Couple of questions (Re: WTC Bombers)greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread |
Why do we call suicide bombers "cowardly terrorists"?If the Pentatgon can hit one missle coming at another, after 12 hours, was the estimated killed at between 100 and 800 the best they could do? They were counting like that during the Vietnam War.
-- paul (primrose@centex.net), September 12, 2001
You know, it really does confound me when these terrorists are referred to as cowards. I don't believe they acted cowardly at all. DDon't get me wrong - I'm not applauding anything they've done. A person can be brave, and still be a monster. I still want the bastards who organized and supported these terrorists to be squashed like the vermin they are. And if Afghanistan is hiding the devils who have perpetrated this act of war, then I think Afghanistan deserves to be blown off the face of the planet.As for the Pentagon estimating the number of people killed, I think they really haven't had time to figure out who's missing and who's accounted for, and they may just be overwhelmed by the numbers. Besides, the Pentagon was slightly distracted yesterday as well! We'll learn of the numbers of fatalities soon enough. It's just all so unbelievably horrible.
-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), September 12, 2001.
They are cowardly because they stand behind innocent people do get their job done and hide out behind other nations when they do these kinds of acts.
-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), September 12, 2001.
It is probably a misnomer,more precisely they are people who lack honor. They don't fight by the rules. Many a civilization has fallen because it had become so civilized that it could no longer defend itself. We defeated the British because we didn't fight by the rules. Rome was defeated because it had set up to many rules for itself. When preserving our way of life against the dishonorable you must take off the gloves and draw blood.
-- Del (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), September 12, 2001.
Bullies who hurt people who never have done anything against them, and do it in such a way that it is hard to tell who did the deed, are cowards. If a courageous person has a disagreement with another person, he comes out into the open and fights with that person, after agreeing with that person what the rules of the fight will be.
-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), September 12, 2001.
As I understand it, the section of the Pentagon which was hit was just coming out of extensive renovation. Some offices were being reoccupied, while some weren't. I don't think there is anything sinister about not wanting to release casualty numbers until they have a good handle of them. Say they cannot account for Capt. Bob Smith. The fact he is on leave, and may be fishing on the Salmon River, may have been destroyed.I still say whoever hit the Pentagon didn't know anything about it. Apparently they came in from the Potamac, did a loop and hit the side away from where the top civilian and military brass have their offices. Straight in from the Potamac would have hit that area.
The Pentagon was built in 1943 and, I believe, is still the world's largest office building under one roof. I believe the workforce is about 25,000. That is a lot of people, who are now scattered everwhere to account for. Who can account for those who were visiting or on business there at this time?
I have been in the Pentagon on a number of occasions. It was built like a fortress with thick walls. It is five stories above ground (and several below) and has five rings connected by passageways. This, at least, helped to reduce the damage and loss of life.
-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 12, 2001.
Paul,You need to explain your second question ("one missile coming at another").
-- Rick#7 (rick7@postmark.net), September 12, 2001.
Rick, I think he's talking about the "star wars" missle program. ?
-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), September 12, 2001.
I agree with Del; these were undoubtably brave men... without honor. As Louis L'Amour wrote in 'The Walking Drum', "...honor is important only when dealing with honorable men." These people have changed the 'rules', so now let them play by those rules. We didn't lose with the British, we didn't lose in Desert Storm.We WON'T lose now!!!!
Randle
-- Randle Gay (rangay@hotmail.com), September 12, 2001.
Suicide bombers are not always terrorists or cowards--cowards are not always suicide bombers.Anyone in the military understands the Laws of War--one of the tenets of which is not deliberately going after noncombatatants, i.e. civilians.
Terrorists are cowards by any standard--too afraid to declare a real war, and too afraid to attack anyone but civilians. Doesn't matter whether they are killed in the attempt or perpetrate the crime from a distance, terrorists are still cowards.
-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 12, 2001.
