I just read a couple of recent posts with great interest and wanted to comment. Both seemed to advocate stocking up on basics, etc., for coming bad times. They didn't seem to be referring to a job loss or the like so much as for shortages created by a war effort here. At least one referred to rationing in WWII. I'm not at all trying to be critical of those posts or the people who posted here, but rather trying to present an alternative view.

What I read almost sounds almost like a "bunker mentality" is setting in with some, wherein the goal is to protect one's selves and let others be damned. While that's an extreme extrapolation, I think it bears discussion. With reference to WWII, what some are doing and advocating now amounts to "hoarding" goods. I seem to recall that not only being illegal then, but also being considered extremely unpatriotic.

My goal here is not to start any kind of argument over what should or shouldn't be done or to impune anyone's patriotism. I only want to state that some of these anticipated shortages can become what are known as "self-fulfilling prophecies." If you get everyone thinking there's going to be a shortage of some commodity so everyone goes out to stock up on that commodity then, YES, the shelves will be bare! Some of you may recall Johnny Carson on 'The Tonight Show' some years back making a joke about a nationwide shortage of toilet paper. Two days later there wasn't a roll to be had in many parts of the country! Perception had become reality.

I'm interested to know what others think on this topic.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), September 21, 2001

Answers

Interesting thoughts Gary.

If there is plenty of an item and you plan on using it under normal circumstances, I don't see that as hoarding. Are you buying so much that you plan on profitting from it later? Well, that may be hoarding.

I have certainly been reminded that I have been lax. With winter coming my stores need beefed up. I have already done the preliminary repairs, etc. to the buildings. Now I need to pay attention to the fact that we are low on our staples. I have rarely bought anything we wouldn't use. Ok, ok, there is still about two pounds of instant veggie soup we don't like.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), September 21, 2001.

Living in both an earthquake zone and tornado alley, many in this rural area already keep emergency supplies beyond immediate needs. In case of a disaster we expect the heavily populated areas to receive aid and attention first. We must be prepared to sustain ourselves until assistance eventually filters down. I suppose shortages caused by panic or hoarding would just be another calamity to be prepared for.

-- Bill in S.E. Missouri (boydb99@hotmail.com), September 21, 2001.

I don't consider what's going on now as hoarding. I just see it as people preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. Just like we always should be doing!

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), September 21, 2001.

I think you said it all, Gary. If there are ten of something per month, ten families, and each family requires one per month,,, all is fine until one family buys all ten. Hoarding is "stocking up" in anticipation of a short supply. Perception is reality in many instances,,, the economy and "talks of recession" are good examples.

-- Dawg (BigDawg@not.com), September 21, 2001.

In any time of emergency, crisis, disaster or just a general tensing of the national guts you're going to get a wide range of reaction amongst the American people.

A very, very few will go to an extreme such as moving off to the wilds of Wyoming with five years of rations and a fallout shelter.

A somewhat larger number of folks will stay where they're at but will put away some goods against times of uncertainty in amounts ranging from a few weeks to a month. Only a relative few will go for six months or more since there's real effort and thought that has to be put into a successful program at that level.

An even greater number will *think* about putting away a few goods against uncertain times but won't actually do it.

The greatest number by far will do nothing at all, won't even think more than a moment about it, and wouldn't understand the need if you were to suggest it.

A very few will actively try to discourage others from preparing for themselves.

All of the above has been my observations from watching human reactions to emergencies, times of crises and disaster for over the last twenty years and from what I've been able to read in the times before that back to the beginning of the twentieth century it still holds true.

To the best of my ability to discover and that of everyone else I've ever read about there are NO laws in the U.S. that makes it illegal for any person in the U.S. to purchase as much as they care to acquire of goods in times of normal availability when anyone who cares to do so can do the same.

There are laws against doing this kind of thing *after* the crisis has hit when goods are in short supply and there isn't enough to go around, just as there are laws against price gouging for the same reason.

