Am I the only one who here who is planning to join the Amish? Have you ever considered it?

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 08, 2001

Answers

I've always thought about it Anne, and basically live that way where I am. It always seemed the best way of life to me. I'm glad I am not the only one who feels that way.

-- Peg (Ashlinep@localnet.com), August 08, 2001.

I think it is wonderful to live a simple lifestyle, but would be even better to be surrounded by likeminded believers! I dream of canning vegetables alongside my sisters in Christ, singing hymns to glorify my Lord. :-)

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 08, 2001.

I've done some trading with the Amish. They are about one hour south so when I have them do construction I pick them up. Two hours of conversation on a regular basis brings some insight.

I think it is wonderful to be a male AMish, less so to be female. Sorry, thats very un PC but my real take on the situation. My Amish Buddy once told me its not so great having a eighth grade education. I have to agree. we often talk of money and lifestyle choices. I don't discount the lifestyle lightly it could be fine. I would but it close to intentional poverty. Don't get me wrong the Amish are not poor, they just make a lifestle choice that perplexes others. read the book "By Birth or by Choice" and you decide

-- Mark (toymeister@hotmail.com), August 08, 2001.

Yes, I've read "By Birth or By Choice." It is written by a liberal Mennonite and does not give a very good view of joining the Amish. I have also read a great many more books, and visited the Amish. We know people who have joined, and we are also considering it. And btw, I think it is fine to be female and Amish. The bible tells us to submit to our husbands. It also tells them to love us as Christ loves the church. :-)

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 08, 2001.

Mark, I'm with you. I don't think I'd "be Amish" very long before somebody was lighting up that fire to burn me at the stake. LOL!

Fifteen minutes of watching the teenage son of the Amish couple who owns a grocery store I patronize ought to cure almost any woman of the desire to "be Amish". This smart mouthed arrogant thirteen year old took great pleasure in ordering his mother and sisters around, ignoring their requests for help, and generally strutting around like he was cock of the walk. While I admit that such a display is not par for the course, that's only IN PUBLIC that such behavior is discouraged. I knew some former Amish, both male and female, and its extremely restrictive to be a woman amongst the Amish.

There are many things about Amish society that I admire, but there's no way I would choose to accept the whole thing, lock, stock, barrel, and baggage. And the position of women in that society is definitely some baggage I refuse to tote or countenance.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 08, 2001.

I would never join any group or organization which treats some of it's members as terribly as Amish females are treated. Has anyone ever taken note of seating arrangements in an Amish buggy? With an Amish couple, their son and their daughter it will be like this; Nearest the ditch (the safest position) will be the father, next to him, his son. On the outside nearest passing and oncoming traffic (the most dangerous position), will be the daughter with her mother next to her. This is by design. The logic is safety based on value to the family with a young female being the most expendable, followed by her mother, then a male child and lastly, the patriarch. That mentality is the absolute antithesis of mine. So, to answer the question asked, I will state categorically I have never considered joining such a group.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), August 08, 2001.

Living very close to Amish folks, and being a very outspoken woman, I can attest to a few things. There are Amish folks whom are very good hearted and God fearing, as the bible suggets. There are also as many hopocrites as in any religion. I have an amish farrier that has one of the most foal mouths I have ever heard. He does a good job trimming the horses and for a third of the cost so I put up with him. We have had Amish carpenters that are wonderful at their profesion, put up a 30 by 40 barn up in 4 1/2 days but dont know the basics of horse care. The grass is not always greener on the other side. I also have a problem with the Amish that does not believe in cars but has know problem with asking for a ride in your car.

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), August 08, 2001.

I have second cousins on my father's side of the family who are Amish, and we spent some time with them when I was a child. I must have been too young to notice any discrimination because I don't remember being aware of it at the time. I loved them because they lived on a farm, which we used to visit. There are a lot of things which I admire about the Amish, most of which concern their lifestyle, but I think a lot of people neglect to consider that the lifestyle is basically an extension of their religion, which is very, very, rigid. I often hear people extoll the virtues of the lifestyle, but have never heard a single person mention the religious aspect, and frankly, from what I know of it I cannot imagine that it would hold much appeal for prospective converts. Anne, I am curious to know which holds the greater appeal for you- lifestyle, or religion?

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 08, 2001.

