GOV. Control/Schools

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

Is there any better way for the Gov. to control the future than to control the young minds of today? public schools ?

-- Nathan Harris Sr. (barnyard_mini@yahoo.com), August 18, 2001

Answers

Response to GOV. Control

Thats why many people have begun to refer to them as "Government schools" rather than public (true community) schools. The Feds call all the shots these days.

-- charles (clb@dixienet.com), August 18, 2001.

Response to GOV. Control

Why do you think so many families (including my own) are turning to home schooling? My girls and I are loving it!

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), August 19, 2001.

Response to GOV. Control

Many people would argue that the media has much more control than the government. Many parents can't control their kids, so I doubt the government could. Homeschooling? Perhaps school is like a pond. Put fresh fish in a polluted pond and the fish ain't so fresh anymore.

-- Yup (Yup@nospam.com), August 19, 2001.

Response to GOV. Control

The "government" doesn't run local schools, the local school board does. If you don't like the quality of education or focus students receive then appear before every board meeting to express your concerns. If still not satisifed, run for the school board yourself. If you don't want to become involved, then pretty well sit back and shut up.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 19, 2001.

Response to GOV. Control

I find that this question is also answered by a question asked yesterday regarding grants. The Government takes control not by force but by the publics demand for it. ONly when the individual realizes his rights and is willing to tell the Government that there is no need of social security , farm aid, home heating credit etc etc will you and truley live with government control. We live in a country in which individual rights take first place but then we are joined to protect those rights of others. The government in it's present form makes us believe we need them to control. We accept this because of the cookies they hand out and believe we are free. 1984 did come we were just asleep when it happened.

-- William A. Rutter (wrutter@uniotel.net), August 19, 2001.

Response to GOV. Control

Please orgive a typo in my email adress which I have corrected with this

-- William A. Rutter (wrutter@uniontel.net), August 19, 2001.

Response to GOV. Control

Please orgive a typo in my email adress which I have corrected with this email wrutter@uniontel.com

-- William A. Rutter (wrutter@uniontel.net), August 19, 2001.

Response to GOV. Control

I would agree somewhat to what Ken S. has said but, Ken does not the higher State and Federal governments use school population quotas to control the amount of money schools get? They do here and with that they actually control what activities take place,whether new books are bought and such like. We get letters twice a school year from our kids schools reminding us to make certain our kids are in school on such and such days because of government head count them days.

-- TomK (mich) (tjk@cac.net), August 19, 2001.

Tom K:
Yes, but that is really outside the question of whether or not the "Government" intentionally tries to exert control through indoctrinating "young minds" as the thread seems to asset.
I do not know if the federal government counts noses, but am pretty sure the state does, at least here in TN. Reason is simple, to try to allocate funds as equably as possible, and a population based ratio is pretty reasonable.
From my observation the federal government sets overall desired standards or goal, such as is being pushed by the President in his results based inititive. At least in TN that is also being pushed. To the extent the tests used to measure results are created by the state, they do influence what is taught on the local level, but it is only in certain areas, such as math, reading, social sciences and one other. Even then, you only have to pass these at the ninth grade level to graduate.
Are kids being brainwashed by publicly funding schools. I don't have any in the system so don't know, but sincerely doubt it. I do know the head of the local school board, one Junior High principle and several teachers. I sincerely believe they are trying to give students the best education possible within the resources provided. Are they 'shaping young minds', to an extent yes, but probably to a far, far less extent than the home and general environment. A staple of most kids TV programming is violence. Does anyone really think that doesn't influence their future outlook? What impact does the glorifed wrestling program have with their biggest and baddest, win at any cost approach the public now eats up. The dress and appearance (e.g., multiple body piercings) of many young people today frankly appalls me, but I guess that is part of the purpose.
I also frankly doubt you will find a 'Brainwashing 101' class in any public school.
Sorry, but IMHO, the blame needs to be laid at someone else's door that that elusive 'government'. Where, at the feet of John Q. Public. This is a Democracy and your elected officials give you what you elect them for, whether it be the President, Congress, State level or even County level.
By the way, I have run for County Commission for my district. Came in eighth in a seven person race.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 19, 2001.

