Israeli students defy military call-up : LUSENET : Grassroots Information Coordination Center (GICC) : One Thread,,3-2001311045,00.html


Israeli students defy military call-up


SIXTY-TWO Israeli high school students refused yesterday to do military service in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, accusing their Government of aggressive and racist policies towards Palestinians.

In an open letter to Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister, the teenagers, who face two weeks in jail if they refuse when conscripted at 18, said that their consciences prevented them from taking part in oppression. “Land expropriation, arrests, executions without trial, house demolition, closure, torture and the prevention of healthcare are only some of the crimes the state of Israel carries out,” they said. “We do not intend to take part in the execution of this policy.”

Shlomo Dror, a defence spokesman, said: “They have the right to say what they think, but the moment they are part of the army they have to do what they are told. In Britain nobody asks the soldiers if they want to serve in the Falklands or Belfast.”

Mr Sharon is said to be considering a military buffer zone to seal off areas of the West Bank adjoining Israel amid mounting tension over suicide bomb attacks.

-- Swissrose (, September 07, 2001


Kudos to these brave students.
In Israel males must serve 3 years and women 2.
It's amazing that they could develop such an
awareness amid all the propaganda that they're
receiving right now.

-- spider (, September 07, 2001.

Brave or ignorant? What will happen when one of their friends or family members are shot or blown up?

-- Steve McClendon (, September 07, 2001.

What will happen when future tribunals prosecute
soldiers that took part in genocide and ethnic
cleansing. To claim that one is only following
orders will not be enough ::::-§

-- spider (, September 07, 2001.


Very respectfully, I don't think it is propaganda that every Arab and Persian dictatorship (that surrounds Israel) has declared their intent to destroy Israel. Those statements are a matter of public record, and those statements have certainly passed the rhetoric stage as evidenced by the terrorist acts that occur everyday. Certainly a reasonable response by a country faced with those threats, would be to require military service by the young and healthy, in order that the innocent (the children, the aged and the disabled) not be slaughtered.

-- Phil Maley (, September 07, 2001.


Your POV is understandable considering what
information is available in the mainstream
press. The recent history of Palestine (the
last 50 years) has been a tragedy for the
Palestinians. Their homeland has been taken
away under a UN mandate and they have lived
in terror for all these years. They have no
rights as citizens or as humans. Their homes
are constantly razed to make room for more
settlements. The Zionist Protocols of Theodor
Herzl is a fascist document that is the basis
for the Israeli state. When the World Anti-
Racism Conference equated Zionism with racism
it was a tempered but accurate description.

-- spider (, September 07, 2001.

The following is a quote from Tolstoy’s Writings on Civil Disobedience and Non-Violence, Signet Press, 1967 ed. that speaks directly to the question of Israelis refusing military service. ===========

“During the last year , in Holland, a young man named Van der Veer was called to enter the National Guard. To the summons of the commander, Van der Veer answered in the following letter: --


“To M. HERMAN SNEIDERS, Commandant of the National Guard of the Midelburg district.

“DEAR SIR-- Last week I received a document ordering me to appear at the municipal office, to be, according to law, enlisted in the National Guards. As you probably noticed, I did not appear, and this letter is to inform you, plainly and without equivocation, that I do not intend to appear before the commission. I know well that I am taking a heavy responsibility, that you have the right to punish me, and that you will not fail to use this right. But that does not frighten me. The reasons which lead me to this passive resistance seem to me strong enough to outweigh the responsibility I take. I, who, if you please, am not a Christian, understand better than most Christians the commandment which is rooted in human nature, in the mind of man. When but a boy, I allowed myself to be taught the trade of a soldier, the art of killing; but now I renounce it. I would not kill at the command of others, and thus have murder on my conscience without any personal cause or reason whatever. Can you mention anything more degrading to a human being than carrying out such murder, such massacre? I am unable to kill, even to see an animal killed; therefore I became a vegetarian. And now I am to be ordered to shoot men who have done me no harm; for I take it that it is not to shoot at leaves and branches of trees that soldiers are taught to use guns. But you will reply, perhaps, that the National Guard is besides, and especially, to keep civic order. M. Commandant, if order really reigned in our society, if the social organism were really healthy-- in other words, if there were in our social relations no crying abuses, if it were not established that one man shall die of hunger while another gratifies his every whim of luxury, then you would see me in the front ranks of the defenders of this orderly state. But I flatly decline to help in preserving the present so-called “social order.” Why, M. Commandant, should we throw dust in each other’s eyes? We both know quite well what “preservation of order” means.: upholding the rich against the poor toiler, who begin to perceive their rights. Do we not know the role which the National Guard played in the last strike at Rotterdam? For no reason, the Guard had to be on duty hours and hours to watch over the property of the commercial houses which were affected. Can you for a moment suppose that I should shoot down working-people who are acting quite within their rights? You cannot be so blind. Why then complicate the question? Certainly, it is impossible for me to allow myself to be molded into an obedient National Guardsman such as you want and must have. For all these reasons, but especially because I hate murder by order, I refuse to serve as a National Guardsman, and ask you not to send me either uniform or arms, because I have a fixed resolve not to use them.-- I greet you, M. Commandant, J.K. VAN DER VEER.”

