Smallpox innoculation

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Hi everybody, At the risk of sounding paranoid, I feel nervous about the comments on the news about bio-terrorism. If we are at risk where smallpox is concerned then why don't they bring back the immunizations? The National Geographic channel had a documentary on last night about smallpox being the largest threat we face. It explained how people innoculated themselves in the old days as far back as (Ithink)560AD. If they could do it then why don't they do it now? They used something called cowpox. After re-reading this I realize I sound more paranoid than I am. It's not paranoia, just a desire to be as well informed as I can. I think anyone with small kids is probably concerned too. My real question is... Do we just have to sit here and do nothing or can you ask for the vaccine at the doctors office?(I don't think so). As self-reliant, thinking, aware people there has to be someone with some ideas!!! Well, better post this before I think of more questions! Thank you in advance!!

-- Kathy (kack@countrylife.net), September 29, 2001

Answers

No, you can't easily get a smallpox vaccination because the supply is extremely limited. The highest estimate I've seen is that there is enough for 7% of the U.S. population! There is more "brewing" but won't be ready until 2004 from what I've read. It is scary but we must really learn to totally trust in the Lord. In a way, this has been a good reality check for us all.

-- Deena in GA (dsmj55@aol.com), September 29, 2001.

Kathy, Trust me there are lots of people scared about the small pox, When I was a little girl, I saw a man who some how survived the pox, He had thousands of pox scares on him. This is no laughing matter. With out the vaccine, The only thing I can think of is hole up in the house if there is a outbreak, and don"t touch the mail. And pray for the protection of your family. God Bless Irene

-- Irene texas (tkorsborn@cs.com), September 29, 2001.

Are we absolutely positive that the vacination we got as kids is no longer any protection? I sure am glad I have this place to come to.....they're laughing at me at work. What's so funny about all this?? Why is it that most folks haven't thought about any of this for more than two minutes?

-- Cathy in NY (hrnofplnty@yahoo.com), September 29, 2001.

I've been sending stuff to my daughter, trying to get her to be aware of the danger we are in right now, and she keeps sending me e-mails back with these sites claiming the danger is all a hoax designed by scare-mongers to panic people. We are going to be making some preparations (what little we can do), but I don't think we have enough resources to get meds and antibiotics for her family of four, so I want them to get motivated to make some efforts on their own behalf. I don't know what we'll do if they don't, and things get really bad, and we don't have enough stuff for all of us -- I guess the babies would have to be taken care of, though.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 29, 2001.

Am I just a simpleton? It seems to me like you could just find a cow with cowpox and work ith it long enough to be inoculated? I recall reading that they discovered the idea because milkmaids did not get smallpox. My goats have had goatpox before, wonder if it is about the same.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), September 29, 2001.


I had thought of that, too, but where do you find a cow with cowpox?

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 29, 2001.

When I was a kid and we all got our smallpox shots, we were all told that the shot would immunize us for life. Now they are saying that is not the case. My sons do not have the vaccination. They were born too late to get them. Now the media and the CDC are saying that without the shots, there is little hope. Actually, during the 1800's about 3/4 of the people of European descent lived through the pox. Many were horribly scarred, but they lived. The Native American populations did not fare as well of course. I don't know where our children will be if this becomes a problem. Let's just all hope for the best and try to prepare for the worst. Remember there are other diseases out there that can be as bad or worse. Just a good strong strain of the flu can do in tremendous amounts of people, and the flu shots are so strain specific the chances of getting the right vaccination against one that is being spread on purpose isn't very good. Use caution, but don't worry too much about too many things. We are still alive, so enjoy life.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), September 29, 2001.

Smallpox is a virus folks, so put away your antibiotics because they will do you no good. Folks in large metropolitan areas, just as in the year 500 are more susceptible to a spreading virus. Smallpox has no host outside of a human being...remember that...no other animals or inanimate materials can carry small pox, only humans. That is why in Africa in the mid 1960s, whenever a smallpox epidemic broke out, the World Health Organization was able to go in, vaccinate surrounding villages, and eventually eradicate the disease. Smallpox virus itself kills nobody..it's the pneumonia which does as a side- effect from smallpox. In today's medical world, most folks with viral pneumonia do quite well because of IV fluids, ventilators, etc. Folks who are in advanced old age and in poor general health as well as infants are the largest groups who die from this illness. The reason this country could not handle a HUGE outbreak right now is that there are only so many ventilators in so many hospitals..also, modern docs wouldn't recognize smallpox if it bit them in the leg..the docs need some time to be educated about a disease that the world has not seen for 40 years. I wouldn't get too terribly concerned about this particular disease..even bubonic plague is easily cured with 10 days of erythromicin. The problem is early recognition of these illnesses or possible exposure to chemical agents. So many folks nowdays will go to work with fevers and coughs, and rashes instead of staying home where they belong! Remember the man who "invented" Kermit the Frog? He died from a bacterial pneumonia which would have been 100% curable if he had followed his docs' advice and reported a fever over 101. Jim Henson was only in his early 40s..my point is, stay out of big cities if possible; see a doc if you are sick, and don't stay up late at night worrying about something you cannot control anyway. God bless.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), September 29, 2001.

