I believe I have the right to defend myself with regards the comments made by Mr Crisp in a post I made earlier with regards 'ethics.'

Mr Crisp launched a personal attack on me which I feel is bang out of order in a public forum. Therefore, using this very same forum, I shall defend myself. Below you will find copies of all the emails that have been sent between us. Personally I feel that this refutes most of what Mr Crisp accusses me of.

E-mail from Mr Crisp: Recieved 11/21/01 This is for questions. It isn't ebay and you aren't supposed to list things you want to sell. Kevin Crisp

Email from Nigel Turner in reply. 11/21/01 Dear Mr. Crisp... Sorry you seem so offended by what I posted. I know only to well that its not E-bay, however, many people are always on the look out for such valued items as the ones I have to offer for sale, that it would in my opinion be a disgrace not to leave a message for people who have such similar interests in life. You may also be interested that the items ARE listed today in E-Bay. I also took the time to look around on the Greenspan site to see if there were any rules regarding such postings.. or better still if their were appreciate areas to leave such messages. Alas, I could find no such information available. I suggest Sir.. that you find more important things in life to complain about, rather than a simple little message to inform folks about something available that they may (or may not) interest them. I don't ask them to view any messages.. do I ?? Please feel free to visit my website, were no doubt you will find me to be a person of high integrity.

Email in reply from Mr Crisp. 11/21/01 Nigel: I'm sorry, but you seem to me to have a very thin skin. My email to you was simple statement intended to make you better informed. It was not rude, I did not take offense. Despite your suggestion that you reviewed the site rules, I think point #6 of "rules" prohibits what you have done in words anyone can understand. I enjoy, learn from and contribute to the question forum and would rather not see if used as a swap meet. You will note that I sent you a private email, not wanting to cause you any public distress. To twist your posting into something that would have been a "disgrace" to have not done seems to me simply bizarre, self-important, and a touch grandiose. If you are simultaneously advertising something here and auctioning it on Ebay then I think you need to review the Ebay rules as well. Are you going to drop the auction the second someone says Yes to this posting? What happens to the high bidder on Ebay? What if someone accepts your price here and it goes higher on Ebay and they don't get it? If you want to wrap this all up integrity, good luck. I don't see it. Kevin

Email in reply from Nigel Turner. 11/22/01 Dear Kevin, Thanks for your reply... I just simply said on the LFUB that I had items for sale, and also to get in touch further. I never once inclined that the deal could be 'cut and done' on the LFUB. And what do you mean by self important?? That sounds even more bizarre to me. I haven't broken any rules as far as I know with E-Bay. After all, I own the item, it belongs to me, and it is my right to sell the item for as much as I possible can.. as everyone else does. Like I said before, I just wanted to let like minded people know that a quality product was available. Take Care. Nigel.

Email in reply from Mr Crisp. 11/22/01 No, go back and look at your ad(s) if not deleted by now. You said you had things for sale FOR A PRICE. So if somebody called you up and says "OK, I accept," then you aren't free to say you were just kidding, or wait for the auction to end, or go bid whatever you want on Ebay. And if you have something for sale for a price elsewhere, then why are you auctioning it? The Ebay bidders shouldn't have to worry about your trying to sell things elsewhere for a price. If you didn't sell to the high bidder then you would violate Ebay rules. Kevin PS: "Inclined" is a different word than "implied."

E-mail reply from Nigel Turner. Good lord man... get yourself a life Mr Crisp and stop working yourself up into a frenzy over something so trivial. Happy Thanksgiving. And one other thing... it say's on the board that I have items for sale, and that 'I'm asking' for a certain fee. Does it say anywhere that I would definatly sell the item?? Enough said.

Email reply from Mr Crisp. 11/25/01 Let me see if I can review where this stands: 1. You claim you read the rules but miss the one saying not to sell stuff; 2. I send you a simple two sentence email informing you that this is improper; 3. You tell me I have the problem and need to get a life; 4. When others take exception to your grammar and spelling you try to claim that YOU are the English expert and that they just aren't as up on the language as you are, despite bizarre misuse of common words and spellings which aren't "correct" anywhere; 5. You profess high ethics, which can somehow be determined if one checks your website (how? because you can take the same picture in Canyon de Chelly that O'Sullivan did); 6. You try to sell something on the forum at the same time you are auctioning it on Ebay; 7. You think this is OK, because you only said you were asking for offers you didn't actually intend to sell it [query: why the heck would you offer it for sale in the first place!?!]; You're right, I just don't understand and you are the most sane and ethical person I've ever met. I give up. I'll go get a like you did... Kevin

Email Reply from Nigel Turner. Dear Mr. Crisp, I'll just treat your last email with the contempt it deserves. I personally am not going to waste my time arguing the merits of something as petty as this. If you feel you have anything that IS worth talking about, such as your personal achievements in the field of photography, then please don't hesitate to contact me further. If on the other hand you insist on acting childish, then please find someone else to do it with. My time is far to valuable to waste on you.You may also be interested to know that I have had a lot of enquiries with regards the items that I have for sale from fellow board members. Best Wishes. Nigel Turner.

