According to the site, there are 767 members at this moment. I just checked and there are 19 members logged in. I have never seen more than 40 members logged in. Only a limited number of people post.

What do you think the numbers mean? Please note that this is not an attack on Y2k, just a real question. I am interested in how these thinks work. I know I would be booted from Y2k if I asked. Someone there told me to come here to ask the question.

Ultimate Cynic

-- Cynic (Ultimate Cynic@cyn.cyn), August 17, 2001

Answers

Depending on the time of day/night, there are anywhere from 30 - 90 people on the board. The high water mark is 124. On average, 1.2Gb per DAY of data is sent outbound from the server. The board averages about 20,000 page views per day.

And you are certainly free to go over there and ask any questions you wish. As long as you're civil, you'll never be banned. (Even Y2KPro hasn't been banned, nor has Flint or Jonathan Latimer.)

-- Dennis Olson (djolson@pressenter.com), August 17, 2001.

“As long as you're civil”

Which includes not making fun of the resident mutants over ‘mainstream’ stuff like Chemtrails, Crop Circles, and the mentally ill ramblings of Satanta. Heaven forbid that you might get arguementive with some of these lunatics….think I’ll pass.

-- No (way@jose.com), August 17, 2001.

Thank you Dennis:

This is part of a high school project. My question dealt with the percentage of members who post [not the number of people logged-on]. I am collecting that data, but I don't have an answer yet.

But once again, thanks for your kind response.

Ultimate Cynic

-- Cynic (Ultimate Cynic@cyn.cyn), August 17, 2001.

Which includes not making fun of the resident mutants...

Unfortunately (for you), it means "not making fun" of ANYONE. That is quite obviously beyond your mental and emotional power to comply with. Have fun with your Cro-magnon contemporaries over here at the "Spermatorium".

-- Dennis Olson (djolson@pressenter.com), August 17, 2001.

I make fun of the information all the time over there as ALF and I have never been banned. I don't pick on the people, just there info and sources. They pick back sometime by claiming I must be a paid .gov disinformation agent but that is about as far as it goes before I'm ignored or get tired of the discussion not going anywhere and go away from that thread. You just have to use the kind of language you would expect to be used around your grandmother or daughter and I for one don't think thats to much to ask for. If you want bar room language this place is always available.

-- Just Passin Through (Nobody@nowhere.com), August 17, 2001.

Have fun with your Cro-magnon contemporaries over here at the "Spermatorium".

Yessiree, Dennis, you set the example for the rest to follow. You demand politeness in your own backyard but won't extend it elsewhere. That's mighty hypocritical of you, sir. (And please, no childish retorts like "HE started it.")

Now everybody go to your rooms until supper.

-- Mother (Wolf@watching.com), August 17, 2001.

What do you expect from someone who spent $25K on 7 tons of rat food and a generator that his neighbor’s won’t let him run? Stick around Denny, you make a huge target.

-- Dennis ('need@baby'.Olson), August 17, 2001.

I'm sure he is just in rome doing as the romans do. Please follow his example by being polite and using less profanity when over at the other board.

-- Just Passin Through (Nobody@nowhere.com), August 17, 2001.

Fuck That!

-- Two (faced@hippo.crit), August 17, 2001.

People on the TB2K board can decide, when they register, if they want to be seen in that list on the bottom or not be when they are logged in. You chose it in your profile if you want to be "Seen" or not. With that said, there could be over 400 people logged in and you would only see 30 or 40 of them because would prefer to not be seen.

Personally I do not understand the need to attack members of that site simply because the views they have are different than yours. Is that not what your buddy algore preached? Diversity, love one another, everyone is equal?

If you do not like what someone has to say then simply don't go there. I view both this forum and that one as both have useful info on them.

After all.. are we all not after the same thing? DO we all get annoyed when reading the news? Do we not all want to change things? You people may want to change things your way and they may want to change things their way. Does that many anyone "Wrong"?

If you are going to preach try preaching to people who care cus I am sure that Dennis and the rest of tb2k does not. Instead why not funnel your energy into cleaning up this place and make it better?

Why not try to be more civil? I'm trying to figure out what this message board is really saying about contemporary communication.

I'm appalled by much of what goes on here. It's hard for me to believe that people can't discuss things in a more or less reasonable manner. But maybe that's just me.

