It's been bugging me that Americans are getting down on our military for the accidental civilian deaths in Afghanistan! Hello, it's a WAR! There WILL be innocent people killed. Goes with the territory!Geez, have we forgotten why we're over there in the first place?! Not to mention that the Taliban kills civilians as a matter of policy, all the time...nor that other Afghan warriors kill innocents during the civil war(s) that are a fact of life over there, too. And what kind of government puts potential military targets in civilian neighborhoods, anyway?? I expect the folks who are being bombed to protest and object, but I hate hearing the U.S. being criticized by our very own people!

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), October 29, 2001

Answers

I think the reason everyone is making such a fuss is because the people over there have little to nothing to do with the people our military are after. Those people are practically bread to be brainwashed. They aren't allowed to read, so they don't know what is going on, they can't listen to the radio to get the real scope, and they only have one source of info, the Taliban, and they make sure the only info put out is for their own good. Propaganda.

You are right, this is war, and casualties are to be expected, however, With our military expertise and might, I guess the whole world expects us to be so precise that not even a fly gets killed accidentally.

It made me so mad when my husband was in Saudi 10 years ago, and after they got back, Elizabeth Dole was trying to raise money, via the Red Cross to send over the Iraq. Do we have to have a war stateside to get anyone interested in helping the homeless children here??? People's priorities are skewed, and in my opinion, never favor those who are doing something for the betterment of others.

It's funny how the Taliban are crying about the innocent lives lost over there, when they applauded for the lives lost here.

-- Wendy A (phillips-anteswe@pendleton.usmc.mil), October 29, 2001.

Respectfully I must admit that I cannot, as a Buddhist, and as an ethical and moral person, condone warfare for any, and all reasons. Even WWII had it's alternatives if done at the right time, and not after Hitler invaded Poland. Wars are best prevented, not waged.

So, if folks feel the need to feel pain and remorse at the cilivian casualties in Afghniatan, so be it, I wish they would write to their Congressmen/women also to let them know that war is not the answer additionally. War is Hell on Earth and solves nothing, an "Eye for an Eye Mentality" is both dated and ethically wrong.

There are non-violent alternatives for every conflict and disagreement if your reasoning is "evolved" enough to entertain such thoughts, so please do not throw that "If you love your country, you will be willing to give your life for it" crap up in us non-violent believers faces. Try thinking outside the box for a change.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 29, 2001.

Shannon, I totally agree with you on this one. We made that mistake when we were in Vietnam. We tiptoed around the civilians and everyone protested because "innocent" people were being killed even though those same "innocent" people were booby-trapping their own children to hand melons to unsuspecting GIs so they could be blown up when they reached to get the melons. If we don't, as a people, have the will to wage war, we should not attempt it. Trying to do a war half way is an invitation to defeat. If we plan all along to be defeated, why bother to have the war. We have to go in with the intent to fight the war to the best of our ability and if there are civilian casualties, that is the fallout of war. The terrorists must be stopped now or the whole world will be in jeopardy of being ruled by them in the future. That will be a whole lot worse for the innocents of the world than our current situation.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), October 29, 2001.

Annie, I totally agree with you. I'd also add that a part of me is very suspicious that the "real" reason behind this war is so that certain people could rule us all with an iron hand which could not be arranged for in any other way than to get the populace all stirred up in war fever. I'm really worried about this security bill and what is ALREADY HAS DONE TO OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS!

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), October 29, 2001.

These people HATE us, and whatever the reason, there is NO JUSTIFIABLE EXCUSE to killing thousands of defenseless, innocent people. They want us dead, all of us, that means you, and they will continue to attack us. Diplomacy will not work with these people. Their "god" is ordering them to kill us!! If we do not retaliate, they will coninue to attack us, and kill us. They have or are attempting to obtain, nuclear weapons!! War is hell, war is not desired, but there are times when there is no option. It is either lay down the sword and be killed, or pick it up and fight to save this country for our childeren.

-- Phyllis in the Texas Panhandle (tmblweed@wtrt.net), October 29, 2001.

I am concerned about my rights and privacy, too, but there is no logical thought process that comes up with the idea that the Taliban and al Quida flew those planes into the World Trade Center towers in order for our government to have an excuse to envoke more laws.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

It's not logical it's biblical. It is only one small part of prophecy that is being fulfilled. Watch and wait-you'll see. It is the "Great Controversy" before our very eyes.

-- Penny (drewbange@pa.net), October 29, 2001.

In my opinion, murder is murder. It doesn't really matter if it happens at the end of a large airplane as it enters a building full of people or at the end of an ink pen when an order for a political assassination is signed. Killing is the ultimate failure of humankind. Iris

-- Iris (Sar_India@msn.com), October 29, 2001.

Its about time that some other countries actively joined the U.S. led military operations in Afghanistan. Currently, its "The U.S. vs the Taleban". It should be "The World vs terrorism".