While I'll admire their lifestyle, and I think they have some things right, as mentioned above, they'd be burning me at the stake first time I mentioned the Goddess :) (Or said thank gods, instead of thank god).

-- Brendan K Callahan (Grinnell, IA) (sleeping@iowatelecom.net), August 08, 2001.

I have for many years read about and studied the Amish. I admire many things about them,particularly their lifestyle. I do agree with some others, however, that it would be difficult for a woman to step into that lifestyle after having been "English". I think you would have to be raised around it. In studying their religion, I have some big doubts. They are not encouraged to read all the bible on their own -- only certain passages are read at family prayer time and in their churches. They say they beleive in grace, but I don't think they fully accept the concept. They seem to believe that you are saved by grace, but kept by works. They definitely believe that actions speak louder than words and that it would be presumptuous of anyone to assume they are saved and going to heaven. They will only say they "hope" they are going to heaven. Nevertheless, I believe they have many things right, and I am envious of theie peaceful, pastoral lifestyle. They seem so content.

-- connie in nm (karrellewis@aol.com), August 08, 2001.

" it would be difficult for a woman to step into that lifestyle after having been "English". I think you would have to be raised around it."

We have friends who joined from the outside. Quite a few have done so, in fact.

"They are not encouraged to read all the bible on their own -- only certain passages are read at family prayer time and in their churches."

Not the ones we know. They read the bible and feel it is their duty to teach it to their children! :-)

"They seem to believe that you are saved by grace, but kept by works."

We believe the same.

"They definitely believe that actions speak louder than words and that it would be presumptuous of anyone to assume they are saved and going to heaven. They will only say they "hope" they are going to heaven."

Yep, that's what the bible says!

"Nevertheless, I believe they have many things right, and I am envious of theie peaceful, pastoral lifestyle. They seem so content."

Has it ever occured to you that their peaceful lifestyle and their contentedness stems from their beliefs? :-)

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 08, 2001.

I also admire the Amish and have friends who became "plain people "and lived among them .They are always very pleasant and nice to deal with at auction and at there stands.I even had them break my horse .Anne I have to ask and am not being rude , but if you wish to live among them why are you online ? Why are you not living as they do know or close to it ?Once again not trying to be rude , just asking.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 08, 2001.

Anne Wrote:

" it would be difficult for a woman to step into that lifestyle after having been "English". I think you would have to be raised around it."

We have friends who joined from the outside. Quite a few have done so, in fact.

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Mebbe so. But the Amish do not proselytize, nor do they, by and larger, encourage converts. I grew up around Amish, and the universal flow was OUT of Amish society. I imagine it would be easier to go from something already close, say a particularly strict sect of Mennonites (we had some REALLY strict Mennonites where I grew up, nothing like the Mennonites around where I live now) or some other extremely rigid religious splinter group, where women are already pretty well stratified and confined, and where there are many congruencies in religious belief and practice already. But by and large, and outside of such groups, there are VERY few English women who would feel comfortable trying to be a part of Amish society.

See The Amish FAQ page for more information on Amish society.

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"They are not encouraged to read all the bible on their own -- only certain passages are read at family prayer time and in their churches."

Not the ones we know. They read the bible and feel it is their duty to teach it to their children! :-)

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ALL of the bible? I have to say that my experience matches Connie's in this regard. Only certain sections of the bible are deemed worthy.

Remember that all Amish are not the same. Some eschew ALL modern contraptions. Some allow tractors, but only to be used as motors to run other equipment (like a chipper, or some other piece of equipment that allows the tractor to sit stationary). Some won't allow zippers, some will. Some won't even allow the use of BUTTONS. Some allow buttons on the men's clothing, but the women have to stick their clothes together using straight pins. Some won't allow phones at all, some allow them outside on a pole and shared by the whole community. Some allow them only for business use. Etc. etc. etc., ad infinitum.

We've got some really strange Amish out here. They don't own cars, but they do own and ride tractors - and use them for transportation. They routinely ride their tractors, hauling trailers, to the local WalMart to do their shopping. I've seen a big old tractor hauling the back half of a pickup truck bed down the road, full of Amish men, at the top speed the tractor can attain. This is, IMHO, a far greater road hazard than an honest horse and buggy. One bump, or a swerve off the road, and there are gonna be black-hats all over the road, and dead bodies. Either you don't believe in motorized conveyance, or you do. If you don't, you don't drive a tractor. If you do, then you buy a car and use it when use of a car is appropriate. You don't ride around in a tractor to make an end run around the rules of your religion.

