I'm preparing a black & white photo exhibit and I'm having trouble finding the right paper. My favorite for years has been Oriental Seagull. I love the pure white base and neutral grays & blacks.

But the negatives I'm printing (mostly TMZ-2300 and Delta 3200) are looking a little flat on #3 Seagull. I"m afraid #4 will be too contrasty and will emphasise the grain. I tested Ilford Galerie and the negatives print beautifully on #3 grade. (Is Ilford richer in silver than Oriental?) But I hate the greenish tone. Selenium toning helps, but it's difficult for me to hit that sweet spot of neutral tone before going over to the purple color which I also dislike.

I'm looking for alternative papers, but I see that my favorite supplier, B&H, doesn't list Kodak Elite anymore. And Agfa only offers warm tone papers. My requirements are: white fiber paper base, neutral tone, glossy surface, and graded, not multigrade, in a really fine quality, silver rich paper. I'm using an Aristo cold light, not designed for variable contrast printing, and don't want to get into the heavy filtration issue.

-- Greg Fight (gfight@gate.net), September 08, 2001

Answers

I like the Seagull too. You don't say what you're developing in, but maybe you could go to the #4 Seagull and use a softer developer?

-- Conrad Hoffman (choffman@rpa.net), September 08, 2001.

I was going to say Polymax Fine Art until you mentioned "graded only." That Kodak product is as neutral as any I've seen right out of the (Dektol or Polymax T) developer. For graded, try Bergger NB. It's pretty darn neutral in the only developer I've used with it, Ilford Universal Paper Developer. Perhaps others can comment on tone in different chemicals.

-- Sal Santamaura (bc_hill@qwestinternet.net), September 08, 2001.

You might experiment with adding benzotriazole to the developer you use to get rid of the greenish tone. I use Edwal Liquid Orthazite (which contains benzotriazole) for this purpose.

-- Joe Miller (jmmiller@poka.com), September 08, 2001.

Thanks for the responses.

Looks like I have more experimenting to do with my Oriental and Ilford papers. Quite possibly the Ilford with minimal selenium toning (Kodak selenium toner, 1:9 for 2 mins) might give me the neutral tone I'm after. Then I can compare paper quality to the Oriental paper. I'll also try Seagull in #4 grade, possibly with Selectol Soft. I'm using Dektol now. And I've always wanted to try the Bergger paper...

-- Greg Fight (gfight@gate.net), September 08, 2001.

Take a look at Forte or Bergger papers.

-- Dan Smith (shooter@brigham.net), September 09, 2001.

You can also mix Dektol and Selectol Soft to obtain intermediate levels of contrast. Or you might try a higher dilution with Dektol (1:3, 1:4, etc.). Just keep in mind that if diluting Dektol higher than 1:2, it will be exhausted a bit quicker.

-- Michael Feldman (mfeldman@qwest.net), September 09, 2001.

With Ethol LPD paper developer, you can vary the dilution to alter paper tone from cold to neutral to warm. Contrast does not change with dilution. It works well on the Ilford VC and graded papers, and on the Zone VI Brilliant graded papers. Haven't tried it with other current papers, but it could produce a beautiful silvery tone on the old silver-rich Kodak Polycontrast papers. Other advantages are that it has a very high stability as stock, a long long tray life after dilution, a large print capacity, and a low tendency to cause allergic reactions (it's phenidone-based rather than metol-based). I've used LPD for 30 years without problems; I became sensitized to Dektol within a few years. Good luck!

-- Tim Nelson (timothy.nelson@yale.edu), September 10, 2001.

I called B&H today - I was going to try the Bergger paper as Dan and Conrad suggested, but they would have to special order it. So I ordered more Oriental Seagull. I will use Selectol soft, along with my Dektol, to control contrast with the #4 grade per Michaels suggestion. I have plenty of time to experiment, so I will eventually try the Bergger paper and possibly the Forte. And I definitely will use more Galerie, following Joe's suggestion to use the Edwall additive in my developer, and I may try the Ethol LPD as Tim suggested.

This has become an project. Thanks to everyone for the valuable information!

-- Greg Fight (gfight@gate.net), September 10, 2001.

Greg,

I emailed B&H's purchasing manager with your information about having to "special order" Bergger graded papers. B&H is very good about stocking what the customer asks for and I'll see if I can get them to make it a little easier for you to try our papers.

If you run into any more problems like this with any Bergger dealer, please contact me offlist.

Best Regards,

John Horowy Bergger Products, Inc.

-- John Horowy (sales@bergger.com), September 10, 2001.

GREG, Contact Adoramacamera.com - they carry the Bergger papers.

-- jim megargee (jmegargee@nyc.rr.com), September 11, 2001.

The Adorama salesman said they are out of the Bergger NB paper and that Forte has discontinued its Bromofort graded, neutral-tone paper. Also, he said Ilford is discontinuing its Galerie graded, neutral-tone paper!

I have some more Seagull on the way and will try the Bergger paper soon.

Thanks all for your help, and best wishes to you all in these trying times.

-- Greg Fight (gfight@gate.net), September 15, 2001.

As a general rule, I've found that retailers tend to make up stories when they don't carry or have in stock what you're looking for. That may not be the case here, but let me share a bit of Ilford information.

Several weeks back, having read some troubling comments about Galerie in Photo Techniques magazine (USA), I asked Ilford about the future of this product. Here is a reply I received from them on August 30, 2001:

"There are currently no plans to discontinue Galerie paper, although we have stopped producing some of the larger sizes in the most extreme grades. The remaining papers will be produced as long as it remains economically viable, and the paper sells well enough that we can be assured that customers will be buying fresh product.

Regards, David Carper ILFORD Technical Service"

While it is possible that something may have changed in the last two weeks, a more likely explanation is the general rule I mentioned above. Anyone who likes this product is advised to buy enough of it so Ilford's decision makers keep it alive.

-- Sal Santamaura (bc_hill@qwestinternet.net), September 16, 2001.

Thanks for that info. I was ready to believe the worst, since the graded, neutral-tone Galerie isn't listed on Ilford's web site. But, since my conversation with the Adorama salesman I have ordered some Galerie neutral-tone #3 grade 11x14 paper from a local dealer. Should be here in a week he thinks, provided delivery gets back to something resembling normal.

So I have Galerie and Seagull on the way. I am saved. And I'm still going to find some Bergger paper to satisfy my curiosity.

-- (gfight@gate.net), September 16, 2001.

Sal, I was able to get more Galerie graded paper through a nearby dealer. This stuff prints beautifully, but I haven't been able to neutralize that yellow-green tone to my satisfaction by selenium toning. I'm waiting to get some Edwal Liquid Orthazite to add to my developer (I'm using Dektol) as Joe suggested. I may try the Ethol LPD developer as Tim suggested.

I'll probably do the majority of this project on Seagull which, to me, looks just right. Reminds me of the old Agfa Brovira from the 70's!

Thanks all for your help.

-- Greg Fight (gfight@gate.net), October 01, 2001.

Greg - I use Galerie and neutralize the greenish hue by toning for 2 to 5 minutes in selenium diluted 1+4 with water.

-- Ed Buffaloe (edb@unblinkingeye.com), October 01, 2001.

Ilford has updated many of its black and white Fact Sheets in the last few months. They're on the Web site:

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/homeng.html

and Ilfobrom Galerie FB is now included!

-- Sal Santamaura (santamaura@earthlink.net), May 09, 2002.