Maybe all the yelling and insults serve as a safety valve for a deep anger that's brewing in this country. Or maybe all the coarse language and muddled reasoning is serving to "dumb down" the level of discourse in America. Worse, maybe the anger expressed through anonymity is serving to foster an even greater disregard and disrespect among people.

We've heard the arguments about how games, movies, music and the rest of the media are spawning a generation of blood-lusting hoodlums who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality. There are good arguments on both sides of the debate.

But that's a long-running discussion. I'm more curious about how mangled language, tortured communication and instant broadcast of our opinions is affecting us.

As a writer, I shudder when I read my email, surf the web and scan other message boards. I have never thought of grammar as holy writ. In fact, as a younger man, I thought most of it was BS (And I have some perfectly dreadful writing tucked away in drawers to prove it.) But, it seems to me, that unless there is some base level of agreement about how to use the written language, we can't communicate.

On a lot of boards (plenty of examples here) and in email there are long, rambling messages that eschew even the most basic principles of grammar. I'm not talking about the posts that have a word or two misspelled, or have run-on sentences, or which have mixed verb conjugations. I'm talking about the ones that read like mescaline-fueled gibberish.

Is this the best you folks can do?

-- X (x@x.com), August 17, 2001.

Well, now, Mr. X...

Never have I heard such a pathetic dissertation since that pussy Rodney King asked us all to just get along. Unless I woke up in Russia this morning culling thoughts and ideas that you don't agree with is censorship. You bunch of little panty-wastes over at TB2K will be drinking cool-aide any minute now the way I see it. Don't come around here telling us to clean up our house you little puke. Come back when you grow some balls.

-- George S Patton (JustKickin@ss.org), August 18, 2001.

George:

Although I frequent the "other" board most of the time, I do occasionally visit here.

I won't presume to advocate how anyone should behave here. This forum is much more free wheeling than the "other" board. As such, individuals have to determine their own filters, and read and respond as they see fit.

The "other" board has a different criteria for posts and poster responses. Although posts and responses here enjoy a greater freedom, posts and responses on the "other" board are subject to greater restrictions. Those restrictions are accepted by the participants, and expression of differing ideas have generally accepted constraints.

Those that accept those constaints are generally accepted on the "other" board. (There are exceptions, and I can't answer for those who couch antagonistic responses in polite language.)

From what I have read here, there are insightful and thought provoking topics and responses, and there are posts, and posters, that prompt me to visit occasionally. There are also posts, and responses, that I feel detract from those who take this forum seriously. Although I find this unfortunate, it is part and parcel of a freer and more unfettered medium of expession.

I hope that members of both boards appreciate the opportunities for expression that are presented, and the efforts of those that work so hard to maintain these options. I, for one, have found interesting and thought provoking ideas on both.

Sincerely, Greybeard7

-- Greybeard7 (Wolverine@Go.Blue), August 18, 2001.

George S Patton ,

My, my, my, aren't you just a perfect example of the resurgence of Neanderthal behavior in this country. You give credence to the theory that media and entertainment has managed to bring a decline in the character of young people in the last decade or so, especially the males. Unfortunately for you, having balls has nothing to do with functioning in a civilized society, except for the overload of rollercoasting testosterone that hits teenage boys during puberty and overrides the normal functioning of their brains. Acting like an ass, verbally abusing others and using (boring) bad language does not make you a "man".

It is self control over your behavior that shows manhood, not lack of control and displaying socially unacceptable (but legal) behavior.

Do you honestly believe anyone respects you for the way you post, which you define as possessing "balls"?

You poor little thing, you make such a joke of yourself.

First you moan and groan and complain about censorship, then you turn around and tell someone else that they cannot do something here, which in itself is censorship. Maybe when your testosterone gets to an adult level, your brain will start to function normally and you will start to use it.

Perhaps then you will see the lack of logic you displayed in your post.

You use the lack of censorship here to indulge yourself, hopefully when you mature you will understand that just because you "can" do something, you should.

Yes, you are free to say what you want to here, but it shows a lack of character to intentionally abuse that right. There are a lot of things you "can" do, which there are no laws or rules against, like taking a dump in your pants in public, but will you do it just because you "can"?