These folks also have phones in their homes, and every time I've been in a home or Amish owned business around here, one of the women is on the phone yacking away. I have actually been shushed by an Amish woman gossiping on the phone while I was trying to conduct business with her husband. (Keep in mind, if had I been a man, she never would have said boo to me. LOL!) And yes, these folks claim to be Amish, and not Mennonite.

Anyway, not all Amish are the same. But by and large, my experience on this issue matches Connie's observations.

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"Nevertheless, I believe they have many things right, and I am envious of theie peaceful, pastoral lifestyle. They seem so content."

Has it ever occured to you that their peaceful lifestyle and their contentedness stems from their beliefs? :-)

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Mebbe so. But not all us English are all that discontented ourselves. I've got my own beliefs, and they're every bit as valid as anybody else's. Thing is, I've seen Amish women trying to hide their tears after their husband has upbraided them for some minor faux pas in public (in that near-German patois they speak). Yeah, English do such reprehensible things as well - but at least its not codified (in general) by religious belief.

I knew a young former Amish girl in college who will never ever see her family again - the whole community shunned her because she decided she was going to be a doctor, ergo she was going to school and college, and do other things deemed by her religion to be "unseemly for a woman". There is NO WAY that such behavior can or should be condoned. When I knew her, she was lost and lonely - cut off from her family and heritage, forever, because she wanted to heal people. It was very hard for her, but she persisted, oddly enough because of her faith - the same faith that turned her into an outcast. It's funny how things work sometimes.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 08, 2001.

of course there's negatives and bad apples in every type of culture but overall I think most Amish women are very happy where they're at. I grew up on a farm in central PA(Lykens valley) and many of our neighbors were Amish. Couldn't have asked for better people to live around. We eventually sold our farm to an Amish neighbor with a large family. All the Amish women and girls I knew wouldn't have traded it for anything and they're always free to leave. I never saw any man treat them with disrespect. The Amish where I lived were mostly Old order, though a few had phone shacks out by the road and they did contract drivers to take them long distances.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 09, 2001.

There are Amish and then there are Amish. I live in an Amish community, our home is an old Amish home, and many neighbors are old order Amish (buttons for men and children, straight pins for ladies, only motorized washers and chain saws allowed). I was so excited to move down here with people who had as close convivtions as mine. Boy was I in for a rude awakening! Many don't know their Bible simply because it is in German(Penn dutch) and, although they can speak it, they can't read it. Many I have met don't care to read it. Their religion is tribal just like some people always vote Democrat "cuz my Daddy voted Democrat and granpa too!" Some of the most sharp tongued women I know are Amish. Now I am a conservative woman, and I dress that way. I have a pretty face but I have also birthed 5 children so far. That being said, their have been MANY times when I have gone to the general store and I have been looked up and down and up and down by the Amish men. Looks that make you feel violated and those gross smirks. I have overheard my Amish neighbor talk to one of the local white trash about sucking toes or something kinky like that and turn red when he noticed I was behind him. I convicted him not because I was the only woman there (I wasn't) but because my family's lifestyle held more spiritual awareness to him than his Amish heritage.

About 20 mins from here is an old order mennonite community. Now they seem a little bit more real yet I am not in the midst of them. One family I know there a little in that community really are Christians and are really neat. She is isolated because she came in "by choice" 20 years ago and doesn't know her Dutch as well. She gets lost in the church service and noone makes any allowance for her, no grace. She doesn't have any close friends in the community because she believes they don't consider her "pure" enough. What does that tell you?

There is another Amish around here who drive cars. They are called Beachy Amish (but I don't know if that is their official name). I don't know them well but my close friend says they are good people. She makes noodles with the ladies, etc. From what I've seen, they seem real in their faith.

Back to "my" Amish- I know that every community is different BUT many communities have fellowship with one another and they can marry within those fellowships. So you may find a good set of Amish and within one generation go from good to bad because of the fellowship. I too thought that worshipping the same Lord would be wonderful with these people, but it is obvious that even if you profess it and live it, if you are not one of them, you're out. Even when you join, you're not totally in. Of course, sometimes you are welcomed open armed but the cynic in me thinks it is because they need some fresh blood in the lines.

