Isnt it about time to ask? : LUSENET : A Village Commons : One Thread

-- Gary (, September 22, 2001


Not as far as I'm concerned. I more than do my fair share of school support in the form of land taxes. Because I am in a high tax state (NY), I pay a lot (my school taxes, due at the end of this month are $2300, the county taxes due in January, are slightly over $2000). I DON'T WANT MY TAX DOLLARS SUPPORTING RELIGION! On a personal basis, religion is fine. You want to pray, go ahead, doesn't bother me if you do. But religion en masse is nothing but trouble on the hoof. How many millions of people have died because someone got excited about their religion, and used it as an excuse to invade and convert (read "conquer) others? And that's just in the old days when it was PC to do that. Now it's more subtle, they call it a cultural difference and do the same thing. How many Moslems in Bosnia had to leave their homes, while their Christian neighbors took them over? And vice versa. Look at Northern Ireland. You're a Protestant, they're a Catholic, what happens? You bomb each other, march on each others doorstep in taunt, kill each others school children. Look at Afghanistan 20 years ago when the Soviet Union invaded because of unrest on its borders (due to religion). Do you know that their families took women out into the fields and SHOT THEM LIKE ANIMALS if they were badly injured because no male doctor could look at them? No female doctors, of course, because women weren't (probably still not) allowed to go to school there. Because of their religion. How about Israel and the Palestinians? Shove your way in in the name of religion and start killing. Kill each other and kill each other and kill each other. And now we have 6000 people dead in America, in one day, from religion.

And you want prayer in the schools . . .

And what if you get it? What if you get Koran study and North American Indian Church study? What if you get people studying the Torah? What if you get Wiccan study groups and Buddhism study groups?

What if you get Satanism study groups?

Are you still going to be jumping up and down with glee? Or does prayer in the school mean White Bread Jesus, No Others Need Apply. I'm pretty sure of the answer most of the pushers of school prayer would give.

So don't come asking me if it's time for prayer in the schools. The answer is NO!

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (, September 23, 2001.

Jennifer, The comment was not to teach any religion in school, simply allocate time to pray to whatever god you might have or just be quite while other do. The URL I directed you to made no mention of Jesus or any specific god.

yes, as a christian myself, I would prefer christian, but I would have no issue to see the Koran, the Torah or any other study group. Most religions have the same beliefs, Be a good person, Be truthfull, be good in spirit and mind. The goal of most religions are basicly the same. The reqirements of the religion are different, how to pray, where to pray and what is prayed.

The scarry part is Satanism study group, gay, Wiccan groups are permitted in many schools, but a christian group would not.

As far as excited about their religion. True, religion has been and still is being perverted to permit evil things from happening. Ask any musulim if what happened 911 was ok under any musulim law and the answer is no. That wasnt a musulim attack on the US and had nothing to do with religion.

I am sorry for the way you feel about religion. As a christian, All I can do now is pray for you.

-- Gary (, September 23, 2001.

No, Gary. Absolutely not. There is all the time to pray in public school that anyone wants. What there is not, and should not be, is time set aside for required prayer. And that's what it will become. If you don't sit down and pray when every body else does, in the same way the majority says you are supposed to, you're dead meat. It's that simple.

Absolutely not, never, never, never. I was victimized by people doing exactly this sort of thing. Because I did not participate in "group prayer" in school - and this was TWO YEARS after it wasn't supposed to be done anymore - I was beaten, ridiculed, and humiliated on a regular and constant basis by students and teachers alike.

Six years old, getting beat up on the way home from school by a preacher's kid while his father leans out the upper story window of their home screaming "BEAT THE DEVIL OUT OF THE LITTLE HEATHEN!"

Anyone who wants to pray in school is absolutely free to do so, now, today, and that has ALWAYS been true. What is NOT allowed is any form of organized prayer. I will support my right to the death to be free of this sort of coercion.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 23, 2001.

PS - you are GROTESQUELY misinformed if you think that Wiccans and Satanists have established chapters in any school in this country. That is EXACTLY the sort of nonsense that the religious right believes and spreads in the utter and total absence of any factual support for such rumors.

As for gays, if you're a homophobe, kindly take it elsewhere. Bigotry is SO ugly, especially when its trapped out in the clothing of organized religion.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 23, 2001.

What prayer will be said and who will lead it? Many fundies do not believe that females should lead prayers so will they be excluded. How will the public schools handle this? Will it be a Baptist prayer, a Catholic prayer, or that of another denomination. Returning to organized prayer in the public schools is a terrible idea. Much time & money will be spent fighting over the "one & only true correct" way to pray.

-- Nancy in Texas (, September 23, 2001.

Gary, the URL you posted didn't have to say which god they were talking about. When something says "one nation under god" with the American flag in the background, the inference is Christianity.

And the problem with organized religion is that it *is* easily perverted. People have done this for hundreds of years. Villages in Germany in the Middle Ages had the entire female population wiped out because they were "witches" according to the Catholic church. Jerry Falwell is a good inheiritor of the practice. "God is on my side, which means he isn't on yours. Therefore, you are fair game for anything I can do to you." That's organized religion. How can you possibly justify mass religion with the evidence in front of your face of what it does to people I'll never know.

And let me add, I really, really hate it that you connect Wiccan groups with Satanism. Satanism is part of Christianity's "gift" to the world. Wiccan is a substantially older religion and had nothing to do with Satan. The Catholic church linked it to Satan in the Middle Ages in order to wipe the older religion out. And what you even mention gay groups with any religious discussion is beyond me.

As I said before, religion on a personal basis is no problem, but you let it run in a herd and you get hysteria.

