Food Stamps (Social Issues)

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I noticed a lot of discussion about food stamps on another thread and it looked like something we could discuss in depth. Before I start, I do want to clarify that I am not trying to put down those who are disadvantaged; but rather to explore the reasons behind the problems and possibilities for change that would help everyone. Also, I think it's very rude to snoop in others carts, take mental notes of what they are buying and how expensive it is, and whether or not they are using food stamps! I have to wonder if people who delight in criticizing the buying habits of others ever notice when someone buys good, solid food with food stamps. I'm not on welfare, but it just goes beyond common decency and good manners to spend time nosing around, even at a store, however the person is paying.

Anyway- I can think of four or five types of people who use food stamps.

1. Frugal, sensible people who are down and out and will probably be off the system soon. This type is hardly noticed.

2. The wasteful type, that buys a lot of chips and soda pop and steak. You know, these folks were probably just like this when they paid with cash. Going on or off welfare doesn't change your food preferences. Many Americans would fall into this category.

3. Then there is the feast and famine type. They use up the food stamps halfway through the month and have to subsist on whatever food is left in the house. Sometimes there is only one meal a day, if that. They spend days feeling hungry and deprived, unless there is a soup kitchen nearby, but these usually only serve lunch. They wait anxiously near the mailbox and it seems that the food stamps are always a day late. Finally the envelope arrives! Yippee! Off they go to the store, hungry, and buy everything in sight that they've been craving for the last two weeks. Practical food hardly enters their mind. These people are hungry! By the time two weeks have gone by, they have relaxed a little but the food stamps are almost gone and there are still two more weeks before the next ones come. Sad to say, a lot of people fall into this category as well, both on welfare and those on a paycheck.

4. Some people just don't know how to cook or can't cook. For example, they may not even have a hot plate to cook food on. If they are homeless they may not even have a campfire, as this could attract attention to their camping site. These people have to buy canned goods and stuff that can be eaten as it is.

5. Some folks do not use their foodstamps at all. Instead, they sell them for half the value in cash. $300.00 in stamps equals $150.00 in cash. Why? To buy cigarettes, alcohol, or drugs. This is just plain wrong, especially when there are hungry little children in the house. It wouldn't be hard to bust the people who buy the stamps, but I have heard that there is now a debit card in use that should help.

Change- what do you think can be done to help the problem? Here are a few ideas I had.
Every family that applies for food stamps or welfare should have to attend a class in budgeting, where they learn to spend wisely and make the money stretch. They would have to pass the class to qualify.
Maybe a similar class in nutrition.
Why not a community garden, with participation being mandatory? So many hours per person in the family. In winter a green house could be used or they could hold classes on growing food. Some crops could be standard, such as potatoes and other mainstays. Eveyone would have to help with these crops. Then each family would also be given their own plot or bed if they wanted it, to plant whatever they wanted to. Classes in food preservation and preperation could be given.
Maybe a commmunity farm, with chickens, pigs, and other high return livestock. Everyone would help feed, make pens, clean pens, and then they would get a share of the meat and eggs. Of course it would have to be supervised so people wouldn't overfeed or do something that would harm the animals. What do you think? What should be done differently?

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 06, 2001

Answers

Response to Food Stamps

You have a lot of good ideas, however, there are programs out there, they just don't attend them. For 4 hours of community or volunteer work, families can get a large box of food, usually for as much as $30. They don't because they have to do those hours. Baby sitting for free even counts.

Classes, while a good idea, is impractical. Who is going to pay for that? You will need the space, you will need someone to teach, you will probably need papers and hand outs, who will pay for that. I assure you, tax payers would love to have the majority of the leaches off the system, but putting more money out to "help" wouldn't go over very well.

There are several community gardens all over the country. They require you to help in some fashion, to get your food discounted or free. Once again, you run into the people not wanting to put out the effort.

We need to have stronger laws, enforcement of those laws, and those already in existance, and give them the altimatum. You work or now aide. Only give them aide for the current family - get pregnant again, oh well, you should have protected yourself better.

I'm cold and heartless when it comes to this subject because I see the abuse all too often. I personally think that implanted birth control should be instituted while on Government subsistance. If you can't take care of the children you have, stop making new ones. Plain and simple.

For the few that actually try to make thier quality of life better, I applaud them. For the rest, who just want something for nothing, it sickens me that I have to struggle to make ends meet, and they sit around and get paid by the State.

-- Wendy A (phillips-anteswe@pendleton.usmc.mil), November 06, 2001.


Response to Food Stamps

Requirements for food stamps recipients? 1. Mandatory birth control, such as norplant or some other fool-proof method. 2. Drug testing...and for parents with positive tests, they give boxes of food, not stamps that can be traded. 3. I agree with the budget class thing, assuming childcare would be provided. I was on assistance years ago, as a pregnant teen with no partner. Would I have gone along with the above qualifications in order to get the stamps? Absolutely.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), November 06, 2001.

Response to Food Stamps

I think your ideas are great. There are alot of programs around here too, the people just choose to try to find a way around them. I agree with the way you catagorized the food stamp recipients, but still....maybe if they recieved a weeks worth at a time??? I could see the same thing happening with the feast or famine people..but at least it would be for a fewer amount of days that they would be hungry. It is just such an endless cycle for some people. I would like to clarify...I noticed what was in people's grocery carts while working in the stores...checking out the groceries it is hard not to notice. I have probably been at a low enough income level for 80% of my adult life to have been recieving food stamps, and chose to work instead. Have never had a problem finding more work. It IS out there for those who search for it. I do have so much sympathy for the children, and of course for people who are honestly too sick or disabled to work, but for the others..hmmmmm..I just don't understand.

-- Jenny (auntjenny6@aol.com), November 06, 2001.

Response to Food Stamps

Boy I wish I knew the answer, But there are so many reasons why people are on welfare in the first place that there could never be a one size fits all solution.

I do think that more classes should be offered to help people who do not have these skills to help themselves.

At one time we qualified for these program as we were officially "poor". We did not consider ourselves poor because we had a warm home and food on the table. It took alot of time and ingenuity to make what we had go farther. We could not waste anything.

The difference is that 1) we had these skills to start with, 2) We hadn't saddled ourselves with debt to start with and 3)we did not feel the need to keep up with the Joneses (or our own family members-- sometimes harder to resist).

I am a scout leader in an area where there are alot of people living in poverty. As such, I try to make activities be frugal so everyone can participate. Except for one or two exceptions, In my experience (and I am only documenting this experience over the last six years) there is not the motivation or skills to rise above the circumstances in the parents of the kids in my troop who are needy. By this I mean we offer to families the ability to volunteer time instead of pay for a trip (when splitting communally raised money). The families that need to do this and could benefit from doing this never take advantage of this.

ONce I gave my free ticket (which was for leaders)to an amusement park to a parent who said they couldn't afford to pay for a ticket. My kids (who I had told beforehand that we could not afford toys and trinkets and snacks at the park)had to watch this mother then buy her daughter a stuffed animal larger than herself. Instead of bringing a drink and snack from home as the rest of us did--this pair bought every expensive snack there was. This parent bounced a check for something and never paid back the troop for the amount or the $20 the bank charged.

I've had lots of things like this happen over the years with my troop. For almost half of the troop I'd say this is free babysitting for their kids. They can't be bothered to even bring the kids to the meetings, someone else--usually me--does it. Their parents couldn't care less to help out in any way (no matter how minor), Can't be bothered to follow the instructions or sign required permission slips. I've got druggie parents, parents who shoot up their houses, teenage parents who haven't got a clue about responsibility but a big mouth to complain when they are asked to follow rules.

I anger the parents with money because I try to make a place for these children. I try to be a role model for them and maybe a couple hours a week they are away from unsupervised television, alcoholic and abusive parents. When we go camping(the only way they will have his experience) I always bring extra bottles of water, jackets, hats mittens--because these kids will ALWAYS come unprepared because their parents could care less if they are cold in the woods. I try to keep our crafts to recycled things that don't cost anything and our activities to free activities. IT doesn't take money to have fun or learn things.

When we camp EVERY kid wants to cook--WHY? because no one will teach them at home. They were delighted to learn how to use a sewing machine. They always try nutritious things on a camping trip that they would never ask for, nevertheless receive at home. Celery sticks with peanut butter in them? Not one was left even though they insisted they wouldn't want them.

I guess what I am saying is that there ARE people who really need it and there should always be a way to help them even if you have to help alot of ignorant clods along the way. For every six irresponsible families I have one like the disabled widow who cheerfully offers to make phone calls for me. Boy I need that and she and I both know that it is the only way she can help.