BTW, shielding military targets with civilians is more common than not in countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, ect. Life is cheap there, civilians are an effective shield and casualties are great for propaganda.

You should be proud that you see people object to almost everything in this country... people in many countries have no such rights.

-- Jake (Jake@home.com), October 29, 2001.

Shannon,

I pretty much agree with you on the casulties of the Afghan civilians. We have no way of knowing for sure what the number is , and of course the Taliban will inflate the number to try to get world synmpathy for their cause. This is a given. We all know that war has casulaties, but it does not mean that we should not engage in war. We are doing what we can to minimize civilian casualties. I think that is all we can do at this time.

We have suffered our own massive casualties, but this does not mean we should try to target civilians. We need to remove the people who caused these casulaties ,so they can not do the same thing to us again, or some other dastardly deed, such as anthrax.

It would have been easier to do something if we had not waited until 9-11. If more had been done after '93 attack on WTC we probably would not have this to deal with now. Unfortunately the previous administration almost ignored the issue hoping it would go away. But by not doing anything it only emboldened the perptrators of the obscene acts of 9-11. Chamberlin, from Britain, tried talking with Hitler in WW2, but we all know what his diplomacy led to in that circumstance. Millions of civilian deaths.

I can see where the "peace" movement is coming from. It would be ideal if it only worked. I may not agree with you much of the time, but I am glad you are allowed to speak your mind, just as I am. If you lived in Afghanistan or some other extreme totalitarian government you certainly would not be able to speak your mind as you can in this country. If you said those things in Afghanistan you would be executed or worse.

Many are paranoid about the government taking away our liberties. I guess I will have to plead somewhat guilty to that one. I know that during a war the media should not be able to report anything they want. It will only aid the enemy. I remember during the gulf war Saddam Hussein said that he got most of his information from watching CNN. A great tribute to CNN. I think not, they were compromising our troops by their reporting things that were about to happen. I am not in favor of censorship, unless it is for the sake of our troops.

We need to be vigilant about our rights disappearing, because they have been diminishing for years, a little at a time. Now it is just more apparent what is happening. Keep your eyes open and your mind clear.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

Don't criticize the military personnel with what is happening. If you don't like what is happening then contact your representatives. If you don't want to fight/defend this country then you should keep your mouth shut. If you can't keep your mouth shut then don't badmouth the military. If you want to badmouth the military then you should move to another country. Remember: If My Flag Offends You, Get Out Of My Country.

-- Mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

Speaking of humankind, did anyone see Independence Day, when aliens came to earth and were welcomed until they began destroying our cities on a large scale? We caught one and asked it what they wanted us to do. It said, "Die." When people, like the Taliban, only want for you to die and nothing else, and are willing to die themselves to see that you do, how can you defend yourself other than by wiping them off the face of the planet? I enjoy living and would just as soon keep on doing it, so just what other choices are there, Annie?

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), October 29, 2001.

Uh, Mike, one of the great things about this country is that we CAN badmouth the military, or anyone else, and not have to leave because of it. We don't HAVE to love it or leave it.

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), October 29, 2001.

I was in the Saudi in the war and all I can say is if Sadam got most of his information from CNN I;m not surprised he lost.We used to wonder what country the reporters were in they seemed to make up most of it. Lets hope Bin Ladan watches too!

-- Judy Schumacher (TootlesTheBrit @aol.com), October 29, 2001.

America does not want war. On September 10th, we were at peace. Some lunitic with his own perverted idealism has sold his ideas to a bunch of lemmings. We have lost over 5000 of ours and other people do to the premeditated acts of these deranged idiots.

They have crossed the line of humanity. They wrote the rules of engagement. It is unfortunate that the Taliban hold the people of Afghanistan hostage. That however is the field of battle. That is where we find ourselves. I only hope and pray that President Bush holds trur to his vow to persue terrorism where ever it resides. If the coalition doesn't like it, too bad. We can go on without you. I feel it is time to strike elsewhere. Now, before these creeps have a chance to disapear into other populations.

It is a tragedy that we are faced with an enemy that is mentally in the 18th century. They are beneath civilization. They and all who house them, hide them, cheer them, and support them should be terminated with prejudice. Don't think for one minute, that they would hesitate to do it to every American. They are now clouded with rosey colorations of the way the world should be.

Non-voilence is not an option in this case. In order for non- violence to work, the other party must at least be able to recognize what non-voilence is. These people look at non-violence as subserviance. That will not happen. If you detest the acts of war, fine. Rest assured the rest of us do not, and when the final victory is achieved, you will still be able to practice your believings. That should be your resignation on the war news.

God, Jehovah, Allah, Budda, or whoever you believe in.....Bless America.

-- Rickstir (rpowell@email.ccis.edu), October 29, 2001.