============== Tolstoy goes on in the essay to point out that killing on command is wholly incompatible with any notion of individual human responsibility.

-- Neil Ruggles (, September 07, 2001.

Spider: I do not condone war time atrocities and fully support any inquiry that will bring Israelis and Palestinians that are guilty of war crimes to justice. The Palestinians never had any government or land of their own until Israel kicked out the Jordanians; their benefactor. They have squatted on this land since the Jews were driven out by the Romans around 70 A.D. Obviously the Palestinian's ancestors weren't so bright; they either were never taught their history or chose to ignore it. The Israelis were exiled to Babylon only to return; what made anyone think it wouldn't happen again. If I left my land and a few years later I came back and discovered people were squatting on it, I believe I have the right to evict them. The property rights to Jerusalem are firmly established as evidence by the history book the Jew calls the Tenach and the English speaking world calls the Old Testament (1 Chronicles 21:25). The PA had a marvelous final offer from Barak and they blew it. Arafat has shown his true colors, he wants it all. They should be happy they have what they have, accept it and begin to teach their children how to count properly; not 1 dead Israeli ad nauseum, teach them proper geography; no mention is made on any palestinian map that Israel actually exists. Then they will get what they truly need: real jobs in Israel instead of no paying, dead end jobs like stone throwing. And no, Israel doesn't have to let the Palestinian come work in Israel until they can prove themselves as trustworthy pursuers of peace. I appreciate the civilty of this forum and I hope we can keep it going.

-- Steve McClendon (, September 07, 2001.

This term suggests a bias on your part.

real jobs in Israel
Not possible considering the current laws.

and a few years later I came back
More like a few thousand.

Read the Protocols of Zion and then get back to me.

-- spider (, September 08, 2001.


Again very respectfully:

My point-of-view is foundationally from the Bible. From that written history, I understand God promised that the descendents of Abraham would inherit the land Abraham was walking on. The promise was reiterated to Isaac and Jacob, and then fulfilled in 1451-1444 B.C. when Joshua led two million plus into the land of Canaan.

Esau’s (Isaac’s firstborn) descendents (the alleged Palestinians) at that time occupied the middle and southern portions of present day Jordan. Their main city was Petra. From archeological records it appears that they occupied this area for about 1800 years (although they were conquered from time to time). Later they moved south and spread slightly to the west and were called by the Romans, “the Idumeans.” In 1932 the alleged Palestinians were completely flushed back into the country of Jordan by the Saudis and primarily remained there until Black September 1970. After killing over 5000 Palestinians in 1970-1971, King Hussein dispersed over two million of Esau’s descendents to various parts of the world.

Before 1948, the land Israel now occupies was very sparsely populated (look at the pre 1948 photographs of this land). In fact the Arabs, who sold Israelites land, laughed at them for buying swamps and deserts. I find it curious that neither the Arabs nor the alleged Palestinians had any interest in the land until the Israelites performed a modern day miracle by transforming the land into an agricultural paradise. Israel is presently the number two fruit- exporting nation in the world. Check out present day pictures of Israel.

By all this, I am saying the alleged Palestinians were never a significant presence in the land promised to Abraham, and I question their motives and the people who fund them.

I do not think the writings of Theodor Herzl were fascist. I make this statement because my understanding of Fascism is that it is a public (governmental) -- private (corporate capitalism) partnership model. Fascism is surfacing again and has been referred to as the Third Way. Herzl certainly did not advocate that structure and that is not the structure of present day Israel.

The World Anti-Racism Conference is a sham and a thinly veiled cover for an evil agenda.

-- Phil Maley (,, September 08, 2001.

The cause of peace and justice in that neighbourhood is greatly hampered by American biblical NUTBALLS!!!

If Israel's policy towards the Palestinians is ordained by the Old Testament God, then, well, let me just say I'm very glad that that old ghost is increasingly losing it's stranglehold on the hearts and minds of this planet.

-- number six (!@!.com), September 09, 2001.

52 links of Jews against zionism

-- number six (!@!.com), September 09, 2001.

number six,

You say, "...that old ghost is increasingly losing it's stranglehold on the hearts and minds of this planet."

Yes, I guess you have a point, but look at the effect - in the last 100 years, 170,000,000 dead due to political violence, as opposed to 330,000,000 dead in the 1900 years before that. 34% of the total in just 100 years. Cause (elimination of the knowledge of the Lord) and effect (bloodshed on an exponential scale).

I can began to see why Jesus said in Matthew 24:22 "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved;..."

-- Phil Maley (, September 09, 2001.

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