< Ken,
I have to disagree with you on most. I hate to do so having received your book. Very good so far. Thank you much by the way.
Anyway,
I agree that school issues are not JUST the teachers problem. First one to admit that. There is plenty of blame to go around, and parents have a lot to say in many cases. Many do not care what happens until it's too late. Then when their kid fails, they complain to administrator's who cave in.
Have two kids in public school. They go because we can't afford to send them to private school or we'd do so in a heartbeat. They used to go to private school in another state. The quality of teaching was far superior, while the level of pay, was quite inferior. The cry of not enough money in schools, is a bogus one.
Classroom sizes in the 20's for both children. When I went to school, most classes were high 20's or low 30's, so I don't think that's the real problem.
Part of the problem are administrator's. They "should" have enough intestinal fortitude to say your kid flunked and will have to take the grade again. That doesn't happen much. Couple examples below will give you an indication why.
Teacher passing 95% of his class even though 75% failed his course? Told me, so I have first hand knowledge.
Our school district thought that 50% of the students should be CODED for SPEC Ed. What the kids need is a bit of forcefulness from their teacher, and administrator's that back them up.
Administrator's not suspending troublemaking students, thereby allowing interruptions in class. Not that this didn't happen before, but it is much worse now.
Fourth grade TEACHER'S who do not believe spelling is important. Know because I was told by the teacher's myself regarding my child. We gave her spelling on our own.
OBE --- Need I say more? I don't think so.
How bout Phonics? Seemed to work for most kids. My father only had a 6th grade education, but could read better than most kids I know.
Taxpayers lied to about a new 34 Million school. Told 1500 students would be attending. Senior class is less than 1,100, and only one class in the forceable future will be more than 1,200. Told another school district would be coming to join us, and that's why we need the extra room.
Guess what....I know all the teachers, principle and some of the town selectmen as I worked for that school district as a second job. (computers) They NEVER had any intention of coming into our school district. They told our district that from the word go, but our district lied outright.
Calculator's at the 6th grade? To figure out multiplication tables and fractions?
Kids smoking dope, teachers and administrator's knowing, but doing nothing about it.
Sex inside the school -- YES that happened, and nothing done.
Distruction of computer equipment, but nothing happening except warnings. Same kids destroy equipment...again...nothing happens. My computer Lab, so I know first hand. Most kids when given a stern warning did not harm the equipment.
Schools allowing failure in core subjects, but allowing sports activities to continue. Happening in NH town right now.
I remember being tossed from the team until my grades came up in ALL core studies.
A NH school district PAYING kids to attend summer school! Yes...that's true as well. Part of the GOALS 2000 program.
Having worked in school system, I will say unequivocally, that they ARE indoctrination vehicles. Definately a push towards subject matter that does not talk much about how and why the country was founded, but talks a lot more about Marilyn Monroe.
Federal Mandates and 6% funding. Should be ZERO funding for schools. Not constitutional, unless there's an education clause that someone can point out to me somewhere.
< Not really as populations have much different income ratios based. There are many DONOR towns, (as NH is learning) which isn't flying very well up here. I'm sure you understand this concept in Tennessee.
< While I can agree to a point on the voilence on television and other stuff, there is too much to go into without books being posted.
Talk of GAIA, which is a religion in itself. However, you can't talk about Christianity for the most part.
Glorifying the UN, Earth Day and thereby Marxist ideals IS indoctrination.
Ample evidence now that the UN was involved in feeding and supplying the Communist Vietcong during Nam. No mention of that in subject material.
Daughter last year had to do work on Unions in the US. No subject material in the book in any way told about the BAD side of Unions. Like money laundering, killing etc... only the good stuff.
Not enough emphasis is placed on STUDIES like Math, Science, History, English and reading. A large portion of students are unable to read at grade level. Many two grades below. How do they move on?
Dewey --- Known Socialist as leader of education movement. Still is.
< Your right....at least not directly. Although liberal teaching methods have lead to a decline in scores. Many children have a hard time constructing simple sentences and thoughts. Can't count change in stores either. That has a lot to do with the yearly "new concept" approach to schooling.
This year, my youngest daughter had 3 different type of maths. I taught her myself.
NEA has socialist agenda, and their more worried about "understanding" instead of teaching. Let me worry about teaching my kids to understand other people. Teacher's do NOT have a market on tolerance by any stretch of the imagination.
Schools teach that guns are EVIL, and gun control laws are good. Guns are not evil. People that use guns incorrectly could be considered evil, but not the gun.
<< We are a Republic, and I didn't elect anyone to raise my taxes, nor give more to an education system that is hopelessly broken.
Also, written letters, attended meetings, talked to teachers etc...nothing good has happened.
Lew

-- lew ricker (hsppub@aol.com), August 19, 2001.