We are retired military. Do you know how many men are lost every year just in training for war here in the states! I was in 29 palms for 10 years and in the summer when the men would come back in after a month of being out they would talk about more than one killed every summer. Funny you never hear about those boys on the nightly news. You can't have training without real amo and that can kill, you can't have war with only military men who die either. Its a shame it has come to this but they gave us no choise. And those who harbor them will get hurt in the cross fire.

-- Teresa (c3ranch@socket.net), October 29, 2001.

One more thing, to all who espouse to non-violence, do something non voilent for your country. Go to Washington, D.C. and open some mail. See how you feel then. These folks live with this 24 hours a day. God give them the strength to carry out the country's business.

-- Rickstir (rpowell@email.ccis.edu), October 29, 2001.

I believe it was "CIVILIANS", who hijacked the planes and flew them into our countrys buildings,and killed thousands of our CIVILIANS ! Someone said the people cant read and dont know what is going on... Hello! If you are bombing close to my home every night,after the first round,I would head out to someplace that isnt being bombed. As far as killing somebody is murder,no matter what,you have to stop and think about what you are actually saying. What about when God killed every living thing on earth,except for the living things on Noahs ark? What about when God killed all the people in Sodom and Gomora for disobedience? What about what the Bible says about there will be wars till the end of time ? Works for me,but I am a Christian,and I read what God said. Pray for the people who are being killed,even our enemies,and especially for those who have to fly the planes and keep America free so that people have the right to gripe and whine! And while we are at it,I propose that we put ALL the media in the action,and bomb them too,until they get a grip on reality and start doing what they are supposed to do,and that is not dramatize every thing that happens on earth,except something good,or something religious ! Thank you.

-- Don Sloan (twosloans@texoma.net), October 29, 2001.

Amen, Rickster! It would be great if the leaders of the civilized world could just sit down at a table with the terrorist leaders and work out a nice deal. But anybody with half a brain knows that's just not gonna happen! Nobody likes war. Nobody likes killing. But there are times when we must kill to protect our families and our freedoms. Is freedom worth dying for? Hell, yes. I'd much rather be dead than to be a woman surviving under the restrictions of the Taliban government!

And, Annie - if I were to label myself as belonging to any one religion, I could call myself a Buddhist as well. I'm not by any means a fundamentalist, however. I abhor violence. I truly wish with all my heart that there was another, peaceful way to deal with this. But if we don't stop these terrorists, they're going to continue to kill and kill and kill and kill. They have to be dealt with once and for all. I just pray that our government doesn't back out before the job is really done this time.

Shannon, you are so right! I am all for peace, and hate to see innocent civilians killed. But who's to blame for the civilians in Afghanistan that are dying? The Taliban! They sent their terrorists over here onto our soil and killed thousands of our people. Even after that, President Bush gave the Taliban government a chance and a warning - turn over the terrorists or we'll bomb your country. They chose not to comply, and in so doing, they chose to have their country bombed. The blood of their dead civilians is on their own hands. God bless our soldiers, and God bless America.

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), October 29, 2001.

Hello Folks, I think it is very sad that anyone applaud the deaths of innocent people, whether it be the Taliban or America. Once death has come to someone, nothing can bring him back. Mourn for the dead and pray that it is not your family members that are being targeted by preversed governments. I feel that under the circumstances the death toll could be much higher but, our military has only been targeting areas that have any military value. On the reverse side, the Taliban has murdered its way into position for the last three years. Remember the mass graves that were found just recently? Believe me, the few civilians that got too close to the military targets are a small percentage of deaths compared to the 1000's that the Taliban has killed. As for those that think we should kill people that hate us, please pray that your neighbors do not think that way. America is not loved by every country and it should be expected that a few of them would wish us all dead. A famous person once said, If everyone likes you, then you are kissing too much butt. Americans do not like to kiss butt, but have in many instances. This time they are wanting to kick butt. I do not support war, as I know of the insanity it creates for both loser and winner. It is bad enough that we are at war but, it is worst that we have people here in the USA that show the same regard for human life as the Taliban has shown. The insanity is already here among many of your posts. The few of you that attack opposing views and make ill-preceived jokes about the war have caused others to feel it as well. Insane people do not want to be insane by themselves. They want to have either an audience or others to join them in their insanity. I will be neither and hope that there are others that continue to be neither here on this forum also. Sincerely, Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

I wish we could get the taliban without any civilian getting killed.At least we care about there people ,they intentionally bombed inocent peopl.They are also continuing with anthrax .There is no other way to stop these animals! Applaud our brave men and woman who are fighting for are safety and freedom .Where would you be without them ? Dead I bet .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), October 29, 2001.

Laura Jensen, What I wanted to get across is that individuals who want to go spit on the military personnel (like Vietnam) should pack their bags and leave. It is not the soldiers, sailors, airmen, or marines who make policy; it is the politicians in Washington. I am retired from the Navy and I agree that individuals have the right to protest the conflict. I don't agree that individuals have the right to put down the military. If the military is doing something you disagree with it is because they have been given orders to do so. The military does not make the decisions, the politicians do.

-- Mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

Mike you are correct , our military is following orders .Whe should support the men and woman even if we do not support the conflict .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), October 29, 2001.

I also would like to see no civilians involved but that unfourtunatly isn't how it goes with war. I believe it the Penny theory of the prophecy being fulfilled I went to NYC on Sat. after 911 and felt emotions I did not like but at the time I would have liked revenge I can't imagine what the thousands that must have seen this happen think but I bet they don't give much thought to how we get rid of these pests of society. But in response to your coment I don't like us ragging on us either.

-- Don Amon (peacelane@certainty.net), October 29, 2001.

Whenever the US gets into a war, we seem to have to demonize the enemy, and we have to make it very personal, very particular. The Taliban are ignorant fanatics who believe that their vision of an Islamic Afghanistan is the best way for Afghanistan. They are very smalltime, very local -- they don't really have an agenda to attack the western powers. You might notice that none of the hijackers were Afghan. It is true that they have allowed Osama binLaden to live and operate from there, but by going after the Taliban on the grounds of them sheltering him, it would be like, say, another country going after the US govt for allowing American corporations to direct their greedy, exploitative industrial operations overseas from here, instead of going after the corporations directly and specifically. We need to go after the terrorists directly and specifically. Bombing the bejesus out of a very destitute country will really accomplish little except use up military weapons stockpiles (so we can buy more), give frustrated Americans the illusion that they are not as helpless as in fact we are, and really lose us the sympathy of the world. In order that Americans not lose their anger -- we have such short attention spans -- the govt gives us a personal enemy to focus on. Bin Laden has been chosen to be the personal target, just like last war it was Saddam Husein. It is hard to know if we are being manipulated or if the case against bin Laden is fair and true. I don't know, and I don't know if I can believe what the govt or the media puts out. As for the Taliban killing people as a matter of policy, so do we: it is called the death penalty. And what kind of govt puts potential military targets in civilian neighborhoods? Every govt! I live not far from Bangor nuclear subase, (which, when the subs are home, is said to be the third largest nuclear power in the world!...) and there are Navy bases and Army bases all over the country in civilian areas. Try to shut one down for economic reasons and watch your congressional representatives scurry to prevent it...!

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), October 29, 2001.

Laura, most Muslims in the rest of the world resent, or even hate us, because of our attitude towards them, we treat them much the same as we did the Native Americans when we took over (history calls it settled) this country from the Native Americans. We respect neither because their religious beliefs are too "foreign" compared to the general populations, and especially because their's is not a Christian belief.

We murdered innocent men, women and children right here in America without so much as a "I'm sorry" or ANY repatriation made to millions of Native Americans. How is this any different compared to what Hitler did to the Jews???

MY point is this, if we cannot even respect different forms of culture and religion in OUR OWN COUNTRY, how can we act and respect other country's peoples and cultures and religions appropriately???

The big problem is WE DO NOT respect the other country's cultures, we keep holding them responsible to our Christian beliefs and if they do not "measure up", then we treat them like we did the Native Americans.

Also entering into our being hated by Muslims is our country's backing and approval of Israeli zionism and statehood, talk about backing the fox in the henhouse! Israel repeatedly causes trouble and unrest in the Middle East and we support them in it! If Israel cannot get along with their Muslim neighbors peacefully and be content with their original land boundaries, then they should not be allowed to exist as a country.

The giant hippocracy of Israeli Zionism is no different than a Muslim "holy war", their objectives are the same. Yet we as a nation support Israel?

These are just some of the things we have done to inflame the Muslim world Laura, and if we would be doing things differently and have a more balanced attitude towards them and their countrys, these terrorist acts would not have happened, the Saudi leaders have told us repeatedly as much for many, many years.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 30, 2001.

No matter what the terrorists hate us for, their reaction cannot be allowed to go on. You can blame whatever administration or corporation you feel comfortable with. Terrorists must be removed from society. If they could all be captured well and good. But be realistic do you think most of them would ever surrender. Doubt it. Not when they are willing to do suicide attacks on us.

Israel is an easy target because many people are anti-semetic, including the terrorists. Israel has been fighting for their lives for many years. They are vastly outnumbered by their hostile neighbors. It is hard to expect them to have the Palestians live next to them when the Palestians want included in their constitution a reference to removing all Jews from Israel. This is blatant racism no ifs ands or buts'.

The idea of Israel losing its country if it does not get along with its neighbors is ridiculous. How many other counties in the world don't get along with their neighbors? Should their countires be eliminated also? I don't think so. Israels neighbors harbor great numbers of terrorists. I cannot side with a country and leadership that allows terrorism to be part of their way of life or belief system.

