Bush. About stem cell research.

I think he is going to say no to funding.

:(

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 09, 2001

Answers

Debra, I'll buy you dinner if he says no. The research is proceeding without federal funding. The government will say yes to funding just to have the right to participate in the process. No one really believes campaign promises, do they?

-- helen (who@watches.the.guard), August 09, 2001.

This is a huge one. When is he supposed to decide, by the way?

It seems like all the current pro-cloning scientists who have allowed themselves to be heard are crackpots. Isn't the bunch in question associated with some cult that believes that all humans are actually clones of aliens or something? Not kidding, I read it yesterday. Makes you feel good about human cloning in general, huh?

I stand by my original comment in another thread - as long as my clone doesn't kill me and take my place in society, I'm open to suggestion. Including me killing him and taking his organs so I can live to be 130. Kidding. Sorta.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), August 09, 2001.

Bemused,

It was announced this morning on all the news networks that Bush has decided and is speaking to the nation at 9 PM tonight. We will know then.

Helen,

Where we going? I'm hungry. :)

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 09, 2001.

I think he will approve as long as it is done with embryos that will be disposed of anyway.

If he were going to say no he would have already, so there must be a LOT of pressure on him to say yes.

Maybe he will say yes so the government can control it to prevent "abuses".

I think it is cruel to force someone like him with an booze damaged brain to try to think beyond his ability to reason.

Since he believes that anyone who does not have his religious belief is not going to heaven anyway, he can probably justify allowing these embryos to be used as they have not been "saved" anyway.

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 09, 2001.

No politician can fail to calculate the political cost of such a decision. What makes this one interesting is that Bush is beholden to two very powerful interests, whose viewpoints on this matter are diametrically opposed: the pharmeceutical corporations and the Christian Right.

I predict that his decision will leave the pharmaceutical companies free to pursue stem cell research from embryos fertilized for implantation. This leaves the pharmeceutical companies still able to develop new proprietary treatments and sell them at vast profits. They'll be happy with that because they have deep pockets.

At the same time, I predict he will restrict government funding and involvement in such research, so the Christian Right will feel Bush remains committed to the cause and will stay enthusiastic in their support. He may even cite some passage from the Bible to justify his choice and flaunt his bona fides.

In essence, I bet he will sit on the fence and bow to both sides, hoping to look Solomon-like in the process.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), August 09, 2001.

Debra, off to work and won't know until tomorrow what Bush the Younger decided. Email me about details if I lose the bet.

-- helen :) (this_a_real_address@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

Dumbya doesn't have an original thought in his head and relies on the opinions of his minions. In this instance his wife is FOR stem cell research so he'll say "yes" to government funding.

-- 1 (2@3.com), August 09, 2001.

45 minutes to go. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he is going to handle this.

Cherri - LOL

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 09, 2001.

He's giving his decision now, there is a fly buzzing around him, giving credence to the appearance that his decision stinks.

Gee, how did I reason out what he was going to do.
So much for his campaign promise to unequivocally deny funding for stem cell research.
Ok then, what is the difference between abortion and using fertalised embryo's for medical research?

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 09, 2001.

Cherri, just think about how much more fun you'd have had here if he'd closed the door.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), August 09, 2001.

Ok then, what is the difference between abortion and using fertalised embryo's for medical research?

DumKoff! If you aren't smart enough to know, you aren't smart enough to ask.

-- (Eggs @ren't .people), August 09, 2001.

Carlos, Cherri, just think about how much more fun you'd have had here if he'd closed the door.
I don't understand what you mean. Could you clarify please.

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 09, 2001.

Sure. Bush bashers win either way on this deal. If he permits the funding then the "broke is promise" just like his dad is trotted out. If he says no way then we're treated to is inhumanity to those suffering from the possible benefits of stem cell research. Duh?

What puzzles me is just where are those enlightened countries with socialized medicine on this issue? They must avant garde the way their system is held in such high regard by so many here. Are there no good researchers in Sweden or are they too worried about paying their rent?

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), August 09, 2001.

Carlo's, I'm courious to see what his conservative backers have to say about his decision.

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 10, 2001.

Debra, I'll buy you dinner some day anyway.

-- helen (not@surprised.today), August 10, 2001.

Thanks helen. I'd say his decision calls for dutch-treat though. (Do you live by me?)

In essence, I bet he will sit on the fence and bow to both sides, hoping to look Solomon-like in the process.

LN, you certainly called that one.

Can anyone tell me what a 'line' of stem cells is or means and why there seems to be some doubt about the number and quality of them?

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 10, 2001.

A question. The stem cells are going to be taken from embryos that have been fertilized. These may be what...a week along or so.

If they will be disposed of anyway, what is the conflict in the conservatives corner that opposes the "morning after" pill?

The timing is about the same. the "age" of the embryo is the same. Why is one considered wrong and the other acceptable?

Since the embryo will be removed from the body due to the morning after pill and be discarded anyay, will these be saved and used for stem cell research?

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 10, 2001.

I just found this. This is what Bush advocated yesterday.