Lesley, I know antibiotics wouldn't do any good for smallpox, but if the biological agent used was anthrax or plague, they would be. And I'm not spending all my time worrying, I know God is in control. But I also know He expects us to be prepared when we see something coming, not sit and wait for a miracle to save us. Miracles are for when there isn't any other way.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 29, 2001.

According to my encyclopedia, antibiotics are used to prevent "complications", probably infections of all the pustules (pocks) one gets from the disease.

According to this reference, small pox vaccinations needs up to 21 days to take effect, and if this much time is not available, the disease can be treated effectively with a drug called Methisazone.

I was vaccinated, as was the custom of the day, twice: once as an infant, and again when I was seventeen or so, as I recall.

I never got the classic yellowish scab on the vaccinated area. Nor did I develop a scar. My mom said it was because I was naturally immune. The encyclopedia says it was because the vaccination didn't "take", and I should have been given another.

Hmm.

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), October 01, 2001.



I didn't know they vaccinated you again as an adult. I don't recall any of my siblings getting revaccinated, but since they would have been seventeen after '72 it may not have been the custom any longer.

I don't know about all of this biological stuff. I just can't worry too much over it. About the only level of prep I can really make here is to put in a store of some antibiotics and other meds. If it comes to massive epidemics, I just pray for the best, and I won't be hanging out in the city at all if I can help it. Thanks for asking this question, Kathy, I learned a lot!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), October 01, 2001.


Doreen, as I understand it, if you're not in a major city, you aren't likely to get any biological agent. The popular disease among the "sky is falling" set (anthrax), is not contagious between humans (don't get too chummy with an infected cow or horse, though).

Y'know, we have totally eliminated smallpox from the entire planet, except for a few samples which have been retained, supposedly for future research purposes. I always questioned the logic of keeping ANY samples of such a terrible disease.

Many years ago, when I lived in Texas, and smallpox had been eliminated in the U.S of A, the director of the Texas dept of public health was issuing warnings that we should not stop vaccinating people for smallpox. According to him (her?), a single case of smallpox in a single person flying in from a country where smallpox had not yet been eradicated, could result in untold lives lost. I can't remember the number, as it's been a LONG time ago.

I personally wonder why all the news media are going into such grandiose detail about what COULD happen, HOW a terrorist could carry out various schemes, etc. Are we trying to give the terrorists (if any) ideas, or what? Are we really that desperate for news that we have to be brainstorming horror scenarios? I think not. SHUT UP, YOU DUMB ASS COMMENTATORS! it's just like the Columbine shootings. Tell everyone all about it, and see what happens.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), October 01, 2001.


Well JOJ, I think it's called programming for a reason;}. There's a phrase that says something to the effect of "they always tell you what's going to happen before it does", although that isn't it exactly, the truth seems to be that "they" do, so listen to the scenarios and garner what you can from it. I remember hearing repeatedly "it's not a matter of ~if~ but when terrorism will occur on our soil" for the entire last year of Clinton's tenure, and voila, we now have it. I am NOT saying Bill did this, so don't think that please, just remembering the news from that time.

So with anthrax, (the sky is still up there, I went and looked;}) I have read that it was contagious, and also that it had to be direct exposure to the actual spores. I don't know what the truth of the matter is, as the form that is being discussed so heavily is actually a lab developed form from the latest reports I have heard. What does that mean so far as it's spreading ability? We do have anthrax in the deer population in south Texas and perhaps in some cattle there as well, but I thought this human variant was a different form....?

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), October 01, 2001.


I agree with JOJ on this issue.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit farm (littleBit@compworldnet.com), October 01, 2001.


Ayyy! Mi corazon!

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), October 01, 2001.


Senor Jump-off Joe,

Ahora, yo no signifiqué para causar un ataque de corazón. Tenemos probablemente más en común que usted piensa.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit farm (littleBit@compworldnet.com), October 01, 2001.


