The Mohamed Atta papers

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"Oh God, open all doors for me"

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), September 28, 2001

Answers

Try again--

LINK

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), September 28, 2001.


there is ''the 1 true GOD, and the god[satan] who decieves. did JESUS,who was GOD in the flesh, say>>go kill your nieghbors???

who said''Father frogive them''for they know NOT what they do''

and what great Apostle said''we wrestle NOT against flesh & blood''

seek the truth,while it may be found-TIME is running out!!!

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), September 28, 2001.


Lars

I don't believe I would have invited him to any parties.....

Why would a 'compassionate god' advocate the murder of so many innocent people?

Probably feaked him out when he realized his allah has horns on his head.....

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), September 28, 2001.


Exactly what I was thinking, Deano. As I read this, I realized how much praying they needed to march into the valley of death.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), September 28, 2001.

Howdy Maria,

I had a couple of colleagues traveling on the 11th from Atlanta to Dallas (a Delta flight). They were seated in the middle rows and had a guy of middle eastern decent between them. He was dressed in an oversized sweat suit, sweating profusely during the flight, they said. They later learned this guy was detained and eventually arrested when they found knives and boxcutters in his carry-on luggage and on his person. Apparently Dallas (or maybe Atlanta) was a target but the guys on this flight chickened out.

Definitely freaked my buddies out......

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), September 28, 2001.



Geez, that would freak me too! I guess a lot of folks came closer than they'll ever know. I have to chuckle though, the dream of 70 virgins wasn't enough for this guy to follow through, good for us.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), September 28, 2001.

Wow, Deano. Your friends came very close to death there if that's true. If that was me I'd still be getting over it now, reavaluating my life, all that good stuff.

Freaky.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), September 28, 2001.


One of them hasn't returned to work yet. The other just came back Wednesday of this week and he says he won't be flying again for a long, long time. He'll have to change career paths though as he is in sales/consulting and our clients are all over the country.

It's safe to say it has probably changed them forever. They would have had to steam clean my seat if it were me.......

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), September 28, 2001.


Getting back to the original post for a minute, when I read it, I could have replaced Koran with Bible and thought it was al-D. Then again, Al's never suggested clean underwear.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), September 28, 2001.

Nor has Al-D ever suggested mass-murdering 6000+ innocent people

-- (Roland@hatemail.com), September 28, 2001.


I didn't see anything in these "papers" that indicated that Atta had that intention either, Roland. I'm simply discussing the subject of the thread, not conclusions drawn by other "evidence."

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), September 28, 2001.

"Other 'evidence'"? Would that be the rubble in lower Manhattan?

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), September 28, 2001.

Deano said: Why would a 'compassionate god' advocate the murder of so many innocent people?

Come on, people...it's bad enough that we don't seem to have any genuine comprehensive appreciation of Islamic beliefs, as directly as they effect all our lives, we also apparently don't even have even a vague grasp of the fundamentals of our "own" religion.

God does not "advocate" the murder of innocents. Nor does He stop us from exercising our own free will.

He gave us specific instructions, supposedly, to leave the apple (in the Tree of Knowledge) alone, and Satan suggested otherwise, and God's rules got broken by us. That's the premise of Original Sin. That earned us "Free Will" and knowledge of Good and Evil, and got us tossed out of Eden.

Evil is not God's doing, it's MAN'S...the product of our exercise of our own "Free Will", which often leads us to do things that are not "God's Will" at all. He does not stop us, he holds us accountable. We are responsible. Just us.

I'm not saying "this is right; this is what you should think; this is what I believe", etc, etc... I'm just pointing out what's already assumed to be "known" and "obvious". These are just basic, fundamental religious precepts common to both Islam and Christianity.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.


Rereading the thread I can see that I may have sort of took Deano's comment out of it's properly intended context. Sorry. I was really just wondering, myself, "Why would a compassionate god advocate us killing so many innocent people?" I guess.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.

Zzzzzz

Wake up!! ;-)

I was refering to the allah in the article, not our God. If he is a 'most compassionate god', how could he advocate anything like that? I believe the radical Islams are the ones that desire everything that isn't Islam, eradicated from the face of allah (the earth). True Islam states something like, 'killing a man, any man, is like killing Allah'.

I know you knew that, just wanted to make my point clear.

They obviously have 2 completely different interpretations of their Koran and the radical one is a bit unnerving.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthbeach.com), September 28, 2001.



Zzzzz.

God does not "advocate" the murder of innocents.

Really. Not the way I read it.

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), September 28, 2001.


Deano: God=Allah They are one and the same thing. Allah is not the 'earth' nor some entity outside our own religious conventions. Allah is just another name for GOD. Period.

Why do different "interpretations" of the Quraan seem odd to you? Don't we have about a million "flavors" of Christian denominations, too, each claiming that their way is the "only" way to believe?

To Deano and Z, I repeat: God did not fly any planes into the WTC or the Pentagon - MEN did. MEN. If a man wants to follow the devil himself, or murder a child, that's his choice - his own free will, God is not going to stop you. You are "responsible" for your own actions.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.


There seems to be a misunderstanding.