The labyrinthine rules, painstakingly designed to address as many concerns as possible, are encyclopedic in their restrictions. Embryonic cells -- of which there are typically a surfeit after an attempt at in vitro fertilization -- must be harvested by privately funded labs and passed to the federally funded scientists, in order to avoid having government monies directly linked to the destruction of an embryo. Researchers also may only use embryos that are marked to be discarded, and embryo donors are not to be reimbursed. The administration hopes that by establishing such tight guidelines, they will be able to stanch the development of a black market for embryos, in which unscrupulous dealers would pay women for their donations.

The thing is...this is an news release from a year ago. They are talking about Clinton's decision! Report on what Clinton decided

I cannot believe it!!!!! They both agreed on the same thing...... The fires in hell are going out as it freezes over!!!! *grin*

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), August 10, 2001.

I found the bolded comment in the following snip interesting -

Clear Break From the Right May Be Brief

Many religious conservatives were indeed displeased last night. Bishop Joseph A. Fiorenza, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, rejected Bush's decision. "The trade-off he has announced is morally unacceptable," he said. "We hope and pray that President Bush will return to a principled stand against treating some human lives as nothing more than objects to be manipulated and destroyed for research purposes."

But Republican strategists predicted that on this issue Bush will be hurt less by dispiriting conservatives than by alienating moderates. Conservatives "will make a little noise and attempt to stir things up, but at the end of the day they have nowhere to go," said strategist Scott Reed.

The question is whether the stem-cell model is a new rule for Bush, or an exception to the old.

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 10, 2001.

Here is an interesting response from the Feminist Majority Foundation -

Press Release

August 9, 2001

Contact: Gaylynn Burroughs Phone: 703-522-2214

REACTION OF ELEANOR SMEAL, PRESIDENT, FEMINIST MAJORITY FOUNDATION TO PRESIDENT BUSH’S DECISION ON STEM CELL RESEARCH

President Bush’s decision unnecessarily restricts embryonic stem cell research. As Christopher Reeves has stated, these restrictions will inevitably slow medical progress and impede research for finding treatments and cures for serious illnesses.

Rather than being careful and cautious, Bush’s decision is irresponsible. Americans should not be fooled: this is no compromise. Bush is allowing political calculations to interfere with science and medical advances. How did the United States come to a position that the well-being of a few frozen cells is more important than alleviating the suffering of millions of living human beings in the US and worldwide?

While Bush worries about theological implications of the human potential of frozen embryos that will only be discarded, millions of suffering people will have to wait longer or may never find a cure.

Tragically, anti-abortion extremist politics is again interfering with the health and welfare of American women and men. What makes this even more outrageous is the United States -- the richest country on the earth with the largest medical establishment – is hindering the development of a promising avenue to treat serious illnesses. How many times will conservative religious interests be allowed to slow human progress? The Roman Catholic hierarchy only at the end of the 20th Century recognized that Galileo in the Middle Ages was right. Can we really afford to wait this long again?

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 10, 2001.

And then there is the response from the left -

Bush Gives Vast Profits Of Unregulated Stem Cell Research To His Bio-Tech Buddies

Last night in his "I've Agonized Over This Stem Cell Problem For You, My Fellow 'Mericans" speech, Bush decided to give his Bio-Tech corporate buddies a clear shot at big profits, saying, in effect, that he will keep the Feds out of the highly profitable stem cell market. In deciding that the 69 lines of stem cells that already exist will be ALL that's going to exist through federal funding, he gave the nation's private corporate interests, who own most, if not all, of those lines, a virtual monopoly, unless Congress decides to enact future legislation to the contrary. You don't really think that private corporations are going to give those lines for scientists to use freely, do you? That means big bucks for big business. Check out the sudden shift in the price of bio-tech stocks today, and you'll see what I mean. Bush also indicated that those lines are diverse enough to do the job across the spectrum of needs, and they are robust enough to keep being replicated indefinitely, comments that were immediately challenged by some scientists. Others objected to the Bush decision on the basis of logic. If those 69 lines were accepted by Bush because they already exist, what about the lines that will be created by private industry in the future, like today or tomorrow? There's no government ban on the creation and use of stem cells, so there will be brisk traffic in stem cell production in private industry, which is exactly what Bush implied he did not want. Bush has given unrestricted rights to the corporate makers of stem cells. They will set the rules of production and use without government intervention, and you can bet their criteria wlll be based on the bottom line. What Bush did last night was to favor unregulated private free trade over government oversight. Further, while he stressed the moral and ethical concerns that went into his decision, it was politics that floated his boat as he attempted to gather in the Christian conservative and Catholic vote. As is so often the case with Bush and folks like him, morality was used last night as sugar coating for a political and financial decision. --Politex, 8/10/01.

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 10, 2001.

Free trade is the best way to ensure that stem cell research is applied to the medical marketplace. Government oversight costs corporations time and money spent cooking the books and hiding the real operations.

Michael J. Fox was on the news this morning saying that his Parkinson's organization was aware of only a few stem cell lines and not the more than sixty lines mentioned by the president. He asked for clarification about how many lines there are, who owns them, and why haven't they been made public before?

On a slightly different topic: this morning an ABC news reporter mentioned that the chicken pox vaccine is "suspected" of having been developed using "aborted" fetal tissues. If this is true, there are thousands of parents who will be unhappy at having this information withheld.

-- helen (unhappy@vaccine.news), August 10, 2001.