Sadly, I don't feel alot of hope for these parents--I am putting all my time in shaping young people to be all they can be. I encourage anyone who has any time to give to do the same with scouts and church youth groups and sports--this is really time well spent! You don't have to have children--there is such a need for volunteers.

We are no longer in poverty (not that I considered ourselves such then)but my kids do not go to every trip or activity offered. Sometimes we say no--things are tight (budget--NOT overall finances) so you will pass on this one, but maybe go on the next one.

I hardly see any of the poverty families doing this. Although we have found sponsors for their daughter's dues and registration, they are always angry at me that we can't fund a free ride for ALL the trips. And they know this going into the year but it happens every year over and over. I go way out of my way to find sponsors and have sponsored kids myself--but these people will not lift a finger to ask (much less belong to) a church group for instance, to request assistance. I must go out and get assistance for them. I have people be very ugly calling me for money to send their kids to camp when I can't afford to send my own to summer camp.

You can try to have a community helping one another by planting vegetables or help out in exchange for assistance, but in my experience most won't even bother.

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


Response to Food Stamps

Sorry I too have worked my butt off not to get public assistance then watch people with food stamps buying only name brands and the best cuts of meat .I on the other hand was shopping sales and buying no frills brand and cheap cuts of meat .Some how that just doesn't seem fare .I am not against helping anyone but along with some of these great ideas above I believe they should have to attend school so they have a means to make an honest living.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 06, 2001.


Response to Food Stamps

Our county offers free cooking & canning classes through the Extension office, but hardly anyone shows up. I wish there was some program to help people over the rough spots in life. The only way we would qualify for food stamps would be to spend all the money we are saving for a new (used) car. But then we would really be poor! It would be nice if people didn't have to be flat broke before getting a helping hand.

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), November 06, 2001.

Ann, our church has a private school with the lowest (by far) tuition in the area -- and we've helped many families by not charging them any tuition at all, as we consider the school to be a ministry. We have seen all the same things you are seeing. There are too many people out there who think the world "owes" them something, and they don't have to do anything in return, not even take care of their own children.

As far as "snooping" to see what people are buying at the store, I don't, but if I'm in the checkout line behind someone, it's kind of hard NOT to notice what they are purchasing and how they are paying for it. We've never been on public assistance (though our disabled daughter does get SSI now) and there have been times we were living not much above the starvation level. My husband worked two jobs while I stayed home and raised a garden, rabbits, and poultry so we could feed our babies. Even when we lived on a small city lot.

The big mistake is that these people have not been taught to work and take care of themselves, and what makes it worse is that their children aren't being taught, either.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 06, 2001.


They should give people on assistance a basic well-balanced, calorie appropriate diet (ever notice how many truly obese people are on welfare) and that's it. If it is rice and beans and some veggies, so be it, the choice is take it or leave it. If you get tired of it GET A JOB. Even on a stringent program such as this, you are still eating better than 75% of the world. You wouldn't have near the illegal selling of food stamps either.

As others have said, there are classes--it is sheer laziness that people choose not to take them. Boiling water for beans and rice is not rocket science.

If you find that people aren't feeding their kids, they should be placed in foster care until the parents get their act together.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 06, 2001.


Way back when my children were young I was asked by the extension office if I would teach people how to use the government commodities that they used to give away, such as dried beans, cheese, flour, peanut butter I was asked because the reports from the garbage people was that tons of the stuff was showing up in the trash. Sooooooo we started to have classes few showed up and when they did they really didn't want to learn because some of them got the idea that if they showed up they would get more food. I guess the government still gives the commodities and I wonder are people using them to any better advantage now then they did then. We had people tell us that their dogs liked the cheese but they wouldn't use it themselves because it didn't come sliced, or they didn't like the beans. My question to them was had they ever tried to use them, no doubt they had not. My feeling is that if you put a bag of groceries in a home that consisted of basic ingredents, no premade food, most people that got the bags couldn't make a meal from it because they don't have any idea how to cook if it isn't a heat and eat they won't bother.

I honestly feel sorry for these people because they have no idea of what they are missing. I know people are in need but something has to be done to get them off their butts and go to work or at least do something to earn the free goodies. Yes I know that with this attitude some children would go hungry but would they be any hungrier then they are now with all the giveaways?? Sally

-- (mallardhen67@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


Rebekah,

I think that I started the thread you are referring to several weeks ago, and although it got a large number of responses we never did come up with any viable alternatives. You have expressed in much greater detail some of the ideas I was thinking of at the time- however, my perspective, I'll admit, is an idealistic one because I have absolutely no first hand experience with poverty, homelessness, welfare, etc, nor do I know anyone else who has. Although, having said that, I am sure that as a young adult trying to break into the entertainment business many years ago, I surely must have lived well below the poverty line for several years. I can remember eating potatoes, macaroni and cheese, and rice for weeks at a time, and I can also remember several times when the electricity was cut off in our apartment because neither my roommate nor I had money to pay the bill. But then, it was all sort of a big adventure at the time, and we understood that as freelance roadies there were times when there simply wasn't any work available, so, we sucked it up and made do until we could work again. But, as I said, we felt that we had made a choice to enter a profession that was at times financially precarious and we never looked to anyone else to bail us out. We never even applied for unemployment benefits, to which we were certainly entitled, having worked for employers who were required to pay into the unemployment fund.

I agree absolutely with your suggestiona about having community gardens and requiring people to work in exchange for assistance. Who in their right mind, including the recipients, the program administrators, the government in general, and the taxpayers, can justify free handouts to people who won't work!!!! Of course there are people who cannot work, and never will, and society as a whole should gladly offer assistance to them, but NOT to those who could work, or at least volunteer, but refuse to do so. Why should they? They know that they can get something for nothing- we have shown them that, and by continuing to do so we merely enable them to continue to abuse "our" generosity (or is it stupidity?).

The only suggestion I have is that maybe we should offer a whole lot less assistance, because very few people are going to willingly give it up as long as it is available. My heart bleeds for any child who goes around hungry or otherwise uncared for. But, it is not the government's responsibility to raise those kids, and, as already mentioned by others, there are plenty of programs around to help feed and clothe them. Maybe what we should be doing is forcing the parents to pay for their own kid's support or penalize them the way that other non-custodial parents are being punished for failing to pay child support. People want to cry and scream about their "rights", but since when do they have the right to produce children that they then refuse to care for? Why do we have to continue to pay for them? And what about the rights of those same children to be fed and cared for?

It's all beyond me! All I can do is look around and see a system that obviously doesn't work. If society offers a needy person a job or a volunteer opportunity in exchange for public assistance, and that person refuses to participate, then I say that society has met their obligation to help that person, and we owe them nothing more. Sorry if I seem unsympathetic.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), November 06, 2001.



Let's answer the question in another way. Before these women got on food stamps, welfare etc. how many of them were just like most young women on these boards? How many children can you have, when your husband walks out with the income, how many can you support when your only skills are wife and mother. Your kids would be in public school next week, and you would be flipping burgers. Food stamps would be a blessing! Having the time to attend classes, whose going to watch all those kids, how are you going to work when he takes the only vehicle with him, let alone drive at night to classes? Whose going to donate the land and teach all these women how to garden? Honestly if you don't know what you are doing the time, water, tools and seeds would also buy alot of groceries! Think about coming up with next months expences without your husbands salary.

Bottom line if all men paid for all the children they had, most women would not be on public assistance. Men are the ones who should be on mandatory birthcontrol if they don't have jobs, or are not supporting the children they already have. They are the ones who need to be in classes!

I loved the idea of the farm, with chickens, pigs, and other high return livestock?? High return? Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


In our area a lot of people used to trade or sell their food stamps for drugs. Now you have to have an EBT card that slides through at the check out like a charge card...it is harder for them to let somebody else use them!!!

I will be 50 years old next May. We work very hard to be as self-sufficient as possible. But back in 1982 my husband fell under a lawn mower, cut off his big toe and wound up in the hospital for a mnth and nearly died from the infection. He was off work six weeks and was just getting back on his feet, both literraly and figutatively when our house BURNED! We went on food stamps for ONE MONTH! They really helped for that one month believe me! We had three kids at home at that time with the youngest less than two years old.

I think that is the type situation food stamps should be for. Also our church at that time helped us a great deal and so did the community....That was nearly 20 years ago and we certainly will never forget that time in our lives!

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.


