Caution, freedom of speech may limit your ability to travel!

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread

You may think you have nothing to worry about, if you are a supporter of the "war", but maybe next time it will be you who are not following the politically correct party line.

Think about it!

GREEN PARTY USA COORDINATOR DETAINED AT AIRPORT PREVENTED BY ARMED MILITARY FROM FLYING TO GREENS MEETING IN CHICAGO

"I was targeted because the Green Party USA opposes the bombing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan." --Nancy Oden

(The Green Party USA statement on the war against Afghanistan is at http://www.greenparty.org/911.html

PLEASE FORWARD TO ALL MEDIA AND LISTSERVES. THANX (Mitchel Cohen) > > The Greens / Green Party USA 226 South Wabash, 6th floor PO Box 1406, Chicago, Illinois 60690 Toll-free Phone: 1-866-GREENS-2

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 2, 2001

> > MEDIA ALERT: >>>>>>>>>>>>>

GREEN PARTY USA COORDINATOR DETAINED AT AIRPORT PREVENTED BY ARMED MILITARY FROM FLYING TO GREENS MEETING IN CHICAGO

Armed government agents grabbed Nancy Oden, Green Party USA coordinating committee member, Thursday at Bangor International Airport in Bangor Maine, as she attempted to board an American Airlines flight to Chicago.

"An official told me that my name had been flagged in the computer," a shaken Oden said. "I was targeted because the Green Party USA opposes the bombing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan."

Oden, a long-time organic farmer and peace activist in northern Maine, was ordered away from the plane. Military personnel with automatic weapons surrounded Oden and instructed all airlines to deny her passage on ANY flight. "I was told that the airport was closed to me until further notice and that my ticket would not be refunded," Oden said.

Oden is scheduled to speak in Chicago Friday night on a panel concerning pesticides as weapons of war. She had helped to coordinate the Green Party USA's antiwar efforts these past few months, and was to report on these to The Greens national committee. "Not only did they stop me at the airport but some mysterious party had called the hotel and cancelled my reservation," Oden said.

The Greens National Committee -- the governing body of the Green Party USA -- is meeting in Chicago Nov. 2-4 to hammer out the details of national campaigns against bio-chemical warfare, the spraying of toxic pesticides, genetic engineering, and the Party's involvement in the burgeoning peace movement.

"I am shocked that US military prevented one of our prominent Green Party members from attending the meeting in Chicago," said Elizabeth Fattah, a GPUSA representative from Pennsylvania who drove to Chicago. "I am outraged at the way the Bill of Rights is being trampled upon."

Chicago Green activist Lionel Trepanier concluded, "The attack on the right of association of an opposition political party is chilling. The harassment of peace activists is reprehensible."

For further information, please call 1-866-GREENS-2 (toll-free)

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 05, 2001

Answers

Isn't that just grand??? "Tzu vill toten zee party line mit ous qvestion."

I'm not a Green Party member, or any party member for that matter, but the folks sure have their right to "peaceably assemble". I cannot recall any riots at Green party events, nor can I agree with nazism in any wise.

Thanks for posting this. I probably wouldn't have heard about left to my own devices.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 05, 2001.


Yeah, but wasn't it little subversive groups like that rose up during Hitler's time and kept us from helping the Jews? They were communist and we believed their stupid lies. I wish someone would have stopped them at the airports.

Do I believe that the Greens are communist? Well, since most green party groups have managed to help infringe upon our rights and freedoms as land owners, I would say close enough.

Don't forget this group has a history and so do it's members. You don't know that history but during wartime, their past statements and involvements can keep them from doing a lot of things. I'd say that it has more to do with their past involvments more than their current statements.

-- stephanie nosacek (possumliving@go.com), November 06, 2001.


Hello JOJ, How come I could not find a news article to verify this? I do not doubt it to be true but, would like a reference point. Sincerely, Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.

Stephanie, you're barking up a really twisted tree there, girl.

Espresso, I'll go find a url, if I can.

Folks, after posting this, I found out that there may be more to the story than meets the eye; according to the "authorities", Oden objected to being screened by the guards, and made a "ruckus". I'm hoping to learn more about this as time goes by.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 06, 2001.


Before starting to search for verification of this article, I started getting this really strong feeling of outrage at the statements Stephanie made.

Steph, aren't the communists the folks who stifle communication by refusing to allow people to speak out against them?

See my point, dear?

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 06, 2001.



I cut and pasted this from another forum and have not checked out the link myself but I think it is probably reliable.

" Oden has never been accused of violence, much less charged or convicted. Last time I checked, the Constitution still guarantees the right to travel to any citizen. IMO, this whole airport security thing is getting way out of hand, classic no-brain bureaucratic response to the barn door after the horse has escaped. From the Bangor Daily News Fair Use, for educational purposes only. www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.html?ID=44958 By Jeff Tuttle, Of the NEWS Staff November 3, 2001 Green Party activist denied Chicago flight BANGOR — Green Party activist Nancy Oden was grounded at Bangor International Airport on Thursday after reportedly becoming uncooperative when she was targeted for additional screening. Oden, who said she believed she was singled out for extra scrutiny because of her activist past and public opposition to the current war effort, was on her way to Chicago to attend a Green Party USA meeting when airline personnel told her that she had been selected to undergo added security screening before boarding. “I was treated if I were guilty just because I’m a dissident and I speak out,” Oden, a middle-aged woman who sits on the party’s national coordinating committee, said from her Jonesboro home after she had abandoned her travel plans. “They’re looking at me like I’m a terrorist and I’m just a peaceful person trying to go to a meeting in Chicago.” Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, security has been tightened at all the nation’s airports — including BIA, where armed National Guardsmen monitor the screening area and passenger lists are checked against the FBI’s terrorist watch list. Officials at BIA and American Eagle Airlines have a much different account of Oden’s afternoon run-in with the added security. “She was uncooperative during the screening process,” said American Eagle spokesman Kurt Iverson, who added that Oden reportedly would not stand still when security staff tried to wave a metal-detecting wand over her. “Obviously if they can’t submit to screening, [Federal Aviation Administration] regulations require that they not be allowed to board the plane.” Oden said that while she asked security staff not to touch her with the wand, she did allow them to complete their search of both her person and her baggage. Oden said that she did pull away from a National Guardsman when he grabbed her left arm and asked her if she “knew what happened on September 11,” she said. While acknowledging that Oden was singled out for added extensive screening, authorities said it was more likely due to the manner in which she purchased her ticket than for her activist past. Under newly adopted FAA regulations, more passengers — either randomly or based on a computerized profile — are being targeted for more intense screening during the boarding process. While industry officials were unwilling to release the criteria under which they would profile a passenger, they said the criteria did not include federally protected characteristics such as race, religion, age or sex. Without providing details, interim airport director Rebecca Hupp said that the FAA guidelines “have more to do with the ticket than the person.” For instance, one airline official said, a passenger who pays cash for a ticket the day of the flight would likely undergo added scrutiny. Oden bought her nonrefundable ticket online, she said. While an FBI spokeswoman would neither confirm nor deny the presence of any name on the terrorist watch list — another trigger for added security response — one law enforcement source said it was “extremely unlikely” Oden was on the list of potential terrorists because her name is unknown to the FBI. After the incident, Oden was told she could not take her scheduled flight to Chicago, and that she could not travel on any other airline at the airport that day. “If I had done something wrong, they should have arrested me instead of denying me my right to travel,” an upset Oden said Friday. “We’re losing more of our rights and people don’t realize it.”

--

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.


That said, I to find your assumptions that the Green party is communist to be absurd Stephannie. I am not a Green party member, but I can tell you first hand that here in my REPUBLICAN state, county and township that my constitutional rights as a property owner were violated by my GOVERNMENT and only the people that you call communists have done a thing to help me fight it. It is now before the Attorney General's office here in my state and we have been really put through the mill. Not only did my government distroy my property without a right-of-way, they are making me pay for their ditch so that some rich guy could develop his property.

Even if she WERE a communist, does the citizen lose their rights to travel based on political orientation???

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.


www.counterpunch.org I found this link on another forum, but apparently it was earlier than the Nov 6 edition. Couldn't locate it there, myself.

http://gpus.org/press/pr_11_04_01.html An explanation, sort of, by the green party.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 06, 2001.


