The thought just occurred to me that with the rapid improvement in digital of late and the falling prices of digital SLRs, are more EOS film bodies in the offing, or will the next generation be digital. I guess more specifically for the near term are we going to see something between the Elan 7 (or 7e) and the EOS 3? There's a monetary gap there, but right now, I think, the levels of camera are on par with Nikon (Rebel 2000 = N65; Elan 7 = N80; EOS 3 = F100; and EOS 1V = F5 -- by "-" I don't mean comparable by quality, just by level of use, entry level through top level pro). What do you think?

-- Tim Fisher (tfisher@beachin.net), August 20, 2001

Answers

there will always always always be film SLRs. at least as long as any of us are concerned. from what i hear, canon makes new cameras in little cycles of 3-5 years, replacing old models. the one that seems to be due up, in my mind, for replacement is the EOS 5 (A2) which is between the elan 7 and 3 like you said.

-- peter bg (pbg333@hotmail.com), August 21, 2001.

P.S. I'm more worried about what they'll do after they have 26 versions of the EOS-1 and run out of letters for the suffix.

-- peter bg (pbg333@hotmail.com), August 21, 2001.

Every time I say this I get flamed, but I'll say it again. The EOS 5/A2e WAS replaced. It's called the EOS 3! There is NO other relacement in the works. Well, actually, there is always a relpacement in the works, but they will probably call it the EOS 2 or something.

Just look at Canon's international naming scheme. The 5000, 500, 50 and 5 were all replaced with the 3000, 300, 30 and 3. (The 1(x) is always going to be a #1 something.)

Also look at Canon's pricing. The last I looked the 300 was about $250 the 30 about $450 the 3 about $850 and the 1V about $1500. A little less than doubling for each level up.

Also the 5/A2e was a lot more when it was introduced ($700) than it is today ($500). I think the only reason they are still available is they are just getting rid of old stock.

Okay, flame away...

-- Jim Strutz (j.strutz@gci.net), August 21, 2001.

I agree Jim. Canon have had a very logical naming sequence since the T series. i.e. T50, T70, T80, T90 (ignoring the wildcard T60 which was launched at a much later date than the rest of the range). These models, although varying wildly in terms of success were also priced logically aswell. I imagine that this has developed though more integrated marketing techniques being employed over recent years. You can even see this logic creeping in before the T series with the AE1, A1 and F1.

This process reflects the current international naming sequence that we see today: 3000, 300, 30 and 3 (plus 1).

How will they fit another model in between the 30 and the 3? Maybe we will see a 3.0? Then again maybe we won't!

Long live the film camera..........

-- Sam Hassall (samhassall@aol.com), August 21, 2001.

yeah you guys are right. it was my reflex to say EOS A2 will be replaced because it seems so far removed from the 3 in performance. but that numbering stuff of course makes sense. my point still stands about letter suffixes.

-- peter bg (pbg333@hotmail.com), August 21, 2001.

What about the rumored EOS 5N? It's said to sport 7 cross AF sensors, ECF, E-TTL and interchangeable film and digital backs. Well it sounds like a good idea, especially if it only costs a little more than the current EOS 5. Probably the accessory digital back will be more than the camera.

-- Puppy Face (doggieface@aol.com), August 21, 2001.

Puppy Face,

An EOS 5N such as you describe sounds like a dream camera. Then again, the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM was a long standing dream that has become reality. Maybe there's hope for such an ideal body yet. A film body specifically designed to accept a digital back would rock! It could automatically lock open the shutter, disable motor drive, etc. Even more ideal, the film back could be a full frame CCD or CMOS sensor (while we're dreaming & all)!

At this point -- and perhaps more likely -- I'd really love to see an updated 3, i.e. an EOS-3N. If it were able to incorporate all of the advancements of the 7E (faster & more precise ECF, diopter adjustment, Focus point selector arrows within the command dial, etc.) while maintaining it's own very unique capabilities (AF with up to f/8 lenses, 7 cross type sensors, fastest AF of all EOS bodies) -- then I'd just skip the Ellan 7E and save up. Before I wake up, let's add features from the EOS-1v, like EOS Link Software & more custom functions! And why not bring back the integrated near IF emmitter (can be disabled via custom function, of course)? And give it a super user-friendly LCD interface like Minolta's Maxxim 7! Man, I'm just getting warmed up! I'd better quit while I'm ahead. :-)

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), August 21, 2001.

Jim, you can say that the EOS 3 is the replacement for the A2 and Canon can say that the 3 is the replacement for the A2, but this working photographer and 6-year A2 user says the 3 is *not* a replacement for the A2. Nothing Canon currently makes has the combination of virtues that make the A2 such a great tool for day-in, day-out professional work.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), August 21, 2001.

Yeah, I like my A2 too. Nice camera. But I still don't think there will be a replacement for it that fits in between the 30/Elan 7 and the 3.

-- Jim Strutz (j.strutz@gci.net), August 21, 2001.