I am sorry for the way you feel about religion. As an atheist, all I can do now is hope you come to your senses.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (, September 23, 2001.

Nancy, No one said anything about leading any prayer, just that prayer would be allowed. When our legal system has said that even a moment of silence is not permitted.

-- Gary (, September 23, 2001.

Gary, I've got a news flash for you. Silence is not only ALLOWED in school, it's REQUIRED. And not just for a moment or two. ANYBODY who wants to pray is free to do so, all day long, if they can do that and still maintain a minimal amount of attention to the teacher, just in case they get called on.

Get real, Gary. Organized prayer in public school is an invitation to hell on earth. Period paragraph.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 23, 2001.

Gary, Surely you know that prayer is already allowed - silent prayer at any time. If a prayer period is "allowed" it won't stop at this. The fundies will take over and force their brand of religion on everyone. I am active in church - Methodist - but I respect the rights of others in this matter.

-- Nancy in Texas (, September 23, 2001.

Gary,I'm feeling regret for the tone of my last post directed at you, specifically the last paragraph. I realize you meant well in your answer to me, but frankly, it came off as patronizing so I struck back rather childishly by paraphasing your words. It took me most of the afternoon to cool off and recognize this. Please accept my apologies.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (, September 23, 2001.

As with so many things, People (myself included) get out of hand. My orginal post was of the URL was not ment to be a discussion on religion. A but of humor and Irony that it takes 6000 dead to have our leaders even utter the word pray in a public setting. . There are apparently a lot of people who have not found the joy of a god(any god). I can only pray for those that they may find that joy.

nuf said/

-- Gary (, September 23, 2001.

I have been an elementary school teacher for 25 years. Perhaps some do not realize the diversity that exists in public schools. Just to name a few, we have Baptists, Church of Christ, Methodists, Catholics, and Muslims in our school. Which prayer do we pray? Who do we pray to? I seem to remember a bit of American History that mentioned that disenchantment with a state established religion was what brought some of our ancestors here in the first place.

Trust me...I prayed all day Tuesday, 9/11/ was the worst day of my life in teaching. I'm certain that others prayed just as fervently. It's just that my God doesn't require ritual, public prayer. I know that He hears my whispers just as plainly as those of anyone screaming out a prayer from the mountaintops, the pulpits, or a television program. I don't know why any of the events have had to happen as they did. I do know that if we allow the government to dictate when and where we conduct our spiritual life, the terrorists will have accomplished their goals of destroying the freedoms that we should cherish.

May your God bless and keep you. I know mine will. Debbie

-- Debbie in S IL (, September 23, 2001.

"There are apparently a lot of people who have not found the joy of a god"

Apparently this is based on the same sort of ESP and credulity that makes some people think that public school is a hotbed of Satanists and pagans. LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 23, 2001.

Please - let's not enter into a catfight over prayer - each of us should be free to think and feel as we will. This country has enough to worry about let alone dissing each other over religion, color, or whatever. Let's all get along and respect each other. I have really enjoyed this site but after reading this, I wonder if it is changing into something other that what it was originally started out to be. I have always logged onto this site every evening because I enjoyed the discussion and the helpful solutions to common problems - it was discouraging to read this. Please folks - this is like a little community - we all need to help each other in whatever way we can.

Regards, Kari

-- Kari (, September 23, 2001.

People certainly do have rigid attitudes and boundaries concerning abortion, guns, politics and religion. They seem to anticipate the consequences of control of each issue as personally threatening. Like the song says, "Paranoia runs deep." The wonderful thing about weather is that while some may predict it, no one can control it, and, therefore weather in various form is accepted and tolerated. Have a nice day! (In whatever way you perceive 'nice' to be).

-- paul (, September 24, 2001.

Oddly enough, Paul, the consequences of control of such issues IS personally threatening. It isn't paranoid when they're really out to get you.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 24, 2001.

Folks, the Torah is the same, yes the exact same, as the Old Testament in your Bible! It is not something mysterious, it is the same thing with a different name. I have heard several pastors refer to the Torah in a degrading way, as though it were some sort of an evil cultic writing. I guess they must have been thinking of the Talmud ( a discussion of the Torah) and got confused or were simply threatened by anything with a Jewish sounding title.

-- Rebekah (, September 24, 2001.

Rebekah, I thought the Torah contained just the first 7 books of the bible. (7 books of Mosses) The Old Testament has has a number of additonal books in it.

-- Gary (, September 24, 2001.

I haven't seen the "seven books of mosses". I'd like to, though, seeing as I live in this soggy area, where mosses rule! No offense, Gary, I just couldn't pass it up. I know it was just a typo.

I have friends around here who have vowed to enter the public schools with their own brand of prayer. It has to do with worshipping mother earth, and peace. Stuff like that. When our local (now ex, thank Dog) Mayor got the city council to allow him to start each city council meeting with a prayer, and one of the Council's conditions was that this be open to ANY religious group, my friends showed up and did what was reputedly a great prayer to I don't know whom, but I do know that it involved lots of dancing, and there were some giant puppets involved in some way. I was unfortunately out of town.

Suffice to say, the (ex) Mayor decided that maybe prayer at the Council meetings was not as good an idea as he had originally thought :))


-- jumpoff joe (, September 24, 2001.

Gary, I stand corrected. You are right, the Torah is the first five books of the Bible. But the Jewish scriptures contain all the same books as your bible does in the Old Testament. They are in a little different order, but the wording is almost exactly the same as the King James bible. The term for all the books is the Tanakh. They are grouped in three categories, the law, the prophets and writings ( Psalms, Song of Solomon, Proverbs, etc)

-- Rebekah (, September 28, 2001.

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