Here's a naughty question: Do you have a spouse? Is being obsessed with Leica and things mechanical purely a male thing, or do women like Leica too? Does your spouse ever say you are spending far too long on the Internet, and ask: "How much can you say about these cameras anyway?"; or, "You are just too obsessed with photography?" Anyway, my wife Alex, long an admirer of things new, says: now my Leica minilux has "been luxed", it is fully acceptable for me to go after "retro models", or "eccentric cameras"? (She's even quite keen on a sports car - MX5/Miata). Can I hold her to ransom to this in future arguments to justify purchases? PS: She has seen me write all this except the sports car part.

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), December 14, 2001

Answers

Here's an honest answer. I have a spouse. I (myself) think that (at least) my wife thinks that being obsessed with a Leica M is purely a male thing. She likes Nikon, because there, the camera does everything. She only has to know where the thing is (like the bag). My wife always says I spend too much time here in the net, or at the store, or out on my bike. Those things have become synonymous with Leica. I think she's just jealous. But I know -- again, that she knows -- that my loved one alongside her is a just a little infidelity. Expensive, but without diseases.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), December 14, 2001.

there are not too many women on this forum. there is one Julia (Hello Julia!). obsession with material things occur in men and women, though usually not the same objectives. my girlfriend totally supports my craze, though she gets annoyed after the 20th picture i take of her in one hour. when i first got my m6, she said it was very ugly, but i think she changed her mind a bit.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

My girlfriend also said that it sometimes drives her crazy, but looking at the pictures afterwards is quite a reward for what she has to endure. Recently I was even blamed for not taking pictures.
BTW: Like Stefans girlfriend she also thinks that my (old) Leica M2 is quite strange - she prefers the 'professional' SLR - look (my RTS + winder) or the small things in life (her Leica Mini), but once she had the M2 in her hand the discussion was almost over - if the M2 only were a black one ;-).

Kai

-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), December 14, 2001.

My fiancee Princess Sarah is a fairly good "Leica" photographer. I told her how to use my Leica R4 to shoot some pictures of me and she shot some rather good ones which are displayed at www.leica- gallery.net. I think that females enjoy Leica if you take the time patiently to teach them the basics. In fact, Sarah's eyesight is much better than mine so basically she was able to shoot faster than me until I replaced my split focusing screen just last weekend.

Leica-fully, Alfie

-- Alfie Wang (albert.wang@ibx.com), December 14, 2001.

Maybe women USE Leicas while men sit around on Web lists obsessing over them. Just off the top of my head I can think of the following Leica- using women: Helen Levitt, Sylvia Plachy, Maggie Steber, Mary Ellen Mark, Abigail Heyman. I suspect that none of them would be terribly interested in entering a long discussion of the merits of black paint over black chrome or zinc rather than brass. They make pictures.

Alfie Wang wrote: "I think that females enjoy Leica if you take the time patiently to teach them the basics."

I think that this is an ugly, condescending, sexist remark.

-- Robert Schneider (rolopix@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

You may perceive my comment as being sexist but it is not. Someone had to teach those artists how to use their Leicas--whether it be a teacher. To be honest, I'm very worried about the lack of female presence here on the board.

So before you go about posting accusations, go check yourself. One doesn't want another Puff Daddy of Leica-worship running around here undoubtably.

Redoubtably, Alfie

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

Alfie wrote: "You may perceive my comment as being sexist but it is not." Obviously I disagree. Manual 35mm cameras are basically simple tools but they all work essentially the same way. There is nothing unique or special about the basic functions of a "modern" (M3 or later) M camera and nothing unique at all about the basic functions of SL or R cameras including the R8. What of focusing, aperture, shutter speed, metering, or shutter button pressing must be more painstakingly taught to women than to men? Leicas work the same way, with the controls in basically the same positions, as Pentax K1000's, Nikon FM-10's and Nikon FM2's. High school girls (and boys) in photo classes use manual 35mm cameras such as these every day. Do you honestly believe that their teachers had to use undo patience to teach the girls the basics while all the guys picked it up in a heartbeat? If someone wrote, "I think that Alfie Wang will enjoy Leica if you take the time patiently to teach him the basics," wouldn't you find that patronizing? It's a fact, Alfie. Even a girl can learn how to take a picture with a manual 35mm camera by reading the instructions.

-- Robert Schneider (rolopix@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

I think that this is an ugly, condescending, sexist remark.