Ohio went to a system to stop a lot of the abuse. There are no more food stamps. You are now issued a credit card from the state and a PIN. Companies who wish to take food stamps must have a computer system that can interface with the states. The computer system must be able to flag invalid items such as beer and cigarettes and a number of other "store items" cleaning products, dish washing, waxes.

This interface stops the out and out sale of food stamps since none exist. You cant spend all your stamps at one time and must be used over time. Your limited to what you can buy. Since its all computerized the state can track abuses. There was some problems when it first comming out. Lots of people were not comfortable with using the credit cards and forgot pins, but it seems to be working well. Fraud and abuse has been slowed. A number of people disapeared after the program started. Number of dealers accepting stamps were reduced since most were in it for the abause.

As for earning your keep, Our county has you to work at several county sites to earn your stamps. Our local recycling center is operated by county assisted people. You can refuse but the amount of money you get is smaller. There are some outs for people with physical and mental issues that would keep them from working.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), November 06, 2001.


First, for the people that are disabled, and I mean disabled, not just too lazy to work, we should support them with food stamps, what ever it takes to make them safe and well fed. Now for the rest that all of us have had experience with. I have a brother that has lost one leg and having problems with the other. He draws disibility from social security. He has heart problems and just cant get around and can't set still for very long because of the circulation in his other leg. He will not use a scooter at the store he says he just don't need it and it upsets me to see a person that I personally know that rides around in one just because he is so fat he can't comfortably walk over the store. And his condition is from just overeating and no exercise. People that are able but do quilify for assistance if they are able should do community service. Pick up trash if able, babyset for other people that are on assistance but taking classes, they could even set and watch the power plants for terrorist, most any one could push a button to call for real guards. (I have seen tribes in war torn countries that the old and infirm stood watch and beat on old dish pans to warn the tribe members in case of intruders.) There are hundreds of jobs that could be done by people on assistance. Now if you are on assistance and assigned a job you have to be there at a certain time and do the job. If I don't show up for work, am late, or just don't do the job I have never had a job that they paid me anyway. If you don't do the work you just don't get the assistance. Having kids with out pardners, (We used to call that scr---ing around, things have really changed) should not qulify anyone for assistance. Find the pardner and make them pay. If the mother or father can't take care of the child, sorry but that is where the courts should take the child and make the parent pay for support in a forster home. Not the best solution but hey this world is not going to be perfect. In short if you get assistance you would be expected to do something in return. Just my opinion but to me being self sufficent and taking care of your own, and drawing a assistance check from some state or federal goverment agency is impossible. Homesteading is getting hard for me and the wife just because of the age we are getting to, and if we were trully disabled we could not do the work. We have had several neighbors in the past couple of years that have sold out their farms and moved to smaller surbaban homes because they just could not take care of their farms.

-- David (bluewaterfarm@mindspring.com), November 06, 2001.

Wow, this thread really hits a sore spot for me. In order to get the experience necessary to be able to continue in my career (as I knew I would be unable to complete my degree) I worked as an engineering assistant for minimum wage. I lived in a shared apartment in a pretty scary part of town with two guys from China and rode a used bike to work as I didn't have money to put gas in a car. Even cutting down to the bare minimum I still had no extra money for food and rather than ask family or the state for help I gave blood plasma every week for $14 (enough to buy potatoes, rice, apples and butter). In no way do I assume that I was in worse shape than many and I was fortunate that I only had myself to care for.

I have a sister however that has abused the system since day one and it sickens me. She purposely had a child so that she could get assistance and when that starte waning she had another child. She has NEVER worked a single day in her life and never intends to. She now has 5 children (she lost one otherwise there would be 6) and one on the way. Although she is now married to a poor soul that works his butt off in order to support her and the kids.....she spends it on house trinkets. She signs the kids up for the Angel Tree, Toys for Tots and Salvation Army Chrismas toys every year (even tho' these kids get a HUGE Christmas from family every year) and also signs up for holiday meals from several organizations and then throws a HUGE Christmas meal to show off for the rest of the family. To top it all off, Medicare (or Medicaid - can't remember which one) paid to put her on hormones to GET pregnant for her last two children! This is a family that wants for absolutely nothing as my sister is wonderful at talking family in to handing over funds. I know that there are a lot of people out there that are responsible and desperately need the help, but I obviously know of at least one that is abusing the system. I do wish we could discover a way to get the help to those that need it and not the ones that are intent on abusing the system

-- lisa (lambrose@summitpolymers.com), November 06, 2001.



alright everyone let someone who grew up on welfare give you all a lesson on the things that i saw.

almost everyone i knew was on welfare. i remember the excitement that went around when the first of the month was nearing. the adults werte making all their plans on what to do with the welfare check and what food to buy with the food stamps.

my mother along with all of her friends who were on welfare (which was all of them) would go buy clothes for them, but not for their kids.us kids were either given hand me downs or clothes that people who weren't on welfare gave to us.my mother and her friends always looked great with their fancy hairstyles and new wardrobes. all of their kids were a mess with clothing that was way to big, small or just plain worn out.

if the adults wanted to go out on the town and spend the welfare money on movies or going to the bar they did while the kids were lucky to get to a store once or twice a year.

with the food stamps the adults bought themselves the best food those stamps could by while us kids ate plenty of peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches.

most of these woman were either remarried or had a live in boyfriend who did get the best steaks. my mothers second husband use to have a great looking steak while we ate our sandwiches. as he ate his steak he would make it a point to tell us kids how great tasting the steak was. when he would finish with the steak he would ask if one of us wanted to lick the plate, we would all jump at the chance to get a taste of the steak even if we did have to lick the plate. sometimes to be mean he would start to hand the plate to one of us then he would lick the plate clean.

being poor and on welfare was horrible. i have always thought that the lazy bums should be made to at least clean the ditches along the side of the road.

what was most frustrating about the welfare system is that it seemed like our goverment was begging people to go on welfare. many times my mother and her friens were given advise on how to stay on welfare and be able to get more from the tax payers every month. they were to lie about extra income which came in by the men they had living with them. my mother had eleven kids i am her 2nd child. i love my mother and brothers and sisters and wouldn't trade them for the world but the welfare system has got to go. i think that if i have 30 close woman relatives with kids that at least 25 have been on welfare at one time or another. some are even 2nd and 3rd generation welfare collectors.

i have always hated welfare and always will.

i could go on and on about growing up on welfare but it would fill a book. i am glad to say that all of my brothers and sisters, and also mother (for 20 yrs) are very hard workers. i am glad to know that the tax payers days of paying our way are through.

sorry this is so long. thanks, dorcey

-- dorcey (bngcrview@aol.com), November 06, 2001.


Hey, I agree. People who WILL not work, shouldn't eat. That's why the mandatory classes could be useful. If they don't bother to come, they don't get help. People who are working, like the mother Vicki decribed, could get off by having a note from their boss, that could be called and verified, and maybe scheduling a weekend class. But there are areas of the country where it's incredibly difficult to find work, especially in the winter. Just making the classes mandatory would generate some jobs, as well as eliminating some people who are just too lazy, thus actually saving money. There could be a test to make sure that they actually learned something and didn't just keep the chair warm.

Vicki, by high return livestock, I meant animals such as laying hens and hogs. Not for example, pygmy goats and llamas. The chickens could probably be fed in part from the veggie waste that the stores throw away!

Another thought, maybe require GED classes for those who didn't graduate? I can't see that we should have to feed dropouts who didn't want to exert themselves enough to get a diploma, and with a GED the people would be more qualified for a job.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 06, 2001.


I grew up as an Army Brat. The army gave us (and all the other families at the time) free-medical,dentist, eye care. And groc. at a cut rate. We wore shoes that were purchase--3 pr for 3 dollars. Mom made all our clothes. At the end of the month there wasn't any food in the kitchen except flour and MAYBE milk. BUT-- My Dad and Mom always wore the best, most stylish of clothes and paid 75$ for a pair of shoes.They bought jewery every pay day. Mom and Dad went out to the clubs every week end. The bar was always full of the best liquor money could buy. They smoked cig. and drank coffee all day long! Always had at least one new car.They both had hobbies that took lots of money. They didn't even have a checking or saving account until we left home.

They never bought books for us to read or took us to the library. We were not encouraged to join in school activities, go to others homes or to "be something". Just to grow up and get out of their lives!!!

IMHO--the goverment (army) was giving my family the chance to live a good life and this is how they choose to live it. I know there are people who do not abuse the system. BUT it is always the children who suffer! Not the adults who are the abusees.

