Okay, so here's my question. I read that those ads that promise to pay for your training and that you can make beaucoups cash were misleading, but it seemed to me that the misleading part was the amount of cash you could be expected to make, and not the training itself. Am I correct in this assumptiom?

If this is so, and the training is legit, than would you all consider it unethical to sign up for the training in order to literally be paid to learn how to buy a car without getting screwed? Make money now learning how to save money later. Do you have to sign some sort of contract with them and if so, couldn't you just work out your contrct and so long suckers? Any imput on this would be appreciated.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), September 02, 2001

Answers

Soni,

You'd be lying. You'd be misrepresenting yourself. You'd be misrepresenting your intentions. For what? For the misplaced hope you might save a few dollars? Are you really for sale that cheaply? You asked if I "would consider it unethical" to do that. It would be something I wouldn't even consider doing. That's just me, though. I'm honest. You're obviously more comfortable with doing something like that.

There's a far-too-common perception that dishonesty is commonplace in the automobile business. This is just another example of what that dishonesty is. It's fraud being perpetrated by people like you on people in the business. Think about that the next time you start to criticize someone else. Think about what you're asking here.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), September 02, 2001.

I read the other threads about used car salespeople but wouldn't touch it with a 49 1/2 foot pole. I own a small used car/utility trailer/muffler shop business and I get so damn tired of people dumping on used car salespeople that I felt it wasn't worth my effort to try to educate anyone.

But this thread is a little different. I run what I consider to be a reputable business. Sure, every now and then a car I sell turns into a turd, but let's be realistic here. If all anyone can scrape together is $500, $1000, maybe $2000 for a used car, how can they realistically expect it to be in new condition? IT'S USED. Get real. And I know I"m just opening myself up for all the 'Oh no I spent $5000 on a car and it died two days later, etc." stories. So instead of answering those, which I have no intention of addressing, I would instead like to explain what I tell my customers to do when evaluating a used vehicle.

First, drive it without abusing it. Most people think if they take a car on a test drive they should floor the crap out of it to make sure the engine is good. That may and may not be a good way to test an engine, but it may in fact land you in a lawsuit if you return it to the dealer with a thrown rod, spun bering, burned transmission, etc. Drive it the way you normally would. In most cases used cars are 5- 10 or 12 years old with over 100k--they're not NEW cars. (I drive a 1989 Ford F350 diesel crew cab that is in very good condition.)

Second, take it to a mechanic you trust for compression test, thorough checkup, etc. Maybe you have a good mechanic in your family, maybe you have a friend with a shop, if nothing else call a mechanic you've heard is good and see how much they charge for a check over. If they have a dynamomter/diagnostic equipment, that's better still. And this is VERY important--if the dealer balks at letting you take the car for a checkup, LEAVE. He's hiding something and you probably will waste your money.

Third, in most states, when you buy a used car, you're buying it 'as is', and you'd better be sure it's really what you want. Most dealers, myself included, are willing to help out with any mechanical problems that develop within a reasonable amount of time after purchase, meaning they might split the cost of repair with you (remember, you bought it 'as is') or if you're financing, they may pay for the repair and add it on to the 'end' of your note, or you may pay an extra $20 a payment to be applied to repairs. But don't expect, if you buy an 1985 model pickup and work it for six months on the construction site, that the dealer will put in a new transmission for you.

As questions--any questions you can think of--about the car. Where did it come from? How long has the dealer had it? Ask if the dealer has the title (sometimes they don't have it if they have only had the car a few days) and if you can see it, and look for things like 'salvage title', 'rebuilt', etc., check the mileage on the title and the date that title was issued and see if things make sense or not. Look at the chain of reassingments on the back of the title-- has it changed hands several times over the last few months (might indicate a less than desirable unit.) Ask if the dealer has made any repairs to it. Anything you can think of.

The 'Lemon Law' does not apply to used vehicles, as many people think it does. It only applies to new vehicles that are factory defective.

Having said all that, there are used car dealers out there who do not sit around greedily rubbing their hands together, thinking up ways to screw people out of money. I don't do that, and that's probably why I"m still in business while so many dealers around me come and go. And I could come up with several other businesses where deception is also rampant--any city/county/state government office, any attorney, any insurance company, home repair companies, ac/heating repair companies, paint and body shops, mechanic repair shops, real estate agencies... get the picture? Hope this helped someone out there. Caveat emptor, as with anything else you spend your money on.