Their is good and evil in the world. The terrorists are certainly evil there is no doubt about that. Lets hope and pray that America is on the other side of this issue.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

Phyllis, you said, "whatever the reason, there is NO JUSTIFIABLE EXCUSE to killing thousands of defenseless, innocent people"; does this, in your opinion, include defenseless, innocent people from other countries, or do they not matter to you?

Mike, you said, "If My Flag Offends You, Get Out Of My Country. " Excuse me? Is this what America means to you? Jingo.

Rickstir, you said, "Go to Washington, D.C. and open some mail. See how you feel then." What's your point, Rickstir? Even our "leaders" are saying that the anthrax is not coming from the OBL folks.

Cheryl, you said, "But if we don't stop these terrorists, they're going to continue to kill and kill and kill and kill. " I agree with your sentiments, except don't you (and others here) see that the more civilians we attack in Afghanistan, and in other places, the MORE the terrorists will be encouraged to kill and kill?

Lots of god points , Snoozy. I for one don't trust any government's statements. I've seen too many lies over too many years, in too many conflicts.

To ALL OF YOU who think it's ok to bomb Afghanistan people because OBL, or some other terrorist, happens to be there: how about we bomb Oklahoma to get rid of the terrorists who supported the bombing of the federal center? How about we bomb Idaho until we "root out" Richard Butler, and his cohorts?

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), October 30, 2001.

Some of the language that is being used by our president and others in the government is disturbing to me. The president has called the perpetrators of these crimes "evildoers" and "the evil one" which they are, at least as far as "evildoers". In doing so though, he has taken us from "suspected" or "alleged" and broadened the definition. Rhetorically speaking, what is the definition of evil anyway? My dictionary says: "Morally bad or wrong; causing injury or any other undesirable result; low in public esteem." Have you ever considered that something YOU or I do may be perceived as evil by someone else? When these terms are used and accepted we are opening doors for future personal persecution and stripping of freedoms. There are countries who presently ban spanking deeming it evil according to the above definition. There are countries that restrict religious worship taking the postition that it is "evil". How long will it be, as long as we continue to use this broad terminology, until Americans are forced to fit into a predetermined mold - or else? Who is defining here what evil is? Right now of course we are all thinking of the situation at hand. But do you realize this terminology is seeping into our legislation? It surely is. How is that going to affect Americans in the future? Something to think about. Here is where I stand. So long as man's laws are in accordance with God's laws, I will abide by them. When man's laws no longer are within the framework of God's laws - I will choose God. What do you think the consequences will be then? Where do you stand? How long until you or I are labeled an "evildoer"? We must choose our words carefully lest they crucify us in the end. Not to choose is to choose.

-- Penny in PA (drewbange@pa.net), October 30, 2001.

Joe! Are you reading my mind, or am I reading yours? LOL! Just sign me a Ditto to JOJ.

-- Joy F [in So. Wisconsin] (CatFlunky@excite.com), October 30, 2001.

LISTEN TO YOURSELVES!!!! The very basis of our freedom is our RIGHT to object and criticize! However, If you forgot, The Taliban is completely funded by Osama Bin Ladin and they over turned the PEACEFUL Afghan government a coupla years ago so that they could Breed terrorism. Pull your heads out and remember we've hit a handful of civilians. That's about how many died walking in FRONT of the towers as they went down. We are doing the right thing and I am so proud to be a soldier, and I am proud of our government defending our right to protest and criticize. AFGHANS DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT.

-- Jess Smith (jessica_a@mailcity.com), October 30, 2001.

All, my statement "If My Flag Offends You, Get Out Of My Country" is in reference to those individuals who refused to ride on a fire truck because it had an American flag on it. This is America and if they are Americans then they shouldn't have a problem with our flag. If they are not Americans then they can leave. I will defend anyone's right to believe what they want but I myself would not go to another country and start criticizing it as some are doing in the U.S. Let me see if I can make myself clearer: if an American wants to criticize what is going on or show support to whomever they want, I will support their right to do so. If they want to 'spit' on the military personnel I won't. Any American who is offended by the American flag isn't. Anyone visiting the U.S. and is offended can just leave. I am not advocating any position on the current situation, what I am doing is trying to show my support for our troops.

-- Mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

Mike, there really were a lot of people here before the American flag got here.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), October 30, 2001.

Would those here who are so against war feel the same if it were your child/ spouse/sibling/best buddy killed by the terrorists? I highly doubt it.

Sure, civilians can get killed in any conflict--those who have died from anthrax were civilians. As to who is responsible, the latest is that it may be Iraq, and who's to say that they're not together with OBL. Birds of a feather....

Nobody here wants war, but many of us will not allow ourselves to be run over roughshod by terrorists who are criminals, plain and simple. We did not start this, they did. The Taliban had many chances to hand over OBL et al and they chose not to. With choice comes consequence.

As to keeping out of WWII, "appeasement" did not work, Hitler would have just invaded more and more of Europe.

Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 30, 2001.