-- Don't want to Say! (nonameplease@not here.com), November 06, 2001.


I disagree that the classes would help with budgeting. I have known some poor people and trust me they can BUDGET better than millionaires. How else to you think mom's with children live on $5,500. per year.

Yes there are druggies and lazy people in the world and yes some do get food stamps but the majority of the people getting food stamps are actually working.

Unless you have ever been poor for an extended period of time you have no way to approach this subject from any knowledgable perspective. Until you have been so poor for so long that your clothes are worn out with holes in them and you still can not replace them then you are only on the outside looking in and don't really understand how to help these people. You are looking from the wrong angle so can not see the real daily problems encountered by the poor. You are looking at how can we keep our money going to these people instead of knowing a way to help them. You are looking at the problem from the more normal flow of your own life so do not see some of the horrors these people live through on a daily basis.

How many of you have rats crawling around your house and you don't have the money to even by rat poison to kill them or have the money to buy the materials to try to stop us the holes? How many of you think you would sleep well at night knowing when you get still at night the house comes alive with rats and occasionally snakes chasing the rats in your more rural areas? If you do not ever get a decent nights sleep, never, for weeks on end how long until you are so sleepy that you slip up in your job and get reprimanded or fired leading to more poverty. Rats and snakes are only part of it. The lack of heat in the winter is a major problem. The sorry clothes they have to wear do not fit in with other employees attire so they are ostracized at work; you can not get promotions and raises in pay being ostracized. There are a great many things about being poor most people never know. Most of society only sees someone they do not like who is getting free food at the grocery store.

One of the main things that would help low income people is free daycare. With the current economy I do not see free day care anytime soon. Oh there are some programs out there that pay a percentage but the day care centers want full payment. When the parent(s) income is so low there is rarely enough money to come up with the remainder so the child no longer is cared for and the parent has to quit work to care for the child. This goes against the parent from getting out of the rut type jobs and into decent income levels.

Another good thing that could help greatly is instead of paying section 8 rental cost you pay the same money on an acre and a half with a mobile home. Give them a few gardening tools seeds and some miracle grow to grow a garden. Give them the building materials for a small chicken pen and small shed. This way they can produce for themselves more food than they normally get for a month now. It will also give them a sense of accomplisment which will help build their self image which is low in many cases. It will help them to BELIEVE they can accomplish something and might even give them courage to step out and accomplish something though impossible to them before.

I don't like whiners of any kind poor, rich or even middle class. Don't be a whiner that someone else is getting something for free that you are not getting. Try for a change to really help do something about the problem instead which would be much more valueable for the time spent.

Get your friends, church, employers, business people and other organizations together and each pitch in and buy that acre and a half with a mobile home and see a life changed in your community. Don't judge them help them.

obo

-- Obo (notwiththis@thread.com), November 06, 2001.


It's important not to stereotype people when discussing the food stamp issue. Five years ago I started a county-wide pantry to help those in my county who were having a tough time. I grew up in a region of the country where everybody helped their neighbors. All of us went through hard times at some point and neighbors just helped each other out. It's how things were done and if done properly, that approach will still work today.

I live in a county with 478 square miles and a population of 14,000 people. About 3,000 of our county residents are very well off and live in a local golf and ski resort. The other 11,000 people average slightly more than $9,000/year income. Almost 3,000 of these folks are elderly citizens living on meager social security fixed incomes.

A large number of the senior citizens are widows who live alone because their family members have either died or moved away. Most have medical problems and must often choose between medicine and food. The image that food stamp recipients are lazy unwed girls with three illegitimate kids ripping off the system isn't accurate.

Our pantry is staffed and operated as a completely volunteer effort. Volunteers and recipients alike come from all walks of life. People between jobs, people who work hard but only receive minimum wage and have several children, people who've had a major catastrophe in their lives -- every possible circumstance you can imagine. Yes, there are a few folks addicted to alcohol, or whatever, and a few who won't work for any reason. But, the majority of people need help. We aren't exactly handing out filet migon and wine, but we do offer personal respect to all.

Our pantry operation is based on the simple premise: "I was hungry and you gave me food." Nothing complicated. No food police. For USDA food there is minimal paperwork. Some folks won't fill out any paperwork for various reasons. Some may be hiding for whatever reason. Yes, we know that a couple of people are abusing the system, but 99% have serious needs. Donations come from all kinds of places, both in-kind and cash. Some people grow fresh fruits and vegetables for the pantry.

If people qualify for food stamps, they can receive USDA food. Others receive non-USDA food. The motto on our pantry sign reads: "Neighbors Helping Neighbors." On average, we assist 250 people a month from our little pantry and distribute about 3,000 pounds of food per month. We know that we are supplementing people who receive food stamps, but many social programs are very limited. We also know that several of our recipients have managed to get off of food stamps and gain regular jobs.

We also offer free health screening through a local rural health outreach program. Some of the kids that go through the health screening have never before been examined by a doctor. Some pregnant girls have never had pre-natal care. Some senior citizens don't even know they have diabetes until they receive our health screening.

On distribution day we offer a warm place with coffee, apple cider, tea and pastries while people wait to be called to receive their food. We also carry their bags of groceries to their vehicles. Our 4H club and boy/girl scout volunteers are invaluable. We treat people with respect and kindness. Some nice friendships have been formed. Many recipients are hungry for a lot more than food. They need to know somebody actually cares about them.

My whole point is that there are alternatives that go with food stamps. And when we receive hand-written letters from people, including kids, thanking us for what we're doing, we know we are making at least a small difference in the world in which we live.

I'll finish with a short story about one of our recipients. She is now 85 years old, and in her glory days was just as tough and independent as they come. In her retirement, she lived alone in a big old leaky farm house with only a kitchen cook stove for heat. All members of her family were dead. She never married. During her working years, she was a nanny in Washington, DC. She worked for several politicians and had pictures scattered around her house of all the children she'd taken care of over the years. I recognized many of the big-name politicians in those pictures. She stayed close to home in recent years because she wasn't allowed to drive. When I delivered food to her each month she'd show me her flower garden and talk of days past. Last year I could tell she was developing Alzheimers disease. In her lucid moments she told me how hard is was for her to lose her personal independence. She knew she was going downhill. The rural health people checked on her once in a while, and it was finally necessary to put her into a nursing home. She is now weak and frail. She's no longer tough and independent. Her disease has robbed her of her memories. She doesn't know anyone anymore. Her flower garden is overgrown with weeds. Her house was sold to pay for her care. Her possessions were sold off. Who knows what happened to the pictures of the big-name politicians and their kids? To my knowledge, none of them ever came to visit her in her retirement years. But, her neighbors helped her as long as possible - - and that's what "Neighbors Helping Neighbors" is all about.

-- Ed (ecpubs@lynchburg.net), November 06, 2001.


It saddens me that so many people are so willing to throw stones without knowing the truth. Perhaps there are people that steal from the system. But, there are many disabilities that "can't be seen" that prevent people from working. Head injury is one of them. Someone with a severe head injury wouldn't have the capability to work or manage money or hardly take care of themselves, but they are expected to because they look normal and talk normal. That is just one small example of a blind disability.

I was in a car accident that destroyed my life. I can't work. But to look at me, I look fine. I am one of those people you've seen in the grocery store buying food. And I can't tell you how wonderful it is to have had that service available or how horrible it feels to have that stone around your neck. And I've even bought crab a few times when it was on sale because I don't eat meat. When you have nothing to look forward to but bed and the bathroom everyday and death looks better than life a crab dinner once or twice a year can do wonders for a spiritual uplift. But, I didn't do that all the time. And I did try to budget my food stamps when I was on them. I'm just wondering though, those people you see in the store, how can you judge a whole person's life by one trip to the grocery? What a cruel group and this whole thread has changed my mind about a lot of the Countryside folks. At any time in my life I would hope I'd never judge anyone like that unless I knew for a fact what the problems were. And I'm not talking about the ones that do know of the abusers. It just is a horrible feeling to be in a situation when you can't help yourself to have people degrade you even further because you "look" okay. It's so sad. You've brought me to tears.

-- Diane from MO (walte@getgoin.net), November 06, 2001.


Hello Folks, Henry David Thoreau said something like this..."if you give the poor more money, they will buy more rags". Jesus said, "there will always be poor. Why, criticize them for being poor,whether it is their circumstances or not. You should be thankful that you are not on food stamps. That you have a good job. That you live in an area where there are resources and opportunity to improve yourselves. I say count your blessings! Your lives could turn around any second and you could be depending on what you are now saying is wrong for others to do. Don't be so self-righteous about poverty. There will come a time when you will be glad that the government has programs that help you. Sincerely, Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.

