Libertarian Ideals Directed At JOJ : LUSENET : Anarchy Again : One Thread

JOJ, you are a pacifist, right? So what do you think of a Neutral Policy? One where we keep our "Boys In Green" at home? (I know the military has women. Its a figure of speech.) Where we arent the so called "Peace Keeper" doing all sorts of dirty work for the likes of the U.N., the E.U., and Big Buisnesses? The WTC bombings wouldnt have happened if America had kept the Green Boys at home.

How would you like for people who work hard to benifit from their work? Without Government taking most of it away? I got paid this morning. $350.47 was taken out of my check this week. $218.60 Federal WithHold. $15.71 Medicare. $49.00 Miss WithHold. And $67.16 for Social Security. I am single and live on my own. But how about the Single Parents who work out there? Wouldnt that extra 350 help out a lot? Much better than any social program I can think of!

Gas prices were really high over the summer. And the Government gets about a third of what you pay per gallon. That wouldnt be so bad if they were useing it to research new energy sources. And what about all these traffic tickets? I can understand for the kids but who has the right to tell a grown man to wear a seatbelt? MS cops set up road blocks to look for drunk drivers. What about Bank robberies and Murder? Real crime. Speeding and reckless driving should be ticketed. But the cops shouldnt get the money. It should go to the Roadway Upkeep Fund or something.

And how about schools? I think the Government should be involved by setting minimal standards. And keep it loose so teachers dont teach for the test. And Privitize education. Monopolies dont work. Raise both the pay and standards for teachers. Exclude them from any State Sales Tax. And reward quality teachers with even higher pay. And not all students are equal. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I was good at reading and you math. We shouldnt be subjected to the same cookie cutter education. They should infasize our individual talents.

If we work hard and try and get a good education you should reap the rewards of your hard work. If you sleep in class and sit around all day then you shouldnt expect Uncle Sam to pay for you. I dont want you to pay for my stupidity for not finishing HS and going to collage. And I wont pay for others lazyness.

JOJ, what do you think? I kept it all pretty general but you get the main point.

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 19, 2001


The entire "deversity" movement is merely an integral part of the ongoing Leftist assult on individualism. Individualism recognizes a person for their charicter, ability and achieveent. Diversity recognizes a person for their gender, race, sexual preference or ethnicity.

Which would you rather live in?

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 19, 2001.

you had 350$ taken out of your check this week!?!?!?!? how much do you get paid, anyway???? DAVEY=getting 5 bucks an hour lifting heavy boxes

-- Davey Rootbeer (, December 19, 2001.

tator, you've laid out some good questions.

I don't think I qualify as a pacifist. My understanding of the word eliminates me, because I'd use whatever means necessary (well, almost) to defend my family, friends, and my countrymen (assuming they weren't the aggressors)

The rest of your questions will have to wait until I have more time, I'm afraid; I'm about to start preparing my presentation for a meeting we've called tonight about government intervention in our lives. The state legislature passed a law back in 1997; no one in this county that I know of, including our county commissioners, even heard about this law until last July, when a small article appeared in a neighboring town's newspaper.

The Forestry dept is now in the process of writing OARs (Oregon Administrative Rules) for the law's implementation.

Basically, the law provides for up to $100,000 as fine against property owners who don't cut "fire breaks" around their homes, their driveways, and sometimes around their property lines and every two hundred feet across their property.

Cost to me to do the required work: $17,000 for first year, about $4000-5000 per year thereafter. (I have a fairly large amount of property) Cost for an acre of land: $1000 plus first year, a few hundred per year thereafter.

There is no way to know with any degree of certainty that any fire breaks you clear are done to the "standards" of ODF, as the rules are very subjective, and the ODF says they don't have the manpower to do inspections for the 20,000 developed homesites in the county. They will decide if you did the work satisfactorily AFTER a fire occurs!

Bad law! We have three state legislators, at least one representative of the ODF, once commissioner, and expect an overflow crowd (120+ ) at tonight's meeting. I'm one of three sponsors, since I'm chairman of our local valley's citizens advisory committtee.