JOJ

Your idea of bombing Oklahoma is interesting , but it has nothing to do with what is happening now. Oklahoma did not refuse to turn over the terrorists. Terrorists were not given shelter in Oklahoma. Law enforcement in every state, including Oklahoma, was attempting to apprehend these evil maniacs and remove them from society.

Many say that we shouldn't do what we are doing. But as of yet no one has proposed a reasonable solution to this problem other than what we are doing. Forget the talking you can't reason with a fanatical group. These people will kill themselves to kill you. I think we can not consider negotiations it would be too absurd.

You mentioned that by attacking the terrorists and possibly some civilians you would only encourage terrorists to attack us even more. What should we do? Curl up and play dead. It seems that is what some folks want to do.

I don't offer a better solution than what we are doing right now. If you have a viable solution I would really like to hear it. (Not just can't we all get along or I oppose all war.) I want something real.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

"To ALL OF YOU who think it's ok to bomb Afghanistan people because OBL, or some other terrorist, happens to be there: how about we bomb Oklahoma to get rid of the terrorists who supported the bombing of the federal center? How about we bomb Idaho until we "root out" Richard Butler, and his cohorts?"

Well, I don't think this is a case of "happens to be there". Its not like he is a tourist passing through, and it is not just OSB. The Taleban supports terrorism... or is it that terrorism supports the Taleban. "Bomb Afghanistan people" would more accurately be described as targeting Taleban military and anything associated with terrorism.

"don't you (and others here) see that the more civilians we attack in Afghanistan, and in other places, the MORE the terrorists will be encouraged to kill and kill?"

I don't see it. I certainly do not believe that any country is filled with terrorists. Terrorists are small minority of the population anywhere. We did not attack Afghanistan and 5000+ U.S. civilians were killed. Terrorism is like a virus, you don't negotiate, you don't do the soft step, you don't try to rationalize their actions, ect. What you do is use every means possible to kill it, and in so doing you send a message. Not responding in fear of what a terrorist may or may not do... a fools game.

-- Jake (Jake@home.com), October 30, 2001.

Terrorism killed my husband's best friend on September 11th, as well as many of his former business associates. NY has suffered terribly and continues to suffer. While I don't like violence and I have mixed feelings about this whole war in Afganistan, I sure as heck support my country and the men and women that are putting their lives on the line in Central Asia. I thank God every minute of the day for the fact I live in the most free society in the world. And, yes, I have lived abroad and have a frame of reference from which to compare our country to others. I feel darn lucky to live here and will support any endeavor that fights terrorism.

Bob, your response to the anti-Israel post is much appreciated. I'm sick of people blaming the world's problems on the Jews. The Jews, and Israel, are not to blame for terrorism. Let's not stand by and allow anti-semetic rubbish pass through this forum. I'd like to believe that countrysiders are loving and tolerant peoplem, but when I read stuff like this, I begin to wonder.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), October 30, 2001.

Annie, I understand that Europeans were way too brutal and devious in their theft of this country. I like to think we have progressed a bit since then. The various tribes in the Middle East have been warring since time immemorial. I would like to think they have progressed as well, but I just don't see any evidence of that. In any case, I am hardly going to blame America for the various and constant conflicts in the Middle East. I'm still waiting for you to suggest a realistic, peaceful solution to the current situation.

Mike, I'm ex-military and know full well who gives the orders. I think it's shameful to bash the military. I also think it's shameful and pointless to attempt to curtail the first amendment rights of others. At least it is here in the United States.

-- Laura Rae Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), October 30, 2001.

i think its funny how they treat their women and children like crap. they treat their goats better. they have no respect for them at all!!!! but when we start bombing them,they cry to the world that we are killing the inocent women and children. you know that they know they are doing wrong treating their women and children like that ohterwise they wouldnt be using them as the "poor civilians that got killed"as for the children... they are brainwashed to hate us from the get go. i feel sorry for them beacause they are not being allowed to grow up as children should and form their own oppinion of the world. but... if they get killed in war its just preventing more bin ladens fron entering the world. as they say.. all is fair in love and war.

-- cody (urbusted@alltel.net), October 31, 2001.

Laura, my point was there is no quick and easy "fix" for this problem, we took a long time to make this mess with our unrealistic and racist attitudes towards the rest of the world's peoples, it's going to take at least as long to start repairing these attitudes, and even longer to start the healing process.

But you gotta start somewhere, attitudes gotta change, non-violence is not a "quick fix", but a continuing and ongoing process. However, the alternative, warfare, NEVER ends, but just causes even more hatred and resentment.

We have many great teachers that have written volumes on the subject of non-violent resolution of conflict, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and even the Dalai Lama wrote an open letter to all the world leaders to offer alternatives to warfare pertaining especially to the events of the 9-11 tragedy.

Too bad more folks don't care to learn more about non-violence, but you can't "evolve" your thinking and attitudes and prejudices without learning and enlightenment. Are you part of the problem, or are you part of the solution???

