 2001.

I don't know much about cows, since I don't raise them, however, I do know that any livestock, exposed to winter wind without shelter loses weight just due to the action of the wind. Horses that stand out in the winter wet without a chance to dry off very often develop rain rot on their backs as a consequence, and scratches/greasy heel bacterial infections on their lower legs. I see a lot of that in horses kept without shelter. In the wild, mustangs are able to leave unsuitable area, fences keep domestic horses from going looking for better shelter.

How big of an area are you talking about? If the ground is uncovered, the horse at least will keep gnawing on the alfalfa until it is ground level and possibly even pull roots out. Cows can't do that so easily due to their teeth. Do you still have alfalfa standing in the field that is frozen and/or thawed? If so, at least for the horse, that is a recipe for disaster. Colic is a very real possibility, and if the alfalfa has frozen and thawed repeatedly in this strange weather we've had this year, all kinds of nasty little microbes can be developing in it.

Guy I used to know thought he could do the same thing with his horses for the winter -- no shelter and rotting alfalfa. Two out of his seven horses survived, and was he was last seen high tailing it for Colorado with the sheriff on his trail.

-- Barngoddess (nospam@incog.net), December 23, 2001.


Come on people, how do you think cows and horses survived to be with us today? Think they always had warm cozy barns? They are well equipped to survive in the cold. Some large dairies in the NE are even outwintering their cows. Their cows do fine, and the owners claim the cows are healthier, less pneumonia, etc. They do need a little extra food to help generate heat without losing weight. They also provide the cows with some kind of windbreak, manufactured or natural, like the dip in Sher's pasture, because it helps conserve heat.

-- Paula (chipp89@bellsouth.net), December 23, 2001.

Never tried leaving animals out all winter but I know they would graze at the alfalfa which probably won't do them any good and will certainly kill the feild. How did they survive before man? They weren't domesticated animals before man bred them into today's specialized breeds for a start. They migrated to warmer climates, following the food, took shelter in trees and in valleys, weathered the storms in the open when forced to and died by the dozens or more when it got too bad. I know you didn't ask for an opinion about the idea from that point of view; however I hope you'll reconsider not building them at least a simple windbreak.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), December 23, 2001.


Livestock need some shelter from the wind a brushy draw, dip or valley or building, is most likely healthier than a tight steamy dirty barn. I don't know much about horses , but in SE Iowa the cow- calf farmers don't have buildings for their cows ,they shelter in a brushy draw (valley) The sheriff hasn't been to see them!!!!! As to pasturing alfalfa, the old timers never liked to pasture horses on frosty alfalfa or clover. I would not pasture it because of the damage to the plant, they would hurt the crown this late plus the tromping in the mud will hurt your stand next year. If you want a good winter pasture fescue is your best bet.

-- (smhamp@yahoo.com), December 23, 2001.

I do not know much about horses, other than they are fussier than cattle.

Be careful of letting them graze alfalfa _right_ after it freezes. This can bloat the whole lot of them. When it is frozen for a while, as in loses it's color, then it will be safer for the cattle.

The critters will need some protection from the wind, either a wall or some trees. A bit of a roof would be nice. In the wild, they will find this on their own, but with fences you need to provide.

I would be _very_ nervious letting horses graze like this, green alfalfa is tough enough on cattle. Be sure they have plenty of good feed available so they don't bother eating much of the standing alfalfa.

Also, alfalfa does not take much foot traffic, you will probably kill off some of it.

--->Paul

-- paul (ramblerplm@hotmail.com), December 24, 2001.


Sher, letting an animal live like an animal is fine. But you aren't doing that: You have them fenced in an open pasture of which they can't get out. It's great that they have the corn crib for the NW wind, (which you didn't mention before,you said you had no barn or shelter for them) but what happens when the blizzard hits from another direction? No thickets they can get to, no way to get out of the wind. Wind constantly taking away their body heat so they are never comfortable, never warm, which they could be if they had shelter or were allowed to seek it on their own like wild animals can. Why don't you at least build on some temporary wings onto the corn crib so there is more protection for them? Barns are not optional in winter climates. Just because an animal has a coat of fur, does not mean they can take anything the winter throws at them.

If you found my letter curious, you might be interested to know I was shocked by yours, and probably sounded that way. I appologize if you thought I was rude.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), December 24, 2001.


If y'all will read Sher's original post, she said she wanted to put them in the pasture so they could get OUT of the wind. A dip or valley in the pasture can be a great wind break. She's not an idiot or uncaring about her animals - otherwise she wouldn't have worried about the safety of the alfalfa. Some people have such a tendency to anthropomorphise animals, I'm surprised they don't have the cows and horses in the house so they don't get cold. Try to think back beyond the last hundred years. THEY SURVIVED THE ICE AGE.