Obviously, I'm closer to a libertarian on this than some other issues, but even here, I think the arguments the ODF and legislature make for fire protection for homes, and to prevent home fires from diverting ODF's fire crews from fighting forest fires (their main assignment) and costing taxpayers literally millions of dollars extra per year--I think these are valid goals for government. I just don't like the way they are implementing the idea.

More later!

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 19, 2001.

Yea... I like it how tator gets his message out at times, I usually take the piss everybody with conflicting ideals approach. It’s probably due to my lack of understanding why the hell people would rather give, and get thing taken away –by the government. Then get, and have no stupid restrictions form the government. Anyway $350.00 to your self would really help allot more then what the government does. You should see how much they take out of my check every year..."sheee" –its fucken crazy, it leads me to another thing, marriage enforced on to others by the government, hell if your single it cost ya... And if your married it cost ya.... So what the fuck!!! ...anyway =) –smiles to all, later

-- Bob Knob (, December 19, 2001.

"You're damned if ya do, and you're damned if ya don't."

-- Davey Rootbeer (, December 19, 2001.

**Monopolies dont work**

Amen to that! That's why the old Soviet Union collapsed.

But so far, you haven't addressed a fundamental problem with the competitive free market system.

If the free market was left totally on its own, eventually, someone WILL come out on top and then force out the competiton, thus establishing the very monopolies that you say are so bad.

I must agree, our Goverment has laid some real eggs, especially lately, but most of that is due to CORPORATE influence, not ours.

With the Government, at least in theory, we can get into the system and create pressure to get things changed, the same cannot be said with private entities.

I know you have said "Don't buy from them!" before. Well, that's easier said than done. With all of their competition eliminated, there is almost no way to do an effective boycott without reverting to a caveman type lifestyle. Boycotts are only effective when there are ALTERNATIVES. As of now, in many areas, such alternatives are rare to nonexistent.

-- Nexar (, December 19, 2001.

Well said, Nexar! You couldnt affectvely boycott Microsoft. Sure you have Mac and Unics and countless other OSs but there is hardly any compatable software for them.

Davey, I worked 84 hours last week. 36 regualer pay. 48 Time and a Half. Imagian if they would pay me that extra $2 an hour I deserve. I told you about the guy who lost some fingers, didnt I? They got me doing his job now, but for $2.30 less. And with no Company Insurance.

Joe, that law is fucked up! After a fire you loose your home and then Uncle Sam comes in and says that you owe them $100,000! Over Regulation confusses people. And then thats when they fuck you! I hope your "Green Boys" with Ol' Nader has a plan for that.

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 19, 2001.

eigh......eig......EIGHTYFOUR HOURS A WEEK?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? *head explodes*

-- Davey Rootbeer (, December 19, 2001.

Thank God I got a night off tonight! Now I will only put in 72 hours. While you sleep I make sure you have something to read on the shitter. Think of me.

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 20, 2001.

I don't think I qualify as a pacifist. My understanding of the word eliminates me, because I'd use whatever means necessary (well, almost) to defend my family, friends, and my countrymen (assuming they weren't the aggressors)

Jumpoff Joe, that sounds very Libertarian to me. We arent really pacifists. I just used that word because I thought it would appeal to you. Libertarains think that we should remain neutral unless we are attacked. Then we should unleash the full force of our military, without Polititions interfering, so that it will be ended quickly. And Congress must declare War. Not the President. He has no right. Do you think Clinton could have gotten enough support to go to all the wars that he did? Or Bush Sr.? Regan would have had a much better chance. Dumbya would have it if he tried. But that would be putting the entire War Against Terrorism into Congresses hands and not his. Facist Fuck!

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 20, 2001.

Jumpoff Joe, this is my Christmas gift to you! Click on the Bell to let Freedom Ring!

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 20, 2001.