And thats it folks for another night. Make what you will of it. These were all the emails from both sides.

And once again sorry for spelling etc.. I'm a photographer, not a writer.

Thanks.

http://www.nigelturnerphotography.com

-- Nigel Turner (npturner@earthlink.net), November 26, 2001

Answers

Nigel,

For what it's worth, just ignore Kevin. Set up a filter in your email so that anything sent from him goes in the trash.

-- Jim (jimzpace@yahoo.com), November 27, 2001.

Oh, for God's Sake, give it a rest Nigel....

-- Jorge Gasteazoro (jorgegm58@prodigy.net.mx), November 27, 2001.

Quote from you Jorge in the earlier thread!!!! ''Well..... I think Kevin's response is very well thought out, I would like to see your response Niegel.''

You asked for it Jorge, you got it! So why are you complaining now?? Double standards or what?

http:www.nigelturnerphotography.com

-- Nigel Turner (npturner@earthlink.net), November 27, 2001.

This is real simple. The Large Format discussion guidelines state, "Classifieds (for sale or wanted adds) and commercial postings are not allowed in this forum and will be deleted." Mr. Crisp simply informed Mr. Turner of the rules, since Mr. Turner appeared to be unaware of them judging from his recent "for sale" postings, and Mr. Crisp did it privately and without malice. Now Mr. Turner knows not to post anymore "for sale" ads. No harm done, and certainly no need to get defensive and blow this out of proportion.

Happy Holidays,

-- Ross Martin (ross@rossmartinimages.com), November 27, 2001.

Nigel, you already have 2 threads going on the same subject, not double standards, only the more you post, the more I tend to agree with Crisp, it seems to me it is YOU the one who cannot leave it alone. Aside from the fact that Crisp's arguments did make more sense than yours! As to the previous statement, if you notice it was from your other thread on the same subject, and I beleve you did answer, so now you are actually giving me more than I really wanted. So again, for God's sake leave it alone.

-- Jorge Gasteazoro (jorgegm58@prodigy.net.mx), November 27, 2001.

Gentlemen:

For the sake of the integrity of this forum and from those of us that respect your ability and willingness to duke it out but do not feel that this is the place to do it, please take your disagreement elsewhere. There is a simple litmus test as set up by the founders of this venue for contributions and it is clearly stated prior to a post. The purpose of this exchange is very simple and one dimensionally to promote large format photography through the sharing of knowledge and experience with those that are interested in gaining access to this information.

Over the years that this forum has been in existance, we have been fortunate that while there will always be disagreements on any subject, the exchange back and forth has been to the subject and the reader has been able to form their own opinion. Folks have been able to state their opinion in disagreement and respect each other. If we maintain a highly professional large format forum, we can attract a high level of contributors from which knowledge and experience will emminate. If we let it degrade, we will all suffer. Please, think of the rest of us and just let it all fade away.............

-- Michael Kadillak (m.kadillak@home.com), November 27, 2001.

LOL jorge take a look at the things you said to see how silly you look. any chance of seeing your work here, i'd like to see it And i'd like to see kevins as he is soooo good at critising others

-- Lisa Bevis (Lisa_Bevis@hotmail.com), November 27, 2001.

Hi all

To guys had bad days maybe and both should now stop and go back to shooting pictures not guns! Peace for all!

-- Armin Seeholzer (armin.seeholzer@smile.ch), November 27, 2001.

Oh Heck! Another otherwise useful photography forum ruined by a bunch of pedantic, childish loosers. Grow up gentlemen (and I use that term with some hesitation).

-- Dave Schneider (dschneider@arjayent.com), November 27, 2001.

I guess the real question here is which LF camera, what format and what lens you will use to photograph each other should you ever meet? Also, how about "what is the best tripod" to use to make sure the camera is solid as I jerk the cable release in photographing another jerk? Or how about "What is the best film to use when trying to make another look bad"? Or you could try "will a LF digital back work in photographing an ego clash"? You might try "color or B&W to get the feeling of the personalities"? How about another on which enlarger is best to print the photos with, or what paper or if it should be developed with Amidol? Or maybe "What would Ansel do... and if he did that would Fred Picker come out of retirement and do it also"?

-- Dan Smith (shooter@brigham.net), November 27, 2001.