-- Joe (botaur2@yahoo.com), December 24, 2001.

Sher, can you cut the alfalfa? I read somewhere, think it was SGF, or maybe Hoard's, that cutting the alfalfa residue actually improves the next year's crop.

-- Joe (botaur2@yahoo.com), December 24, 2001.


Sher,

Jennifer L. is correct, at least in NYS, the sheriff can take your stock if you are not providing adequate shelter for them. IMHO, a dip in the land is not adequate shelter--horses and cows may have been wild once, and lived through the Ice Age, but they're domesticated now, and have been for thousands of years, and need shelter from the wind--they are not equiped for it as they once were. A feral horse or cow knows where the best shelter is and can easily move to it, a fenced animal cannot. An animal left out has to use it's energy into just keeping warm, I believe a horse needs 20-25% of its weight in roughage per day just as maintance, you'd have to add a significant amount to that to keep the animal warm and to maintain a constant weight. Access to unfrozen water is essential as well.

I believe in treating animals as animals and the best place is outside unless the weather is severe (very cold, windy, and/or wet), at that time additional shelter is needed especially if the animal has a long winter coat and gets wet-the air insulation provided by a "puffed" up winter coat is gone when the hair is wet and heavy.

I haven't yet turned someone in for lack of shelter but I would if I felt the stock was suffering.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), December 24, 2001.


Well how uninformed can people be, of course one is not born with the knowledge, do you think serious beef producers with thousands of head of cattle and cow calf pairs keep them in a a barn? I have friends in Alberta CN. who have about 300 cows & probably 10 bulls, they also raise Buffalo,(Bison) Horses and Elk. There are no barns. A message from them this morning said that the temp. for the past few days is around zero, which is mild for winter. The cows start dropping calves in April, in the snow.

In the winter I would give my steers a ration of sweet feed in the evening that would heat them through the night but I'm a softy.

-- hendo (redgate@echoweb.neth), December 24, 2001.


Yep Jennifer and Stacy (and others thinking like they are) my husband and I are animal abusers. Thats why peopl around here get off making fun of us for the way we treat our animals. They call them all our kids. Lets see, if a 50ft long, four walled crib, made out of native lumber is not a good enough wind break...hey, then we are abusing our animals. If putting out alfalfa, clover, fescue large bails is not feeding them properly, hey then we are abusers. If having them have access to warm water at their will is not a good thing..hey ..again we are abusers.

How in the world do some of you come up with your statements? You do not even know us or how our ground is laid out..or what kind of shape our animals are in. They have a six acre pasture that they are in plus the lot where the hay and crib are. We thought it would be good for the pasture to give it a rest and that if it would NOT hurt the animals or the hay field..we would give the kids a change of scenery.

I find some of your attitudes offensive. I asked about a hay field and alfalfas affects this time of year on the animals. I did not ask for a lecture from some of you die hards on how I am an animal abuser. I am sitting here thinking of the days when we ran 100head of beef mommas and their babies...wow that would have been some barn/shelter to have kept them in! Never lost a one of them girls. Except in a bog.

We moved here going on three years ago. We have had alot of work to do since there had been no one living here for 13 years. The alfalfa field is two years old and we got two cuttings off of it. Thank you to those who actually answered the question. We will not run them on it because I do not want to kill the pasture off and in no way want to take a chance with the kids.

Hey .. if you guys think that we treat these two cows and horse like crap...just wait til I tell ya what we do to those poor little ole laying hens and three goats that we have. Why..some of you will need hankies and smelling salts!!

Merry Christmas and thank you for the helpful replys.

-- Sher in se Iowa (riverdobbers@webtv.net), December 24, 2001.


Hendo,

I imagine the big beef producers provide windbreaks such as trees, the side of a hill, somewhere that the beefers, horses, etc... can get out of the wind. The shelter does not have to be a barn, or even a run-in but something that breaks the wind on all sides. Don't they? It would be financially advantagous to keep the animal in good weight.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), December 24, 2001.


Good one Sher!! Sounds like you are on the right track. Good luck and Happy Holidays.

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), December 24, 2001.


In the Texas Panhandle there are quite a few feedlots, holding up to a quarter million animals each. There isn't anything between Canada except a few barb wire fences. These animals don't even have a dip to hide in. Abuse is in the eyes of the beholder. This strikes me as kind of a prolife/prochoice debate.