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 31, 2001.

Oh Annie..... You are allowing those emotions a lil high... I have to fix something THE ORIGINAL QUESTION, Shannon You're right. And for all you anti war hippies out there. I wish I could live in the utter oblivion you do. What we are doing over there is as moral as war gets. sitting back and allowing other people get away with killing those who pledge allegiance to our flag is disgusting and wrong. This country was founded on those who didn't want to get pushed around. Try to just pray for the rest of us who agree with the fighting. BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES GIVING YOU THE ABILITY TO PRAY HOWEVER YOU CHOOSE!!!!!!

-- Jess (jessica_a@mailcity.com), October 31, 2001.

Here's a quote from the '60's war protesters, often seen on a T shirt, "Fighting for peace is like f****** for virginity."

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), November 01, 2001.

Peace may be an unattainable goal , but it does not mean that we shouldn't work, and fight, if need be to try to attain it.

Jess, thanks for your posts. I am glad you are in the military and I am proud of you for serving your country. Keep up the good work. God bless you.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), November 01, 2001.

To Amy, we are all sorry to hear of your loss, and pray for your eventual healing. I must protest, however, your characterization of any criticism of Israel and its policies as anti-semetic.Israel screws up just as much as the US does, and IMO, certainly as often as have the Palestinians. I am weary of Americans who disagree with US Middle East policy being branded as anti-semites, just because they see both sides of this issue, and don't see Israelis walking on water any more than they do Americans.

Seems to me there is plenty of sin to go around on all sides. It clearly takes two (at least) to have an arguement that lasts 50 odd years.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 01, 2001.

I'm trying to understand better the unique claim to North America that Indians are said to have. From what I've read from scientists and anthropologists, North American was settled in six successive, distinct waves of occupation across the Bering Strait. Each wave after the first displaced or destroyed the peoples previously living here. Presuming this is true (and I think it's based upon stratum dating, styles of artifacts, etc.), then could any people after the original primal settlers in ages past have any 'right' to live here? Or to ask that question differently, do European occupiers have any less 'right' to take the land by force than the 6th wave of Indians, who had wiped out the 5th wave, etc?

Mark, a Native American (born in Ohio!) who also happens to be 1/8 Indian.

-- Mark Sykes (mark@marksykes.net), November 01, 2001.

Mark, I don't see how its constructive to compare who had more 'right' to be genocidal tyrants throughout our continent's history? Two (or several) wrongs don't make a right, after all. Fact is, people were demeaned, demonized, abused, tortured,had their culture and their livelihood stolen from them, and were murdered by the thousands. It' s wrong no matter who does it to whom, or when, or where. Period.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 01, 2001.

I think Mark is referring to everybody complaining about America (because we happen to be well-off as a country) when this has been happening throughout the ages, and will continue to happen, even if we colonize space someday, or some alien space race tries to take over the earth.

Bad things happen to everyone at some point in their lives. It could be a war, a car crash, epidemic, whatever. That's life.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 01, 2001.

Earthmama, Criticism is fine..in America we have that right, thank God. People do need to realize, though, that Jewish Americans are sensitive about Israel. Any Jew will know what I mean by this. Jewish people have been persecuted for eons, and as a result are very "possessive" of the concept of a homeland, a Jewish state. Criticism of such is often times interpreted to be anti-Jewish. Since anti-semetism is grounded in hating and exiling Jews (Jews wandered for a long time and were kicked out of various countries, or exterminated, throughout the world), any notion of wanting to rid the world of a Jewish state is interpreted as being anti-Jewish. Yes, I do think such comments are anti-semetic. Whether or not people mean them to be--well perhaps we need to think about how messages like this can make others angry or defensive. I can't stop people from expressing these ideas, but I will darn sure express my discontent.

After all, how would Catholics feel if I said we should dissolve the Vatican?? Wouldn't that be interpreted as anti-Catholic?

The Israeli-Palestinian issue is very complex. Both feel they are entitled to their homeland. I hope it can be resolved peacefully with two intact states . The USA should support such endeavors.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), November 01, 2001.

Laura, you asked Annie, "I'm still waiting for you to suggest a realistic, peaceful solution to the current situation."

May I interject one? How about if the powers that be stop promoting the ridiculous reliance on oil, and start giving at least as many subsidies to Solar, wind, and microhydro? Then we wouldn't have to go kill everyone in sight to maintain our fix on oil.

As an added benefit, we'd get rid of an INCREDIBLE amount of air pollution, global warming, cancer, etc.

These options are practical NOW, regardless of what Chairman Cheney may claim. I've been doing lots of research on these energy alternatives, and we're being screwed by Cheney and his sidekick.