-- HannahMariaHolly (hannahholly@hotmail.com), September 02, 2001.

No you don't sign any contract. Quite a few come in and are gone within weeks, even days when they realize it's not for them or see the work involved to make decent money. Dealers are constantly hiring, not just because of high turnover, but because it's worth paying you basically minimum wage in hopes you'll bring friends and family in to buy cars. Many new employees themselves end up buying a car and quite a few at least bring in 1 or 2 friends or family members so that ends up covering the dealerships cost of paying you. They already know 9 out of 10 won't last 3 months. It virtually costs them nothing. Training varies from dealership to dealership, some hardly train at all.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), September 02, 2001.

Um, Gary, I think you're making a BIG assumption that Soni is thinking about DOING this. Perhaps she is only asking out of interest. Or perhaps she is thing about it. But I don't see anything in her post that says that she wants to give it a try herself.

-- zip (sldkdj@hotmail.com), September 02, 2001.

Zip,

Perhaps, but I think I read it the way most reasonable people would. It certainly sounded like more than a hypothetical to me.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), September 03, 2001.

I had a neighbor (who was also a distant cousin of my wife) who was a car salesman. We were young, newly married and couldn't afford much of a car. I asked him to keep on the lookout for a cheap reliable car for me. Several months went by (I thought he had forgotten) and he pulled in with a dismal looking Chevy. The old car ran good, and I bought it from him at a fair price to both of us. I asked him if there was any type of warrantee, and he said, "I guaranty that if this car falls in half the first time you drive it, both halves belong to you!" I had good luck with the old car, and dealt with him exclusively until his death. There ARE honest car salesmen - you just have to cull out the duds until you find them.

-- Paul (hoyt@egyptian.net), September 04, 2001.

Paul,

That's the famous '50-50 Warranty' you got. Another classic is the '30/30 Warranty' offering. With that your warranty lasts 30 seconds or 30 feet, whichever comes first. ;o)

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), September 06, 2001.

I ran across this on the Internet: (Personally, I think one is still better to go with a 2-3-year-old, low mileage trade-in. There are still people who buy a new car on a regular basis, often dealing repeatedly with the same dealer. However, don't buy anything in which the dealer won't give you the name and phone number of the previous owner so you can talk directly to them.)

Negotiating the best deal

Know your target price and be ready for dealer maneuvers.

Before you head for the dealership you will have already done your homework, so you will know the dealer's invoice price, whether rebates or dealer incentives are available, and your target price, as well as where you plan to start bidding. You want to start the bidding as low as you reasonably can, but not so low that you will seem like an uninformed buyer just making a low-ball offer.

Pull together a folder showing your data and sources on these details where you can readily refer to them yourself or show them to the salesman.

At the showroom. Establish quickly that you are a serious buyer, not a browser. If you come across as just shopping, the salesperson will be eager to move on to a likelier sale. Don't say: "I'm looking at the Ford Taurus." Say instead: "I plan to buy a Ford Taurus LX within the next two weeks and I know pretty much how I want it equipped. I will buy where I get the best price. Let's talk about it."

That keeps you in control. The salesman wants to know as much about you as possible to start spotting potential profit points. Stay pleasant, but just turn away questions and say: "We can talk about me later. Let's talk about price."

Focus on the invoice price. As soon as you can, try to switch the discussion away from the MSRP, or list price to how much you intend to bid over the dealer's invoice cost. Bring out your Internet printout to show you have done your research on this. The salesman may well say: "That is not the right invoice price for the car." He or she may in fact know less than you do since traditional dealer training focuses on the MSRP and many dealers do not give salesmen the invoice prices. Say: "This is the invoice price for the car I want with the equipment I want." Show him your printout.

Start low. Though your target is $200 above invoice, you need to leave room for the dealership to budge you a little. So start out bidding at the invoice price on a car like the Taurus, where a rebate signals you to negotiate hard. You know you are entitled to the $500 consumer rebate that was offered recently, but don't bring that up yet. If that $500 had been a dealer instead of a consumer sales incentive payment, you would start out bidding to try to capture at least half that money. In that case, you would bid $300 below invoice and make it clear how you got that figure. "Since the dealership stands to get a $500 payment from Ford as a sales incentive, $300 below invoice seems fair."