Tator, the following: "Joe, that law is fucked up! After a fire you loose your home and then Uncle Sam comes in and says that you owe them $100,000! Over Regulation confusses people. And then thats when they fuck you! I hope your "Green Boys" with Ol' Nader has a plan for that. " is a pretty aggressive, offensive statement. No comment.

BTW, I happen to have a Mac, love it, and don't know what you're talking about in reference to software.

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 20, 2001.

I didnt mean to offend you. I was just agreeing. Over regulation pisses me off. And I was only inquiering if the Green Party has any objections to Big Government like they do Big Buisness. I hope you can change that law. Or whatever your object is. Why cant they Privitize the Fire Department? Then they would have to find ways to be more productive (put out fires) at a minimal cost. The City should take bids for sevice like the military does for weapons suppliers. F.D. 1 vs F.D 2

And I didnt mean anything bad about Mac. I prefer it. They have had to put out some far superior stuff than Microsoft just to stay in Buisness. But go to the store. Most games and buisness software is made for Windows. Requiers Win. 98 or higher Bill is smart. He hasnt gotten on top by making a better product. He has gotten on top because everything else requiers his product.

Like a patented Screwdriver and the most cars are assembled with it. Lets say it looks like an "S" instead of "-" or "+". You need to fork over the money for the S Screw Driver to work on your vehicle.

Did you go to the link? Libertarian Civil Disobediance!

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 20, 2001.

If it was the Cursing that offended you, I am sorry. But I stand by the rest of what I said. I am going to wash my mouth out with Liquid Soap now...

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 20, 2001.

Nah, Tator, cursing doesn't offend me; it gets boring if used in place of more descriptive adjectives, verbs, nouns, etc.

I was probably being oversensitive. I was offended by the part about "my green boys with Nader". It sounded agressive, is all. Confrontive. big deal, it's ok.

As i've told you before, I think, I flirted around with Libertarianism a long time ago. I still think it has lots of good points. However, the Libertarian party line tends to be overly simplistic, imho.

Sure, there's lots of bad government. Also lots of good government. Who is responsible for most of the highways? Who's responsible for the fact that the air in most big cities is better now than it was when I was a kid? Certainly not big business.

I had a neighbor who tried to eliminate an entire mountain next to one of my rental properties, and about a quarter mile from my house, for a very poorly thought out rock quarry, which would have likely spread asbestos laden serpentine rock everywhere it was spread (the idea was for road rock)

We were able to stop it (my neighborhood group). We were able to do this, because there are laws which the neighbor was violation, and laws which require that certain environmental issues be addressed. He failed to meet/address/ them. It was actually impossible for him to do what he wanted without endangering the citizens of my valley and my county.

Who would have been able to protect us if not the government? Would you suggest that I merely go blow him away, if I didn't like what he was doing, or what?

These are only a couple of examples of how government can be a worthwhile thing. Of course it's not perfect (FAR FROM IT!), but it has it's uses, in my opinion.

It also exceeds its usefulness every day, in many different ways, which is why we need to be vigilant, get involved, stay informed.

What are you doing to keep government under control? I hope you are involved in some sort of politics for positive change!

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 20, 2001.

I agree that PC's have the reputation for being better for business stuff. But I've used mine for my business for a whole lot of years, and it's fine for me. I don't do games, so can't say.

I use a mac because my wife is an artist, and macs are, she says, far superior to PCs for graphics. They are also, in my experience, WAY faster at normal tasks. I get blown away at how slow PCs are, even when they are "supposed to be" faster than my mac. I think they have an extra platform? That's what mama says.

Might be interested to know that, where I live in Orygun, we not only have a private fire department; we have TWO of them! The bad part is that the "better" one came in with the apparent intention of defaming the one which had been here for 50+ years, and taking over. So far, they are both functioning, but the "better" one charges per assessed value, while the older one charges you a flat $75 per year. The "better" one's costs are usually two to many times this much. What's weird is that the older homes are the ones which typically are more fire prone, and more dangerous to enter if there is a fire. Why do you suppose the "better" company charges more for newer houses?