These are my experiences with the Amish. Yours may be totally different. My Amish have lost their saltiness and most people around here think they are hypocrites.

Whatever you do, do it fully informed.

Mrs G

-- Mrs G (gunnar@yifan.net), August 09, 2001.

You are right! Not all Amish are the same. I just want to reiterate that we have investigated this very thoroughly for over six years, so we are very well aware of all the differences among the Amish. We have found a group that we are happy with, and they are Christians.

As for "believing in motorized conveyances" it goes beyond that. They do not want cars and trucks because they go too fast. The group we are joining does not allow tractors, but I can see how using tractors on the road still permits them to stay close to home. Cars and trucks would take them further away more often, in their way of thinking. That would be bad for their community.

The reason I am online is because we have some preparing to do before we can join. We have to sell our home here, my husband has to find a new job there, and we have to move. They do not expect us to change our lifestyle before then because the *purpose* of the lifestyle is to keep the community close. We have no community where we are, so it would not make any sense to simply give up our car and computer! I do have some friends on this computer *g*, and some of them may also be joining the Old Order Amish. So this is a good way for us to keep in touch for now, and possibly find others who are also interested.

BTW, we are converting to oil lamps for our light. And we are obtaining a kerosene refrigerator. We drive the horse and cart when we can. Just so you know, although we are not required to make lifestyle changes until we move, we are already beginning because we think it will be easier if we do it in small steps.

The Amish bible is in High German, not Pennsylvania Dutch. Just for the record.

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

I am glad you have a partner who agrees with your beleives .I would like to live more simply but my husband would not .How will your extended family be treated ? What order Amish are you looking into ? I would find myself biting my tongue way to much and could never do it .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 09, 2001.

My grandparents left the amish in their youth. My husbands parents left the amish after their family was half grown. (Before hubby came along.)

The Amish have many good aspects. But doctrinally, I could never live as one with them. They also have many secrets which never get outside the group. Wife swapping happened in our own generally upright community. When we lived in Holmes County, Ohio, and I worked with the local Pregnancy Help Center, it was surprising how many amish teenagers got abortions. It is general knowledge in Holmes County that there is a church there that forbids the young ladies to wear underclothes, and the bishop requires every new married couple to have him sleep with them the first night, to "instruct" them. -And this group is still recognised as Amish among the rest of the community, simply because of their clothes and lack of cars.

You see, the old-order Amish strongly discourage the members reading the Bible, as it is liable to be interpreted diffently from the authorities. Thus, the members can be controlled better. They are told constantly that if they read the bible for themselves, they will probably arrive at a private interpretation, and thus damn their souls. Now, the New-Order Amish do encourage reading the Bible. But they still believe that if your own children once join the church, and then leave, you should never eat at the same table with them again. Anyone who refuses to take part in this shunning will find themselves disciplined harshly by the church authorities. This one doctrine of "shunning" is common among ALL Amish. My parents in law have been totally shut out of their large families, simply because they left. When they go to funerals, a small separate table is set for them, and no one hardly talks to them. It is deeply painful. This is the MAIN reason that many people stay amish.

The amish believe much like the Presbyterians as far as salvation goes. If anyone claims to know for sure that they are saved, they are "proud." No one really knows if they will go to heaven. all you can do is do your best and hope God has mercy on you at the final judgement. They do NOT believe in any rapture. If you at all voice a belief in a rapture, you will be visited and instructed by the ministers. The amish do not believe in education beyond the 8th grade, for obvious reasons. Once a person begins to exercise critical thinking, they "get proud" because they begin to question what comes over the pulpit. Almost all of those "rebellious" young people who get higher learning, leave.

Of course, you would have to get rid of your computer. You would have to forsake all political interests at all, not even vote. (My brother in law was disciplined harshly for voting for Reagan. -and he is only Beachy; a more modern amish that owns cars.)

I would say simply that if anyone thinks it would be nice to join the amish should talk to someone who left, to see what it actually is like for those who join without an amish last name. You would NEVER become accepted as truely one of them. I would advise that you first go to court and change your name to Miller or Yoder.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

Oh, puhlease!!!

The Amish do not swap wives. They do not forbid wearing underwear. I suppose anyone can come on this forum and say anything they wish, but this is garbage, pure and simple.