While I may be biased, by having a husband that has been a US Marine for over 21 years.....I say they ARE cowards because they attack and kill people that are defenseless and had nothing to do with the reason they are attacking. Just because they have so little regard for life (including their own)that they would commit suicide, does not mean they are brave. They are a bullies and they are ultimately cowards. Kathy in Va
-- Kathy (VaUSMCwf@home.com), September 12, 2001.
Ken, I just wanted to add that they said the towers were build in the late 1960's early 70's. So they were 35+ yrs old. This should be a time of unity not to be bickering amongst ourselves. Whether you are Christian or not you should feel a strong tug at your heart for those who have been hurt and killed. Let's just focus for one moment on those involved and stop being so self involved. This is a sad day! :o(
-- Kelle in MT. (kvent1729@aol.com), September 12, 2001.
Paul,As to the death toll, the number 100 referred to known dead, while 800 included know dead and missing, unaccounted for not confirmed dead at this time.
-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), September 12, 2001.
In a time of great emotion all sorts of descriptive terms get used on the enemy that may not be accurate.I don't think the enemy who hijacked our planes and flew them into our buildings were cowards at all, they showed a bravery that many, many could not show. They martyred themselves to their cause just as many in our history or religious faith have done themselves. The fact that they did not tell us in advance they were going to attack is not strange either. Our own military does the very same thing and we call it an ambush. Nor can we say that we did not know we were at war with them (if, in fact, it was Osama Ben Laden) since he has made his intent to attack the U.S. very clear many times in the past and has attacked us several times already.
We could condemn him for attacking civilian targets but in the sort of conflict that we are presently involved in it's pretty hard to say who is an allowable target and who is not. In the Second World War we killed not only killed the soldiers who directly attacked us but we with deliberate intent knowingly killed a great many civilians in Germany and Japan who supported those nations war industries and a terrible lot of their wives and children too. This was all done by deliberate act of policy. If you get away from the high school history books and read the more in depth histories you'll see this was not uncommon in most of the other wars the U.S. engaged in, most especially the Indian wars of the 19th century.
Amongst the "civlized" nations we all have a gentlemen's agreement of who is and is not a legitimate target (we call the agreement the "Laws of War") but you'll find that everyone of them have honored that agreement nearly as often in the breach as they did in fact. It took decades for the truth to out but it has been shown that in at least several cases we deliberately and knowingly targeted civilian areas for strategic bombing in the Second World War. It was this reason why if our fliers were shot down they very, very much wanted to be taken prisoner by the German military rather than be discovered by German civilians who would very likely kill them.
"Terrorism" is a very fuzzy word and it would be very difficult, perhaps impossible, to define it in such a way that a knowledgeable historian could not point to several acts of deliberate U.S. policy that would not also qualify as terrorism. Call him a terrorist, or a freedom fighter, an irregular soldier, a guerilla or whatever you want.
NONE of this should be construed as my acceptance of what happened as excusable. If in fact that it was Osama Ben Laden who is responsible for these attacks he is carrying out his war upon us to achieve particular ends and he's doing it as well as he is able and this last attack proves that he is very able indeed. Now in reponse to his attacks upon us I believe we need to hunt him down where ever he hides and kill him, his followers, and anyone who has supported him. If that means we have to violate national borders then I think we should give the respective nation an opportunity to cough him up to us and if they decline we cross their borders and do it ourselves. If they resist we destroy them. Ben Laden has declared himself our enemy, has successfully attacked and killed what looks to be thousands of U.S. citizens and must now accept the consequences of his behavior which means his complete and utter destruction to the best of our ability to carry it out. We don't need buzzwords like "cowardly terrorist" to do this. Simple calm, focused rage at our losses should suffice for that end.
={(Oak)-
-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), September 12, 2001.
First, let me say, as a citizen of another country that I am deeply saddened by the horrific events in N.Y. and D.C. I also am wodering if you as American citizens wonder why it is that so many people-- particularly those in third world countries feel so much anger toward U.S. involvement--often unwanted-- in their countries? I find Fundamentalists terrifying anytime and this act was an example of the worst kind --but I hope the U.S. power elites will begin to reflect on the kind of involvement they have and whether it is ultimately just and fair to the people who live in these countries or is only beneficial to those in the rich consumer so
-- robyn lancaster (robynyl@islandnet.com), September 12, 2001.