I agree. And he calls Sarah "Princess"; and in another post he equates the diety with a "Heavenly Father." Three strikes is out in my ball game.

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), December 14, 2001.

Chantel (my wife) has an art degree and works in an art gallery, and does most of her 'picture making' with acrylics. When she wants to take photos she uses either her Konica Big Mini (for snaps) or her Braun Paxette (1950 fixed lens rangefinder) for B&W. The closest she gets to the Leicas are when she poses for them (she also models for a number of painters as well as myself). She doesn't mind my Leica expenses (though I only buy what I'm going to make use of), though sometimes I feel a little guilty when, for example, I've just spent $1500.00 on a lens and she mentions that she needs to buy some new pencils....

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

I have a spouse. She knows I love photography, and does not bother me too much about the expensive gear I own and use. As for her, I bought her an auto-everything Nikon 6006 (because it had a built-in flash) + 28-105 AF zoom a few years back. I had to teach her how to use it. She used it for about two weeks. Then I noticed she was back to using her little Olympus Stylus... So, being the loving husband, I offered her more instruction on the 6006. "Too complicated and too big," she said, "I want something I can carry in my purse and that is always ready to go when I push the little button..." She still uses the P&S even when I offer her an F100, etc. She'd *never* spend the time learning how to use a Leica M, or any other mechanical camera for that matter. She cares only about simplicity and simple results. She makes pictures, and the equipment used means little to her.

As for being sexist: She has no interest in learning the mechanics of photography. I did, and still do. Is that a sexist remark? I think not. I think that is a difference between men and women when it comes to things mechanical. For example, I am very mechanically inclined -- I can take an engine apart and put it back together, and it will work -- Without instructions. But, ask me to thread my wife’s sewing machine, and I'm a fish out of water. I call her when I need the thread color changed for a simple repair. She whips the new thread into the bobbin and onto the machine faster than I can load my M. Fat lot of good my mechanical skills do me here. I can't even fathom how the darn sewing does what it does; seems impossible if you apply logic to it! But, all my wife cares about is that it sews, not how it does it. As a man, I need to understand how it works. As a woman she only cares that it works. And I think this explains why they are imminently more pragmatic than men in most things ;-)

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 14, 2001.

well Bob; when we come to talk about Leica cost and it´s effect on owr wives; (I´m divorced, since almost a year) it is always a delicated topic, unless youre a millionare.

On the other side, seeing women as leica users, I don´t think we can be condecendent here; they are such a Leica users, specialy for having smaller hands (usualy), I once had a portafolio review by Mary Ellen Mark, and talking to her about the equipment I use, I took my M3 out of my waist bag to show her, she hold it with her large(prety large actualy) hands with such easiness and confidence, at 60 she had been holding leicas for more than 40 years, and Robert we can mention Susan Meiselas, Inge Morat, Martine Frank, Mariana Yampolsky I belive uses leica too, well I´m a great admirer of women in photography, leica or non leica users. And I´m sure you sare this point of view friends.

And Peter, don´t take it personal, but if we are playing some ball game, I declare my self incompetent.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

My wife has been a pro snapper for twenty years. Uses Nikon gear and has at least three times as much equipment as I do. Her skills are far superior to my own, although her work is very different (lots of tabletop, food, stock of various kinds as well as social doc).

It can be difficult when both partners are photographers, but not for equipment related reasons. More a matter of scheduling travel around child care requirements, avoiding any kind of competition between us, and so on. But it's nice that we have a common interest/passion and can discuss many of the issues that documentary photography (our common ideal) throws up.

As for Leicas, that's just a personal preference of mine, as they're the only cameras I can be sure to focus accurately most of the time. My wife is not at all interested in them, every so often she'll take a couple of snaps with them and then hand them back with a curse as all the controls work the opposite way from a nikon. Similarly, I have no interest in her Nikon gear, although I can see the 17-35 zoom is a mighty tool. So we're both happy.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 14, 2001.

Oh yes: as for God, I would have thought a figment has no gender?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 14, 2001.

I would disagree politely with you Peter about the diety aspect. Heavenly Father is the term which is utilized the Church. I think that it is appropriate to be honest. And if three strikes=out, I wouldn't be here on this planet.

To keep on subject, I don't mind teaching Princess Sarah how to use a manual camera. She is going to be very happy with a Nikon FM camera for Xmas and to be honest, if her photography is better than mine so be it :)... Of course, I don't mind being an artistic recordkeeper using Leicas at all. It's something which is a shamanistic feel to it, just to capture the fleeting moments of life with some "falsifying" compositional aspect which can't be more than ineffable.