Here are some sobering medical FACTS regarding biological warfare utilizing smallpox or anthrax: highly unlikely terrorists would ever use smallpox because it is difficult to obtain in sufficient quantities, and it is quite easily treated by simple ORAL antibiotics. On the other hand, anthrax, in humans, is transmitted in one of three ways; direct contact through broken skin with infected animal hides (#1 animal is wild goat), gastrointestinl tract via eating undercooked contaminated meat (goat again), and inhalation via breathing bacterial spores released into the atmosphere. Unfortunately, the most fatal and most rapid type is via inhalation. It is estimated by the CDC that a single concentrated dose of anthrax relased in the atmosphere downwind from a city with a population of 500, 000 would cause at least 95,000 deaths and an additional 125,000 ill folks who would recover. More bad news is that the symptoms of inhalation anthrax are the same as a common cold for the first week, and then the disease is so far along that the likelihood of treating it zips down to 30%. The skin and GI types of anthrax are treated with oral antibiotics, and if diagnosed early, have a high cure rate. Inhalation anthrax has such a benign onset that it is nearly always fatal, AND oral antibiotics ARE NO HELP. IV antibiotics are more effective. Here's the only good news.....there is an effective preventative dose of either Doxycycline or Cipro which, if taken will prevent a person from developing anthrax in the first place. So if a city were attacked, the citizens in that city who were still around, as well as probably the entire country would immediately be advised to take either one of those antibiotics to prevent a reoccurance. Doxycycline dose for prevention is: 100mgms by mouth twice a day for 4 weeks. Cipro dose is: 500mgms twice a day for four weeks. Folks who have been exposed to inhalation anthrax are NOT contagious to anyone else. So, if you are going to stock up on anything, get doxycycline or cipro....Neither one of these drugs have been approved for children under 9 years of age. My literature has no recommendations for preventive antibiotics for children under 9. The other antibiotics used to treat anthrax IV are: penicillin, erythromycin,streptomycin,doxycycline,tetracycline,chloramphenicol,and cipro. BTW, this knowledge is all over the internet on many non- secure medical sites including the CDC, so I am not giving out info to homesteading terrorists unwittingly. Folks who say to wear a mask and prevent biological warfare do not realize that a regular cotton mask or a synthetic one like you see the medical folks use is only 100% effective if changed every hour or less...(warmth from your breath causes the mask surface to become damp and provide an osmotic entry for bacteria. Personally, after spending around three hours reading all the stuff on the medical sites I could find, I am going to get enough doxycycline and cipro for my entire family. God bless.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), October 01, 2001.

I had a smallpox shot when I was a kid and then again when I was 18 when I went to Israel. Wonder if I'm immune I'm 49, but then I wouldn't be able to take another one anyway, and it ain't gonna happen without God's permission.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony@countrylife.net), October 02, 2001.

There is a Civil Deffense manual by Larry Wayne Harris RM. on the web at http://norden1.com/~hawkins/CIVIL.HTM He goes over what you and your family can do definsively before and after an attack. Very interesting.

-- trendle ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), October 02, 2001.

LB, yo estaba muy sorprendido que pudieras hablar el espanol (pues, pudieras ESCRIBIR esa lengua!) Que interesante. Donde lo aprendiste?

Me gusta el espanol; hace mucho tiempo que lo hablo. Viajo mas o menos frecuentemente por varios paises de Latinoamerica, donde me caen muy bien la gente!

Salta Jose

Lo bueno es que ya el corazon se haya recuperado...

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), October 05, 2001.


I don't think you're paranoid at all, Kathy. The events of the past 2-3 weeks show how vulnerable our country is to bioterrorism. The anthrax business is scary, but not contageous or very lethal (except for the pulmonary type in some cases). Smallpox is another thing altogether and we should be concerned. I was vaccinnated when I was a kid (I'm 69 now) and I probably had another vaccinnation during my school years, as well as the years from 1957-1967 when I was traveling abroad in the tropics, although my shot record has been lost for a number of years and I can't recall when I got shots for what. I'm curious to know whether I'm still protected by my earlier smallpox vaccinations. Anyone know?

-- Jared Collard (jedcollard@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

Does anyone know if you can get an innoculation in, say, Canada or Mexico?

-- bob (vancouverbob_2001@yahoo.com), October 31, 2001.

I would like the answer to the questions posted severl times above, if you have been inocululated as a child are you still protected as an adult...plane and simple question!

-- sandy princeton (jprinc10@yahoo.com), July 08, 2002.

if you had the small pox shot when you were young they could test you for antibodies and give you a booster if you still had some in your system. but thats too expensive for most they probablly will just hand out shots. at the moment it is only being given to people who might come in contact with the virus through bio terrorisim. you could always go milk a cow and get cow pox then you would be immune .(this is how they came up with the small pox vaccine)

-- becky (babybeekeeper@webtv.net), July 08, 2002.

I'm not too scared about the smallpox shots. Scared? no. Scarred? yes. I got my smallpox shot in 1972 when i was born. It left a huge silver dollar sized circle on my upper left arm. Its perfectly round though, so i guess the doctor was good in geometry! If i had to get another one, I would, but only on my other arm. Oddly enough, alot of men think my shot scar is "neat" looking.

-- Amy (pattkev@aol.com), November 21, 2002.

Is there such a thing as a natural immunity to smallpox? I am 55 years old and received my smallpox vaccination in school in the mid 1950s. I was then revaccinated after a short period. Neither time seemed to have "taken" as I never had a sore or a scar develope.