It is often the lack of self control that leads the responsible population of this country to rise up in irritation and demand "laws" and "rules" which limit the rights of everyone because of the actions of a few.

The "freedom" of the internet allows you to "say" whatever you want without having the people who read it having the ability to show you in "non-verbal" ways that they disapprove, which is normally what happens in person (unless you surround yourself with others with the same mentality as you). Perhaps the freedom from non-verbal feedback encourages you to pick your nose while typing away and you get your jollies from being able to do it, knowing no one can see you, unable to judge you.

Trying to get away with doing something you know you shouldn't do is a stage children go through. The majority of them outgrow it.

You show not all do.

Since your words are the only "clues" people can use on the internet to judge you, behavior like yours which push the limits of normal social acceptance gives people the impression that you probably indulge in other behaviors (such as picking your nose ) when no one is there to see you. On the web it is your words which define you.

Behavior you think of as "having grown balls", does not portray you as "having grown balls", it shows nothing "manly" about you. It shows you as a coward. It shows you as needing to have your ego reinforced. It does the opposite of what you think it does, it makes others picture you as a weak ego-ed, needy, attention seeking male who feels the need to prove his manhood, because he is insecure in it.

Unfortunatly you seem to have fallen for the "media portrayal of "manhood", much like they try to define a women by her physical appearance over all else.

You are sitting there going "Look at me, at how I act, it's MANLY because the TV (video games, movies, magazines, music videos, advertisements.... . .) tell me so!". Naively you have fallen for it so completely, you lack the maturity to do your own THINKING, to see the "propaganda" for what it is. A method of coercing you into spending money by buying into their definition of manhood.

Hey, it worked with cigarettes for over a century. The movie "Grease" when Olivia Newton John was shown smoking after she became a "bad girl" (and changed into a popular one), influenced a generation of girls who had been brought up knowing that smoking was harmful and distasteful, into smoking so they would be popular.

Bad language, Rude, abusive, and "socially unacceptable" behavior has been marketed as "manly", and the generation brought up on it believes it. Bad is good. Decent is wimpy. Assure your manhood by being as bad as you possibly can! The more extreme the better!

And you have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker. And then you actually have the nerve to expect others to follow a different set of standards towards you? How irrational is that? LOL

Personally, the impression I get about you from what you write is one of a male, late teens to early twenties (or emotionally stuck in that age group), sitting at his keyboard giggling over his own display of rancor (I'll show them!), actually believing it portrays his "big manhood", picking his nose, chugging pop or beer, farting and smiling over the sound and/or smell, often grabbing his balls with delight, giving them a good rub (for ego reinforcement) or even occasionally masturbating, trying to compensate for the mistreatment you have been told you are being forced to endure by dregs of society, the scum of the earth! You display a form anger which is usually brought on by fear.

Fear you don't even dare to admit to yourself, a fear created by the inability to resolve the conflict between reasoning of your subconscious and what you have been brainwashed into believing.

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 18, 2001.

Personally, the impression I get about you from what you write is one of a male....picking his nose, chugging pop or beer, farting and smiling over the sound and/or smell, often grabbing his balls with delight, giving them a good rub (for ego reinforcement) or even occasionally masturbating....

Oh golly! I must be a horrible person too!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 18, 2001.

Greybeard7

Fuck you

Cherri

Fuck You

-- George S Patton (JustKickin@ss.org), August 18, 2001.

Quit reinforcing your ego Unk.

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), August 18, 2001.

George S Patton HAHAHAHA oh im so hurt. Oh will I ever recover???

Oh no now you made me cry! Whatever will I do?

Grow up freak.

-- X (x@x.com), August 18, 2001.

LOL Unk! =)

-- (cin@cin.cin), August 18, 2001.

Ditto Unk.

Cherri I suggest you get off the computer, stick another pie in your mouth and buy a larger size moomoo - you fat cow.

-- (testosterone@big.balls), August 18, 2001.

That was nice Greybeard7. I hope you join us more often.

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 18, 2001.

Unk, all these behaviors while wearing a towel, flip-flops and duct tape? What a picture you paint, LOL. You are too much!

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 18, 2001.

Unk, You live in Florida. It is hot. Your balls get sweaty. You gotta scratch the itch it causes.