Jeez, Diane, I should have waited before searching for links! Thanks; you evidently posted while I was surfing :-)

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 06, 2001.


for people who are 'educated' you still haven't learned to read. I didn't say that they were communists, I said they were subversive.

sub·vert (sb-vűrt) tr.v. sub·vert·ed, sub·vert·ing, sub·verts

1.To destroy completely; ruin: “schemes to subvert the liberties of a great community” (Alexander Hamilton). 2.To undermine the character, morals, or allegiance of; corrupt. 3.To overthrow completely: “Economic assistance... must subvert the existing... feudal or tribal order” (Henry A. Kissinger).

subvert \Sub*vert"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Subverted; p. pr. & vb. n. Subverting.] [L. subvertere, subversum; sub under + vertere to turn: cf. F. subvertir. See Verse.] 1. To overturn from the foundation; to overthrow; to ruin utterly.

These are his substance, sinews, arms, and strength, With which he yoketh your rebellious necks, Razeth your cities, and subverts your towns. --Shak.

This would subvert the principles of all knowledge. --Locke.

2. To pervert, as the mind, and turn it from the truth; to corrupt; to confound. --2 Tim. iii. 14.

Syn: To overturn; overthrow; destroy; invert; reverse; extinguish.

com·mu·nism (kmy-nzm) n.

1.A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members. 2.Communism a.A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people. b.The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

-- stephanie nosacek (possumliving@go.com), November 06, 2001.



Steph - you did say they were communist because you wrote: "Do I believe that the Greens are communist? ... I would say close enough."

Sorry, but those are your words.

Just in caser you care, I highly doubt that she was prevented from getting on the plane because she was a green.

-- jason Patrick (jason@patrick.com), November 06, 2001.


I responded the first time on my gut reaction, which over the years ha ve put me in good stead and kept me alive. God has delivered me out of a lot of situations.

Well, now I've done a little research on the 'greens' and I refuse to associated with any of them regardless of whether or not they call themselves christians or not.

They are socialists pure and simple. They want to change the constitution pure and simple. They want a socailistic society pure and simple. I voted for Bush because I don't want a socialistic society. Unfortunately people have believed the lie that we as a nation are a democracy, we are a Republic.

The Greens are worldwide and they have 10 Key fundamental beliefs. One of which is feminism. An other is to idolize the 'mother earth' which is anti-biblical.

It must be nice to have a party that is so worldly that the nazi's would embrace it.

Here are a couple of choice sites that pretty much puts them where they belong.

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), November 06, 2001.


I responded the first time on my gut reaction, which over the years ha ve put me in good stead and kept me alive. God has delivered me out of a lot of situations.

Well, now I've done a little research on the 'greens' and I refuse to associated with any of them regardless of whether or not they call themselves christians or not.

They are socialists pure and simple. They want to change the constitution pure and simple. They want a socailistic society pure and simple. I voted for Bush because I don't want a socialistic society. Unfortunately people have believed the lie that we as a nation are a democracy, we are a Republic.

The Greens are worldwide and they have 10 Key fundamental beliefs. One of which is feminism. An other is to idolize the 'mother earth' which is anti-biblical.

It must be nice to have a party that is so worldly that the nazi's would embrace it.

Here are a couple of choice sites that pretty much puts them where they belong.

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0817_Germans_Green_party.html Green Party in Germany

"1/88

When reporting on events in West Germany, the American media typically centers its focus on sensational anti-nuclear demonstrations staged in the streets of Bonn by the radical Green Party. But a Christian journalist visiting America from Munich says that reporters are ignoring the most important trend emerging in her country.

Jeanette Huber, editor of Brennpunkt , says that the current leadership in West Germany has begun to take a vocal stand for morality and Christian values - and she views this as an early signal that a major revival of Christianity is about to sweep over the nation.

In the last five to ten years, according to Huber, critical, anti-Christian organizations have arisen to challenge the moral fabric of West Germany. The "Die Gruenen," or Green Party, composed of vocal feminists, environmentalists, and anti-nuclear activists, has on several occasions made bold and challenging remarks about the government's traditional standards. This challenge has caused many of the West German politicians to stand courageously for what they believe. "They have had to recognize that they have neglected to communicate their convictions to the younger generation," explained Huber. "And some politicians have admitted that they have been unable to do so.""

Libertarian National Socialist Green Party: Theory http://www.nazi.org/party/theory.html

"Nazism provides part of the answer, as does the earth-first policies of Green political groups throughout Europe and North America. A return to individualism as posited by the Libertarian party of the United States, tempered with an awareness of a collective whole (a substitution of Judeo-Christian capitalist moralism with an awareness more akin to the founding "conservatives" of that country), is also a powerful contender. The Libertarian National Socialist Green party has therefore integrated those ideas into a package of new potential for human futures, one that does not embrace capital or technology but sees them as means to an end which exists without judgment, but build on a foundation of useful collective goals. This philosophy will accelerate the return of humans to autonomous beings who feel honestly equal with one another, and who can make decisions for the whole based on the convergence of personal interests and the collective in a single articulation.

For this to succeed, the first tenet of its advancement must be education without bias: by not introducing politics into education, we can free youth to find their reasoning in conclusions they have formulated, rather than things they have been taught to repeat in the name of conformity to "good." Through the destruction of Judeo-Christianity and its deceptive moralism the values of society can be returned to a state of initiation, where no bias toward a solution or against a taboo exists, permitting a free range of consideration and bypassing the fear of new developments which has been a hallmark of human society for too long now. By disseminating information we spread power and remove the need for authority, which by its nature becomes abusive, as it pits one center of power against a diversity of needs, and can allow greater autonomous action among individuals who will then be more inclined to respect each other's needs out of a lack of personal need and resentment unaddressed. The self-respect and respect for the world that is gained will enable us to envision living together in an unpolluted and unravaged wilderness where nothing is worthy of fear or denial, but everything is what we stand to gain. Working in parallel we as humans can create a great triumph of the will in a vision of a future of freedom and splendor celebrating the efficiency of a new, better design. "

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), November 06, 2001.


The Green party, at it's core, is pretty durn close to being fully communistic. HOWEVER (!!!!), regardless of her political mind set- if she isn't affiliated with anyone that wants to kill people because they aren't in her group- "We the People" have no business acting exactly like Nazi's and singling people out who are not toting the line of the in power party (republicrats), and treating them exactly as the National Socialists would. I have a great, BIG, giant problem with that.

My personal opinion on the Green Party is that they are not good for freedom. I won't whack them because I disagree with their views on, oh...let's say pet ownership.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 06, 2001.


Hell, it doesn't matter if she's a commie or not. I don't think JOJ was trying to make that point anyway. This is just another red flag issue resulting from our legislators trying to "DO SOMETHING". To protect our safety of course.

The Republic our Founders envisioned has hit the greased part of the downhill ramp now. We're NEVER going to get our freedoms back again. I'm sure there are some good legislators who are caught up in the "rush to keep us safe" who really don't understand what's going on. OK, maybe that's not true. How the hell could you NOT see where this is going?

If you haven't read John Silveira's excellent series of articles called "The coming American dictatorship" (www.backwoodshome.com)yet, I would encourage you to do so now, while this thread is still fresh in your mind.

"I seen a bad moon arisin'"- John Fogerty

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.



Steph - Come on now - Which is it. Are greens Commies or are they Socialist's. What is wrong with being for feminism? Are you against that? Think your point out before you post.

-- jason (jason@patrick.com), November 06, 2001.

The whole point I was trying to make is this. We hear what a particular group wants us to hear. Each group has its own propaganda. But, what we don't hear a lot of times is what goes on behind the scenes and there are a lot of scenes dramatized strictly for the press which is biased anyway.

I wasn't saying anything against JOJ, but I was surprised by those that flamed me. Maybe I'm gettin too old, I don't know. Maybe I've seen too much and read too much.

I'm not even going to respond to the question of what is wrong with feminism. That should be obvious.

People, I don't care if the green party dresses up in zebra suits! If they are against the constitution, want to put drug dealers back on the streets and promote worship of mother earth I don't trust them. I wish I had an ear to the FBI so I could find out exactly what has come down with that group over the years, but I don't.

What I was saying is that we don't know what has happened in the past but there sure are a lot of reports about what they have done in other countries and I don't want to see that kind of thing here.