-- Gary Nunn (grnunn@bellsouth.net), December 23, 2002.

About smallpox . I believe that wiping out smallpox was one of the worst mistakes the science industry has done.Smallpox like any other biological life form has an essential purpose.

Although us Humans may not like the purpose , it is still essential to the well being of Humans as a whole.

I think that scientist have realized this and have made it known to the worlds governments and now they want to put it back into circulation.

I wouldn't want to be a parent who's child got this disease ,and I don't like to sound heart-less, but disease is part of natural selection. When we go fuggin with nature , only bad results can be expected in the long run.

I believe the U.S. government is at the helm of the good ship Smallpox and it's not a sinister plot to kill millions or billions ,but an attempt to save a spieces.

Time will tell

-- Steve (at@home.com), December 24, 2002.


I have been hearing people saying to stockpile up on Antibiotics, cipro ect.. How on earth do you do that? My experience has been you have to be sick.. go to the doctor and then he gives you a limited supply. I also saw a picture of someone with small pox..it was soo terrible!!!Looked like boils. I wonder if they itch like chicken pox? Anyone know? Doesn't the bible predict something about boils in the last days for all who takes the mark? I never had chicken pox and neither did my brother. and I was not vacinated for it until I was almost 40 and my son got them when he was 14..i did not know there was a vacination for them until then. So there must be a natural immunity within some people aginst these types of diseases.. Any comments?

-- RG (crmetals@snowcrest.net), December 26, 2002.

The guy from Miami vice TV series who plays Lt. Castillo had small pox when he was a child . That's why he has pox marks on his face. He once spoke about it in an interview.

As far as getting stuff from doctors.There are many doctors giving people medicine that don't need it .

Why do you think there are so many black market pain killers ( opiates) being sold.

I thought cipro was for antrax ?

-- Steve (unreal@home.com), December 26, 2002.


Yes, Cipro is for Anthrax.. i was just speaking in general about how people are able to stockpile those kinds of drugs so easily without a perscription. Cipro or ect...I know my doctor would never perscribe anything he did not feel his patients needed. Very small town here. Makes me glad I have the doctor I do have -although I am worried about being able to care for my family if there should be an outbreak of small pox, anthrax ect.

-- RG (crmetals@snowcrest.net), December 26, 2002.

RG,I don't believe people are getting these drugs without a presciption ??? This may answer your questain .

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/26/politics/26DRUG.html?todaysheadlines

Drug Makers Battle Plan to Curb Rewards for Doctors

By ROBERT PEAR

WASHINGTON, Dec. 25 — Drug companies and doctors are fighting a Bush administration plan to restrict gifts and other rewards that pharmaceutical manufacturers give doctors and insurers to encourage the prescribing of particular drugs.

In October, the Department of Health and Human Services said many gifts and gratuities were suspect because they looked like illegal kickbacks. Since then, a few consumer groups, including AARP, have voiced support for the restrictions. But they are outnumbered by the drug makers, doctors and health maintenance organizations that have flooded the government with letters criticizing the proposal.

To get the rest of the story you can subcribe to the N.Y. Times for free.

-- Steve (Unreal@home.com), December 27, 2002.


I do not have a answer but I have a question. I took the smallpox about 7 or 8 times while growing up in the 60's. I am 52 . My smallpox never took so I wonder if it didn't take as a kid growing up I wonder if it would take now and I wonder how a person is immune to the shot. Thanks Dean

-- Dean Sullivan (dsullivan51@hotmail.com), December 28, 2002.

Hi everyone. I just came from an informational meeting on smallpox -- i am a health care provider. I heard some statistics that may help allay some people's fears. first of all, even with a full-blown smallpox infection, fatality rates are 30%, which is high, but not nearly 100%, as we have been lead to believe. Even if you are vaccinated, with the technology of recombinent vaccines still lacking, a cowpox vaccine still leaves you with a 10% fatality rate with exposure. And best of all, even if you are exposed, you have up to FOUR DAYS to get the vaccine and still be conferred a decent amount of immunity. With not a single reported case of smallpox since 1979, nationwide immunization (weighing the very real risks of vaccinations, which is why such extensive screening is required before being able to get the vaccine: you must not be pregnant, cannot have eczema or any immunosuppressed condition) seems irrational, and I cannot view it as much more than a scare tactic to heighten support for a preemptive attack on iraq.

-- Michele (stereofreedom@yahoo.com), February 22, 2003.

I HAVE A QUESTION, WHEN WAS THE LAST SMALLPOX VACCINE GIVEN, WHAT YEAR?

-- susan l. valle (slv41454@AOL.COM), March 11, 2003.

1972 was the last year that smallpox was "routinely" administered...I do believe.

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), March 13, 2003.

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