Diane,

My friend is in a similar situation with a handicapped parking placard. He doesn't mind showing his authorization to law enforcement, but he sure gets yelled at a lot by passersby.

I don't think anybody on this board would say you were not entitled to get food stamps in your situation. My own thought is that there is not enough trying to contact relatives first to get help before hitting up the taxpayers. If your own family won't help you, that should be a clue to the taxpayers as well.

I bet there are a lot of people who have no idea that someone they love is living on the edge. I don't think that you should be compelled to help someone who's a 2nd cousin on the distaff side that you've never met, but certainly your immediate family. Parents, siblings, children.

As far as medical care, why not forgive interest or some or all of your student loan if you practice at a free clinic for some length of time. If you void the contract, not only would you be responsible for compound interest, you could also lose your license. Just a thought.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 06, 2001.


Thank you, Ed and Diane, for touching our hearts.

Peace and love,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.


I would rather see the government give away our tax dollars to U.S. citizens that need our help in the form of food stamps, giving away surplus foods etc then to see the government give the money to leach countries such as Israel and Argentina. As long as we have hungry in this country we should not be feeding other countries. Let's take care of our own first.

Dark

-- Dark (darkdakota@aol.com), November 06, 2001.


Well, I haven't heard anyone who has responded here whining about not getting for free what other people are getting. Most here have responded with suggestions and comments about what can be done differently. I personally know some people who are taking advantage of a program in our state called Welfare to Work that does pay childcare expenses for a time, and the state pays wages for a period of time, gradually the employee and employer take care of all the expenses themselves. The employer gets a tax break for trying to help. Most people I know on welfare could care less about this program, and try to find ways to get more money or benefits while abusing the system. I can only imagine the abuse a program that paid for people a house and land would incur. Habitat for Humanity in our town does help people buy a house while providing labor with the chosen family to renovate or build a dwelling, but to qualify the person has to really work at it, therefore they are motivated. I know lots of people who try to help welfare recipients, and are taken advantage of frequently. That is my perspective FWIW.

-- lauralee (notmyrealemail@anon.com), November 06, 2001.

Diane, I'm sorry. I didn't mean people like you, and actually, I started this thread because I was irritated by another thread where people were discussing what people had bought with food stamps. I thought maybe this would give them a positive outlet rather than gossiping about what all was in somebody's cart.

For what it's worth, I have been on food stamps and welfare, and I have been very very poor, and homeless off and on for a few years. Sometimes we had nothing to eat but what the soup kitchens gave us, one meal a day and free day old bread. As I said in another thread about homelessness, there isn't an easy pat answer, though we would all like for there to be one. When you're homeless, it's really, really, hard to get a job and keep it, period. I sold blood too, but this was quite a scam, since the buyers resell it at an enormous profit. Menawhile, you get just enough money to buy enough food to make you feel halfway normal again after draining your vein! (an aside-having seen the donors, I would have to be in horrible, awful shape to ever receive a transfusion willingly.)

I know what it feels like to stand in line with a full cart and some well dressed lady looking on disapprovingly as I paid with foodstamps. It took a long, long time before I had the nerve to pay for things with food stamps, I would try to make my husband do it. Sometimes I bought treats, but I did read labels and try to get good deals, used coupons and so forth. And the food always lasted until the end of the month! But I also had a lot of friends that I liked, but they didn't spend wisely. It was sad to see them hungry for the last two weeks.

I still think that every town should have a community garden, and maybe an orchard too. There are no easy answers, especially for those who are truly in need. Those of us who have been there know that.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 06, 2001.


The whole food stamp and welfare program is so screwed up. My daughter was on food stamps for a while. She got so many food stamps that she could not spend then all. She bought all the fixens for our family thanksgiving because she had too many food stamps. Then she worked a job that paid her an extra $500. This kicked her off the food stamps for the next 2 months. This same $500 disqualified her kids for a medical card for 3 months. What does that tell you about the system. You make an extra $500 and you loose $1000 in benefits. Really a messed up system. She was not allowed to buy laundry soap but could buy high dollar steaks. Next time you see someone in line at the grocery store and they have 3 or 4 dirty little snot nose kids beside them and steaks in the cart, don't blame the mother. Well, OK blame the mother because the kids are dirty, but remember, she is not allowed to buy klneex with her food stamps.

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), November 06, 2001.

I agree with most of what Rebekah and the rest of you have said, then, did you read Belles post? She makes a good point. In my community food stamps are worth double the money at the farmers market, trouble is most of the people who have this opportunity available to them would starve to death before they knew how to cook a fresh chicken, squash or head of broccoli. I worked with one such woman-third generation public assistance- 3rd generation! But, she was willing to learn! We had a 'cooking class' one afternoon, and it was a blast! I invited her to dinner 2 hours early, and taught her how to make a meal. Yes I know these are classes are available thru the system, churches etc., there is just something better about learning 'at home', and to boot she couldn't read well. Before you look down on most of these people try to understand that many of them have never known anything else besides pizza and barbaque, frozen and take out, they simply do not know HOW! Make it your good deed of the year to 'help a family' and teach a Mother to cook.

-- Kathy (catfish201@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.

I try never to judge anyone, especially if I don't know their circumstance. Homelessness and hunger could happen to any of us.

I consider myself very, very lucky, I have a wonderful loving family, a nice farm, and enough money to see me through most situations. Simply, even considering my health problems, I could not ask for anymore than I have right now. But there are so many people out there that don't have what I take for granted.

I don't look down on people who need assistance, I just think, "There but for the grace of God go I" My family and I try to help people that are less fortunate then ourselves in many ways. If you need some hay or your animals will suffer-ask if I have it to give I'll give it to you. A 4Her's that can't afford a trainer/instructor- I'll help there too. The whole family goes to help feed the hungry at a Thanksgiving dinner. We donate time and money for the less fortunate at Christmas too. I'm trying to figure out how I can donate eggs to our local food pantry. I can't get a straight answer from anyone if they can accept them. I'll keep trying tho.

It all depends on the situation but I feel that there are many more people out there on some type of assistance that really need it, than people who are just trying to get over on the system.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), November 06, 2001.


I have no problem helping someone for a short period of time .Everyone has a time when a little help is needed .I for one think people should get medical care ,and daycare.Trade school should be required .Help them to help themselves .We need to teach people a trade to take care of themselves in the future.I am sorry if some took comments the wrong way .I never judged anyone for there one trip to the grocery store to buy things with food stamps .Its the working there week after week and the same people buy all the high end products then talk about there weekend plans .Well sorry that is my tax money and they are doing better than me .It also makes me so made to see people wasting money on cig's.They have cash for that ,but not there children .Makes me want to slap them silly.There is no easy answer except this isnt working and needs to be changed. And please remember this is not dirrected at the person who really needs help , its pointed at the lazy sob's who don't want to help themselves.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 06, 2001.

Ain't it funny how so many of us on here believe the same way, i.e.; those getting food stamps hardly ever deserve them, yet our government continues to dish out the social monies like there was no end. Do you think we may have a bureaucracy that's out of touch with the majority? Sorry folks, the monster is to big and there is no taming it now. Statistics show that when LBJ's Great Society legislation changed the law to read that not just widowed mothers(aid to mothers with dependent children) could receive government aid but divorced and single mothers also, the numbers ran off the charts. And I'll go ahead and say it, single Black mothers led the way by tremendous margins and still do. Reduce that aid back to those widowed mothers and your welfare/foodstamp rolls would dry up like peanuts in the oven.

-- Red Neck (Secesh@CSA.com), November 06, 2001.

We don't need any racism here on this forum, and just to set the record straight, it is Anglo-Saxons who are in the welfare majority.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 06, 2001.

Say Redneck, generally I just ignore comments that indicate perhaps your peanuts were already too long in the oven, but could you please direct us to where we too can read the statistics to prove your terribly enlightened comments ? Thanks a bunch,

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.


Why should a widow with children get benefits but a divorced woman or single woman with children should not if they to are poor?

Either way I think the father should provide for his children. The man who died should have had insurance to cover the cost of raising the family for their protection. The divorced father should pay for the up keep of his children and the single woman who has a man's child should also get support for the child.

FACTS are there are poor people and they need help. If we can help them then we should. I personally feel it is a sacred duty to do so. I personally do not like government programs as I feel they do not help the problem. They only employ government workers to keep them employed; the poor are never really helped.

