I want to buy a Macro-Sinaron SE 5,6/180 for a Sinar P2 4x5". I photography still life in studio for very big paper print. I know the Macro-Sinaron is optimized for ratio from 1:5 to 2:1. I know also that greater ratio are possible. But I don't know what I'll obtain precisely with ratio from 1:6 to 1:10. And that is my main question. The other question is: do you have a better advice for such work ?

-- Gauthier d'Ydewalle (interactiveconcept@skynet.be), September 20, 2001

Answers

For the ratios you are looking for the Apo Sironar S is best. For ratios from 1:5 to 5:1 the Apo Macro Sironar (that is what the Sinar lens is) is best.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 20, 2001.

Thank you Bob.

But, if the Apo Sironar is better for 1:1 to 1:10, what do you think of the Apo-ronar in comparison ? And wich film size recommend you for both ?

-- Gauthier d'Ydewalle (interactiveconcept@skynet.be), September 20, 2001.

If you are copying maps and books use the Apo Ronar if you are photographing 3 dimensional objects use the Apo Macro Sironar.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 20, 2001.

Okay, the APO ronar is not the good choice. But the question is now: wich one is the best for photography 3D objects of 1:10 to 1:1 in 4x5"? Actuelly, I could forget 2:1. The Macro Sironar 180mm or the Apo Sironar S ? And if it is the Apo Sironar S, wich one is the most convenient between 150mm,180mm and 210 mm ? Keep in mind that I want obtain large paper print, from 1 to 5 m2. Thank you for your patience, Bob. You are very kind with beginners like me.

-- Gauthier d'Ydewalle (interactiveconcept@skynet.be), September 20, 2001.

Gauthier, it looks as though you are perhaps confused about magnification ratios. Magnification is usually calculated as the ratio of film size to subject size, and for 4x5 we use 12 cm (the long side of the frame) as the film size. In my experience photographing both large paintings and small drawings, there is no lens which is "best" for the whole range of 1:10 to 1: 1, simply because that range is too wide (equaling subject sizes all the way from 120 cm down to 12cm wide). A lens like the Apo-Sironar S will get you from infinity down to about 1:5 (minimum subject width of approx. 60 cm), but for subjects smaller than that, you need a lens design which has been optimized for close-up photography, like the Apo-Macro-Sironar. Its optimum range is listed as 1:5 to 2:1, which would mean it works best with subject sizes from 60 cm to 6 cm. Hope this helps.

-- Christopher Campbell (cbcampbell@mediaone.net), September 20, 2001.

Hi Gauthier

I don`t know your budget but one of the best compromise would probally be the 150mm Schneider G-Glaron and it is very cheap and a wonderfull performer fromm 1:1 up to infinity. But for infinity you should stop it down to f22 or more. With the 150mm you get a little bit more DOF then with 180mm. Good luck.

-- Armin Seeholzer (armin.seeholzer@smile.ch), September 20, 2001.

Armin,

The only difference between a G Claron and an Apo Ronar is coverage. They are both process lenses and would not perform nearly as well with 3 dimensional table top shots or macro shots at 5:1 to 1:5 as the Apo Macro Sironar or from 1:5 to infinity as the Apo Sironar S.

Plus the Apo Macro Sironar and the Apo Sironar S reach optimal aperture much sooner and hold it longer then a process lens. And when you start shooting in close up and macro that 5.6 aperture makes focusing much easier.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 20, 2001.

And what about rodenstock apo sironar S ?

-- dg (sacripant@online.fr), September 21, 2001.

"And what about rodenstock apo sironar S ? "

What are you asking?

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 21, 2001.

I think dg made an allusion to the Schneider Roddenkor Apo-Macro-Ronar AM-ED. Sacripant, va!

-- Paul Schilliger (pschilliger@smile.ch), September 21, 2001.

Oops! I thought you were kidding. Autant pour moi, dg!

-- Paul Schilliger (pschilliger@smile.ch), September 21, 2001.

Sorry Bob

But I disagree almost with your statement. It is true it is not so easy to focus with f9 but in a studio I have much light so thats not a problem. And if I look at the theoreticaly MTFs from the Apo Ronar and from the Schneider G-Glaron at f22 then I think the Macro Sironar will have troubles to beat the Repros Lenses. I just looked at the MTF curves of the Schneiders Macros they stand behind the G-Glarons 150mm at f22. So in Macro I need almost much DOF so F22- f45 is not seldom and the DOF will be the same at f22 and 150mm on a Repro or a normal lens, your turn now Bob.

-- Armin Seeholzer (armin.seeholzer@smile.ch), September 23, 2001.

Armin

Go shoot jewelery with each and then go shoot a painting with each.

All at f22.

The differences are obvious. Especially if you have product to the edges.

This isn't wishfull thinking this is actual experience with numerous studios doing table top product work for reproduction in high quality off set.

Go try it yourself.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 23, 2001.

Hi Bob

I hope I find time this winter for just that game. I will update my portfolio with some watches etc. Thats the time of the trues. But anyway have meanwile a good time Bob.

-- Armin Seeholzer (armin.seeholzer@smile.ch), September 23, 2001.

Special for Bob but not only!

Hi Bob, I just find today a little brochure from Rodenstock from March 1994 and now follows the quotation: Apo-Ronar: Scale-insensitive camera lens for table-top and jewelry photography and reproductions (paintings,etc.) End of quote. Title of brochure: Instructions for use camera lenses. Written by Rodenstock Isartalstr.43, D-80469 München Gauthier now you should know, wich lens you should buy for your demand! Peace for all, and good light!

-- Armin Seeholzer (armin.seeholzer@smile.ch), October 03, 2001.

You will also find, if you test them an product, that the Macro Sironar will easily out perform the Apo Ronar or other process lenses and the Apo Ronar will out perform the Macro Sironar on flat copy. The Apo Ronar is an excellent performer over a very wide range but within the range they are designed for the Apo Sironar S and N will outperform it and for product at close range the Macro will out perform it.

if one lens is all you want then the Apo Ronar will be best over the wider range.

if optimal quality at different scales and 3 dimensions is required the Apo Ronar will be in 2nd place. or 3rd place depending on the application.

Go test it yourself.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), October 03, 2001.

Hi Bob and Gauthier

I find an interesting post from Bob: All lenses are flat field since all project the image onto a flat piece of film. Lenses to project onto a curved film plane are rare.

-- Bob Salomon (bobsalomon@mindspring.com), March 23, 2001.

So Bob,after your above statement, why should have the Ronars and Clarons have more troubles with 3 dimensional things if all lenses are flat field lenses as you stated in your post from March. All lenses are of course some compromisses, but every lens has the same troubles with 3 dimensions objects on 2 dim.

-- Armin Seeholzer (armin.seeholzer@smile.ch), October 26, 2001.