Mr. Smith, are you going to have T-shirts and bumper stickers printed with "WWAD." Similar items seem to sell real well, why not a "what would Ansel do" series? Just a thought.

-- Dave Schneider (dschneider@arjaynet.com), November 27, 2001.

Ah Lisa, how silly I look? I am only asking Niegel to leave it alone since it really is not a productive thread. Apparently you have not followed the 2 threads on this subject that have been going on....so next time before you call someone silly, why don{t you make sure you are the one not the one looking silly by not knowing what you are talking about. Makes life easier for all of us.

-- Jorge Gasteazoro (jorgegm58@prodigy.net.mx), November 27, 2001.

Might I suggest a different forum for this "discussion?" Flame on.

-- Chad Jarvis (cjarvis@nas.edu), November 27, 2001.

A couple of comments:

First, I agree with everyone who's saying that this has gotten completely out of hand. Hopefully, Q will simply have this thread deleted.

Second, I'm firmly against posting private e-mails in a public forum. There's no reason to take a petty private spat public.

Last, as is often the case, the person who is unable to drop these things is the one who is usually in the wrong. Nigel - you posted the e-mail chain and having read it, and at the risk of having you direct your rath in my direction, I just have to say that I'm with Kevin on this one. He started out with a simple, correct statement (maybe not the most polite phrasing I've ever seen, but certainly not overly rude), that you turned into a minor war.

The fact of the matter is, he was right you are wrong. The Guidlines for posting state:

"Classifieds (for sale or wanted adds) and commercial postings are not allowed in this forum and will be deleted"

What is difficult to understand about that statement?

I don't doubt your word that you looked for guidance on the site and maybe you just missed this statement originally, but the fact is, your post was inappropriate. Can't we just leave it at that and move on?

-- Tim Klein (timklein@qwest.net), November 27, 2001.

ENOUGH! I Can't take any more of this!!!

-- Jimmy (jimboz@yahoo.com), November 27, 2001.

A wise man once said:

It is better to remain silent and look a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

-- Peter L Brown (photo_illustration@bigpond.com), November 27, 2001.

Another wise man said ...." making trouble with a fool is like stepping into a mud puddle.....don't complain when you get splashed."

-- Emile de Leon (Knightpeople@msn.com), November 27, 2001.

I like my stuff crisp... like pizza crust from the oven. But then I also use a pancake turner at times. Guess the argument will never end, will it???

-- Dan Smith (shooter@brigham.net), November 27, 2001.

in the same vein, do you know why you should never argue with an idiot?.....because the people watching can't tell the difference....

http://georgestocking.com

-- George Stocking (gwrhino@earthlink.net), November 27, 2001.

LOL George.....good one!

-- Jorge Gasteazoro (jorgegm58@prodigy.net.mx), November 27, 2001.

In the words of the great Charlie Brown...AARGH!!!

-- Steve Clark (agno3@eesc.com), November 27, 2001.

From the headlline, I thought this was a question about the effect of swings and tilts on lens performance.

-- Ellis Vener Photography (ellis@ellisvener.com), November 27, 2001.

Nigel,

give it a miss, there will be those that agree with you and those that don't. Posting private emails is not right and is rude.

Mr Crisps words were to simply say the forum isn't for selling things and to quote it

This is for questions. It isn't ebay and you aren't supposed to list things you want to sell. Kevin Crisp

Nothing rude just a straight forward email stating guidelines of the forum. now you can argue black and blue that you think it should be ok as some may be looking for the items you have or whatever, but guidlines, rules are there for a reason.

Kevins mistake, he replied back

Yours you still going on about it.

Go shoot some more film, you seem a lot better at doing that.

You pics are very nice

-- Keith Anderson (kaphotography@optushome.com.au), November 28, 2001.

As I said at the top of the post, I felt a need to defend myself against the remarks made by Mr. Crisp in the post with regards 'ethics'.

I didn't make this a public discussion, I simply asked a question, that Mr Crisp felt a need to take a stage further with his answer.

As Mr. Crisp has formally apologised to me in the public forum, then as far as I'm concerned the matter is over and done with.

I would also like to take the opportunity to apologise to all of you that have been upset by these postings. It was never my intention to upset anyone. I'm also sorry that my initial postings with regards the items I had for sale upset folks. I'll refrain from doing so in the future.

I would also like to take this opportunity to fix things with Mr Crisp so that this doesn't happen again in the future. Two people have things in common, but sometimes a totally different outlook on what is right and what is wrong.

I admit that posting the emails was maybe not correct, but being a Brit I felt I had little choice at the time. And its hard to put us down and keep us down, when the bit is between our teeth we don't generally let go.

Sorry to all.

Best Wishes. Nigel Turner.

-- Nigel Turner (npturner@earthlink.net), November 28, 2001.