I just hope the older company never fails, as the cost for the "better " company could easily go through the roof, at that time.

I understand that we are one of the only counties in the country which has a private fire company, much less two of the things.

How would you privatize roads? How could a private company even buy the land for the roads? If a private company wanted to build a road up my valley, for instance, I could charge them any amount of money I wanted to, I guess, since I own the stream at the bottom of the valley, and way up the mountain on both sides. Either I, or any of several other neighbors, could make it essentially impossible for a private company to install a road.

The government, on the other hand, has this little trick called "imminent domain".

There are lots of similar situations, which I won't list here.

How about we just strive for less, and better, government, while acknowledging that there are some things that government can do better than private industry. \ I'd also be interested in asking you which countries have the bestr educated citizenry, and the best developed infrastructure? I believe, tho I can't cite any hard data, that it's the ones with mandatory education (this means public).

I've been to quite a few countries around this hemisphere, and this seems to me to hold true. Am I right, or am I wrong?

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 20, 2001.

I am not a slave to the Libertarian Party. I dont believe in privite roads. And I think that Taxes should be 7.5% of earnings for everyone. Including buisnesses. That was we can have a strong military and pay our Federal Employees. But there would be only about 10% of what we have now. Excluding Elected and Appointed officials. I believe that we should have a minimum wage. I dont believe in Employment Quotas but I believe that the government should make sure that minorites are treated just. I believe that the government should set minimal standards for many things. Including Education and the Enviroment. But leave so play room for the individual states. Miss. cant and wont be as strict as Cal.

I am not a Slave. I will sway from them. Political Scientists used to think that you were on a line. Left and Right and anything inbetween. But now they all agree that it is a plain. Liberal, Conservitive, Libertarian, Authoritarian. Given the choises I have chosen what I beieve to be the best.

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 21, 2001.

The best Government ever was Hong Kong under British rule. The British ignored it. They were to loose it anyway.

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 21, 2001.

I know nothing about how good the British govt in Hong Kong was.

otherwise it sounds like we're in agreement, for once. As far as roads go, gas taxes pay for roads. Unfortunately, at least where I live, the cost of maintaining roads is mostly to pay for a whole crew of guys standing around doing nothing, or maybe watching one guy futz around with a shovel.

I saw where our local county govt was going to build this little bridge over a little creek. Never mind that it went to six private residences, and was not a county road.

They estimated it would cost $90,000 to build this bridge, including $12,000 for engineering. Bridge six feet above channel bottom, sixty feet in length. I never heard what the final cost was, but assume there were the normal "cost overruns".

Meanwhile I built a bridge over a much larger creek (Jumpoff Joe Creek) (named after me, or was it vice versa?)

My bridge is also sixty feet long, but it is twelve feet above the channel bottom, which means the supports cost WAY more to build.


When I say I built it, I mean I contracted it out. I did not physical work, but hired a construction company to form it up, set the steel, and pout the concrete. I also got an engineer stamp the design.

Why can't the county (state, federal, municipal, etc.) do the road work for a reasonable cost? I don't know. One thing I do know is that they seem to have no concern about money.

I once needed a whole bunch of fill dirt. I called the county Public Works departmetn, and asked them if they could put a note on their bulletin board, or on their key board, and let their dump truck drivers know that I needed it, as they are always needing places to dump fill dirt. Oh, no; they couldn't be bothered with the administrative nightmare, as they called it, to be bothered with trying to figure out who wanted fill dirt.

So, a week or two later, I saw the county mounties "pulling ditches", and filling up dump trucks. Less than a quarter mile from where I needed the dirt.

I asked the drivers if they'd mind dumping it off the edge of the road where I needed it. They were happy to, and delivered me about twenty dumptruck loads.

I asked them where they were taking the dirt before I diverted them to my job. "Oh, to the Kerby Dump", they told me, without blinking an eye. That dump was forty miles away! Duh.

Gotta go.

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 21, 2001.