Just at this moment there are no shortages of anything and except for a few greedheads running amok on the 11th and 12th (who are now sorry they did) no prices on anything have significantly risen above what they were on the 9th and 10th before the attack occurred.

Simple prudent foresight in preparing against an uncertain future is NOT a "bunker mentality." Anyone who has managed to make it to an age where they're old enough to vote should have at least read about multiple instances where our national logistical system has been disrupted for various periods of time. Wars or disasters overseas can make some products suddenly very scarce (freezes in Brazil and coffee for instance) or if not scarce then much more expensive than they were only a short time before.

If it were possible to get the majority of the U.S. population to stock up then we would see sudden shortages all over but the simple fact of the matter is that short of a land invasion of the continental U.S. they simply won't. Those who do feel it to be a prudent thing to prepare will have virtually no perceptible affect on the U.S. supply chain. Y2K had more people preparing at one time than pretty much any other event in U.S. history and it had very, very little effect on availability of goods other than providing a tremendous boom time to the companies manufacturing certain niche products (Aladdin lamps and so on).

The greatest reason for the shortages and rationing during the Second World War was the fact that a great deal of our industry shifted over to producing war goods. A good deal of our national food production went to feeding not only our troops but those of many other nations and quite a lot of non-U.S. civilian population as well just at a time that much of our labor force was busy elsewhere and could not expand our food production at a fast enough pace. Acquiring a lot of scarce goods *after* all that started was hoarding and it was unpatriotic and even illegal under the war time regulations of the day but none of that applies to the present day, at least not yet anyways. Should those times return those who prepared against such an eventuality will have no need to try to acuire large quantities of goods *after* the nation feels the pinch, it'll be the people who could have prepared in advance and did *nothing* that'll be doing that.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), September 21, 2001.

My parents and grandparents kept 1-2 years worth of food and other supplies. It wasn't called hoarding then, it was called being intelligent and planning for the future. If it wasn't hoarding then, why would it be hoarding now?

-- debra in ks (windfish@toto.net), September 21, 2001.

I'll admit that I have done my share. I stayed home from work yesterday and moved all the canned goods and foods that I put up down to our semi sub terranian apartment. I even put up dark sheets to make it darker in there so our squash will last longer. We need to have an earthquake preparadness kit anyway, since we are in So Cal. For a family of 5, that means we need a lot of food. The 'scare' has also put some common sense in me, too. I haven't made one splurge purchase since 11 Sep. Water filters look a whole lot better than that lotion that helps you stop shaving your legs, right now.

I have plenty of toilet paper, though.

-- Wendy Antes (philllips-anteswe@mail.cpp.usmc.mil), September 21, 2001.

To me, hoarding is taking more than your share of scarce goods. As long as there is plenty for everyone, stocking up is just prudent. Some people advocate stocking up on "trade goods", but I wouldn't consider doing that. We only stock up on what we actually use and have been doing that for several years now - before y2k. We live far enough out in the boonies to make stocking up, esp for winter, a nessecity.

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), September 21, 2001.

Wouldn"t be better, if we all prepared a little, I don"t see that as bunker mentality. When is the last time you had to use a corn cob to wipe you know what, I don"t think I want to be out of toilet paper.If everyone waited for something to happen,and then ran to the store then you would have a riot. God bless Irene

-- Irene texas (tkorsborn@cs.com), September 21, 2001.

And then some of us have always prepared. Not for the disaster but for the job layoff, for the construction slowdown, the hurricane even to help out the family member who needs extra food this month. All my children and family know that I have an extra this or that if they need it. I religiously believe in preparing for the 5 months....we will leave it at that. I also had a horrid childhood before I was adopted, and though some would say 4 is to young to remember we stole food at this age to live, I do know that I couldn't live like some of my friends do, with no food in the house until payday. So yes it is neurotic to some extent, religious to another, but hoarding no, well maybe I did go overboard with the rice and beans :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 21, 2001.

Well said Live Oak. I agree that hoarding is only when you go out and buy everything when disaster has already struck and you don't allow anyone else to get anything.