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), November 06, 2001.


I am sorry Stephanie, I don't believe that disagreeing with someone is flaming them. Perhaps I don't understand flaming. No one has called you names or questioned your intelligence or anything drastic. Just did not agree with you.

You insinuated, in my opinion, that it was appropriate for her to be denyed her flight because of her politics. I could care less what her politics are, what her religion is or what her sexual orientation is for that matter. What matters to me is if an AMERICAN citizen is denyed freedom of movement based on any of the above when there is no threat to my safety or anyone elses. THAT was why JOJ posted the article and why I disagreed with your comments.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.


The Green party is a watermelon. Green on the outside, red on the inside. They are pretty much adherents to Marxism using, sometimes bogus, envronmental issues to further their agenda. There are several organizational members and cells of this group who paticipate in illegal and terrorist type activities While I do not support or approve of their thoughts, speach or actions, I will defend their right to SAY or BELIEVE what ever they want. However I will not support their perceived right to do some of the things they do.

As far as being denied the right to travel, so far, we are all still free to travel. Nowhere is it written that we have a right to travel on pravately owned commercial airlines. If we had that right, they would pass out plane tickets with the welfare checks. Alot of people are being denied access to commercial flights right now simply because they do not look or act like the rest of the sheep, not just this person. I support the privatley owned airlines to run their business as safely as they can any way they want. I have the choice of flying with them or finding another way to travel.

So far has the FAA denied any charter flights or grounded personal aircraft?

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


People, is it possible that some of us respect the earth, respect our fellow travellers on the earth, including fellow humans (of all races), animals, oceans, plants, etc, and still doesn't believe in Communism?

I believe that this is the political credo of lots of people, including mine. I'm not into big government, which is what a lot of folks seem to equate with communism. I personally thought that communism was joint ownership of all property, etc. Perhaps there are more than one definition?

I personally would be screwed under communism, as I understand it, as I have accumulated quite a bit of property, through hard work, investment, and some luck (being in the right place at the right time.) I'm certainly not in favor of having some boo-rat redistributing all the property.

On the other hand, I'm not against paying my fair share for the government programs which help people who have been less fortunate than I have. Does that make me communist?

I also am against people, or industry, dumping toxic chemicals into the nearest waterway. Does that make me an "extreme environmentalist"? Apparently so, if I understand the rhetoric I have received fairly often for my pro environment stance.

Stephanie, no offense, but it seems to me that you may be guilty of oversimplification of the issues. I know it's easy to fall into the trap of adopting a clear, straightforward position on various issues, and extrapolating from there, but nothing is black and white, regardless of whose dogma says it is.

Laura, your watermelon comment is a very cute cliche' , but adds little to our edification, in my opinion. Greeens and Commie pinko faggot whale loving lesbian (delete)s are not the same thing. And your statement that "Nowhere is it written that we have a right to travel on pravately owned commercial airlines." is very scary. You, of all people (you're in favor of less government, and personal freedom, I believe?) should be very concerned about big bro george's assault on our constitutional rights. How about "Nowhere is it written that we have a right to travel on publicly maintained roads?." C'mon! Look at the big picture!

You say you have the choice of travelling on privately owned airlines, or finding another way to travel. Did you know that you may not be able to find another way to travel, if the government chooses to disallow you from using public and privately maintained transportation methods? Did you know that, since AT LEAST 1968, it was illegal to travel in California unless you were in a car, or on a bus, or on an airplane? I was illegal to walk or ride a bike, or even a small motorcycle. It still is.

In Calif, it is illegal to walk, ride a bike, or hitchhike on a freeway. In many areas of the state, this means that it is impossible to travel on foot or bike, as there are no other routes between variouis areas that don't involve freeways, or tresspassing on private lands.

Gotta go fix dinner

joj

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 06, 2001.


Joe, only an idiot would be uncooperative with FAA security and think they would still get on an airplane. Her constitutional rights were not violated. I don't think she was singled out because of her "political opinion." Her name is on an FBI list because of her actions, whether she was ever accused or charged of anything is a moot point if she was at any monkey wrench activity even as an observer, her name was taken.

I am very concerned with our loss of constitutional rights. It has been incremental for decades but is now at an avalanche level. What concerns me a whole lot more than a watermelon not getting on a plane is that right wing politcal commentator, William Cooper was shot to death in Arizona by deputies. Now THERE is a man whose right to travel was violated because of his opinion!

Joe, just because no pedestrian traffic is not allowed on California freeways does not mean the right to travel is denied. You can get anywhere you want to go on the highways and byways and backroads and dirt tracks and train tracks. That law was instituted, I believe, in 1967 Summer of Love. It was a real problem that Hippies high on acid were playing freeze tag on the freeway and others were jumping in front of trucks. Remember, the speed limit back then was 70mph and our vehicles had much bigger engines and very poor headlights. Laws have to be made for stupid people if we just can't outlaw stupidity.

Jeepers, that just reminds me, the last time I saw watermelons in action was 20 miles behind a roadlbock checkstation, they were throwing themselves and pushing each other in front of moving vehicles on the state highway, that is, when they weren't busy terrorizing our neighbors and yelling death threats at Native American children. In fact, I witnessed them violate a lot of other peoples rights. Of course, they left real fast as soon as the rainy season started.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


"Her name is on an FBI list because of her actions, whether she was ever accused or charged of anything is a moot point if she was at any monkey wrench activity even as an observer, her name was taken."

This entire self reliant/freedom oreiented lifestyle could easily be determined to be a form of monkeywrenching.

Guess I will find out whether I am on the list soon enough.

I am also terribly upset over the shooting death of William Cooper...not the good. I don't like that one officer was shot either.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 06, 2001.


You are right, Doreen, Christian homesteaders are already labeled subversive. I don't know if you are on a list, but I do know that I was on one because of my opinion, and my actions. There are consequences for our deeply held beliefs and we all have to face them.

Our feds have been pointing their guns into private property and gunning down citizens for several years now. There are so many more than just the Weavers and Dividians that have died on their own private property because they disagreed with government policy.

Personally, if I was going to board a plane and there is some idiot making a stink about security procedures, I would be making it clear that I won't be on the same flight with that person unless they are stripsearched.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


OK, I warned you that I disagree strongly with some of you. Here's a quote from one of you.

Quote: "One of which is feminism."

To Stephanie who said this, I really hope you not knocking this. If it were not for feminism, you may well have been still considered little more than property today. Just look at the situation of those women in Afghanistan to get a glimpse of what happens to women in a society that has carried patriarchy too far.

Quote: "An other is to idolize the 'mother earth' which is anti- biblical."

When you say 'anti-biblical' I believe you mean they worship the Earth itself as a God. Whether Mother Earth is God or not is not my place to say. But I will say this, a more biblical view of this is adknowledging that this Earth is a creation of God and should be treated with proper respect and dignity. How would you think God would feel when He sees His Garden, His Grand Creation, treated like a giant garbage can?? I, for one, would rather have people worship an inert chunck of rock and treat God's Creation with care and respect than to have people that claim to follow God, and then proceed to treat God's Creation and His Children like so much garbage.

You say worshipping 'Mother Earth' is anti-biblical. I say treating God's creation and God's children with neglect and disdain is even more anti-biblical.

I'm not accusing you personally of the above charge, but I see many of your brethern that claim to be Christians and to follow God, yet treat God's creation and their fellow humans beings as so much trash. In my opinion, it's better to be a heathen than a hypocrite.

Do not demonize non-Christians until you see their actions. There is a world of difference between being deceived and being corrupt.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), November 06, 2001.


Good point, Nexar.

I'd like to add, and this is my perspective only, to say that something is "anti biblical" is not considered to be a big deal by many of us, who are not followers of the bible. There are other perfectly good morals to be followed besides the bible, dontcha know.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 07, 2001.


All I gotta say is those who voted for GW can thank the Greens for his election!

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 07, 2001.

This isn't an isolated occurrence. This fellow was banned from travelling because security didn't like the cover illustration of the book he was reading.

Nov el Security Measures

This Sacramento journalist had his photos destroyed and notes confiscated by the National Guard at LAX.

Reporter's Photos Destroyed

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), November 07, 2001.


I stated earlier that I would find out what you stood for and what you had fallen for, but I didn't realize I would find out so soon.