If you don't like my spouting at all, perhaps it's time that I sent you to read some Nietzsche? Beyond Good and Evil is a most fabulous book regardless and definitely a lot of wonderful philosophical craziness. I like him slick like dat!

peace out, Alfie

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

It's something which is a shamanistic feel to it, just to capture the fleeting moments of life with some "falsifying" compositional aspect which can't be more than ineffable.

If you don't like my spouting at all, perhaps it's time that I sent you to read some Nietzsche?

Time to take out the shovel. Boy, the B.S. is piling high today...

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

ALfie - in Christian theology 'Heavenly Father' may be correct. But: a) Christianity accounts for less that 25% of the worlds population and b) in many religions there is a duality male/female of deities. This isn't the place to convert anyone to ones beliefs...but damn, it is an interesting forum at times.......

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

I've known many men and women both who are wonderful photographers and use all kinds of gear, will talk gear until they're blue in the face. Demographics of internet usage show a much greater participation by males in BBS and mailling list participation, that's all.

My boyfriend could care less about photography, cameras and other things that I own. He'd rather I spent the time concentrating on him. And I'm the one with the sports cars and motorcycles ...

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), December 14, 2001.

r watson- Mary Ellen Mark has "Man Hands"?

A woman I know who works at a photo store in town did comment once on a R4s they had in stock as being "Sexy", but she is a photog and I guess would be entitled to make such comments. And my wife could care less about what camera I use, as long as something worth while comes out of it. She has inquired about learning to use them because she is tired of her PnS giving her unpredictable results.

-- Dave Doyle (soilsouth@home.com), December 14, 2001.

Hey Alfie, cam we teach girls to read Nietzche? Maybe if we're patient and go verrrrrry slow? (Better choose your words more carefully next time.)

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

In my opinion, the Leica M6 is basically a camera made for women. Simple, logical, reliable, discreet, shamefully expensive, like good jewellery. As for someone having the patience - for which read "someone" a man - to teach me, excuse me, please, but being an auto-didact - oh, sorry, is that word too complicated for those who think that Deity is spelled Diety? - as I was saying, being an auto- didact, it was a snap. A close friend of mine, when I showed it to her, was equally taken with its beauty and simplicity, and understood perfectly why I would go to the sacrifices I have gone to in order to obtain it.

Yes, I use it. No, I don't know all the technical details of the working of a camera. However, I know and incorporate those that I need to know, and as I perceive a need for other information, I will obtain it, either from reading about it, (see above, "auto-didact') or in the exchange of information with others. Who is jeaulous? My husband.

I respect and admire the choice of other women, for whatever photographic equipment they chose. Don't kid yourselves, boys, if a woman, ANY woman, decides she wants an M6, she does not, I repeat NOT, need an XY to show her how to use it. And she will use it in her own way, at her own pace, and in her own sweet time. Some of you know this already, others are going to find out, eventually.

p.s. David, among my girlfriends, the Miata is considered to be a ladies sports car. My regards to your wife.

-- Margaret (fitz@neptune.fr), December 14, 2001.

My wife is an author and artist and she really does a hell of a lot of work while I buy new lenses,cameras etc. She does thoughhave a hankering for the diminutive Rollie 35s that sits around a lot.But I think there is basically no difference between us ...I dig cameras and enlargers 35mm to 12x20 and use them and she likes the digital world and uses the creativity that is abundant there.For her it's computers and software and collectables and for me its photo,music,etc. But we USE our stuff and don't obsess about it.Some of my best photos thoughhave come out of an M3 or an M6. Yet I still get a charge with the Medium or larger format cameras. To sum this up I think after 16 years we can read each others minds and respect each others similarities and differences. Also it's a fact that men only exceed women in the muscle test....women beat men in everything else...intellegence,reaction time,pain threshold...the list goes on!

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 14, 2001.

My experiences re women and Leicas back up what Margaret has said. Most male photographers look at my Leicas as an interesting curiosity, but they aren't sure why I'd spend so much on a camera that does so little. Female photographers, on the other hand, want to try it out and want one of their own. Even female non-photographers fully appreciate its aesthetic qualities.

And, yes, a Miata is a girly car. A '67 Goat is manly car. ; )

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 14, 2001.