Gary - At this point, to my knowledge, everyone has the same opportunity to go buy what they want. The prudent ones will do so. The not so prudent won't. I find it interesting that some people want to jump on others for using their brains. I wish more people would use them.

Also, if we go out and do a bunch of buying right now we will help the economy not hurt it and that is what they are trying to get the public to do. BUY! BUY! BUY!

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), September 21, 2001.

Colleen, since you chose to address me personally here I will reply in kind. I hope you're not attempting to label me as someone who "want(s) to jump on others for using their brains" as that couldn't be further from the truth I only opened a topic for discussion here and gave an alternative viewpoint to those posted earlier. If you'll scroll up, you'll see I took no position whatsoever. In point of fact, what I did do was state I was interested to know what others thought on this topic. I particularly like your perspective that excess purchasing will be a stimulus to the economy. Thanks for your insight.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), September 21, 2001.

I have always had staple items stocked, just my nature. When I get down to the last 2 or so, I replenish.

I am buying more dry beans, etc. because I can always make soup for my family, but I also thought, if it comes down to as dire a situation as some predict (I am an optomist and always try to think positive) and there are neighbors out there who are in need, those who have, hopefully will share.

If you are drying vegetables and fruit, dry some extra, doesn't take long, they last a long time and do not take up space. If you are making stock, make some extra and can it. Doing that is not hoarding but having common sense.

I am also planning on increasing my seed order come Jan. Again, not hoarding, it is providing for the future, yours, mine and our childrens'. Also because of all the biotech stuff. I plant only organic, open pollinated seeds. I want to know that I can save my own seeds and replant year after year.

For those of us with land and animals, we are fortunate. Fortunate that we know how to grow our own food, rely on ourselves, know how to do without, know how to share! We know, many of us, what it is like, or was like, to do without, to be cold and hungry. There are millions in this country that still think milk comes from the store along with eggs, and that meat it nicely trimed, wrapped and ready for you to grill. They think bread comes in plastic wrap, is white, and sticks to the roof of your mouth along with the peanut butter that comes already ground and in a jar. These are the ones who will have a very difficult time, the one we will have to teach how to grow and raise their food, how to knit and sew, etc.

When we moved to WI in the 70's, I always had a feeling it was so that we could learn survival skills and now that we are going back to the country, I am sure of it!

The execs and CEO, who have clean, manicured hands. They can run multi-million dollar corporations, but can they grow their own food? Can they milk a cow or a goat? Can they butcher and dress a chicken? Can they wash their clothes without a washing machine or dry them without a dryer? Do they know how to make a stew or soup? Can they take a pound of ground beef and feed 10? Can they chop wood and cook over a wood fire? We have alot to teach them!

-- Cordy (ckaylegian@aol.com), September 21, 2001.

I was kind of wondering , why all the stocking up now? I thought that most homesteaders kept a nice supply at all times. I don't have anything to run out and stock up on. I don't want to sound sarcastic or mean but I don't understand why people think there will be a shortage of seeds. This one really has me confused. Could someone tell me what happened to the seed supply during the WTC disaster. I guess I'm luck I save my own seed stock.

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), September 21, 2001.

I think the seed thing is because about 1/2 of all the well-known seed companies went under this year already. If we end up in war with the oil producing companies a big part of our oil will be cut off. There won't be enough oil/gasoline since most of it will have to go to the war effort if it turns big time. Regardless, the not so extreme would be that oil prices will certainly increase significantly. Those seed companies, like many other companies, rely a lot on fuel. Also, shipping of goods (and seeds) will be at a loss because transportation is going to be effected big time. Look at the chick shipping scare! Just something to think about!

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), September 21, 2001.

Isnt it a Mormon tradition to keep a 2 year supply of food and water on hand ?

-- George Wilson (cwwhtw@aol.com), September 21, 2001.