-- Obo (notwiththis@thread.com), November 06, 2001.


The debit cards some states have do a good job at cutting out fraud. I'm sure some find a way around it though. I really think the food stamp program should be more like the WIC program. It does seem a bit ironic that people can't use food stamps for soap but can buy all the soda pop they want. Food stamps should be for basic staples, fruits and veggies, etc. The majority of people would learn how to cook once they got hungry enough.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), November 07, 2001.

I was a military wife for alot of years and do you know that in the early 80's a Sgt with a wife and 2 kids made so little he could get food stamps. Though you would never catch a military man taking them. We eat alot of mac and cheese and rice just to get full at dinner time.Anyway I watch some tv cop show and in the big city they had a sting where they were taking in people who bought for cash food stamps. Only paying half of what they were worth! Wouldn't it be worth it for the county to spend the money like a grocery store to the compayns and get food direct. Instead of giving F-Stamps you give them a box of food for the week that goes on how many people are in the house. And then give them Milk and t-tissue vouchers. It seems like in the long run it would save them money because they would not have the store mark up and the taxes on top of that. Anyway once when I left my husband and the kids were 1 and 3 years old I went in to see about a med card and they said I could have F-stamps. I told them I would get on without them but I needed a doc if the kids got sick. I ask if they had the monthly food give away I would go to that, and they did. I got beens, rice, cheese, alot of day old bread, but you could put it in the frezzer and take it out as need be. I moved in with my folks and did stuff for my mom to work off the food, and I got a bit of money from my husband and I kept out 10.00 a week and gave the rest to mom. My grandma use to keep a big pot of homemade soup on the stove and the backdoor always open. It was the depression and if someone was passing through or a kid was hungery they seemed to know they could get a cup of soup and biscut at her backdoor. I really admired her.

-- Teresa (c3ranch@socket.net), November 07, 2001.

Obo, I agree that fathers should pay for the upkeep of their kids, but if the ex is wasting the money then the father should be able to get total custody of his kids without an expensive and lengthy court battle. Especially if the ex marries a deadbeat who won't work, which means the good (child support paying) Dad's is supporting someone other than his own children. There are scores of divorced fathers out there paying child support on time, yet there are no laws regarding how that support money is to be spent.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 07, 2001.

It is so sad to see the intolerance and hard-heartedness posted here. We should all remember to look at each other with loving hearts and that it is not our right to judge. I know that there are many abuses in our system, but do our leaders not abuse us and call it politics? We are forced to buy food that is contaminated, poisoned and irradiated to further the concerns of Monsanto, ADM and others. Yet we accept these abuses and wave our flags behind people who have only the interests of big business and ultimately their own purses in their hearts while we criticize those who need help. I am aware of people who live on welfare as a legacy and who reproduce to receive more benefits, but there are many who, like myself, cannot work and need help. I am college educated, a vegetarian, I do not smoke or drink, and I have no children ( no, I never will). My food stamp benefits last me the month and I buy one treat every month. A treat is something that is out of the norm, a jar of mango for example. I grow a garden and I forage for wild food to supplement my purchased food. There are so many necessities that cannot be purchased with food stamps...toilet tissue is one. You can eat , but you cannot ...! I think that an allowance should be given each month that should be designated for vitamins, aspirin, feminine hygine products, tissue, soap, etc. If you could purchase vitamins it would certainly cut down on the amount spent on health care! I avoided accepting any assistence for a long time, I felt much the same as many here, but I now realize that there is no shame in accepting help when it is needed and I am heartily grateful for the benefits that I receive. I would probably be dead without them. I know many taxpayers that are glad to see their tax dollars go to help me and others in my situation rather than buying bombs and paying huge salaries to our government officials who vote themselves pay raises so they can buy more fuel for their private planes. Think before you speak out against those who are less fortunate!! Who is really getting a "free lunch", the woman who buys candy for her kids or the senator who spends $500 of your tax dollars on lunch??? Which one is abusing the system? Every penny of my benefit money goes to pay for my mortgage, insurance and property taxes. I can't remember the last movie I saw in a theater, the last time I bought clothes anywhere except at a thrift shop or yard sale, I do not have a car, and now that we have the new card system for food stamps I can no longer buy food at a health food store or a farmer's market. Yes, I have a computer... it was given to me by a special friend and I share internet service costs. Each of you who resent the help that people receive should walk a mile in the shoes of those you would deprive of assistence. You should be forced to take a class in kindness before you are allowed to eat. Shame on you, all!! Especially those of you who are religious in your views! Do you think that any of your great spiritual teachers would begrudge food to the hungry? Jesus taught love and your views are certainly not honoring His teachings and His ways.

-- no name this time (xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx), November 07, 2001.

ok xxxxx, I'm not passing any judgement but I'm curious. If you're college educated, able to carry on an intelligent discourse here, able to forage for food and tend to a garden.... how come you can't work?

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), November 07, 2001.

Dave, That is none of your business.

-- no name this time (XXXX@XXXX.XXX), November 07, 2001.

xxx,

I guess I'm curious too. I thought you couldn't have a mortgage and get benefits such as you have been describing.

I think that maybe people should be able to get generic health items, but when others can learn to make their own feminine products, then the government has the duty and obligation to provide benefits in the cheapest, most efficient way possible. For example, a product called The Keeper would be far less expensive in the long run as a feminine product than supporting the the very wasteful (not to mention polluting) tampon/napkin companies.

The government should be able to negotiate a rock bottom price on such items, and that's what people on benefits should get. No choice. Same with food. There is a lot of surplus food out there, that actually goes to waste, because it rots in some warehouse instead of being given out in a "take it or leave it, and be thankful you're getting something" mode.

Most on this discussion have no problem with foodstamps per se, or other benefit money, but it was supposed to provide basic subsistence, nothing more. And, a lot of us here shop at thrift stores and don't go to movies, don't eat convenience foods, etc.--we don't see it as deprivation, we see it as a lifestyle choice.

If you have a "poor" attitude, you will always be poor, no matter how much money you have.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 07, 2001.


GT, Where is it stated that it is supposed to be subsistence living? I think that most would agree that it is barely more than that. Yes, many of those things are lifestyle choices in my case as well, and I do not see it as deprivation, I only mentioned those things in reference to previous postings. I think perhaps I didn't make myself clear, I am not complaining about what I do not have I am simply explaining that I do not live the lifestyle of the rich and famous compliments of the good ole USA. On the contrary, I am utterly grateful for all that I do have. As for the mortgage, I had that long before I ever received assistance and I guess that is the exception on the list of things to be thankful for. I would like to know if it was a man who posted about The Keeper. No one should make that kind of choice for someone else and let me get this straight, you want women to work for their benefits, live on generic bread and rice, take care of their children, shop sensibly, use cloth diapers (I am for that, but I don't have children), grow a garden, can and freeze the produce, raise livestock and butcher it, attend classes and MAKE their feminine products??!!! Do we have to make our own burkas, too??

-- No Name This Time (xxxxx@xxxx.xxx), November 07, 2001.

Diane wrote "It saddens me that so many people are so willing to throw stones without knowing the truth". Ernest wrote "Don't be so self-righteous about poverty". noname wrote "It is so sad to see the intolerance and hard- heartedness posted here. We should all remember to look at each other with loving hearts and that it is not our right to judge".