I cannot immagine you sitting over your keyboard giggling, but I may be wrong......

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 18, 2001.

Cherri --

Good Thing: I don't think you misspelled a single word in that post. Furthermore, your grammar is well-formed. Considering the sometimes disheveled nature of your posts, I am definitely impressed, and that's no joke. (claps)

Bad Thing: You are taking yourself far too seriously. You object to me "putting you in a box," and then you do precisely that to "George," who I don't take seriously for a moment. Are you exhibiting a double standard here? Surely you are not the final arbiter of who has been placed in a box and who has not.

-- Already Done Happened (oh.yeah@it.did.com), August 18, 2001.

not again...

-- helen covers her eyes (here@we.go), August 18, 2001.

Already Done Happened

Leave me out of your little pissing contest with Cherri you maggot. You took me seriously, and so did the Hun, in WW2. Whose gonna kick the slanty-eyed, dog-eating, needle-dicked Chinese when they come knocking at your door? You and pansies like you? Bull shit. Most of you people need a committee decision to decide what side of the toilet paper to wipe your ass on. When the slopes are at your door ready to blow away the men and boys and rape the wives and daughters what will your little feel-good focus group decide? You pussies are all missing the point.

Cherrie, ignore this asshole. Just because he can copy and paste your text and run it through spell check doesn't make him a Mensa.

At ease.

-- George S Patton (JustKickin@ss.org), August 18, 2001.

Already, Sorry I acused you of placing me in a box, I spoke (wrote) without thinking.

As for what I wrote, it took a all day yesterday and until 6 am this to write and rewrite it. Not continually, but I had it in my editor and worked on it whenever I had time. The original was rambling, saying the same things over and over and the sentences were garbled.

I'm no writer, but have read obsessively since I was 7 and know what it's supposed to look like.

What George S Patton wrote, expressing the belief that somehow "manhood" was defined by rudeness, brought together a concept I have been noticing (and disliking) for a long time.

I had watched a show one night that explained how MTV was completely controlled by the advertising media, even the most radical and extreme music was pushed for the sole purpose of profit. The gangsta rap full of it's white hate, kill the cops, female hatred has been packaged and promoted to sell things to kids. The bare midriff, bellybutton piercing, crotch thrusting young female singers are exploited to extremes just to sell products for young girls.

Kids are developing personalities and social attitudes based on decisions made in a boardroom where the bottom line is King with total disregard for the damage it may cause to society as a whole.

Am I the only one who has noticed that one of the tactics being used is "divide and conquer"? I find it odd that promoting hatred between the races is rather illogical considering the way society is today, yet minorities are bombarded with media that tells them they are being discriminating against like they were 50 years ago. Why? Because it sells. Whites are being fed a similar message, that every black teenage boy is the product of a crack smoking single teenage high school dropout mother who pops out babies year after year so she can et a $95.00 increase in her welfare check. That the boy is a cop hating, white hating, gang banger who sells drugs and exploits his "women", also a dropout with no future who would rather shoot you as soon as look at you.

Hey, feeding people these false realities sells, so why not exploit them to make a profit?

What doesn't sell is moderation, empathy, social conscience, consideration for others, all of the good qualities that have nothing to do with money and possessions. Society should be allowed to happen, not be manipulated without any concern for the results of their actions.

This isn't my area of expertise, but I see it happening. It really disturbs me. I can't help but feel pity for all the people who don't realize they are being manipulated so much.

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 18, 2001.

I guess I'm not the only one thinking along these lines (Thanks Lars)

CULTURE WARS

Notes From The Hip-Hop Underground

What does rap offer young people? Freedom from feelings.

BY STEELE
Saturday, March 31, 2001 12:01 a.m.

Think about it. If you were a slave, what sort of legend or myth would most warm your soul? One of the great legends in black American culture has always been that of the Bad Nigger. This figure flaunts the constraints, laws and taboos that bind a person in slavery. The BN is unbound and contemptuous, and takes his vengeance on the master's women simply to assert the broadest possible freedom. His very indifference to human feeling makes him a revolution incarnate. Nat Turner, a slave who in 1831 led an insurrection in which some 60 whites were massacred, was the BN come to life.