There are a lot of reasons to be prudent and have items on hand. They say that several of the companies in the WTC had back up sites away from New York for the Y2K thing, and it helped them keep information when their NY offices were taken out on 9.11.01 . I usually try to stock up and rotate stock every month. Five kids do eat a lot, and we have been snow bound for a week before and lived because of those extra items. You can call it what you want, I think everyone should have stuff on hand. How many people have what the Red Cross and Gov't ALWAYS reccommend and have a two week supply of goods on hand? For floods, for wind storms, for power outages, for snow storms, for whatever may be thrown at you. If you are caught without TP a couple times, you will probably always have extra after that! And if you care for animals and kids, it is irresponsible Not to have it on hand.

-- notnow (notnow05@yahoo.com), September 21, 2001.

Hi; I welcome all thoughts and viewpoints (they are a good reality check). I believe that reasonable 'stocking up'(not a basement full!) is just common sense. I agree that if supplies are limited do not buy more than your share.I believe that by buying ahead of time (ie. now) supplies are plentiful and you would be doing others a favor by letting the stores restock from your purchases while they easily can, so that if there becomes a shortage your needs will not be added to every elses that did not have any foresight to look ahead.

-- Tradesman (Tradesman @noaddr.com), September 21, 2001.

Stocking up in this economic time makes sense to us as many of the people I used to work with have now been laid off. In these economic times when you see industries that aren't related to the air disaster lay people off, it just makes good sense to not have to run out and buy groceries or simple things like toilet paper if you need to live off unemployment. I have been through a tornado and, you still gotta eat. When our power was off for a week, it was the wood cookstove, and our stocking up which got us by for a week. I never did go for the y2k thing, but even had it happened, I can live quite well for about three months on what's in the pantry. The animals could go for about a month on what is in the barn. Some people will never learn to stock up on anything and think the daily trip to the supermarket is just one more thing in their routine. Me, I hate shopping so only go when it is absolutely necessary, so I buy plenty on those trips and make do in between. I find it saves money in the long run - no unplanned spending for things I probably did not need in the first place. I think it makes good sense to keep enough on hand to see a family through any emergency, whether natural or manmade. Cindy

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), September 21, 2001.

I have always been a "squirrel" and keep a supply of food and essentials for any number of reasons. We dip into the supplies to see us through a tight financial month (lots of those!) or to help someone else. I have often fed a friend who was low on food and sent them home with a basket of food to help them through. I am now starting to replenish my stock with a few essentials and I will continue to do this for the foreseeable future. I do this not just to make sure that "I" have enough, but to help anyone that I can that perhaps "has not used their brains" and does not have enough. I will be happy to share what I have with the hungry should it come to that. I do not presume to predict, but I am as uncertain about what the future holds as anyone and I will do what I am able to help those who do not have enough whether there is a crisis or not. I only pray that there will be no crisis and I will use these supplies as usual. Just remember to think of others in these difficult times, if each of us tempers our actions with love perhaps we can avoid some of the potential problems and ease someone's pain.

Peace and Love nancy in the Catskills

-- nancy (stoneground@catskill.net), September 21, 2001.

We have always kept at least a six month supply because we grow and can almost everything we eat. A couple of times a year I make a trip to Sam's club and buy what we don't grow in bulk. I just made my fall trip today, as I do each year. I actually bought less this time as we have been without income this month and I didn't want to take from savings. Our paperwork for his workman's comp is in the rubble in NY and it all has to be done over. We will eventually put a little extra away, just in case one of our city children needs to evacuate. I feel that by providing for ourselves it would take us out of the "food line" if there was a real problem and a little extra would give us some to share.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 21, 2001.

Gary, some things I recall hearing about WWII. 1. Just about all men up to the age of 49 was drafted regardless of profession. The women and children stayed home and had to support theirselves. 2. Food was hard to find because a lot of it went overseas to support the service men.

I don't think it will be an all out war this time. I don't believe they will be drafting men up to 49. I do believe food will still be available. But work could be something that will be hard to find, and the cost of things could double or triple. So if you have a chance to buy more for your money now, go for it while you can still afford it.

-- r.h. in okla. (rhays@sstelco.com), September 21, 2001.