You all seem to forget that most of us who criticize the current system have qualified our statements by saying that we do not begrudge the help that is offerred to those who cannot work- we agree that those people should be helped. We also have no problem with helping people out for the short term- like those suddenly single mothers to whom Vicki referred. The problems occur when people who are healthy and otherwise able to work refuse to do so knowing that they can turn around and collect government benefits instead. And as far as those abusers go, noname, I say this to you- I believe that we all do have a right to judge when the money that goes to the abusers comes from the pockets of the wage earners in this country. There is no government piggy bank- all the money that the government pays out in benefits is first collected as taxes from the workers- of which I happen to be one. If you are among the disabled in this country who cannot work, then I feel a great deal of sympathy for you. But I'll tell you a story- my older sister had epilepsy from the time she was 3 years old. She was never able to drive a car, she struggled through school, overcoming mental and emotional handicaps which were the result of brain damage incurred during a bout of influenza during the Northeast's epidemic in the early 1960's. Her dream was to be an elementary school teacher, a dream which she was not able to fulfill during her lifetime. But, she did persevere through 5 years of junior college just to get her AA, which eventually enabled her to work part- time as a substitute teacher. She also eventually married and had 2 kids. But, after she turned 18 she applied for Social Security benefits- she was denied because she had not worked enough to have paid in enough to get benefits. A real catch-22, because she wasn't ABLE to work, and even if she had been, she still could not have gotten to a job as she lived in a rural area with no mass transportation. She was forced to live at home with our elderly parents for several years, relying on them for her support and medical expenses, which I might add were considerable. My father was and all of his brothers, served as officers during WW2, and my uncles and older cousins served in Korea and Vietnam in their time, yet his own disabled daughter was denied benefits. Fortunately, my sister married a man who was able to support her and provide medical insurance through his job, until her death, otherwise my parents would have had to continue to support her. My siblings and I also contributed financially, and after her death I took in her 2 boys and raised them for 4 1/2 years with no financial help from anyone. So the way I look at it, every dollar of mine that goes to some abuser is money that could have better gone to help someone in my own family. Please don't tell me not to judge- and before you guys go jumping all over those of us who criticize the system, read what we have written- we DO NOT condemn those who are unable to work, only those who are UNWILLING. And, realize that we as a society are not doing any favors to the needy when all we do is create a dependency in them for government assistance. If we really wanted to help them we could better do so by providing them with the opportunity to help themselves, which I think was the original point of Rebekah's post anyway. I simply do not agree that we owe these people a living into perpetuity when they refuse to take responsibility for themselves and their families.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), November 07, 2001.


Yes I am female (the keeper pays for itself in about a year or so), no to the burka, nowhere in my above posts do I personally advocate the gardening/raising livestock stuff, since I think that American agriculture is the most efficient in the world, and most of us do better buying our food and perhaps turning our talents elsewhere. I also think there would be a lot more vegetarians if people actually saw animals being butchered.

It would be nice to learn gardening, but not everyone has the talent for it. I know I don't. Same with things like sewing. It is cheaper (both in time and money spent) to go to thrift stores and yard sales than to sew, unless you are making couture garments (and that is a preference, not a need). Canning takes a bit of knowledge, but freezing doesn't, or one can learn to live on staples which don't require refrigeration.

What I am trying to say, and maybe it didn't come through clearly enough (I am sorry about that), is that there is an expensive way to subsist and an inexpensive way to subsist. Government, on behalf of the taxpayers, has a duty to be efficient with the money it is spending. I know people who refuse to donate to charities because they feel that their taxes are already going to charity in the form of welfare and other assistance. I and others object to people who do not use their benefits wisely or honestly (like the selling of food stamps). Beans and rice make up a complete protein. Monotonous day after day? Of course (so is mac and cheese), but it is better than nothing at all. Or maybe something like an MRE (meals ready to eat) except scaled down a few hundred calories to reflect the civilian lifestyle.

I mentioned the keeper because your statements referring to health food stores (where food always seems to cost more) seemed to indicate a concern for the environment, and this is a reuseable product. Cloth diapers are much better also, for the same reason. Disposables, even the cheap ones are very expensive, as well as being bad for the environment.

When people still have preferences about what they will or won't eat (and I am not talking about bona fide allergies/medical reasons or religious restrictions) they are not truly hungry, and therefore to me, not truly needy. If others can and do make do with less, that should be the standard, not the present one where people on welfare can often have a higher standard of living (measured by stuff which is what society measures it by) than those who hold jobs. I personally know people who live in decent "low cost housing" (and then the added insult that some of these places are in tourist meccas like San Francisco that working people can't afford to live in or even visit anymore) courtesy of the government while others scrimp to afford older places that are cold and out in the middle of nowhere. Welfare has become comfortable, and it shouldn't be.

Everyone should do something in exchange for their benefits, men and women.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 07, 2001.


Oh, and for those who think I come across as hard-hearted or unsympathetic, I should add that I donate THOUSANDS of dollars every year to charity- namely Habitat for Humanity and Heifer Project International. These are charities which I CHOOSE to contribute to because the people they help are REQUIRED to help both themselves and others, which I think is the way it should be. I am willing to help anyone who is willing to help themselves, but I am NOT WILLING to provide free handouts to professional moochers.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), November 07, 2001.

lol, ok xxxxxx. I never said it was my business. I was just curious how someone would be able to do those things yet not be able to work. By 'work' I didn't mean the typical 9 to 5 employed by someone else, which I can relate to that some people have problems doing. There are many ways to make an income and since you stated you had a college education and did all those other things, even labor intensive things like forage for food and garden, I was really curious why you say you can't work. No big deal, I think you already answered my question.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), November 07, 2001.

-- GT you said "Obo, I agree that fathers should pay for the upkeep of their kids, but if the ex is wasting the money then the father should be able to get total custody of his kids without an expensive and lengthy court battle. Especially if the ex marries a deadbeat who won't work, which means the good (child support paying) Dad's is supporting someone other than his own children. There are scores of divorced fathers out there paying child support on time, yet there are no laws regarding how that support money is to be spent. "

Sorry but my experience is seeing -- millions of Moms who never see the child support for the children--- and have to do unbelievable things in order for their children to survive.

I do not think a man or woman for that matter who pays child support should get a itemized list of what the money was spent on as that would mean the custodial parent has to open their personal daily records to someone else and that is an invasion of privacy. The courts have decided what is a recommended dollar amount of care for a non custodial parent to pay and that is sufficient. The courts nor the custodial parent should have to get into line item validity of moneys spent. The ---custodial parent--- has been given ---the authority-- to raise the child and their efforts should not be questioned so long as the children are fed, housed and clothed. The custodial parent has the legal ---authority--- to spend the money on the childs behalf. The non custodial parent has had the ---legal authority of daily care of the child removed from them---. Many non custodial parents do not like this at all but when one parent is raising the child on a daily basis then they should have --the authority to act in the childs behalf---.

IF a non custodial parent has a VALID, provable case where the child is NOT getting fed, clothed or a roof over their head ----and the non custodial parent has always sent the money---- then they should certainly follow up on the welfare of their child. I do NOT think court is the first answer. I think if a parent really cares about their child and not just their $$$$ they send they will try to offer to help solve any problems the custodial parent has rather than cause more problems. Try to relieve stress rather than cause it, if you really care about your child.

I have found most non custodial parents are just angry that they have to send money for their child to their ex that they usually hate. THAT is NO excuse to cause problems for a custodial parent and therefore the child as problems caused are always felt by the child too.

Most non custodial parents need to just get over it. So what if the ex is being able to live in a three bedroom ranch to care for the children while the non custodial parent sends money that goes toward the cost of the children living there. At least the children are cared for in a decent manner. That should be the goal ---The CHILDREN living well and not in poverty.

-- Obo (not@today.com), November 07, 2001.


One type of person on public assistance has been overlooked. They are the ones who's husband worked as an underground surveyor in a 36" to 48" seam of coal to put his wife through college then, after she graduates and finds a career in her chosen field, her husband quits work to attend college to obtain his B.S. in nursing (BSN). Travel through time 3 months. The wife begins having seizures, speech impairment, migraines and a constant tremor in her right hand. Her right foot turns inward to the point she is almost walking on her ankle. Obviously, she can't work in this condition, and most likely never will again (pineal cyst discovered through MRI). Even being prepared for such a financial emergency, the reserve quickly runs out. Now the husband has to quit school and give up his dreams of a better life for himself and his wife and the wife's years of hard work are rendered moot. Husband is now seeking full time employment to pay the utilities, house payment, medications (just one; Diastat 10mg rectal gel, 2 doses, is $416.00 at Rite Aid Pharmacy) and care for his wife while he is away at work. For now, public assistance is very welcome in this household. Also, if I sound a wee-bit bitter about the cards we have been delt and this thread along with some of the responses contained herein, well. What can I say? Uh..... Yes?

-- Tim Hager (scf06121@wvnet.edu), November 07, 2001.

Public assistance is a drop in the bucket compared to corporate walfare.

-- (paradym@fidnet.com), November 08, 2001.

I have to say that I become frustrated when folks in the armed services complain about their pay. What is never mentioned is that they can live rent-free on a base (or recieve an allottment to live off base) with free trash, sewage, water, electric and heat on base. Only utility is phone. This in itself is worth a lot. Did I mention the free healthcare? I can't tell you how many military families I have known that spend all their money on hobbies and fun and have no savings. Even when they aren't paying for so many of their living expenses. Oh, and there is no incentive to conserve electric, water, etc.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), November 08, 2001.

