With all that is happening in the Mideast, it is a topic that seems to be absent from discussion here at Unk's WWW. I wanted to start a thread to generate some (hopefully) lively discussion about what is going on in the Mideast as we speak.

I will start by saying that I think that an escalation of the violence is almost inevitable at this point. I believe that Israel and the Palestinians are basically at war now, and that the next step will be an increase of military activity on the side of the Israelis, with an open declaration of war by one or both sides.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), August 15, 2001

Answers

J--

Am I anti-Semitic if I observe that no Americans should be sent to die for Israel? IMO, American military participation in that hopeless part of the world, should be determined solely by geo-political criteria.

We should offer humanitarian aid, peace brokering (useless) and shelter for refugees from either side (so long as they don't bring the war with them). I don't believe we should sell arms to anyone.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), August 15, 2001.

Bomb the shit out of those fuckers and let god sort them out...

-- George S Patton (ww3@mid.east), August 15, 2001.

J:

I believe that Israel and the Palestinians are basically at war now

This a big word game; one of symantics. There are no Palestinians. It is a word made up by the Romans [as I recall]. It was rescued from the bin by the British. There were Israelites, a very long time ago. They didn't occupy the same territory that is now Israel.

To put a simple face on the thing: there was a war [actually several]; the Palestinians lost; no more room for discussion. That is why we have Celts in Ireland and Scotland [rather than Picts], Europeans in the US and Xulu in Zimbabwe. It works that way. The history of man.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), August 15, 2001.

"Israel and the Palestinians are basically at war now..."

I would have to agree with this assessment.

"... and that the next step will be an increase of military activity on the side of the Israelis..."

Since the Israelis have far more firepower to bring to bear and they appear wholly committed to violence in pursuit of their aims, I would have to agree with this, too. The Palestinians have more of a stake in keeping the violence at a low, steady level, since that is their basic strategy. The Israelis have no upper limit on the amount of violence they see as strategic.

"... with an open declaration of war by one or both sides."

This is where I disagree.

Open declaration of war on Israel by the Palestinians would be catastrophic to their national aspirations, since it would isolate them diplomatically and the Israelis would crush their government in a couple of days.

Open declaration of war by the Israelis on the Palestinians would give the Palestinians an opening to widen the war through alliances with other Arab nations. Then Israel would have a real war to contend with.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), August 15, 2001.

You are all Jew Haters. I hope you all fucking die you nazi bitches.

-- sjkdfjkh (kjghj@kjaghskdj./com), August 15, 2001.

LN:

Open declaration of war by the Israelis on the Palestinians would give the Palestinians an opening to widen the war through alliances with other Arab nations. Then Israel would have a real war to contend with.

I'm not sure that you are correct [besides you can't declare war on a non-country]. Not important in real life but important in international courts. The only countries that I could see entering such a conflict would be Iraq and Syria. Iraq is presently non-functional; [and becoming more non-functional on a daily basis]. Syria would be destroyed. Such a war might destroy Jordan, since it is mostly "Palistinean", but ruled by a different ethnic group. The gulf states would not take part. If such a war occured, Israel may become the largest colonial power in the middle east.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), August 15, 2001.

I have wondered for years, and stll do,as to why our government gives Israel from 3 to 6 Billion dollors a year ?I ask..do we owe these people all this money? Are we some how obligated to them.Seems to me as though our ation and Israel are joined at the hip.No wonder they have such a high quality of life.We fucking pay for it.

-- Dan Newsome (BOONSTAR1@webnet.tv), August 15, 2001.

Cowardly, Cheshire Cat Arab nations feeding this meat grinder is what pisses me most. The Syrians, the Iraqis and Saudis aren't bleeding. Bleeding a little money maybe for training and other finance but content to sit back and stir the pot with the blood of Palestinian children. The pawns present don't seem to figure this out but then neither did the Hitler youth.

The regional politics ruin any chance for peace. Maybe a Yigal Amir type will pop up on the other side and rid the equation of Arafat. That would be a start.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), August 15, 2001.

it,s all Abraham's fault,if only he hadn,t slept with the slave girl.but sarah was in on it too.

yup,it just ain,t kosher'to try too help GOD keep HIS promises.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), August 15, 2001.

Lars,

Of course you aren't. However, if you so much as even think about the inability of certain older Floridian transplants to correctly punch a ballot, then you are a clone of Hitler himself. : )

What, if any, role the United States should play in that area of the world is entirely different can of worms. I echo your sentiments that American lives should not be lost for Israel. I think that we can all rest assured that American interests (i.e. oil) will be considered heavily in regards to our military involvement there. I disagree with your no sale of arms position.


General Patton,

It's God, with a capital G, sir.


Z,

While there may not, technically speaking, be any Palestinians, there are a few million people in and around what is now known as Israel who call themselves such. They don't like the Jewish people who occupy what is now known as Israel. In fact, some of these so-called Palestinians routinely try to kill these so-called Israelis, and vice versa. So, names notwithstanding, are you saying that the suicide bombers will continue to kill citizens, while tanks will continue to demolish police stations, indefinitely? Or do you believe that something different will occur?


Little Nipper,

I believe that as the conflict continues to escalate, one side or the other will point to some military move as an "act of war", and once labeled, will declare war by saying that the other side has already declared war through said action.


Dan Newsome,

The U.S. - Israel relationship is a complex one, indeed. I must disagree with your "high quality of life" statement, though. I am not sure that you would consider a suicide bomber at the local Pizza Hut an acceptable standard of living.