I agree with the assertion that the responsibility lies at the feet of the public. When my daughter was in school, I read in the handbook that parents need the principle's permission to keep their kids out of school, even if only a day, for family or religious reasons. I brought that up to many parents and first they were surprised, then they were angry, then they said 'who cares? I'd like to see them stop me'. They brushed it off. Many mothers celebrate the first day back to school. Too many parents don't make the effort to know what or how their kids are being taught, just as long as the kids are out of their hair. Many are too busy.
Do I think that there is a 'conspiracy' to control the young minds of today? Yes. Look at Goals 2000: federal funding for schools hinges on enacting the Goals 2000 and other federally mandated programs. Where does the federal government get these mandates? the UN. Where does our curriculum come from? Russia. Yes, Russia. It was one of the conditions included in arms deals when the communist government of Russia supposedly collapsed. Check out the book: The Deliberate Dumbing down of America, for copies of the documents proving this. The author has been working in the school systems of Maine and saw this all from it's beggining in the 1970's. The local superintendants are trained to be representatives for this program, the author went through the training herself and saved all the materials.
My conclusion is that because so many people have fallen asleep and don't want to be bothered, the way was left open for the stealing of our children's minds.
When I pulled my oldest daughter out of the public school system, I did not have access to any of the above information, I just had a sense that something was not right, especially after reading the handbook and hearing the results of the DARE indoctrination amongst other little things. The more I learn, the more grateful I am that I gave into my daughter's request to homeschool. I honestly didn't want the responsibility, but for her, I did it. I will do it for my other two as well.
Another option for those who cannot homeschool is the seperation of school and state movement. You can learn more at: http://www.sepschool.org
I would definately prefer to have my kids taught by professional teachers, but as long as the public school system is in the hands of our government and the government stays on the path it's taking, I'll take my chances with homeschooling.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), August 19, 2001.

Where, oh where, do these ideas about the UN come from?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), August 19, 2001.

1. Yes our children are taught that Guns are evil. (They are tools)
2. Our children can be spanked at school BUT if a parent spanks a child its considered "child abuse".
3. In a paper we received from elementary school we were warned that if we kept our child out of school with-out permission Social Services would be called in to investigate us. (any parent of that school system)
4. We are a part of the PTO (Parent Teachers Organization) Funds are often used for trivial things and any real concerns "Tabled till next meeting".
5. The Federal has a direct say in the type of books that the students can use. We were appalled at the book our 7 year old brought home. It seems that "JANE HAS TWO MOM'S" is acceptable but "TOM SAWYER" isn't.
I know this is a difficult issue to address. All in all I believe that the Government (Federal, State & local) have to much input into the way our schools are run. BTW KEN, The School Board here allows 15 minutes for all objections, concerns, suggestions to be heard. They meet once every 6 weeks. There are often 10 people wanting to address the Board and usually only 2 get to speak.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), August 19, 2001.

Why is everything in itallics?
Just wondering.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), August 19, 2001.

Gov does have a say in what goes on .Many small rural school districts depend on federal money to get by .Also lawyers have a big say in school since they are the idiots who help sue them when they won't let Johnny back in school for fighting {6th time in a year} .Or sue them because they did not go through 105 steps before removing or discplining the litlle brats .It's a said state when the misbehaved children have more of a say than the ones who actually go to school to learn .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 19, 2001.

Ken, I agree with you up to a point about getting involved, but even when you do, either by volunteering or running for office or whatever, there are often too many people out there who can outvote you. I also feel that there is something dreadfully wrong when you feel you HAVE to volunteer because the schools are in such a bad mess. And what other profession do you know of where it is considered okay to get others to do the grunt work of your job?
Your children are only young once--there is no shame in taking them out of a failing system and schooling them at home. They are YOUR children- -not the state's. Take advantage of the public schools for what they CAN provide, which is extracurricular sports and activities (band, debate, etc.) and driver's education if your district still provides it. You're paying taxes for those schools, get your money's worth.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), August 19, 2001.

test

-- Yup (Yup@nospam.com), August 19, 2001.