If you don't believe ME, just do some simple research on the subjects. One example; check out Germany's policies on Solar energy. They are letting, nay encouraging, residents and businesses in their country to install photoelectric panels, and are funding the program with a small surcharge on power bills. A person can actually MAKE MONEY by installing solar electric. Germany is not only now the largest consumer of solar electric in the world, but there is a brain drain happening here in the US of A. Lots of top scientists are, I'm told, immigrating to Germany (Also Japan) where their knowledge is being used.

Why don't we have such a program, you ask? I think it's because Cheney and his sidekick can't monopolize the sun.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 01, 2001.

Laura, you asked Annie, "I'm still waiting for you to suggest a realistic, peaceful solution to the current situation."

May I interject one? How about if the powers that be stop promoting the ridiculous reliance on oil, and start giving at least as many subsidies to Solar, wind, and microhydro? Then we wouldn't have to go kill everyone in sight to maintain our fix on oil.

As an added benefit, we'd get rid of an INCREDIBLE amount of air pollution, global warming, cancer, etc.

These options are practical NOW, regardless of what Chairman Cheney may claim. I've been doing lots of research on these energy alternatives, and we're being screwed by Cheney and his sidekick.

If you don't believe ME, just do some simple research on the subjects. One example; check out Germany's policies on Solar energy. They are letting, nay encouraging, residents and businesses in their country to install photoelectric panels, and are funding the program with a small surcharge on power bills. A person can actually MAKE MONEY by installing solar electric. Germany is not only now the largest consumer of solar electric in the world, but there is a brain drain happening here in the US of A. Lots of top scientists are, I'm told, immigrating to Germany (Also Japan) where their knowledge is being used.

Why don't we have such a program, you ask? I think it's because Cheney and his sidekick can't monopolize the sun.

Jess, you say, " for all you anti war hippies out there. I wish I could live in the utter oblivion you do."

Just for your information, Mr cool, some of us are not oblivious hippies, although I think that term is confrontational and offensive. For instance, I'm a semi retired businessman."

"What we are doing over there is as moral as war gets." What's your point? Whoever said that war was moral?

"Try to just pray for the rest of us who agree with the fighting. BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES GIVING YOU THE ABILITY TO PRAY HOWEVER YOU CHOOSE!!!!!! "

I've done my bit in the service, back in the sixties. I don't need to pray for you for anything. In fact, I'd rather pray for you to become a LITTLE bit enlightened, and stop rallying around the flag of murder, fear, terror and aggression. Hasn't it even crossed your mind that all the bombing is SOMEHOW related to the terrorism? Has it not occurred to you that all the nation building, assassinations, death squads, School of the Americas, etc, may have SOME connection to the fact that there are people who HATE "OUR" government, and are reacting to the carnage that our government has been inflicting on countries around the world for at LEAST as long as I've been around (56 years; the first actual memory I have of this behavior is when the US government, under IKE, overthrew the first democratically elected government of Guatemala, way back in 1953, and since then there have been many, many other examples.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 01, 2001.

Thank you JOJ for articulating so well an opposing opinion that requires some thought. Jess, I also took offense to your comment. There have been people of peace for many years who had nothing whatever to do with the hippie movement.

To go to the original question, or more appropriately the assumption, that by criticizing the course taken by our government is putting down the military; I find that rather offensive as well. I strongly disagree with how this "war" is being fought and I deeply love my country and both my sons have served in the military, as has my husband and my father and my grandfather and my great-grandfather.

What is happening here??? Why are people who are questioning the course chosen by our government being accused of being unamerican etc. etc. etc.??? Amy, sorry for your loss. I can tell you that there has not been a day since it happened that I have not cryed. Knowing or not knowing someone does not alter the dispair that so many feel over how it all changed our sense of security. No one has a corner on the market here for sadness over what is happening. My grandchildren cry frequently and ask questions that I have no answers for.

I do not believe that the bombing as it is being conducted is going to do anything but quarantee another generation of terrorists. Where will it end?? When we blow up the world?? Has war ever been anything but hell??

Is it not time to criticize WHAT HAS GOTTEN US IN THIS UNGODLY MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE????????????

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 01, 2001.

Amy, thank you for your thoughtful post. The explanations you put forward are I think, mainly not arguable and pretty well common knowledge. We are all aware of the sensitivity of American Jews to the issue of a Jewish homeland,and certainly well acquainted with the history of how Jews have been treated throughout much of the past. My point was that I never saw anyone say here that they were out to 'rid the world of a Jewish state'. Perhaps I missed it? If I did, I apologize, but if not, an assumption has once again been made that because someone has suggested that perhaps Israel is just as much to blame for the violence in the Middle East as are the Palestinians, that this signifies a desire for the evaporation of the state of Israel, and I patently protest that notion. Like you said, "The Israeli-Palestinian issue is very complex. Both feel they are entitled to their homeland. I hope it can be resolved peacefully with two intact states . The USA should support such endeavors. " Amen to that!

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 01, 2001.

Earthmama

Read Annie Oct. 30

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), November 02, 2001.