I look forward to getting rid of my computer and having real live fellowship. I do not believe Christians should vote and I have not voted since being born again. (Yes, the Amish do believe one must be born again, but their definition may be different from some people.) And excommunication and shunning is commanded in the bible. ("with such an one, no not to eat.")

AS I think I stated earlier, we know several people who have already joined the Old Order Amish. I should also state that I know of some people who have left the Old Order Amish and I have spoken with them as well.

If anyone wants to know the truth about the Amish we have encountered, please feel free to contact me. I would love to correspond with others who have similar beliefs and are interested in the Amish. :-)

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

Forgot to mention, the amish are exempted from Social Security Taxes. The law forbids any group established after 1953 to qualify for this exemption. Of course, I have toyed with the idea of perhaps joining the amish, getting a following, and then leaving, still calling the group amish, but just get rid of all the heavy-handed cult-type authoritarianism. Oops, wouldnt work; I'm a woman. LOL

Oh yes, forgot also to mention, dont join the amish unless you feel very comfortable around a TOTAL lack of manners. And stop teaching your children politeness- they would be persecuted mercilessly for it. As an example; My dad-in-law tells a story he thinks is funny- this is typical amish adult humor. When he was a boy, the "English" teacher tried to teach the boys to say "You're Welcome." She kept at it, even though they refused. Eventually, a smart-aleck figured out how to fool her. As they all filed past the teacher into the room when she said thank you, they each replied "Ich vil net." She never knew it meant "I will not." Dad still thinks this was a smart thing to do. If you join the amish, be ready for your children to develop and remain stuck for life in this immature type of humor.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

Anne, you are certainly free to do whatever you wish; I have no interrest in keeping you from joining them. Except to spare you a lot of heartache. You can debunk what I say- call me a liar if you wish, but it doesnt change the fact that every word I printed there is the absolute truth. Of course, the freedom that allows me to tell the truth about the Amish is the same freedom that allows you to call me a liar. Go ahead. Join them. But dont say no one warned you when you get your heart broken.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

Anne- I am glad to heat that you have friends waiting for you when you join the Amish. Sounds like a pretty "liberal" group that you have found, which will hopefully ease your transition. You seem to be very well informed about your chosen lifestyle and I hope it works out the way you had planned. What is the time frame for your move?

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 09, 2001.

From what I understand are friends where never truely "amish" just plain people .They where not treated well after the man of the house started with his preaching.My understanding is alot of there beleifs are just handed down and may not be so much from the bible any more.I would find it hard to feel comfortable being the new people .Everyone else has been a "family" for life.Are Amish friends that we know have are wonderfull people .I do not have alot of contact with te woman , as the men do most of the buisness.I would love to keep in contact with you even after the move.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 09, 2001.

While I admire the outwardly way in which the Amish appear to live I would never consider joining any group that shuns another human being for not believing the same as they do. This seems so cruel to me.

Just my opinion.

-- Trevilians (aka Dianne in Mass) (Trevilians@mediaone.net), August 09, 2001.

Anne I hope that you are still young enough to have another ten children. I use to trade, (door to door) with Amish communities in Jamestown in western NY and Heuvelton area of St. Lawrence county NY, I also spent time selling to the Amish in Kidron Ohio and to the south. I sold treadle sewing machine, wood cook stoves, harness leather and so forth. On one trip to Heuvelton I stopped at a plce swarming with children and tried to sell a cook sotve to a woman, her husband, who made the decision was gone (in his buggy) on a 2 day trip but I caughty up with him a few miles later. He liked my stove but it was used, he said that they had bought 3 cook stove over 20 years of marriage and he wanted to buy his wife a NEW one. I asked him how many children they had and he told me 18. My reply was that not only should he buy her a new wood range but that he should take her on a months vacation to Tahiti, he laughed, he certainly had a sense of humor.

-- hendo (redgate@echoweb.net), August 09, 2001.

Actually, the Amish we are planning to join are one of the most *conservative* groups!

We already believe that God considers children a blessing and we do not want to limit the number He would give us. Considering some of the responses I have gotten here on other subjects, I imagine that one will get me flamed real good. ;-)

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

Having read the input from others and your responses to the advice given, I have to assume that your mind is made up and you were just looking for some support. I'm not going to say "good luck" but rather "Be of good courage." You're going to need it.