I liked the surplus food that the locals, (county) gave out before food stamps. Powdered milk, split peas, rice,peanut butter, canned meat, lard & cheese come to mind.

-- hendo (redgate@echoweb.net), November 08, 2001.

Interesting thread. I notice the stereotyping. Have you considered that millions of hard working people have been let go this year. Here in NC my county has the highest unemployment rate for the state. I've watched the work force get hit by 35 plant closings. Many of those got no notice and no benefits. THEY are the ones that have had to go try to get Food Stamps. A lot of my neighbors have had to eat their pride and ask for assistance. While years ago it seemed the system was being taken advantage of I'd say that now the system takes advantage of the citizens. Many out of work people will have to wait 3 months before being qualified for assistance. Homesteaders like us typically keep 3-6 months food stocked back. I'm willing to bet that less than 10% of the work populace does this.

As to what can be done differently. Well I like the food bank ideas above. Our locale Church has been helping some families by paying their mortgage. The church secretary pays it directly to the lending institution thereby eliminating the chance that the money might get misapproiated.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.


One other thought. My wife and I have discussed at length the subject of "they had T-bones were eating Ground chuck". Heres the conclusion we came to. If the folks on food stamps want to eat well "let them" Maybe if they get healthier they can return to the work force. I no longer worry about it. If the kids get to eat Sirloin then Good for them. We've always eaten meat and potatoes. Probably always will. My wife has driven home the point to me a million times "Don't covet what others have"-"No matter where they got it". nuff said

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

I disagree with OBO- a custodial parent SHOULD have to give an itemized list of what they are spending the support money on. My ex- husband and I fought over monwy when we were married- he like to spend. Spent $100 on video games at the mall one afternoon while I was at work trying to earn money for a downpayment on a house. After the divorce we fought in court over child support (we shared custody). I shop at thrift stores and yard sales, he likes $75 sneakers. The judge sided with him. One pair of $75 sneakers is worth more then five shirts, six pants, and a winter jacket bought at a thrift shop for $30. What values does that teach the kids? They also based my wages on my best year in 5 years. That was a fluke when OT was available. The judge said if I could do it one year I could do it every year. This from a judge who gets her check on time every month from the public teat. Luckily my kids are 19 & 20 now and have learned the value of shopping cheap. Believe me we dress nicely. I find NEW jeans and sweatshirts for $2. Buy food on sale with coupons and have at least 6 months storage. I can and dehydrate produce from farmers markets. I drive an 11 y/o truck. What did we do with the extra money? Bought a place in '92 at the height of the recession that will be paid off in 9 years. It's in the kids name. What did the ex give the kids? Nothing. He is in debt up to his ears and has his house mortgaged to the limit. And we are still fighting over 12k he insists I owe him for back support. I will go to jail before I hand him another dollar. The kids have lived with me for the last two years and he hasn't paid a dime. I see court battles forever over this one. BTW, he's a paralegal. Can file frivalous suits all day long.

-- Dark (darkdakota@aol.com), November 08, 2001.

obo,

It is possible for someone to get regular on time child support for one family and because she marries a deadbeat with kids, then have to go on welfare because of the deadbeat who isn't working, especially if she is taking care of the deadbeat's kids instead of working (and she was working before she married the deadbeat since her own children were older).

That is what I mean when I say there should be some mechanism to take the kids away because it was obvious that the money was substantially supporting 6 instead of 3 (ex and 2 older kids). Obviously there is some sharing of money within a marriage, but no one should have to essentially support someone else's kids (and their parent) too. The deadbeat was the sole cause of this problem, not the ex-wife. I know someone at work in this situation, and no, he is not happy about it.

Oh, and one other thing, just because usually a mother has custody, doesn't mean she was objectively judged to be the better parent by a court or by any professional, for that matter. It is a fact that many do not even go into custody battles because unless a mother is on drugs or is a known felon (this is only an example by the way to show how hard it is to win a case) mothers nearly always get custody. Rather than pay hefty legal fees and know you stand virtually no chance of winning, if the divorce is otherwise friendly (well, as friendly as it can be under the circumstances) it is better for the children to save the money for child support and college tuition. That in no way makes the non-custodial father a bad parent. I agree that most custodial parents usually use the money for the good of the children. The above situation is an exception.

Anne,

Military housing is not only quite scarce (there is always a wait list, same with daycare and other bennies--you could serve your entire tour of duty and never get it) but it is 1) not that great, and 2)subject to all sorts of condominium-type rules (cut the grass every two weeks or you get fined or booted, etc.). Not to mention would you want to live where someone could announce inspections anytime of day or night? Not me.

The free healthcare is there for active duty personnel, and in theory for dependents and retirees, but in practice, everybody not on active duty is so far down the food chain that that's why they purchase outside health insurance.

It is true that you get allowances for housing (which don't go far in the real world) but even when you add them up, a starting postal worker (to use an example) makes more than a second lieutenant, so you can only imagine what the young enlisted make.

It gets even worse if you calculate the salary based on a 24-hour day (rather than 9-5) because military people can be ordered to do anything anytime, anywhere, and even be recalled from leave. Try that with a civilian employee. It is a fact that if you are married with kids and a sergeant or below, you qualify for food stamps, and that is sad when you consider these people are defending our country.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 08, 2001.


Anne, I'm afraid your wrong. According to recent Bar Association finding, most mothers get custody because the fathers don't fight for it. In the cases where the father does fight for it they WIN 70% of the time. I'll look for the link and post it.

Dark

-- Dark (darkdakota@aol.com), November 08, 2001.


I agree that the custodial parent recieving child support should account for the money spent. I did so by starting a checking account for my daughter as soon as she could sign her name - and all child support went into her account and she wrote checks for her needs; clothing, school lunches, school registration fees, etc..

I always felt that my responsibility toward my child was equal to that of my non-custodial ex. (Of course, it helps if you don't have any more children than you, yourself are capable of supporting.) I certainly didn't feel like I should be "paid" for "baby-sitting" my own child - that's a responsibility you take on when you have children. I argued with the judge and got the amount of support cut in half; I told him that I expected my ex to live in a decent home in a decent neighborhood so that I wouldn't have to worry about my daughter when she was at his house, and so that she wouldn't be shamed by his house. I also expected her to have the same things at my house as his - a room of her own, toys, a bike... and I wanted there to be enough money so that she could do fun things with her Dad too. It disgusts me to see parents use children as weapons against each other.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), November 08, 2001.


Dark,

That was me, GT who posted that, not Anne. I had two sets of comments in that previous post, which is why I put the two names in there.

My friend has 50/50 custody, but in some states, you pay child support whether they're with you or not. So the money situation is bad either way. I don't think you should pay if they're with you, or at least not the full amount. But it is disruptive to be causing kids to switch schools every six months or a year either way just to maintain your custody arrangements, so you can't win. One parent always spends more time with the kids. You can also understand why some support-paying spouses will only exercise visiting rights during vacations, because they figure that the custodial spouse should be doing something for the money besides just spending it.

As to what you are saying about custody decisions, that may be so now, and that is encouraging. 5-10 years ago it wasn't the case, and I am sure it varies from state to state. Also, in most cases it is still the mother's case to lose, not the father's to win, and any way you look at it it is money lost to lawyers that won't go to the children. Most fathers cannot afford to go to court unless the case is 100% airtight.

I am interested in seeing the link.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 08, 2001.


May God bless the sick, the lame, and those who struggle to feed their families. There but for the grace of God go I. May God have mercy on the homeless and the cold-you see them everywhere. May God bless those who try to do for themselves and just can't get it right. I begrudge them nothing, and if I can feed them, I will. And last, but far from least, may the federal Government come down really hard on those who steal from the system: because it isn't just us they are stealing from. Those who are taking benefits that they are not entitled to are also stealing from the crippled, the old, the sick, and from their own children.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), November 08, 2001.

This really makes me angry. Another weathly person saying what "The Poor" should do. How do we take care of "The Poor"? It's so condescending it's almost going back to slavery times. Let me fill you in, "The Poor" and you are the same people according to the US constitution. I don't think you should ask "The Poor" to take budgeting classes unless you are about to do it too.

You don't get it. A woman has a child, the father is gone, there is no food and no rent money. Until this happens to you, just shut the fuck up about what to do about "The Poor".

-- crazy welfare bitch (idon'tthinkso@yourmamma.com), December 22, 2001.


I think you are mistaken to assume that all the prior comments came from wealthy people. Or even people who haven't been in the situation you described. Maybe if you lost some of the hostility you showed, things would come easier for you.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 22, 2001.

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