Robyn:Maybe most third world countries haven't considered where we have helped them in the past. This is an excerpt that I had heard on the radio as well as received an e-mail copy of it.
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES > > > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. > > > America: The Good Neighbor. > > > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given > > > recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from > > > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television > > > Commentator. What follows is the full text of his > > > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional > > > Record: > > > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the > > > Americans as the most generous and possibly the > > > least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, > > > Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy > > > were lifted out of the debris of war by the > > > Americans who poured in billions of dollars and > > > forgave other billions in debts. > > > > > > None of these countries is today paying even the > > > interest on its remaining debts to the United > > > States. When France was in danger of collapsing in > > > 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and > > > their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the > > > streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. > > > > > > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the > > > United States that hurries in to help. This spring, > > > 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. > > > Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman > > > Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged > > > countries. Now newspapers in those countries are > > > writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. > > > > > > I'd like to see just one of those countries that is > > > gloating over the erosion of the United States > > > dollar build its own airplane. Does any other > > > country in the world have a plane to equal the > > > Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the > > > Douglas DC10? > > > > > > If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the > > > International lines except Russia fly American > > > planes? Why does no other land on earth even > > > consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You > > > talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. > > > You talk about German technocracy, and you get > > > automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, > > > and you find men on the moon - not once, but several > > > times - and safely home again. > > > > > > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put > > > theirs right in the store window for everybody to > > > look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued > > > and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most > > > of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are > > > getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to > > > spend here. > > >> When the railways of France, Germany and India were > > > breaking down through age, it was the Americans who > > > rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the > > > New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an > > > old caboose. Both are still broke. > > > > > > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced > > > to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name > > > me even one time when someone else raced to the > > > Americans in trouble? I don't think there was > > > outside help even during the San Francisco > > > earthquake. > > > > > > > > > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one > > > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get > > > kicked around. They will come out of this thing > > > with their flag high. And when they do, they are > > > entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are > > > gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada > > > is not one of those." > > >! > > > Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!! > > > This is one of the best editorials that I have ever > > > read regarding the United States. It is nice that > > > one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of > > > the world would realize it. We are always blamed for > > > everything, and never even get a thank you for the > > > things we do. > > > > > > I would hope that each of you would send this to as > > > many people as you can and emphasize that they > > > should send it to as many of their friends until > > > this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am > > > just a single American that has read this, TRIBUTE TO > > > THE UNITED STATES
-- Debi (beeuwsae@msu.edu), September 13, 2001.
And here's another Canadian's perspective on the war:"Hi all, I think many of us outside the US know that the terrorist attack on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center is not just a US problem! You (for the most part) were the victims this time. But anyone who can terrorize all of America can do the same anywhere else in the world, if they so decide. We were all terrorized by these attacks. Britain's Tony Blair made it very clear yesterday that the British feel the same way, even though they are separated from the US by an ocean. Canadians have a special interest in all of this. After all, of our major cities sit very close to the US border. Besides that, we have very much in common with the US: democracy, freedom, a high standard of living, just to mention a few.
I'm proud that Canada shut its airports down except to accept 247 US- bound aircraft -- more than 30,000 passengers -- to clear the skies so the US military to more easily monitor the skies. And many Canadians have donated blood, and hospitals in Toronto and Montreal have cancelled elective surgery in case victims needed Canadian surgeons.
Yes, we really care about what happened in NYC, DC and Pennsylvania. We have been just as glued to our TVs (we have had constant coverage) for the latest information. We feel just as devestated, the wind whipped out of our sails (and souls)."
Tina in Ontario -------------------------------------------- So as this Canadian mentioned, if this could happen to the U.S., think about any other country that these terrorists can bomb away at. The terrorists want one thing, and that is CONTROL of all nations.
-- Debi (beeuwsae@msu.edu), September 13, 2001.