I prayed myself to sleep last night asking God how to respond about something that is obvious to me and this is what I woke up with ringing in my ears.

You Peep and Mutter and Chirp! Isaiah 8:19-21

And one of you is a New Age Witch

And for those who claim righteousness, how many times have you asked, "How long Oh Lord will the wicked prosper and the righteous perish?"

Yet, when God prevails over the wicked you call it evil and evil righteousness.

"For the Lord spoke thus to me with His strong hand [upon me], and warned and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying, 'Do not call conspiracy [or hard, or holy] all that this people will call conspiracy [or hard, or holy]; neither be in fear of what they fear, nor [make others afraid and] in dread. The Lord of hosts-regard Him as holy and honor His holy name [by regarding Him as your only hope of safety], and let Him be your fear and let Him be your dread [lest you offend Him by your fear of man and distrust of Him].'" Isaiah 8:11-13

Someone prayed to avert a catastrophe, which the Lord allowed one of His children to see beforehand. That catastrophe was halted by God's hand, and that which saves you, you call evil! And would you also curse the one who prayed for intervention?

For that very reason, I will not expose the faithful to the wolves so that they may tear the sheep apart.

Nor will I come in through these gates for the enemy dwells within.

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), November 07, 2001.


Stephanie, if I'm reading your post correctly, you're saying that the increased security at airports is averting catastrophe so it's OK. I was just wondering where you would draw the line. Let's say that the government decides, in the name of averting catastrophe, to issue everyone in the country a national ID number. That would make weeding out terrorists easier, wouldn't it? And let's say that the government further decides that to prevent counterfeiting of the ID cards, they are going to use a permanent tattoo or an implantable chip instead. All in the name of national security of course. Would you go along with it?

I'm not sure if the New Age Witch comment was directed toward me or not, but FWIW I'm not a New Age Witch, I'm a Celtic Reconstructionist Druid. :)

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), November 07, 2001.


Good grief..........when all else fails let's just call names and quote scriptures. What ever happened to intelligent discussion??

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 07, 2001.

Stephanie, I don't understand what EXACTLY you are saying...? Are you saying that the detaining of a Green Party leader by the National Guard is the hand of God protecting us? And if you are accusing me of being deceived by "what" in non general manner is the deception? If I say that we are to stand and represent the very dignity and forthrightness that this country was founded upon, based upon Biblical laws, how am I deceived?

Honestly, I don't get what the differentiation in respect to people being allowed to travel when they are non violent has to with hand of the Lord at all. I see the detaining of a citizen for differing veiwpoints as criminal and an induction of the Police State, which is directly in opposition to God.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 07, 2001.


Sorry Joe, I disagree with you.(surprise) There are other sets of morals but they are not perfectly good and some sets of morals have no goodness to them at all. The ONLY set of morals that are perfect are those spelled out in the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible. Can we follow these rules perfectly? No, we can't, but we can try to do our best.

Do I want to go back to the environmental polutions of the 60s? No way! I remember the number of birth defects, dead and poisonous waterways, many which are still heavily contaminated, turds and toilet paper washing up on the beaches...you remember the picture? But the Green movement has outlasted it's positive usefulness. Long ago they went from protecting the creation to worshipping the creation instead of the creator. We have our environmental laws that keep greedy corporations from killing our children, we have the EPA to force corporations to clean up their messes. The Green's job has been done, but they want more, they want political power over you and I and over our privately owned land and private enterprise.

I live in a state that the greens passed a "water conservation" law to put meters on privately owned wells so they can keep track of "aquafer depletion". Of course, they want us well owners to pay for installation and meter readers and one more agent claiming "right of easement" into our private property. Do ya think they would accept a bill from me for the 13 feet of rain a year I get that restores the aquafers?

Joe, you and I have more in common than we have in differences, but I don't think you've gotten off the farm much in the past 20 year. :) I think you need to stop listening to leftwing rhetoric and start watching their feet. Then you will see where they are going. Can't you see that the Green stink on this issue is to attack private enterprise? The Greens have never before been interested in human rights unless they can manipulate it for self serving purposes.

On this particular issue, you are confusing privately owned business (we reserve the right to refuse service...) with public transportation routes. They are not the same thing. As I have family in the frequent flyer club and I wish to continue to fly, I certainly don't want some idiot who won't cooperate with new security measures getting on the plane with unarmed me and mine.

Sherri, I read about that journalist last week. It started when he took pictures of a National Guardsman who for personal reasons, did not want his picture taken. Yeah, it got out of hand, and it was stupid, but he is not banned from travelling. He is being refused service from 1 particular airline. What the security personnel did to this guy is what made other passengers not want to travel with him.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.


"But the Green movement has outlasted it's positive usefulness"

I disagree. I think the movement is needed now more then ever. While it is true that we have made defintie progress in the environmental arena, we cannot afford to become lax about it. With population growth and resource depletion ever increasing, this is becoming more than a matter of saving a few trees, fish or birds. Our quality of life and even our very existence as a species is at stake.

Take a look at this URL to get a glimpse of where we might be headed if we as a species do not change our ways. I warn you, it's not pretty. The URL about sums it up:

http://www.dieoff.org

"We have our environmental laws that keep greedy corporations from killing our children, we have the EPA to force corporations to clean up their messes"

That is true, BUT, there is no guarantee that they will always be there. Especially when the aforementioned corporations are feverishly lobbying our politicians to cut funding and the basically gut the EPA. Make no mistake about it, our environmental laws are under attack, and the corporations behind it would dearly love to return us to the Bad Ol' Days of the '60's.

"Someone prayed to avert a catastrophe, which the Lord allowed one of His children to see beforehand. That catastrophe was halted by God's hand, and that which saves you, you call evil! And would you also curse the one who prayed for intervention?"

Stephanie, are you so sure that a catastrophe WAS averted? The URL I gave above describes a catastrophe looming that would make Sept.11 look like small potatoes, yet it seems very few of us are even trying to do anything about THAT. Believe me, terrorism is actually the least of our worries. Something much worse is coming. The Great Tribulation is at hand.

I know many of you want complete freedom. Sadly, that freedom is just an illusion. Police states notwithstanding, the Laws of Cause and Effect still bind us. Always have, always will.

"The ONLY set of morals that are perfect are those spelled out in the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible."

Actually, many of the world's religions actually have the same morals, even if their wording might be a little different. The laws of morality are pretty much understood in cultures the world over. The cultures that do not follow them eventually end up destroying themselves. Moreover, almost ALL to them acknowledges the existence of the Creator. Keep to the teachings of the Bible, for they do contain wisdom, but keep in mind that others may have had their own revelations and that they too, may have that wisdom, even if the wording may differ.

As I said in another forum, I admit my inability to grasp the Absolute Truth, so I take what little I know for certain and make my way the best I can.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), November 07, 2001.


Ya know, all of us here have had some serious exchanges regarding the truth...except for Nexar. I maintain that there is only one TRUTH, and that is unshakeable. There are things that we will never agree upon...sad, but true. I don't think that bringing up issues such as feminism, population or the environment are germane to a person getting on a plane. If she was indeed spiteful and refusing the searches required by these new restrictions, then she was rightfully denied passage. If she was denied passage because her political views are not the ones that the government wants to be popular with the masses at the moment, then it is a gross miscarriage of service. The airline industry really is a form of public conveyance, and with all the airports being federally funded the airlines are indeed much more of a utility than a private enterprise, and they cannot deny passage based on purely political sentiment, they can rightfully deny passage for security reasons.

Having said all that, Stephanie, I really didn't intend to smash you at all. I respect your opinions, and find it strange actually to be in such disagreement with you. I am trying hard to understand the original leaning of your position. I do not agree with the Green Party politics at all, although I do believe that we are to take good care of the Lord's creation. We are NOT to worship IT. Period. There is a huge difference between caring for and worshipping something, and this is a line that no one bought by the blood of Jesus Christ will cross. I hope that you will continue posting here, Stephanie...God bless.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 07, 2001.


hey Nexar does that mean you are stumbling around like a blind man?

-- Just Duckie (Duck@spazmail.com), November 07, 2001.

Doreen, I can't agree that there is only one "truth" and "that's it".

As our knowledge base increases, we learn that many things that we thought were "true" were not. Every new technology teaches us this.