In Corinth the MS Government told us we could have 1 million dollars to do with as we please. It just had to inhance the Historical significance of Corinth. What did they do? They are building a trail from Corinth to Shiloe.

The Corinth part is finished. Get this. They put it a good 5 miles from Historic Corinth. That area is really new. Infact the road it is built along was built in the late 80s. It is about 6 ft wide on either side. The road is always conjested because it is a 2 Lane. We all thought they were adding a turning lane.

For 1 million dollars we get 5 year olds riding bikes up against a heaveyly traveled and conjested road. And one that is very hilly and curvey too! Someone is going to get killed on that road. If you ever drove it you would see what I mean.

The best thing to do about Government spending is to cut off there money supply.

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 21, 2001.

Back to disagreeing! Don't just focus on cutting off their money supply; get invovled. Make them spend it wisely. That's what I'm doing; I am happy to report that the meeting I cosponsored Wednesday night was a smashing success! We had an attendance of 115 people (all voting age). Not bad for a tiny community, ten miles outside of a small community, I think.

A state representative and a state senator attended; I moderated the section of the meeting where we asked questions/made comments to them and the Dept of Forestry rep.

All three of them have been working hard to accomodate our concerns. In fact, the dept of forestry type handed out their revised set of OARs (Oregon Revised Statutes), and they have made almost every change in the law's implementation that I've asked for. Now, if they can get these changes approved by the State Board of Forestry, that will be very good.

The two legislators have promised to do their best to make some legislative changes to the bill, as soon as they go back in session, and I believe they truly will.

Qwitcherbitchin, and start doing something about it!

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 21, 2001.

You are doing a great job out there in Orygunland! But how can I prevent Uncle Sam from buying a $30 bottle of Asprin with Medicare Money? If they had to work with a small budget like most Americans then they compaire prices, like most Americans.

-- Tator (you@cant.resist), December 21, 2001.

Sorry if this sounds trite, but think globally and act locally.

Notice I didn't take on Uncle Sam.

To paraphrase: "I dunno" Grassroots may or may not work. It worked for the Viet Nam War, but only after a few million gringos and a few times that many Vietnamese had died, and millions took to the street in protest.

Unfortunately, there are so many things to work on, and not enough time, so the cost of aspirin (toilet seats, nails, hammers, etc) generally don't get a mass movement of anger and outrage rolling.

Locally, people seem better able to see how it's going to affect them personally and directly. That's why it's easier to start a movement locally.

Sorry about the aspirin

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 23, 2001.

While the government can and often DOES stick it's nose in where it doesn't belong, there are certain things that simply cannot, because of the potential for abuse, be left in the hands of private entities.

A major difference in Big Government as opposed to Big Business, is that in the case of the former, WE, at least in theory, have a say in what Big Government decides, whereas in the case of Big Business, we do not. (Yes, we can create pressure economically by not buying our product, but in the end, how those businesses respond to that pressure lies in the hands of the executives and the major stock- holders).

According to the Constitution, WE ARE the Government. The reason we elect officials is that the vast majority of us don't really have time to spend on debating and political wrangling, so we entrust those tasks to certain people while we go on with our daily lives. (besides, trying to get millions of people scattered across a vast and far-flung continent together to make decisions can be grossly inefficient and very messy indeed). It is also our responsibility to hold our officials accountable should they betray the public trust (including taking up arms against them if all other efforts fail).

However, we, as Americans, haven't been paying very good attention to what our officials have been up to. When is the last time you have read a Congressional Bill? No, not read or heard a description of it, be it the Media or other sources, but actually READ it? I know I haven't, and I seriously doubt you have too, Tator.

Like JOJ says, we need to get involved and exercise our power while we still have it. When you pawn that responsibilty off on somebody else, you're basically handing your power over to that individual or entity, thus placing yourself at their mercy. God help you should they be lacking in that department....(mercy, that is).