But for the most part, the BN is the imagination's compensation for the all-too-real impotence and confinement that slaves and segregated blacks actually endured. He lives out a compensatory grandiosity--a self-preening superiority combined with a trickster's cunning and a hyperbolic masculinity in which sexual potency is a vengeful and revolutionary force.

This cultural archetype, I believe, is at the center of rap or hip-hop culture. From "cop killer" Ice-T, Tupac Shakur and, today most noticeably, Sean "Puffy" Combs and Eminem (who is white), we get versions of the BN in all his sneering and inflated masculinity.

Having beaten gun and bribery charges in a high-profile New York trial, Mr. Combs--who has just announced that he wishes to be known, henceforth, as "P. Diddy"--is the baddest BN for the moment. A man with both the entrepreneurial genius and the fortune (estimated in the hundreds of millions of dollars) to live far above the fray, he has nevertheless tried to live out the BN archetype in a series of ego feuds, thuggish assaults, and late-night escapades that ought to bore a man of his talent and wealth.

Mr. Combs is caught in a contradiction. At the very least, he must posture, if not act out, BN themes, even as the actual condition of his life becomes conspicuously bourgeois. Rap culture essentially markets BN themes to American youth as an ideal form of adolescent rebellion. And this meeting of a black cultural archetype with the universal impulse of youth to find themselves by thumbing their nose at adults is extremely profitable. But the rappers and promoters themselves are pressured toward a thug life, simply to stay credible, by the very BN themes they sell. A rap promoter without an arrest record can start to look a lot like Dick Clark.

But the Puffys of the world cannot market to an indifferent youth. The important question is how the BN archetype--the slave's projection of lawless power and revenge--has become the MTV generation's metaphor for rebellion. And are conservatives right to see all this as yet more evidence of America's decline?

I think the answer to these questions begins in one fact: that what many of today's youth ironically share with yesterday's slave is a need for myths and images that compensate for a sense of alienation and ineffectuality.

Of course, today's youth do not remotely live the lives of slaves and know nothing of the alienation and impotence out of which slaves conjured the BN myth. Still, the injury to family life in America over the past 30 years (from high divorce and illegitimacy rates, a sweeping sexual revolution, dual-career households, etc.) may well have given us the most interpersonally alienated generation in our history.

Too many of today's youth experienced a faithlessness and tenuousness even in that all-important relationship with their parents. And outside the home, institutions rarely offer the constancy, structure, high expectations, and personal values they once did. So here is another kind of alienation that also diminishes and generates a sense of helplessness, that sets up the need for compensation--for an imagined self that is bigger than life, unbound, and powerful. Here the suburban white kid, gawky and materially privileged, is oddly simpatico with the black American experience.

The success of people like Mr. Combs is built on this sense of the simpatico. By some estimates, 80% of rap music is bought by white youth. And this makes for another irony. The blooming of white alienation has brought us the first generation of black entrepreneurs with wide-open access to the American mainstream. Russell Simmons, known as the "Godfather" of rap entrepreneurs, as well as Mr. Combs, Master P and others, have launched clothing lines, restaurant chains, record labels, and production companies--possibilities seeded, in a sense, by this strong new sympathy between black and white alienation.

Rap's adaptation, or update, of the BN archetype began in the post-'60s black underclass. As is now well established, this was essentially a matriarchal world in which welfare-supported women became the center of households and men became satellite fathers only sporadically supporting or visiting their children by different women. The children of this world were not primed to support a music of teen romance--of "Stop in the Name of Love." The alienation was too withering. Not even the blues would do.

I think the appeal of the BN, on the deepest level, was his existential indifference to feeling--what might be called his immunity to feeling. The slave wanted not to feel the loves and fears that bound him to other people and thus weakened him into an accommodation with slavery. Better not to love at all if it meant such an accommodation. So the BN felt nothing for anyone and had no fear even of death. He could slap a white man around with no regard for the consequences.

Rappers, too, gain freedom through immunity to feeling. Women are "bitches" and "ho's," objects of lust but not of feeling. In many inner cities, where the illegitimacy rate is over 80%, where welfare has outbid the male as head of the household, where marriage is all but nonexistent, and where the decimation of drugs is everywhere--in such places, a young person of tender feelings is certain to be devastated. Everything about rap--the misogynistic lyrics, the heaving swagger, the violent sexuality, the cynical hipness--screams "I'm bad because I don't feel." Nonfeeling is freedom. And it is important to note that this has nothing to do with race. In rap, the BN nurtures indifference toward those he is most likely to love.