Of course, many things are relatively unshakeably true. The sun will rise in the morning, we're all going to die, someday, infinite growth in a finite environment is impossible, and so forth.

We, as a species, used to think that the Earth was the center of the universe. This belief was "true" in its day; there were major fights about it when Copernicus demonstrated why he believed that the Earth rotated around the Sun. It majorly pissed off the great religious thinkers of his day.

Not all that long ago, the majority of people who even thought about it thought that the earth was flat. Few people believe that anymore.

I personally believe we need to judge ourselves, our universe, etc by the ever changing, ever growing knowledge base generated by all the great thinkers, mathematicians, physicists, etc. and act accordingly. I know you disagree with me on this, and that's fine. I just think that a person claiming that his/her personally accepted religious dogma is the only truth in the universe is rather jingoistic, and self limiting. But that's a person's right, praise _________(enter the god of your choice)

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 07, 2001.


Nope, just focusing and walking toward the light, and trying to ignore the phantasms swirling all about. Though I am not an everyday Bible-reader, I do know enought to get the gist of what it's saying. Just stick to the important stuff, like following the commandments and being good to one another, and leave the details to Jesus and the Creator.

Also, you're assuming that I worship the Earth itself as you accuse Greens of doing. I do not. I revere the Power BEHIND the creation of the Earth and the Cosmos.

It is wrong to place the Creation above the Creator, but still, by my reckoning, it's still better than claiming to serve the Creator, then turning around to stomp all over His Commandments and spit upon his Creation. The former group is merely deluded, while the latter is clearly contemptous. Which is better? Which is worse? Deluded or contemptous?

It is unfortunate that some automatically write off someone who disagrees with some of their views as evil (ESPECIALLY in regards to religion). It is a waste, really, because it can and does alienate those who would otherwise might sympathize with them.

Well, enough of that. Back to the topic.

As for that Green Party offical, I don't know her history. There may be cause for the search, then again, there may not have. If she didn't have anything to hide, she would have no reason to refuse the search, though, if I were her, I would still have been somewhat offended by the implications of the search. Still though, it's nothing personal. Better to inconvience a few innocents than let a terrorist complete his dastardly deed.

So far I see no indication from this incident that we are truly in a Police State now, but I do see it as a sign of potential trouble, especially if the frequency of the incidents increases. This could be nothing, but it could also be a sign of trouble ahead. Keep your eyes open.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), November 07, 2001.


BTW, Duckie, I am offended by your blind man remark. I, actually, can see much, and what I see troubles me deeply.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), November 07, 2001.

(SIGH) Jump Off Joe, you just don't get it. Those of us who FOLLOW the One True God and hold HIS WORD as TRUTH hold this standard for everything to be measured against. In this book, is the Knowledge of GOD, and He is unchanging, HE IS THE WORD AND THE WORD IS TRUTH. We may not like the truth any more than you do but we do not deny its existance.

The liberal heathen (human) intellect is based on the ignorance of man. It is relative and changing because men constanly find out how ignorant they really are. Is that really a moral compass or a life system? Ignorance? Moral relativism is a self centered human flaw. In fact, many passages of the Bible address how deceitful and wicked the human heart really is. There are also many passages that about how human intellect is nothing but foolishness that results in death.

You see, Joe, MY TRUTH, as stated in the Bible tells me I get outta here alive, that there may come a day when the sun does not rise, (I need to look that one up) but no where in my Truth does over population destroys the earth. My Truth clearly states that idolatry and other abominations is what causes civilizations to fall and lands to be desolated.

Sometimes, Joe, I think you took those 70's college professors too seriously. They were so full of B.S!

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.


BTW Nexar, If you think people who worship a rock are better off than any of God's chosen ones, then you missed the gist of the Bible altogether.

-- Just Duckie (Duck@spazmail.com), November 07, 2001.

God's Chosen, eh? Just WHAT makes you think that you are chosen?? On what grounds do you presume to possess God's favor??

I stand by what I said, except you just do not seem to get it. Making no claim to follow God at all is INFINITELY better than claiming to follow God, then turning around and spitting on his teachings behind His back. Does becoming a Christian give you a license to behave like an @$$?? NO!! If you believe that it does then you DO deserve to burn.... Those that claims to be God's Chosen and then turn around and spit on God's Word are not Chosen at all. If anything, they are damned.

"but no where in my Truth does over population destroys the earth."

That is because Jesus is supposed to return and save humanity and the earth before that point is reached. If you are right, then he will, but as it stands I believe in hedging my bets. As someone who has grown up in the country, I have witnessed firsthand the effects of overpopulation in regards to other members of the animal kingdom. Overcrowding has always led to dieoffs due to starvation and disease, always, be it cattle, mice, rabbits, or deer. Why should it not apply to humans as well?

Admittedly, humans are a special case. Due to innovations in agriculture and medicine, humans have been able to create conditions in which it was possible to multiply to numbers far beyond what would be considered normal for a species of that size. Now, I put forth this question. Even now, scientists are trying to stay one step ahead of the hunger problem. How long will it be before our population reaches numbers so huge that our innovations begin to fail us? I have heard reports on good authority that that time is not far off.

Jesus foretold such a time coming. Want to see what a global human dieoff looks like? Then just wait until the Last Days (which I believe, given the evidence, is but a few years away) then you'll see for yourself. You believe the we are living in the Last Days, we are not as of yet. What we see going on around us now are just warning signs of things to come. You think that what's happening now is bad? You haven't seen ANYTHING yet!

Jesus knows that we as a species will not take the neccessary measures to head off such a catastrophe. That's why He is going to come again, to rescue those people that are worth saving from the fruits of their fellows' stupidity.

If your Bible is correct, the world will not be destroyed by overpopulation because Jesus WILL NOT ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN.

I just hope that you and your Bible are right....

PS: I know full well the wickedness of the human heart. The evidence is everywhere. I also understand though that the human heart also has tendency to twist the interpretation of God's Word into something that it wants to hear, not necessarily the Truth.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), November 08, 2001.


Gosh this a discussion i would really like to get into, but having been pretty ill the last few days I just don't have the strength yet. As to the original post, here is my opinion. IF this woman was really detained because of here political affiliations then that is real bad for all of us. IF though, she was using the radical left's newest trick and making a general nuisance of herself in order to draw attention to whatever cause she supports as seen at the Republican national convention and WTO demonstrations where people intentionally tore up Seattle Washington, then she deserved everything she got and more. It's one thing to actually have your rights violated and complain, but it's another to act like an idiot and then cry wolf. To be honest I don't trust this woman as far as I can throw her.

The remainder I will address when I feel like a human again.

Little bit farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 08, 2001.


JOJ: Surprise, surprise, I actually agree with Doreen when she sez there's only one truth but where I depart from that agreement is I'm convinced beyond doubt that it can be found in the bible and lotsa other scriptures too---the same truths expressed in different words for different peoples in different times and places.

Nexar----I like the way you think. Perhaps another way of expressing the RTH worship vs creator worship is we can worship the creator by caring for the creation. Its pretty obvious the earth has a carrying capacity and the dieoff WILL occur when the carrying capacity is exceeded by the inhabitants. To me thats simple common sense. As far as I know there's no place in the bible that discourages us from using our own God given wisdom and intelligence in a proactive way to prevent predictable problems in the future.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 08, 2001.


Yup! Nexar missed the entire gist of the Holy Bible.

-- Just Duckie (Duck@spazmail.com), November 08, 2001.

First of Nexar, nobody can do anything behind God's back and to think that you can is just stupid. The Holy Bible calls for good stewardship of the earth and lays down specific instructions for what that means. I have never seen cattle die of overpopulation. I HAVE seen them die from mismanagement. I will assume you were not accusing me of using my faith and world view as a license for lawlessness against God and his creation, because you don't know me. As far as deserving to burn, guess what? The penalty of sin is death and we ALL fall short of the Glory of the Lord. We ALL deserve to burn for our sins.

What makes me think I am one of God's chosen? Well, that would also be His Word. The Bible says that He chose me before I could choose Him.

Can you actually teach me truth on some new revelation of prophecy from the Holy Bible? I think not. You do not display any understanding of God's Word as written in His Bible. Perhaps instead of ranting your drivel you should go read it again especially if you choose to attempt intelligent conversation regarding God's Word, God's people, God's creations or God's grace or God's plan for his people. If you just want to bash Christians, there are plenty of forums in cyberland just for that purpose. May I suggest Christianity General at About.com I think it is the leading medium for bait and bash.