If you stockpile for the "whatever" could you not use the extras to barter with others for things you do not have. How about a 4 pack of toilet paper for a couple of battery's,etc.,etc. or would that be considered "profitteering"

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), September 21, 2001.

With four kids and a husband who works in the always uncertain construction field, stocking up for us is essential, as well as responsible behaviour. It is also a hedge against inflation. If I buy a case of liquid dishsoap fo 99 cents a bottle today, and next week the price is $1.29, then I am saving the money I would have spent anyways. Over a years time this really adds up. And prices rarely go back down again. I think everyone needs to be responsible and think for themselves. Another thing to think about when stocking up, a few luxury items: I am not a big chocolate person, but once in a while a chocolate chip cookie sure hits the spot!!! I find my children are more likely to eat the more mundane types of food, if there is a special treat once in a while. So while you are buying rice and beans, don't forget some chocolate chips. nuts, candy, spices and things of this nature that your family enjoys.

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), September 22, 2001.

Gary,

that was said about y2k, all the buying boosted the economy and no shortages existed as none will happen now because people go out and make large purchases.

Remember, I can't even think about helping you until I am able to help myself first. After myself and family are taken care of then and only then am I able to help you.

Back to lurkdom

-- LurkyLu (lurkylu@yahoo.com), September 22, 2001.

Cordy said: "I am also planning on increasing my seed order come Jan. Again, not hoarding, it is providing for the future, yours, mine and our childrens' "

I noticed on another board, where this topic came up, one poster mentioned that she was sending out her seed order within the next week because so many of the garden seeds sold in the US come from Europe. With war and rumors of war in the air, she feared that transporting seeds might not be a high priority by January.

BTW Gary, "opening up a topic for discussion" -- especially one as potentially controversial as this one -- and then standing back and not participating is called trolling on some boards.

-- Cash (Cash@andcarry.com), September 24, 2001.

I think stocking up has one other important feature: It helps us feel like we have some control over things. These days, a lot of us feel that events are out of our control. We need to do something...so stocking up, etc., helps us deal with organizing and handling our anxieties. Whether there will be shortages or not is in some way, missing a point. Still, it's good to be prepared.

Same with donating blood, taking up a collection to send to NYC or DC. These are good things to do for others, but don't forget, it helps us to deal with ourselves, too.

Just try to stay balanced, like in all things, I guess.

-- sheepish (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

Just a comment on the subject of "hoarding": from what I've read (and I can't remember - WWII caused me, rather than the other way around), hoarding was one of those situations where interpretation was pretty much up to local authorities (does "homeland defense" strike a bell?). If you had a "stash" or a "hoard" of commercial preserved foods, you were pretty likely to be considered guilty until proven innocent, with a lot more effort going into the "considered" and none at all into the "prove". Whether or not you could prove you'd bought it all two years ago, when it was all perfectly legal; the stuff was likely to be confiscated and distributed to "deserving" causes (as like as not closely related to the local authorities special interests, or even just the local authorities) long before you could say "but".

Home-canned stuff was another situation altogether. It would be very hard for a local sherriff or whatever, no matter how larcenous, to justify ripping off your own canning jars and their contents.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), September 24, 2001.

Just a comment on the subject of "hoarding": from what I've read (and I can't remember - WWII caused me, rather than the other way around), hoarding was one of those situations where interpretation was pretty much up to local authorities (does "homeland defense" strike a bell?). If you had a "stash" or a "hoard" of commercial preserved foods, you were pretty likely to be considered guilty until proven innocent, with a lot more effort going into the "considered" and none at all into the "prove". Whether or not you could prove you'd bought it all two years ago, when it was all perfectly legal; the stuff was likely to be confiscated and distributed to "deserving" causes (as like as not closely related to the local authorities special interests, or even just the local authorities) long before you could say "but".

You make a good point Don. If the national situation seems to be heading in that direction then ones best course of action is simply to keep their mouths shut. If it comes down to house to house searches then it'll be time to bring certain other items out of storage but until then a closed mouth gathers no stormtroopers.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.