Margaret:

Just to clarify... The word "autodidact" is a word unto itself, and therefore needs no hyphenation unless you need to break it up at the end of a line per the rules of proper syllabification. Unfortunately, when you hyphenate same, you change its meaning... So, "autodidact" which means self-taught, is changed when written as "auto-didact" to mean one who is automatically over-inclined to teach others!

;-) Cheers,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 14, 2001.

Hey Marge - sorry for the misspelling of diety - all I can say is I'm glad I'm not married to a bitter crotch like yourself - any spelling errors here.........

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

I wouldn´t say so Dave; MEM has big hands indeed, but not man´s hands, they are long and strong but thin, not like man´s; she´s emotionaly magnetic, a woman with a big aura.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

Uh, Bob, you didn't misspell deity; Margaret wasn't addressing you.

The vicious and personal nature of your response should go a long way toward making sure we don't have to deal with any women daring to say anything around here . . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 14, 2001.

I had an Autodidact once. Couldn't teach myself to use it though; too complicated. Had to keep asking my wife for help. So I traded it in for an M6. Looks good, too, since I put the electrical tape on it. Cheers, Dennis

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

To Maregret, Mike and all....I apologize (and mean it), if in fact Margret was not addressing my earlier post. however I did lose my proverbial 'cool' because most of the post I have seen from Margret have been faily vitriolic in content. She does not often post just to 'talk' Leica. That said, it still does not condone my response.....

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

Margaret, Last person I saw with an M6 in their hands was a woman! And Mike didn't you know Satan drives a Pontiac...

-- Dave Doyle (soilsouth@home.com), December 14, 2001.

Margaret is so right! The M6 is such a fem machine so Solms is making all these lenses bigger to compensate. Suddenly I feel so inadequate.......now who uses a manly M5?

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), December 14, 2001.

Alfie,

In the midst of your politeness towards Peter Hughes you say, “it's time that I sent you to read some Nietzsche.” Where you gonna send him, Alfie? To his room? I have seen a photo of Peter. I should enjoy seeing you “send” Peter anywhere. In fact, I would like to photograph the maneuver. I have a Leica. I will pay my own expenses. Let me know when & where?

Recently Alfie you made the uncharacteristically useful suggestion that those of us who don’t want to read your posts can always ignore them. I know good advice when I hear it, so I did exactly that. For days I skipped over every single Alfie post, watching the numbers of poor innocents pile up in the “most recent” lists, like drivers in a foggy chain-reaction accident. “There but for the grace of a Big- Manly-Bearded-Dick-Swinging-Deity go I”, I thought.

Not only that, there was a distinct liberation to skipping your posts. I knew no matter what I did next, wash the driveway, re-do my 1991 taxes, carry water in buckets from the shallow- to the deep-end of pool, inhale asbestos, anything at all, I could be certain it was more gratifying and useful than the alternative. It’s rare when one can be so confident in the disbursement of time. I thank you for that, most politely without a doubt.

But now there’s trouble. I would not write if I had an alternative. It seems at this banquet of a forum, where many cook and all eat equally, you are not content to merely offer up savory platters of buffalo chips and cow pies, you scurry from setting to setting and dish your stuff out on everyone’s plate, even before we have a chance to sit down. I could stand to taste the other foods without your famous road-apple-sauce.

You always seem to know what’s best Alfie. What should I do?

Peace on you too, as always,

-- Jeff Stuart (jstuart1@tampabay.rr.com), December 14, 2001.

Well, what a fine disgorgement of ephemera we have here and no mistake! Everything from fine art to "shamanistic, ineffable", Nietzsche, sewing machines, and "Satan drives a Pontiac!" We seem to be veering to the metaphysical. Re Nietzshe, I spotted a slogan on a T-shirt: "God is dead - Nietzsche". Underneath: "Nietzsche is dead - God". So what camera would God use for snapping His/Her Creation? How patient would Adam have been teaching Eve to use a Leica? Like a lot of women mentioned here, my wife, who is knowledgable on art, is more keen on results than equipment and like your wife Jack, enjoys a tiny P/S, in her case a Leica mini 3 which has produced some damn good pictures. She likes the pix from the M but finds it fiddly. Margaret: glad you like the M. And my wife definitely would like to get a Miata. Girly! Why? Too small? It has great handling and I believe a Californian, Rob Hall, was involved in the design...but I digress. Re women and cameras, there was another woman, Angelique with an M3, who corresponded here. Still there? A female professional photographer, of svelte proportions at the newspaper where I work, uses Nikon F5s and D1s. Undoubtedly fine cameras capable of superb results. But her backpack weighs as much as my whole luggage if I am travelling. It's serious. Lugging this heavy stuff really does cause back and joint problems. Perhaps Leicas would help. Finally, are Leicas sexy? Well, one woman definitely admired my old IIIa (how cute, a Leica!). Another admired the M3 (heavy, but isn't it beautifully made?) I don't believe admiration for mechanical things is purely a male obsession, but men do get single-minded...don't we! Now I'm trying to think of two things at once. Too much. It's too hot here in Kiwiland so I'll sign off. Keep up the entertaining post