The 3-5 year development cycle for 35mm film cameras has worked well. It is NOT going to cut it in the digital realm, at least in the next several years while technology and cost structure change rapidly.

Canon recently announced the Powershot G2 with 4 Megapixel image capability, surpassing that of the D30. (The G1 came out about a year before.)

Just speculating, but with that as an example I would think that Canon would follow a similar release strategy for EOS digital bodies. Hopefully the design has kept modularity and upgradability in mind, so that an upgrade to the electronics could be offered without the cost of a major redesign. The strategy would be to offer a redesigned body on the traditional 3-5 year cycle with electronics upgrade releases along the way. (And it would be even nicer for the user if the older version within a release could be retrofitted with the upgraded electronics package, but that's probably wishful thinking.)

My own very unscientific anecdotal evidence is that I've had conversations with Canon users switching to Nikon because of the D1 models. I haven't seen anything official on their strategy, but it's clear Canon is well aware of the much faster market dynamics we've seen with digital cameras the last several years (evidence the quick upgrade from G1 to G2), with an annual doubling of capability at the same price, a digital imaging exhibition of Moore's Law.

If EOS digital is to succeed product development cycle times must be faster than 3-5 years. A lot faster.

-- Rod Nygaard (rod.nygaard@boeing.com), August 22, 2001.

Tim,

In response to your question about whether Canon will stop producing 35mm film bodies because of digital – I’d say it’s an unequivocal “Absolutely not!” At least, not for many, many years to come.

Although digital cameras in general, and digital SLR’s in particular, are increasing in sophistication they still have a very long way to go to even come close to replacing film. Even then, I’d see the slow phasing out of smallest negative sizes to largest. APS will fall, then 35mm (except for us die-hard enthusiasts), 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ …. Can you imagine a 5 x7 or 8 x 12 CCD or CMOS sensor?

What digital has going for it is: Convenience. The ability to directly port images to your computer (with no lag for processing, like film) and edit it in PhotoShop, then send it off to a bureau or print it on your personal color printer.

What it lacks is:

1. Resolution (even the 6 MP cameras coming don’t come close to fine films) 2. Dynamic range (may match slide films, but doesn’t yet come close to print films) 3. Capacity (high capacity digital media, like IBM’s 1 GB Microdrive cost upwards of $500 US – for just one CF II module. If you’re traveling in the bush, you could carry a whole lot of rolls of film, but likely can’t afford a whole lot of CF modules). 4. Print quality (even though color printers are getting nicer all the time, prints on photographic paper from slides or negatives still rule -- especially when it comes to large size prints).

I’m sure there’s more pros & cons, but that should do for a quick run- down.

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), August 22, 2001.

Reponding to just a piece of this topic...that concerning the EOS 3 being the replacement for the EOS 5/A2/A2E; the EOS 5 I bought new about 3 months ago was manufactured in December of 2000. That's almost 2 years *after* the EOS 3 was introduced. You'd think Canon would have the good sense to quit making something that was replaced.

-- Gary Russell (gr_russell@earthlink.net), August 22, 2001.

Jim,

You were right when you thought that you'd be stirring up a hornet's nest! :-)

Gary,

The A2/A2e (EOS 5) is still around becuase good photographers such as yourself keep it in demand, it sits at the right price point (now in contention with the Elan 7), and it is a good design. One must admit however that it is getting a bit long in the tooth, and could do with an update -- no?

The fact that it has a brighter viewfinder, higher top shutter speed, PC flash socket, and slightly better low light AF make for a hard choice between it and the Elan 7.

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), August 22, 2001.

Indeed you're right Hung, the EOS 5/A2/A2E does have some mileage on it and it's dated technology, but still a heck of a camera. I could write volumes on what Canon could do to upgrade it but still retain it's "character"...but I'll spare you ;-)

I found out too what you mean about better low-light AF; I was (in my amateur way) shooting a niece's first professional concert last weekend and started using a 1v and 70-200 f/2.8 for some available light shots of the stage. Because the "available light" was mostly "not available", the lens was often hunting wildly. As the 1v is pretty new I had not yet compared it with the EOS 5 but did finally put the lens on the -5 and sonofagun, got much better AF lock immediately. Go figure. I did have a heck of a time trying to see the LCD read-outs on the -5 however without that being illuminated (one of my upgrade ideas).

Maybe I can "relate" to the -5 better...like me, getting older but hanging in there.

-- Gary Russell (gr_russell@earthlink.net), August 23, 2001.

As for sizes of digital imagers, there are already several "large format" digital imaging backs for 6x6 and larger cameras that pro photographers use for fashion and ad photography. It's not like they are not available, but it's only money ... So, the "full-size" pro- quality digital imagers for 35mm is only a matter of time and price- point. I strongly suspect Canon will be there soon with one using their new CMOS technology as used in the D30.

-- Bruce Craig (birdphotographique@yahoo.com), August 23, 2001.