Carlos,

I think that the chances for peace in that region are ruined, period.


OK, more commentary from me. Rather than fooling themselves that there will ever be peace, I think that the Israelis should play from their strength and use their military power to relocate Palestinians.

Easy? Not at all.

Many Israeli casualties? Certainly.

Acceptable to the international community? No way.

But the reality is that there will never be a secure, peaceful Israel as long as there are Palestinian terrorists able to come and go through Israeli borders.

I liken it to this analogy. Assume that there were a certain number of Mexican terrorists living in Texas who refused to recognize that Texas was U.S. territory, and not ever going back to Mexican hands. Further, assume that these terrorists routinely slipped into crowded malls and restaurants in Dallas and Houston and blew themselves, and any U.S. citizens who happened to be nearby, into smithereens. Would we as American citizens be content to let this carnage go on year after year because the opinion of the international community was that we couldn't go door to door throughout Texas and drive all the Mexicans back across the border?

Of course not. We would do exactly that, and many peaceful Mexicans living in Texas would be expelled along with the terrorists, and many lives on both sides of the equation would be lost, and the international community would castigate us as terrible, brutal, uncivilized thugs, but in the end, there would be a secure border. Ultimately, I believe that it is Israel's only real solution.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), August 16, 2001.

I hope your conclusions are wrong J.

The barricade solution however appealing to frustration would last only at best until the Jordan ran dry. Fifteen years maybe? What then? Regional war for sure. Rather kick the lovin crap out of elements that divide. Chop heads, take the flak and continue to build the growing Palestinian Israli community that's sick of this shit.

Tex-Mex moms would never let their kids be sacrificed so stupidly.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), August 16, 2001.

Its all about territory.The Israels want more land to build more apartment buildings,or another air base.or what ever.I have a solution.Why don't they take a few thousand trucks,a few hundred catapillers and front end loaders, go up to one of those ugly ass montains.Dynamite the hell out of it,then haul it to the sea shore and dump in in.And keep dumping i t in, until there is few more acres of land where there was none before. Japan did it.They built an Airport in the middle of a bay.They were creative.But I forget,there is Realigon involved.So much for that idea.!!

-- Dan Newsome (BOONSTAR1@webnet.tv), August 16, 2001.

Better yet Dan use that equipment to tear down Old Jerusalem wall by wall, stone by stone and dump it all in the Med. Nevermind.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), August 16, 2001.

Thanks Carlos.Thats a better idea yet.

-- Dan Newsome (BOONSTAR1@webnet.tv), August 16, 2001.

>>"I have wondered for years, and stll do,as to why our government gives Israel from 3 to 6 Billion dollors a year ?I ask..do we owe these people all this money?"

You have to go back to WWI to understand this. Before that time, the Ottoman Empire was one of the largest powers in the world. It controlled what is now Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and much of Saudi Arabia. The rest of the region was nomadic tribes and local shieks. The British encouraged an Arab revolt, and after the war split the area up with the French and among a number of shieks. The idea then and after WWII was to keep the area in the hands of local strongmen and at conflict. Israel provided the perfect focal point and helped to prevent dreams of a "Pan Arabia" from becoming a reality. In modern times Quaddafi and Saddam, among others, have entertained that dream. Having a power (Israel) in the region that destabalized that possibility has helped to keep the Arabs and others focussed on something other than their own ambitions.

The British, Americans and other Western countries have never supported Israel out of the goodness of their hearts or because they felt they "owed" them something. The Israelis are and have long been the biggest dupes and suckers in modern times. It's always been about keeping the oil flowing from all those little shiekdoms and emirates. Keep 'em mad at Israel and they won't get together and realize that they could be the most powerful bloc in world. 3 to 6 billion dollars a year is a pittance.

Suckers!

-- (T@E.Lawrence), August 16, 2001.

Just to keep it fair, I believe the US kicks in 3 billion a year to Egypt also. Sort of like the fat cats who contribute to the Republicans and Democrats simultaneously.

Now to the issue that no one wants to address. Is there an "Israel lobby" in the US that distorts our policy in the Middle East?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), August 16, 2001.

let's see if the prophecy,comes true> ''JERUSALEM shall be come a stumbling block,for the world"" JESUS,told the jews the temple would be destroyed.IT WAS. HE also said he would return,to the MT. of olives. and that 2/3 of jews would be destroyed,[time of jacob's trouble's] and the final-battle between good & evil. the''great tribulation''satan bound for 1000 years. 7 years to clean up the bodies & weapons of war!! so where does POLITIC'S fit into all this?? satan & politic's=anti-christ-system.the beast system & the whore [false-christianity]BABYLON-will fall. when satan offered JESUS the kingdoms of this world. JESUS refused--but didn,t deny that satan had[temporary]control of the world-system!!--------mankind will NEVER have permanent peace. until the PRINCE OF PEACE[RULES]*COME LORD JESUS*

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), August 16, 2001.

"Mideast violence, the only way out", Charles Krauthammer, Wash Post Op Ed

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), August 16, 2001.

Charles Krauthammer is a crip, a neo-Conservative and a Jew. He is not to be trusted.

Oh, I forgot. I'm a Jew too.

-- (Leon Trotsky @ worker's.paradise), August 16, 2001.

Even worse, Krauthammer is a former psychiatrist. In the Soviet Union, he would be in Lubyanka.

-- (Leon Trotsky @ May.Day), August 16, 2001.