Conservatives have rightly attacked rap for its misogyny, violence and over-the-top vulgarity. But it is important to remember that this music is a fairly accurate message from a part of society where human connections are fractured and impossible, so fraught with disappointments and pain that only an assault on human feeling itself can assuage. Rap makes the conservative argument about what happens when family life is eroded either by welfare and drugs, or by the stresses and indulgences of middle-class life.

I listened carefully to Eminem's recent Grammy performance expecting, I guess, to be disgusted. Instead I was drawn into a compelling rap about a boy who becomes a figure of terrible pathos. He is a male groupie who selfishly longs for the autograph of a rap star while he has his girlfriend tied up in the trunk of his car. Easy to be aghast at this until I remembered that Dostoyevsky's "Notes from the Underground"--the first modern novel, written more than 150 years ago--was also about a pathetic antihero whose alienation from modernity made him spiteful and finally cruel toward an innocent female.

Both works protest what we all protest--societies that lose people to alienation. This does not excuse the vulgarity of rap. But the real problem is not as much rap's cartoonish bravado as what it compensates for.
Mr. Steele is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution and author, most recently, of "A Dream Deferred: The Second Betrayal of Black Freedom in America" (HarperCollins, 1998).

One of the replies to this article is interesting also.

The Swindle
John Hench - San Jose, Calif.

I believe that Mr. Steele has rightly identified alienation as the driving factor with the success of hip-hop; however, this is not the end of the story.
One of the 20th century's greatest political philosophers, Eric Voegelin, identifies in his seminal work "Science, Politics, and Gnosticism" that alienation as the seed from which most revolutionary movements spring. Alienation is at work at both ends of the revolution: At the bottom there are the alienated who search for a leader who redress their grievances, and at the top there is the alienated who manipulates the aggrieved for his personal empowerment.
The key to the manipulation (or "the Swindle," as Voegelin calls it) is the assertion by the leaders of the revolutionary movement that there is some structural flaw in society which once removed will remove their alienation. The use of the word gnosticism in this context signifies that the leaders of the revolutionary movement (swindlers) portray themselves as an enlightened elite who have the extraordinary ability not only to identify structural flaw in the society, but also to produce the political formula by which the flaw is eliminated. The term gnosticism is also used in reference to the fact that these revolutionary leaders invariably define their movement in pseudo-religious language, giving it an air of grave moral imperative. Indeed for many of the alienated it becomes an "ersatz religion" (Voegelin again). These revolutionary movements, or gnostical mass movements in Voegelin vernacular, invariably wreak violence on the societies they attempt to reform, especially upon those for whom the societal flaw is blamed. The 20th century has been plagued by many of such movements: Nazism, communism, Maoism, etc.
While I do not believe that the alienation observed by Mr. Steele in the African-American community will lead to a widespread gnostical mass movement, I still see some of the hallmarks of one with swindlers: (Al Sharpton), jejune political formulae (quotas, reparations), pseudo-religious patois (Jesse Jackson), intellectual elite (academia, media).
also believe, as does Mr. Steele, that the alienation must first be addressed in the family, which as Mr. Steele observes, has virtually disappeared in the inner cities. Nothing replaces that, as Chesterton reminds us: "Whatever inspiration or idea we trust as a substitute for the family becomes a cold temple. The builder of that cold temple shall see his folly, the gradual dehumanization of his own children before his eyes."

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 18, 2001.

Good find Cherri.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), August 19, 2001.

I lurk here just often enough to appreciate you folks....

Michael

-- Michael (michaelteever@buffalo.com), August 19, 2001.

"Personally, the impression I get about you from what you write is one of a male....picking his nose, chugging pop or beer, farting and smiling over the sound and/or smell, often grabbing his balls with delight, giving them a good rub (for ego reinforcement) or even occasionally masturbating.... "

You left out "and smelling your fingers" afterwards. Now that's what a real man with a real ego does!

-- smell my fingers (smellmyfingers@aroma.smell), August 20, 2001.

Carlos, Lars found it.

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 20, 2001.