He who hesitates loses. At this point, the salesman is likely to say something like: "I think this is way too low, but I will take your offer to my sales manager and see what I can do for you." He or she may not even intend to talk to the sales manager, but plans to keep you waiting in the glassed-in office to pressure you into a higher offer before even seeking approval. Tell him or her you do not intend to wait long. Then don't just sit there. Wander around the showroom or go outside to look at other cars. That usually brings the salesman back quickly. It's likely that he will bring the news that your initial offer was not good enough. At this point, if you started the bidding at the invoice price, agree to $100 over invoice.

(Some dealers were known to put hidden microphones in these cubicles to listen to what couples were saying while they waited. Tell them you can only wait ten minutes and then leave if he isn't back with the counteroffer, or do go out into the lot. - Ken)

If you get it, take it. If the dealership has a car in the color and equipment you want, and the salesman offers $200 over invoice, accept the offer. If not, get the best offer and take it to another dealer. If the second dealer beats the original offer, keep the competition going -- play it back to the first dealer. When you hit your target or come as close as you think you can, agree on the price. Now, and not before, is the time to talk about a trade-in. You already will know what your car is worth from checking local ads and looking up your model on Websites such as Edmunds.com and the Kelley Blue Book. If your car is a popular model in good condition and you are sticking with the same brand, you might match or slightly beat that price with your new-car dealer who sees potential profit in selling your used car. If the trade-in offer is a good one, say yes. If not, plan to sell it yourself or take it to the used-car lot of other dealer for a price quote.

(I've heard the advice not to drive the car you are planning to trade- in to the lot. While you are with one salesman, someone else is looking its value up in the Blue Book or someplace. - Ken)

Once your price and trade-in are set, you still have to finalize the deal. In our next section, we tell you how to close.

Closing the deal

Don't let your guard down at this crucial moment or you might close out your savings.

The salesman may call it "doing the paperwork" or some similarly innocuous description. But the finance manager you are about to meet hopes to boost dealer profits at your expense with attractive- sounding offers of mechanical and financial add-ons. In most cases, just say no. But there are some exceptions.

If you already have financing approved, just say so and you can avoid the financing pitch. The one exception: If you already know that the manufacturer is sponsoring a promotional deal with really low rates.

The next pitch you are likely to hear is for an extended warranty. Whether you want to consider this depends on how long you expect to keep the car. If it is the three years or less that matches the typical warranty, reject it immediately. If, however, you are almost sure you will keep your car for five years or more, you might consider an extended warranty contract. Ask when the extended- warranty coverage kicks in and what it covers. (So-called "power train only" warranties, for instance may exclude expensive electronic repairs common in today's cars.) And an extended warranty can cost $400 to $1,200. Also be sure you know how long the manufacturer's warranty runs. Volkswagen and Hyundai extend power train coverage for 10 years and luxury models Lexus and Infiniti for six to eight years.

The latest vogue in add-ons (replacing rustproofing now that almost all new cars are rustproof to start with) is security etching. Having your vehicle identification number etched into the glass on your windows may, as claimed, make your car somewhat less likely to be stolen. But it is certainly not worth the $1,100 some dealers are charging.

Buying on the Web

Web buying services can be a boon when buying a car, if you know a good deal when you see one.

Auto-by-Tel, the leading online car-buying service, claims to have generated $26 billion in car sales in the year 2000. The service and its competitors, such as autoweb.com and Microsoft's carpoint.msn.com, must hold some attraction for car shoppers.

The main attraction is low hassle. You can go to one of these sites, see the MSRP and invoice costs, and, if you are ready, fill in exactly the model you are looking for and your Zip code and possibly your e-mail address. You then will get a phone call or e-mail from a dealership offering a fixed, no-haggle price. If that offer is as low as $100 or $200 over dealer's invoice (and if they have a model and color you want), you have struck a great deal with a minimum of hassle.

The drawback: Most Internet services guarantee participating dealers exclusive territory. So while you will almost always get a good price with Web services, you may not get the best price that results from competitive bidding.

If you want to use the Web to help you do your own shopping, General Motors' gmbuypower.com lets you see what specific cars local dealers have and negotiate by e-mail if you wish.

If you want to be sure you are getting the best of competing bids, you might want to hire a service that shops for you. Started as 800- number telephone services and now with websites as well, these shoppers will, for a fee, find the best available deal near your home:

AutoAdvisor: $247 to locate and negotiate for your car communications only over the Internet. $637 for more comprehensive service over the telephone. $457 for comprehensive service over the Internet (800-326- 1976)

CarQ: $475 full-service fee (800-517-2277)

CarBargains: $190 for competing bids from local dealers (800-475- 7283)

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 09, 2001.