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), December 15, 2001.

Bob, you said in referring to me "most of the post I have seen from Margret have been faily vitriolic in content. She does not often post just to 'talk' Leica." ????? Are you confusing me with someone else? I have posted a technical question, about a film developing problem, a question about bokeh, something I had never heard about, responses to queries about why I have an M6, and several other things that I considered to be rather anodine. I would appreciate you pointing out to me just what vitriolic comments I have made. I do not mind being taken to task for something I have done, but an accusation for something I don't think I have done needs some clarification.

-- Margaret (fitz@neptune.fr), December 15, 2001.

David

Good point about back ache.

My wife used to carry around two F3's, one with the big motor, and seven prime lenses, plus a hammerhead flash. She had serious back problems for the last three years due, no doubt, to this. Now she uses a couple of zooms, an F100, and a small flash. Much lighter and her back problems have disappeared. I suspect that my two M6's, three lenses and flash weigh more than what she carries around these days. Now it's my turn to have shoulder problems!

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 15, 2001.

has anyone gone back and read this thread? shame on all of you. your forum is what you bring to it. it speaks of who you are, individually and collectively. this thread does not serve you well. do you read your posts before submitting? do you reflect upon what it is you are about to contribute, and how it serves Leica and photography, and your kindred netizens? do you think and feel at all?

Leica deserves better

-- daniel taylor (lightsmythe@agalis.net), December 15, 2001.

Quite right Daniel.

I apologise to everyone for my remark about my wife's backache.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 15, 2001.

...And I for going OT and bringing up sewing machines.

My appologies to any offended,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 15, 2001.

should you read the postings of the last few weeks, there might be a familiar ring to too many of them, and the dissonance begins to hurt ones ears. Margaret seems to be one of the few that can spell and articulate an idea, and Alfie is entitled to his opinions as we all are. the value of a forum is that everyone can express their views and share their observations. the astute reader will soon be able to ascertain who uses their cameras, who does not, and those that simply denude a forum of its vibrancy and spirit because they haven't a clue about getting a real and purposeful life.

-- daniel taylor (lightsmythe@agalis.net), December 15, 2001.

While I'm certainly not against good-natured trips off topic (they're often the most interesting part of a thread), I agree with Daniel Taylor. One of the biggest attractions of this place used to be the surprisingly high level of civility, even among people who disagreed.

And a note to the militant anti-Alfie contingent: if you think Alfie's ramblings are detrimental to the board, consider just how unpleasant it is for most us to have to wade through all of your negative bullshit.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 15, 2001.

Since people are expresing remorse at this point, I

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

Since people are expressing remorse at this point, I would just like to say how sorry I am for selling my Autodidact. God I wish I had it back. Has anybody seen any good ones on e-bay? (I want a real Autodidact, not the later Autodidactamatic.) Thanks, Dennis

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

Alfie: I didn't understand the relevance of sending Peter to read Neitsche. Is there something in Neitsche that would shed some light on all this? Or is it supposed to be a punishment? Is it his concept of the "overman" that appeals to you? I wonder if you are identifying with the "overman," someone who is above the rest of us?

I'm also puzzling over your word, "shamanistic." A shaman is someone who uses magic to heal, and also to control others.

Alfie, how do you think of yourself?

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), December 15, 2001.

Don't get this wrong: it is just about the theme "Leica and one's spouse".
And don't call me a sexist, either.
I never forget that every now and again somebody mentions (in their posting)
their Leica M type, plus a word like "fondling" or "stroking" or "caressing"...

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), December 17, 2001.

Just to get back to your very question ("Here's a naughty question: Do you have a spouse?"), how about this for an answer: "I'm not naughty since I got me a spouse."

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), December 17, 2001.