-- paul (primrose@centex.net), December 24, 2001.

Sher,

Where, specifically, did I mention that you had to have a barn to house your stock? ANY windbreak will do as long as it stops the wind on all sides. Nope, I certainly don't know what shape your stock is in all I have to go on is what you wrote in your original post..."We do not have a barn, nor a shelter for them. But there is sort of a dip in the pasture down there." No mention of a corncrib, nothing..just sort of a dip. No one remotely accused you of any type of animal abuse. I'm not lecturing you, you asked for opinions and I gave mine, ie. IMHO (in my humble opinion)

Just how am I a die hard, or just exactly what type of die hard am I? Please elaborate... I do know that my stock will be as fat in the spring as they were in fall coming off grass. I did specifically state the NYS law demands adequate shelter, I didn't say anything about Iowa (or any other state in the Union). I also said nothing about warm water, only unfrozen water...man, are you a bit touchy about this, or what? Having reread my post it's not even directed at you specifically, but simply MY opinion.

For the poster who said it's a prolife/prochoice thing...well, you'd be wrong in my case... I simply feel that the care of animals is very important.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), December 24, 2001.


I just did a quick weather check via www.wunderground.com regarding the weather in Amarillo, TX, and Cedar Rapids, IA. Right now it's 36 degrees in Amarillo, and 14 degrees in Cedar Rapids, in fact, there is an alert for "biting windchills" in Cedar Rapids...the average temp for Jan-March in Cedar Rapids is 0 (or below)to 20 degrees, and it's 20-30 degrees in Amarillo, that's not factoring in the wind chill- this is assuming that I read the charts correctly.

I had thought that the Panhandle was quite warm in the winter (I was wrong- it's not much warmer than where I live) The web is a wonderful thing...isn't it?

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), December 24, 2001.


I hope I didn't offend. Working off the original post I thought the only shelter was a dip in the field, "We were going to do this mainly to give them a place to get down out of the wind a little bit. We do not have a barn, nor a shelter for them. But there is sort of a dip in the pasture down there."
What you've added certainly sounds adequate. I think the replies you got were intended to spare you problems most of us saw. Hard to know a person's background too, we kept 70 head of cattle for 15 years and can't say we never lost one. Though I've lost more sheep in the last nine years; I like to think they at least taught me to do better on the next. Good judgement comes from experience and most of that comes from bad judgement. I've got lots of experience, it's why I post when I can help spare others the loss. Hope you have a Merry Christmas.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), December 24, 2001.

I have to add my 2 cents in here....

IF you are not providing an air conditioned and heated barn with a stall for each animal that could be considered abuse! They need a temp. between 68-72 degrees! Their meals should be served on stainless steel and sterilized after use.

Their stalls should have a window with a view and be cleaned daily. Fresh straw should be at least 18 inches thick!

Now anyone not providing this will be promptly arrested, farm confiscated and charged no less then $100.00 per day per animal until suitable homes can be found for them.

ROFL!!!!! some of you really crack me up!

-- LurkyLu (lurkylu@yahoo.com), December 24, 2001.


Sher, don't sweat the comments. It is that way in some areas unfortunately. I saw that back east when I lived in PA. A local woman was charged with abuse and had her horses taken away because she didn't have the required shelter, and she even had 3 sided lean to for them. Some horse fanatic with climate controlled stalls turned her in. All I could think when it happened was haven't these people seen horses kept in the other 3/4 of the US? What you're doing is fine. Ignore the humanization of livestock, it gets silly. I've seen horses and cattle pastured out all winter in much colder climates than Iowa. Like someone else mentioned, it's much healthier than being cooped up in a barn.

If you have no choice but to pasture them on that alfalfa, expect to lose some of your crop. Alfalfa can't take much wear and tear.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 24, 2001.


Sher one thing you can be sure of is there will be fools at both ends of the argument.

-- Bill Sharpe (Ax@togrind.net), December 24, 2001.

keep good feed for them and they will keep the fat on. When cattle or horses get cold they shiver and that believe it or not helps them warm up. I have a barn for my cows and they choose to stay in the field. I have seen cattle group up to each other to stay warm. jim

-- Jim Raymond (jimr@terraworld.net), December 25, 2001.

I didn't bother to answer since we barn our goats. We live in no freeze East Texas, and there isn't an alfalfa field in site :) Will say that the info on the grazing the alfalfa fields isn't exactly right. I am from California and after they cut the alfalfa, the sheep are let in by the thousands, they go from field to field gleaning all the crops, including the alfalfa. Ironically we just showed this video last night to the kids, new husbands and boyfriends, you know....one of those wonderfully embarassing videos from when they were young and dumb looking! Anyway part of the video was me showing the gals I bought hay with, where it came from, and yes the fields were full of sheep! So slowly introducing your animals to this new pasture should be just fine. It probably will help the fields unless overgrazed.