Back to Big Business. I simply cannot entrust some issues to them, because their priorties are simply wrong. Interests in the Bottom Line and interests in the Common Good can and often DO conflict. I wonder how many worthwhile projects, products, and inventions are actually shelved simply because they cannot turn a profit IN THE SHORT TERM? Many corporations tend to think of their interests NOW, not in the long term. They tend to focus on making immediate profits, without giving any thought to the long-term consequences.

Prime Example: The 1929 Stock Market crash. There were actually many warning signs of the impending crash a few years previous, but most of the investors (and almost ALL of the economists) ignored the warnings in their frenzied pursuit of ever greater profits. Only when all of the chickens came home to roost on Black Tuesday did they realize their folly (some did not even then!).

Also, look at how the Stock Market behaves in reaction to world events. I get the impression that they seem to behave more like panicky sheep or cattle than rational human beings. I mean, Mr. Greenspan (NOT Greenspun, LOL) can simply poke his head out the window and holler BOO! and send the markets into a tizzy. Do you REALLY want an entity like THAT making your decisions for you?

-- Nexar (, December 23, 2001.

Good post, Nexar. I can tell you that it's pretty hard to keep up with ALL the bills; in Oregon, where we have a part time legislature, the legislators can't even read all the bills, as there are about 4000 during each legislative session! Of these, about 1000 are actually passed and signed into law (at least that's the number I remember from Senator Bill Fisher's and my converstaion last Wed night.

Most of these bills are quite long and complex. This also is only state laws; there are county, city, and federal laws to consider, as well. And lately, there is a totally new layer of government such as the Comumbia River Gorge Council (or something like that), the Rogue Valley Council of Governments, and various interstate pacts.

I don't know how anyone could possibly keep up with all this stuff, other than the legislators should, ideally, have a trustworthy staff to read the stuff and give them a synopsis.

Did I mention that I was asked to join the county commissioners to work on the bill I mentioned? This is one way the commissioners get things predigested for them: by letting people they trust do the legwork, and then hopefully being able to make wise decisions.

Nexar, you mention that we Americans haven't been paying good enough attention to what our reps have been doing. I agree, but really don't know how to do that. I have pretty much given up even writing my US senators and Reps, as they virtually always respond to my letters with a reply like "thank you for writing. Senator xxx does not have time or staff to read every individual letter, but he does read a portion of them, and thus your opinion DOES count." Or something similar to that. (at best; lots of times I get on response at all. I once wrote Ronny Rerun about something or other, and got a little card in the mail. It looked kind of like a wedding invitation. It said, basically, "Thank you for being a good little citizen and taking an interest in the affairs of government." To me it meant, "We don't give a shit what you have to say, but it's politically wise to at least acknowledge that you took the time to write".

What do you do, Nexar? Are you having any success with influencing national issues?

I wish we had a national Initiative process. It works well in Orygun, for the most part. At least the state government can't ignore an initiative placed on the ballot by the people, and voted on by the people.

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 23, 2001.

Doesn't seem like it, Joe. Anyway, the info is out there, it's just that people will have to do some digging to get to it, digging that most people simply do not have time for. Simply writing your Congressperson doesn't really get you anywhere, as they will simply give a response on the order of "That's nice dear, now run along and play...". According to theory, those Bills are public domain, and should be availible for viewing if someone requests it.

Problem is, tangling with the bureacracy in order to get a chance to view it is often ardous and time-consuming. Even when access to a legal document is granted, the language is so strung-out, twisty, and convoluted that trying to decipher them will fry most people's brains. (My above-average vocabulary helps, but still....)

Isn't it sad that our legal codes are so ponderous, twisted, and complex that we have to hire people that have studied them THEIR ENTIRE LIVES just to make effective use of them?

I have only recently been roused, and as such, haven't really participated in political activities as of yet. The problem is, where do I begin? The Powers That Be are already so entrenched in our political and economic infrastructure that it is hard to tell where to begin, even on a local level. Yes, I am not happy with the present system, but neither am I inclined to waste energy by beating my head against a concrete wall, figuratively speaking.

-- Nexar (, December 23, 2001.

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