Yup, test is not the answer.In Va,kids done so bad on S.O.L.tests that they need to change the test. Point....Lower standards.

-- Nathan Harris Sr. (barnyard_mini@yahoo.com), August 20, 2001.

What I mean by lower standards is It is better to Kill the messenger than to deal with the real problem.

-- Nathan Harris Sr. (barnyard_mini@yahoo.com), August 20, 2001.

Nathan I think that Yup meant "test" to see if they had changed the itallics back to normal. :o)

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), August 20, 2001.

John Hill, as I mentioned, the ideas about the UN are documented. research is where I got it from. http://www0.un.org/cyberschoolbus/ourlives/unesco.asp http://www.unausa.org/programs/curricdev.htm
UN requiring observatory for school systems in member countries- http://www.unesco.org/education/efa/global_co/action_plan/draft.shtml
Discussion with links to documents that I cannot access because I haven't reinstalled my adobe acrobat reader since my computer crash- http://www.sierratimes.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi? forum=7&topic=40 Goals 2000(already law)-http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z? c103:H.R.1804.ENR: International-http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D? c103:1:./temp/~c103QLK7OM:e243702:
and- http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D? c103:1:./temp/~c103QLK7OM:e243773: Notice the references to their interest in your child's charector.
Here's where you'll see the goals 2000 directly linked in interest with the UN in an effort to create support for the UN and changes in our culture and a national park(?)- http://www.unpresidio.org/aboutus.html
How about the goal to implement behavioral changes in children and all adults, "breaking with traditional mindsets", and "building a culture of cooperative thinking and doing it at all levels and among all actors involved"(which is established as families, media, NGO's, etc). How much more clear can they be that they plan on monitoring us at every level under the guise of "children's rights" to literacy, education, and safety?- http://www.unesco.org/education/litdecade/discussion.html

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), August 20, 2001.

Epona, may I ask if you have ever been out of the USA? Have you ever been to a country that is adversely affected by UN policy? Do you know who the members of the UN Security Council are? Do you know anything about the current range of Security Council resolutions and do you know which members press for their enforcement?

-- john hIll (john@cnd.co.nz), August 20, 2001.

John Hill: yes, yes, yes, and yes. However, the point being discussed is wether or not the government is trying to shape the world's future by attempting to control the young minds of today and the public school system. The government itself admits this openly(if you know where to look and pay attention) as well as it's association and cooperation with the UN, as proven by their own documents and websites. The UN is perfectly open about it's intentions, as pointed out on their own websites and documents. If you'd like to start other threads on the politics of UN members, a thread on the UN's affect in each country, my travel experiences, or security councils, I'll see you there. Blessings, Epona

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), August 20, 2001.

Epona, As'Salaam Alaykum.
I am pleased to see that you are so well informed. I regret that I am unable to make any useful comment on UN influence, or any other aspect of US education (I assume it is the US system we are talking about?) however I would like to state that in my experience the rest of the world often sees the UN as dominated by the US including a perception that quite a bit of bullying goes on too.
So of course I find it intrigueing that I often see supposedly US citizens referring to the UN as some sort of international bogeymen.
No more from me for a few days as I will be travelling, but fortunately not in a country enduring UN embargoes.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), August 20, 2001.

John Hill, I think many Americans see the UN as a money pit (money goes out to help, but the poor who need it never see it, since the crooks who should have been removed from office long ago are living off it) and a boondoggle for so-called diplomats who can't get arrested for crimes they commit, because of "diplomatic immunity". I think the UN could completely disappear and very few would miss it, except of course those who draw paychecks from it.
As to how it relates to the school systems, last time I checked this was still the United States of America, and while I have no problem with my kids learning about other people and other cultures, I DO have problems with other countries/foreign organizations trying to influence our government and school systems. That is how they pay us back for helping them? How ungrateful is that?
Not everyone buys into the One World Government scenario, BTW, either.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), August 20, 2001.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