I better 'hope' my Bible is right? I KNOW it is right. I have nothing to lose by knowing it is TRUTH. Folks like you are hoping it is wrong. That's a loser bet, dude, and it ain't like you never heard Truth.

John, rat poison is 95% nutritious sweet grain it is that 5% poison that kills ya. The God of Abraham, the God of the bible is the only True. He is the ONLY one who offers the remission of sins and everlasting life. and John, don't feed the wildlife, it makes them obnoxious.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.


Laura, SIGH!!!; I think the problem is that I DO "get it". You say, "Those of us who FOLLOW the One True God and hold HIS WORD as TRUTH..." OK, that's fine. Fine for YOU, and the others who believe in YOUR truth. My point being that YOUR truth is not THE truth, just because BELIEVE it to be. You can try to prove that YOUR truth is THE truth all day long, by quoting the bible. Quoting the Bible to prove the bible seems bit nonsensical, in terms of proving ANYTHING, however, to anyone who is not already convinced of the bible's infallibility.

As far as "many passages that about how human intellect is nothing but foolishness...", there's a certain amount of truth to that, but again, it's all relative. Certainly SOME people's intellects are not up to the standards of others', and I suspect there are other creations on other planets whose intellects would make ours look especially foolish. But if you truly believe that human intellect in GENERAL is foolishness, why are you even bothering to converse on this forum?

You assertg that "many passages of the Bible address how deceitful and wicked the human heart really is..." Is this how your heart is, Laura? Mine's not. Although I certainly cannot claim to be a saint, I do try my best to act with honesty and compassion. My credo is the golden rule, wherever that came from (I first read it on a ruler in grade school). I always try to treat people the way I would like to be treated. I don't have to be a member of your particular religion, or your particular sect in order to live a gracious life.

BTW, I never took any 70's college professors too seriously. I had become a serious skeptic WAY before the 70's. Also finished college WAY before the 70's. Methinks perhaps YOU take all those bible teahers too seriously! They are no less full of BS than the college professors, I'm sure. There are bullshit slingers in both professions, I'm sure. I have statistics that college professors have sex with their young charges 36.443% less often than youth counsellors, for instance. I recall only that ministers in general were somewhere in between those other categories.

Regarding overpopulation, you say, "no where in my Truth does over population destroys the earth". First of all, I would be quite surprised if there WERE any reference to this in the bible, since the bible was written when the population of the earth was a tiny fraction of the population now. On the other hand, did the bible say that it was HUNKY DORY to overpopulate the planet? Is there some passage we've all missed which says, "keep right on cranking out kids, regardless of how large the population gets, regardless of whether we destroy the planet in the process, regardless of the suffering, illness, starvation which results from the inability to keep it zipped?

Please answer in short, simple sentences. I am so foolish I won't understand you otherwise.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 08, 2001.


I forget exactly which verse it was (As I said, I'm not a regular Bible reader, though I SHOULD look into it more) but there was a verse that went to the tune of: "Be fruitful and multiply. And spread across the Earth and subdue it".

I believe we have accomplished that objective long ago, but now we're carrying it way too far.

And Laura, I am the son of farmer so I KNOW what I'm talking about. Overpopulation IS one of the results of mismanagement, and any farmer worth his salt knows full well the results of trying to raise more animals than he can feed. The reason you never saw a cattle dieoff due to overpopulation is because the none of the cattle raisers you were exposed to were stupid enough to let it happen. You are right in a sense. Dieoffs occur because of mismanagement, and at the current time, human race has been doing a piss poor job of managing itself.

"Folks like you are hoping it is wrong. "

You cannot be any more wrong! I am NOT denying the truth of the Bible here. What I'm am saying is that the truth is spread out farther than you think. The fact that there is only ONE Creator is beyond question. All of us worship the same God, the only differences are those of perspective.

"rat poison is 95% nutritious sweet grain it is that 5% poison that kills ya"

Yep, Laura, and I hate to break the bad news to ya, but you are the one that ingested the poison. That poison is called Intolerance. You assume, that because some people do not think exactly the same way you do, that they somehow are your enemies. And don't think for a moment that this disease is exclusive to "Christians". I have met and heard tell of many, many others in other religions that share the same flaw. You are looking for enemies where there are none, while alienating potential allies in the process. This is just what the Evil One wants you to do. I bet that he is laughing at you right now.

As for Duckmeister, don't you have anything constructive to say?!? If you do not then ZIP IT!

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), November 08, 2001.


"The Bible says that He chose me before I could choose Him."

Where does it say that? Enlighten me.

"Can you actually teach me truth on some new revelation of prophecy from the Holy Bible?"

No, I cannot, because I have nothing new. The prophecy is in there. I have been doing as Jesus instructed, watching the signs, and as I do the picture is coming into focus.

"Perhaps instead of ranting your drivel you should go read it again especially if you choose to attempt intelligent conversation regarding God's Word, God's people, God's creations or God's grace or God's plan for his people. If you just want to bash Christians, there are plenty of forums in cyberland just for that purpose."

Just who is bashing who here? Who is writing off other's opinions as "drivel"? You accuse me of bashing Christians, but it seems to me here that it is the self-professed "Christian" doing the bashing here. You know who I'm talking about. Did Jesus talk like you just did when He spread the Gospel? Did he dismiss the doubts and opinions of others as drivel and call them stupid? If Jesus behaved in such a manner then I will nothing to do with him! There is a big difference between saying someone is wrong and accusing him of being stupid. I believe you just did the latter.

Tell me that I'll burn in Hell if you want to. It does not matter, because that is for God to decide, not you.

If all you are going to do is call me stupid and dismiss my views as drivel, then we have nothing left to discuss.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), November 08, 2001.


Yeah, Joe, I realized after I posted that I missed your college years by a decade. They were teaching that slop then and they are still teaching it now. College was by far the preferred choice for intelligent young men in the 60s. I am also aware that perverts are everywhere and especially like to hide in positions of trust and under the cover of organized religion.

I do not consider you to be so foolish beyond redemption. I think you are a very smart man and can teach us all quite a bit about many things. So many of your world views seem to be verbatim press releases from the UN propaganda machine. That is puzzling to me because you do seem so much smarter than that and I would think you would research all sides to the issues.

I do have a real problem with relative morality and an ever changing standard. This Oden watermelon is a fine example of "relative morality." When she and her buddies do the things that they do that violate other peoples' rights and sometimes endanger innocent lives with their terrorist activities, they claim to be motivated by a "higher morality" But then to claim a personal rights violation where there was none because of security procedures designed to protect hundreds on the plane and thousands on the ground. Well, this is the kind of relative morality that is self serving. The watermelons don't give hoot about personal civil rights when they terrorize children and threaten to bomb their homes. And they certainly were not interested in my freedom of speech when I put up a 4 x 8 billboard on private property.---NUKE THE GAY WHALES FOR JESUS-- - Can you see my point? If it is moral to abort your unborn child because it is "not a good time" is it also moral to to throw your toddler in a fire to bring prosperity to yourself? Ever changing relative morality is not immune to the laws of gravity, it flows downhill and eventually ends up in the gutter. Just like all mankind's agendas, it always goes to the lowest common denominater. I don't think you want to live there any more than I do.

No, I can't "prove" anything quoting the Bible. The only proof I have is my life and God's blessings. I cannot prove to you the freedom I have when I wake in the morning and I don't have to decide what my daily morals are going to be. I do not have the curse of agonizing whether I should kill my children. I can demonstrate to you that every time we converse, I will be working from the same set of life rules and they won't be changing on you.

Please forgive me when I slip and say something quite human and nasty. I do try to respect your views and understand them.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.


Laura says........."When she and her buddies do the things that they do that violate other peoples' rights and sometimes endanger innocent lives with their terrorist activities, they claim to be motivated by a "higher morality" But then to claim a personal rights violation where there was none because of security procedures designed to protect hundreds on the plane and thousands on the ground. Well, this is the kind of relative morality that is self serving."