I also agree with the ones who say put up a shed. I come from competetive genes though, horses and goats. Couldn't ask an animal to live like that in the north, then compete with them or expect them to make money in the milk bucket. But then Dad ran thousands of head of cattle up north in Canada, not a loafing shed in site! And......:) my donkeys never go in their shed!! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 25, 2001.


My vet told me that the next door neighbor would kill her horses if she continued to let them graze on an alfalfa field over the winter. Something about the frost and alfalfa. Check with your local Extension service to be sure. Oh, and for all youse folks out there, look up the definition of "shelter." Websters Encyclopedic Unabridged dictionary defines it as "something beneath, behind or within which a person, animal, or thing is protected from storms, missiles, adverse conditions, etc." (I love the missiles part) A windbreak or corncrib break is fine. NOT actual wooden structures. The local Captain of the sheriff's department apologized to me after they tried to bully me into an actual structure to get my horse into. He was in the front and back yard and had the whole house for windbreak/shelter! Your animals will be fine. Just watch them for chills and check on that alfalfa and frozen thing.

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), December 25, 2001.

All of you get off your damn high horses.No one was accusing you of abuse or neglect.Let me tell you from experience{sorry to say} that all it takes is one idiot and a phone call for the sherif or animal control to be out .In the end of Nov my cattle where still out to pasture .Everything else was in a less than perfect barn .Not air tight , actuallly some missing boards , windows covered in plastic.We where repairing it at that time.Well some goody two shoes called in a complaint .We where threatened with fines and jail time.Ow and these know it alls wanted food and water in front of sheep ,pigs, cows all the time .Dogs where not aloud in crates either {they could stand up and turn around by the way}sheep cows and goats got there hay morning and night same with pigs and grain .That was not good enough .Nothing was thin either.Please check your local laws , I too love my animals .There are idiots every where .

-- nonameplease (silentfor now@hotmail.com), December 25, 2001.

If your barns to tight your apt to have sick animals. My Dad whos 82 grew up working draft horses, they kept one team in the barn and the other two teams outside in northern lower Michigan. The ones in the barn always seemed to get sick and slower to be ready for spring work. Don't remember the reason his Dad kept them that way! Our drafts our stabled at night and turned out during the day, but we only do that because they were raised like that! Alot of people we know do not let their horses in or their cows! Every owner knows their animals, and how easily their kept {common sense}. Our cattle come in and out of the lofting shed, but I'm a bleeding heart when it comes to my own. Our old cow is closely watched, her winter coat comes on slower. Keep an eye on them thats all it takes!!

-- Suzanne (weir@frontiernet.net), December 26, 2001.

Oh, and to answer the original question!! Check out a good book, or talk to your extension agent. There are some weeds that are toxic too, and horses will eat them when there is nothing else to nibble on. {since most horses eat constantly}

-- Suzanne (weir@frontiernet.net), December 26, 2001.

I am sorry to say that alot of states have to much free time and nothing better to do than bug people. All it takes is one animal rights person to come by and you have tons of trouble.For some reason they think animals and people are the same.Look in the archives about hoop houses maybe you could put one of those up cheap.If posssible they will always do better wuth at least a 3 sided shelter.Good luck

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), December 26, 2001.

Getting back to the original question Sher, you will kill the alfalfa if you let them run on the alfalfa field, it cannot take traffic of any kind at all and survive, so you will have to choose one or the other....

My horses are out in a 15 acre pasture, and they only come in out of the weather very occasionally ( they have a full size machine shed to run into if they choose to), at times I have to lock then in to keep them out of the freezing rain, there they stand with icicles forming on them!!!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), December 26, 2001.


Sher, can you electric fence off half the field? Maybe you could minimize the damage to the field that way. A week on one side and then a week on the other side. Or even just leave them on one side. Then if it kills the alfalfa it won't take the whole field... and you should have some grasses still... Just a thought from a frugal homesteader....

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), December 26, 2001.

Dairy cattle are frequently kept outside by graziers. It is called out wintering. Check out the Purdue University Dairy Sciences web site. Our Haflinger ponies have access to a barn but prefer to turn their rear ends to the weather and stand outside. It is not uncoman to see them standing behind the barn with ice hanging from their bellies in the winter.

-- David (daoelker@seidata.com), December 26, 2001.

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