According to the writings that were found in Atta's luggage, they believed that Allah DID advocate their foul deed. Which is, of course, entirely against the teachings of Islam. Deano was merely pointing out the incongruity in the writings.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), September 28, 2001.


Thanks Buddy! You nailed it.

In those terrorists minds/hearts/souls, they believed they were doing right in the eyes of Allah.

That's all I was trying to say.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), September 28, 2001.


Isn't it a little hypocritical to condemn the Muslims for not following the teachings of the Quraan, when you yourself don't seemingly follow any real "defined" moral code at all, or that of your "own" religion, if you have one? Forgive me for sounding a bit like al-d, here, I can't avoid it. Any Bible ya pick up says, in black and white: "You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'If an eye is injured, injure the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.' But I say, don't resist an evil person! If you are slapped on the right cheek, turn the other, too. If you are ordered to court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. Give to those who ask, and don't turn away from those who want to borrow."

"You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Now, ya know that you don't do that, so why should they? Stalemate. And the world goes on...

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.

Yeah, Sorry Deano, I was reading too fast. Apologies. And on that last; I'm just speaking in generalities, there, and including myself, not pickin' on any one person or issue.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.

Really? Is it the "teachings" of the Q'uran (mustn't forget the comma) to mass-murder? Please quote chapter and verse.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), September 28, 2001.

Zzzz:

Not what I was talking about. Go back to the Book; if you consider that God's word. If not, then we agree.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), September 28, 2001.


People the world over pick and choose what they want from the books of any religion. Maybe in Islam it's even a little worse. For one thing their religious "leaders" are really more "morality police" (the Ralph Reed's and Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's of Islam) so it's more pervasive, but they don't pray in congregations like Christians do, with a sermon and a clergyman; they pray individually and in a solitary way. They live their religion and the "whacko-ism" comes with lunch with 'the boys' more than from anything in the Quraan itself. That just get's twisted to some personal agenda, just as it does here.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.

Yes? No? Shit, give me a pack of kids and I can convince them the truth lies in Mad Magazine and incite them to kill anybody over something in it, with the right words.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.

Zzzz:

We evidently fail to connect. The Book [means the Bible;ie, the Old and New Testament]. Now if you agree that the Book is the literal word of God, you are wrong, not only in IMHO, but factually. Otherwise, I agree with you.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Yt (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), September 28, 2001.


And Lars...where in the heck do you see I said that??

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz--

Scroll back 7 posts. You said---

"Isn't it a little hypocritical to condemn the Muslims for not following the teachings of the Quraan,..........."

I missed the word "not". Salaam.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), September 28, 2001.


Isn't it a little hypocritical to condemn the Muslims for not following the teachings of the Quraan, when you yourself don't seemingly follow any real "defined" moral code at all, or that of your "own" religion, if you have one?

Let's not jump to conclusions about someone "not following any moral code" just because they don't belong to an organized religion. And it's perfectly acceptable to point out the hypocrisy in somoene sworn to a certain religion when they choose to break one of the major rules listed in that religion's definitive tome, just because it suits their purpose.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), September 28, 2001.


I read the entire Bible by the age of eight and concluded that God had a split personality...like the old guy in the Old Testament was bloodthirsty and then Jesus in the New Testament was saying just the opposite.

-- helen (gazed@out.the.window.in.sunday.school), September 28, 2001.

Z -

I have trouble taking the Bible, the Quraan, (Qu'ran, Qur'an, Koran - lars ;-) and the Torah "literally". I think that's dangerous for your head, and not really the intended idea to begin with. They are all "guidelines" for living a supposedly right and moral life, and they're all also full of other things that you can only desribe as "added value" components (that's tongue in cheek), I guess.

I'm no angel, don't get me wrong...nor a preacher. I'm just analyzing the angles...

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.


Bemused, you repug!

Let's not jump to conclusions about someone "not following any moral code" just because they don't belong to an oganized religion.

Did I say that? I was very careful to say "any real defined moral code", thereby excluding you from this discussion altogether. Nomadic and generally benign lambs, like you, are usually pretty decent folk, too, I'll concede :-)

And it's perfectly acceptable to point out the hypocrisy in somoene sworn to a certain religion when they choose to break one of the major rules listed in that religion's definitive tome, just because it suits their purpose.

I didn't really address that, either; I was not addressing their hypocrisy alone, but our mutual hypocrisy and distrust.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 28, 2001.


Bob Woodward's take.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), September 28, 2001.

I didn't really address that, either; I was not addressing their hypocrisy alone, but our mutual hypocrisy and distrust.

Zzzzz!

I will always be willing to try, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how I'm being hypocritical. Distrustful? Maybe.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), September 29, 2001.


Bemused -

What I meant was that if you (anybody, everybody) are not willing to strictly abide by our (the) Christian injunction to "Turn the other cheek, love your enemies, forgive, etc...", or your own personal non-sectarian equivalent, then isn't it a bit hypocritical to expect the martyrs of the Jihad to strictly and rigidly adhere to theirs, and the Quraan's?

Btw...on this forum is "repug" short for "repugnant" or for "repuglican"? I'm not sure if I'm commiting another faux-pas in my use of that (like I did with "survivalist pollyanna" phrase). If I'm guilty of another misnomer here, let me know...

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), September 29, 2001.


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