Sorry Laura but I think this is pretty heavy judgment from someone who has a cop killer for a hero. How is that for relative morality??? I knew that I had some differences of opinion with you, but I really usually take what you say with a grain of salt. But you know, my son- in-law is a cop who has had to deal with your militia heros and I can tell you they are pros at indangering inocent lives and terrorizing people here in Michigan.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 08, 2001.


UUUHHHMMMMMM.......I have a cop killer hero? I don't think so! As I was not present during the Cooper confrontation, I do not know what happened except 2 people were shot ane one is dead. It still smells like a set up gone bad. I enjoyed reading Mr. Cooper's written articles. None of the articles I read had anything to do with militia, nor do I hold anyone to a hero status. I do not follow man and I am not a part of the Christian Patriot movement or any other militia and I have many cops in my family. I do not condone murder whether it is a cop, a baby or an Afgahni. So what are you talking about?

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

Militia Figure Killed After Shooting Tuesday, November 6, 2001 Last updated at 7:43:42 PM PT By EDUARDO MONTES ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

PHOENIX -- A wanted militia figure who vowed that he would never be taken alive was killed by a law enforcement officer after he shot a sheriff's deputy trying to arrest him, authorities said Tuesday.

I had never heard of this Cooper guy......you posted this article. Was it a lie that he was a militia figure??? I sure wouldn't post an article about someone like this if I didn't think he was something special. Maybe hero was to strong a word?? Don't know but I can sure tell you that I don't care for some of what the Green party does or would I vote for them, but this kind of guy I have in my neighborhood and they hate us, the Amish, the African Americans and any one else that isn't just like them and I sure would not care to meet them on the road at night alone.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 09, 2001.


UMMMMMMM! Cooper was a very strongly opinionated and angry guy. I don't think it was terribly wise for the police to come to his home undercover, unmarked, then lure him off the property, then try to block his reentry to his drive.He drove around it, having only one leg,(which I understand he lost in the service of this country in one of our non declared wars) ran to his door, was told to halt turned and shot a deputy in the head twice, another cop came around the corner of his house and shot him inumerable times. Cooper was NOT a militia leader, the MILITIA is indeed in a constitutional definition, any able bodied male between the age of 17 and 40.

Militias have been seriously demonized. Some of the folks in militias are jerks, and some are not. As far as being afraid of them, I actually fear the police more, because they get to be jack booted thugs with impunity and have the habit of acting more like a a gang than the Crips do. I know one decent cop....I know 10 who were cops that quit because of the corruption: 1 in Florida, 3 in Jersey, 4 in California, 2 in Illinois. Strange, huh? Oh, btw, 4 of them are not in militias, but if articles ever are written about them they will be "militia leadrers" like Cooper. lol.....sigh.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 09, 2001.


This thread started out as an interesting topic..............how did it end up like this? Guess I'll work in the barn.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

Laura, I'm not sure how you came by the belief that "They were teaching that slop then and they are still teaching it now". How many colleges have you attended to make such a broad statement?

I've attended quite a few myself (Colorado State, Southern Methodist, Texas Tech, Dallas College, Rogue Community College-my favorite-and Humboldt State). At all of these schools I found many excellent teachers, and many mediocre ones. I fortuantely found VERY few who were so closed minded that they preached only dogma. One, a chemistry prof at RCC actually spent more time preaching the gospel than teaching chemistry, or so I'm told by his students. He also practically blew a fuse when he walked in on my wife's figure drawing class! :)

I find it somewhat cosmic that my "world views seem to be verbatim press releases from the UN propaganda machine".

Where would I locate such a machine? Is there such a thing, really? To tell you the truth, the only time I can remember reading ANYTHING published by the UN was recently, when I was reading some history and recent decisions of the "world court". I didn't think they were propaganda, though. I thought they were merely very instructive, vis a vis our current quagmire in the middle east, and our recent debacles in other areas of the world, and how the UN Secrity council member states reacted to our behavior. It didn't really affect our actions much, though, since we were able to veto any actions proposed by the rest of the world through this medium.

As a matter of fact, I DO research as many sides as I can on all issues I think are important. Just because you may not like the conclusions I make does not mean I have only researched one side!

Seriously, I would be most interested in learning the whereabouts of the propaganda machine you mentioned. Does the UN have their own newletter or something???

I also am at a loss as to why you seem to think I said something about "relative morality". I never said that. I objected to your claim of knowledge and practice of "the ultimate truth".

As far as the "watermellon", I am clueless as to what you're talking about! What has this Oden person (someone I never even heard of before right before I posted this article, which by the way was aimed at freedom to travel, not promoting one or another party (I'd have been equally incensed had the person who was kept from flying been of any other political party or mindset)

What is it that Oden has done which has gotten her so high on your shit list? Has she actually made some claim to "higher morality", as you claim? Has she really threatened to bomb buildings?

Is your example of killing babies analagous to another analogy which says that drinking one glass of wine (immoral in many chrisian religions) leads to blowing up airplanes? It makes as much sense, as I see it. You have to avoid over generalizing like that, IMHO>

Did you really put up a billboard which said, "NUKE THE GAY WHALES FOR JESUS"? I LOVE IT! We always say that, but we say it to mimic people's intolerance and overgeneralization. It's sort of like "I cook my spotten owls in Exxon Oil", which is popular bumper sticker in this (formerly) major timber production area.

As a scientist, I have a natural skepticism. I am skeptical that "Ever changing relative morality is not immune to the laws of gravity, it flows downhill and eventually ends up in the gutter." Perhaps we should do some empirical experiment to prove or disprove that assertion.

I am sure that there are more than enough people who use their morals in a way that is very bad--even evil sometimes--but I also have a more optimistic view, which is that most people are basically good, but sometimes weak, and unable to do what they know is right. For instance, look at the WTC. So many people rushedo out and gave blood that the ARC had to ask them to stop! This is not the work of bad people, and I assure you that it was not just the work of any one religion!

You may not believe this, Laura, but even I, the great moral waffler that you think I am, do not wake up either wondering what my morals should be for the day OR wondering if I should kill my children. Duh. I suspect our morals, on most levels at least, are about the same. What I consider to be changing truths are more earthly issues, for the most part. An example: for several years, I was a Forest Service employee, doing hydrologic studies, and working with streams and fish. We used to go around chainsawing or dynamiting log jams out of rivers and creeks to "improve fish passages". The need for this was a "truth" in the world of fisheries biologists.

Then, one year, we were told that this "truth" was an error. We were told that the log jams, and other large woody debris, was actually a benefit to the fish, providing cool water, spawning gravel, and hiding places. So we were ordered to start falling virgin growth timber into the streams and anchoring it down, to replace the trees we'd removed. I refused, because I thought it to be a stupid practice. My point was? hmm. Oh, yeah. Truths change. I could give you hundreds of examples of why one shouldn't hold onto their "truths" so tightly that they can't recognize when a mistake has been made.

I do forgive you; for one thing I love your moniker!

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 09, 2001.


{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}} all around!!

I heard an interveiw with Oden last night, and I will post another thread on that as soon as I get a chance. I will say I was very impressed with the lady.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 09, 2001.


Cool, Doreen, hugs to you!

I'd like to hear about the interview, but, alas, will not be able to access the computer for a few days. It's a political thing.

Maybe I'll be able to find something about it on some news site or other right now.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 09, 2001.


i've never been cyber hugged before. it lacks something over the real thing. joj

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 09, 2001.

JOJ: Watermelon is green on the outside and red(commie) on the inside.

I think the truths "they" were referring to were the "absolute" truths compared to the relative or temporal truths but they can speak for themselves.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 09, 2001.


Dear Laura,

I hope that you can forgive me for my cop killer remark. It was over the top even for emotional me. It is very evident to me that you have had ugly experiences with a cell of the "Greens" as I have with a cell of the "militia".

I have checked the Detroit Free Press archives in hopes of finding where my little backwoods community made the front page back a few years, but it was before they started computer archiving. There were several pictures of the spray painted racist obscenities on my neighbors homes and a rather large article on our fences cut and dogs shot and poisoned. It was the most horrifying experience of my life to here people out there that I knew were my neighbors doing bad things and we didn't even have a phone to call the police. They came at night, the middle of the night, knowing that none of us were armed or had phones. I believe that the unending stress caused to our dear Amish friend and neighbor directly was the cause of his heart attack and death.

They, the particular cell of militia I am refering to, are gone now. They disappeared and sold their farms right afer the OKC bombing. I know that there are some organized militias that are not like these people and I should not generalize.

Again, please forgive my unkind remarks if you can and peace to you and your family.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 10, 2001.


Here are some of my thoughts as I was reading this thread. I am quoting the pertinent phrases so look for the quotes in case this thread gets compressed. The starred comments are mine.

"Steph - Come on now - Which is it. Are greens Commies or are they Socialist's. What is wrong with being for feminism? Are you against that? Think your point out before you post. "

** Actually there is very little difference between a communist and a socialist. Both take away individual rights in favor of the masses. Both are totalitarian in nature. Unfortuantely the Green party is not the only party we find these philosophies in, but they definitely do exhibit all the characteristics of a wannabe totalitarian party.

"I am sorry Stephanie, I don't believe that disagreeing with someone is flaming them. Perhaps I don't understand flaming. No one has called you names or questioned your intelligence or anything drastic. Just did not agree with you. "

** I agree with Diane here. This is just a lot of people exercising their right to free speech. This is an argument of ideas.

"To Stephanie who said this, I really hope you not knocking this. If it were not for feminism, you may well have been still considered little more than property today. Just look at the situation of those women in Afghanistan to get a glimpse of what happens to women in a society that has carried patriarchy too far. "

** To this I say balogna. The true feminist movement didn't get moving until the sixties. My grandmother's were never considered property. Give me a break. The modern feminist movement does however bear the responsibility for many other things like:

1)Children who have no mothers OR fathers in residence eight to ten hours a day. 2) The fact that women have been convinced it is OK to kill their own babies. 3) The fact that little babies who should be nursing still are being dumped off at care facilities across the nation. 4) The elevation of the Woman to heights of selfishness that defy the imagination. And a whole list of others.

Also another person, I believe that it was jump-off Joe said that he thought it was useless to quote the Bible to prove the bible. I got to thinking about this comment and realized that I completely understood that perspective. It would seem strange to someone that doesn't believe in God or his Word. The thing is, you see, as a Christian we believe that God speaks through his Word. To us it doesn't matter what we have to say only what He has to say. Ultimately a Christian will always use the Word of God in order to support what we believe is truth, because we believe He is Truth. It matters not to us what others believe is truth only what God says through His Word is truth. Ultimately all of us believe in the Truth. JOJ believes he can find truth is science. Nexar believe there are many avenues to truth. I believe that the only truth is the God of the Bible. So basically we all believe there is Truth. We just don't believe that it is the same thing. To say that we are single minded is true. For when it comes to truth, not the truth that we believe, but actual truth, there is no middle ground. It either is or it isn't. So the very fact that we believe that what we believe is truth, means that each of us must stand for our own belief of the truth. It is true, Christians especially us unmoldable fundamentalist Christians hold fast to our beliefs and exclude those who do not. If not in word, then in deed. This is natural when you truly believe that God is truth. But all of you, like it or not hold to your truth as well. Even Nexar who says that there are many paths to truth is holding to his own belief of truth as well. Your are all just as unmoldable as we Christians are. You just don't like to admit it. As a Christian, I believe, in fact I know that I know that I know that the God of the bible is the one and only true God. I understand that in saying I know I upset some. JOJ says, but how do you know? Give me some piece of scientific evidence I can test in a controlled environment. I say, I am sorry, God gave you a whole world to live on. He gave you the very science you worship, and yet you say you cannot see him. How dare you say you know, they say. I dare I say because the evidence is clear. It is before your eyes everyday in the form of God's creation. But what about my truth they say. How do you dare to say you know? I dare, because I do. I know. Believe it or not. Nevertheless I know that the God of the Bible is real. Does it help to declare me a fundamentalist? Does it help to say I am radical? Does it help to say I am missing the truth. Nope! I know that the God of the Bible is real. Nothing, absolutely nothing you can say can change or alter that. How rigid, they say. I say, Yep!!! If I wasn't then I wouldn't believe. I wouldn't know, but I do. "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 12, 2001.


LB, you say, " Nothing, absolutely nothing you can say can change or alter that." I already knew that was how you think. I suspect that you would refuse to belive the evidence if god himself came up to you and told you that something you believed was incorrect. tsk.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 12, 2001.


Okay, I'm back.

Diane, of course I forgive you. I was never mad and I don't hold grudges, life is just too short. Misunderstanings happen all the time, especially in this format. I posted the William Cooper article because I received a private email asking me to. I am so sorry that you had a terrorizing experience with creeps that called themselves militia. People and groups can call themselves anything they want, but you gotta watch the feet to see who they really are. We have a local militia here, too, but most of these guys wear a badge and uniform to work.

Joe, I was the parent/instuctor in charge of the homeschool group that put up NUKE THE GAY WHALES FOR JESUS billboard on the road to Neah Bay, the Makah reservation. It was a unit study of graphic arts, spelling, reality civics and sociology. That slogan is the best for insulting everyone and it was a very successful study even if the sign didn't last very long.

A side note about the Watermelons coming to my neighborhood and creating havoc is that the military used that opportunity to move massive quantities of equipment, supplies and personnel to an out of the way location out there. It has just been the past month that it came out there is a new Air Force installation there and uniforms are actually being seen in the community. We were speculating at the time all the "National Guard" stuff coming into the area and it never left. We did ask ouselves, "If they are here to protect the Indians, why are they going up the Hoko river?"

My intolerance, Joe, is not because of my faith in Jesus Christ. It is more likely from growing up 40 miles from the nearest wide spot on the road and having the closest neighbers 13 miles away. I drove 50 miles one way to attend high school. I spent my entire life in the woods or on the farm and I liked it. My heritage is of woodsfolk, mountain men and farmers. The original homesteaders. The entire Green movement neglects the true conservationists and proven scientific evidence and dazzles the uneducated with emotionalism to push their marxist agenda. Almost everything the Greens do, is a direct attact on my way of life and my freedoms. Much of what the Greens are pushing is not environmentally sound, but quite destructive to the environment. It all sounds good to the Metrobots who only heard SAVE THE PLANET. What do the care? They don't live out here and they gave away much of their freedom already. By the way, 'they' want to stop the wind farms in California because it kills birds that fly into it.

As far as our rights ending? Yup, they are. Have been for a long time. Our prophets have been warning us for over 25 years of 9-11 and what follows. Wasn't it these prophecies that started the back to the land movement of the 70's? The party is over and life is not going back to the way it was.

Joe I can hardly believe that you worked for FS blowing up fish habitats! In some of the creeks, it took over 7 years before the fish and the crawdads came back. Talk about ENVIRO TERRORIST! :) Up here, the spotted owl population has been trained for kamikaze missions by the brains that are paid to count them. These people don't really want to go out in the rain and count owls so they put dead mice on the hood of the pick up and drive real slow and count owls when they swoop for the mice. They were doing this daily and it worked, the owls cleaned the mice off the pick up and the counters stayed dry. Unfortunately, spotted owls really can't tell the difference between a pick up rolling on idle and one going 60mph up hwy 101. The Endangered Species Act....How true!

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.


Joe, God himself did come to earth to tell you the way to eternal life. He also recorded his thoughts and desires for you both in thousands of years of documentation and also in His creation. Yet you don't believe. And you call me stubborn.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 13, 2001.


Joe, God himself did come to earth to tell you the way to eternal life. He also recorded his thoughts and desires for you both in thousands of years of documentation and also in His creation. Yet you don't believe. And you call me stubborn.

Little Bit Farm -- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 13, 2001.

Little bit, it is YOU whom I don't believe. I don't believe YOU when you say that god himself came here to tell ME the way to eternal life.

If my resistance to believe YOU, a mere reporter IMO, makes me stubborn, OH WELL.

I have yet to see god himself come here, talk to me, listen to me, or anything else. Just because YOU say he has does not make it so.

And yes, I've been told by you, and your ilk, that it is obvious that god made all the beautiful land around us. That's not obvious to me at all. It MAY be true; then again, it may be that Mother Nature made all this cool stuff. It MAY be that it is all a natural process of evolution which made the earth as it is, and we think it's beautiful because we happen to like it here.

I can't say who made the earth originally; neither can you. The part about evolution to its present form, however, is so obvious that one needs blinders to deny it. but let's don't get started on THAT.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 13, 2001.


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