I doubt that you would consider taking the advice of daffodyl lady, which advice tells me that she really knows some Amish. It is easy to make a defense of something on the internet, but much more difficult to talk one on one with someone and hear something that you don't want to hear, so I doubt that you will ever look up anyone who has left the Amish Church. That is a shame, because your carefully preserved illusions are going to be shattered all the worse for your refusal to listen to those who have been there.

An interesting point of the Old Order Amish Church is that anyone (Male Amish) can start a community, or as they call it, a church. The person who starts the community sets the rules, and all they really need is fellowship with at least one other Amish church. We had an Amish neighbor (and good friend) whose cousin really loved to play instruments- something basically forbidden in all but the liberal churches. This cousin was in a strict Old Order Church. He started moving from Church to Church (this involves a physical move from place to place, so maybe he wasn't married), with each move going to a Church more liberal than the last. He finally wound up in a Church that allowed instruments such as guitars, even though it was a Church that had NO fellowship with the Church he was originally from. Because of the way he did it (going from Church to Church and always getting a good letter from each bishop) his original Church (read that ALL HIS FAMILY) and their associated Churches couldn't shun him, although they would have done so if he had just gone straight from point A to X. Think about the implications of that.

One of the seldom discussed points about the Amish is the incidence of birth defects and other problems related to inbreeding. It is a fact that when the gene pool shrinks (the old order communities are shrinking, and marriages between 2nd and 3rd cousins isn't unusual at all) you get incidences of abnormalities. What nobody tells you is that it works both ways: both ends of the bell curve are represented, and you get abnormal intelligence or other "beneficial" deviations just as you get the birth defects and other problems.

I had an Amish neighbor that I am convinced was a genius. You would think that the Amish church would welcome this but, no, just the opposite. He was in fact shunned by his own people at one point, and is currently in danger of being shunned again. His main problem is that he incites jealousy and envy because of his obvious talents and intelligence. The English people around here all acknowledge his genius, but the Amish mock him and his "fancy" contraptions. He doesn't fit in well with the groupthink.

I tried to convince this neighbor to start his own church and make up a set of realistic and rational rules. That way he could have his cake and eat it too. I think that he might wind up doing it one of these days. He has some daughters and he looks at the local youths with a jaundiced eye... something that you might think about. The marriage prospects are pretty slim pickings, and that's what you'd be condemning your kids to.

A member of our Bible study is formerly Mennonite (old order) and as he puts it, "You take away the TV, the radio, transportation and most everything else, and what have you got left? Everybody just sits around and gossips about everybody else." I notice the same thing in our local Amish. Where there are many words, sin is there also. He also told the story of the Church service where one of the men stood up and told of a vision that he had, where all the English were driving down to hell in their cars and trucks. One of the other men then asked him if there were any Mennonites in the passenger seats? You see, they are just like the Amish in that respect: they refuse to have a car or truck and believe that the English are going to Hell for driving cars, but they have no qualms about getting a ride in the passenger seat.

Because we live withing 20 miles of 2 old order Mennonite Churches, on the edge of one Beechy Amish Church and within the bounds of one Old Order Amish Church and have 2 other Old Order Amish Churches within 20 miles or so, we have had much interaction with them. It's a small world out in the country and there aren't any secrets. Just like anywhere else, perhaps the best way to get a good idea about what someone is really like is to get the opinion of their enemies. You should expect their friends to say only good things, so you go to their enemies to get the other side of the picture- then make your decision.

Finally, I'll say this: unless you join the most liberal of Amish Churches, you will not be truly accepted, you will always be an outsider. Your children will be suspect, and it will only be your grandchildren who gain acceptance. Part of it is the language, part of it is the customs, attitudes and rules, and part of it is the fact that you will be a newcommer. That means that it is easy for you to leave the Amish church because you have experience and knowledge that the other Amish don't have. They will perceive that and you will be resented for it. If you don't believe it go talk to some of the people who have left the Amish Church.

I hope that you would go to a public terminal in a year or two after joining your Amish church and post some follow-up. I'd love to hear that I'm wrong and there entire groups of Amish who are decent folks, rather than the rare individual as has been my experience.

-- Gunnar Ericson (gunnar@yifan.net), August 09, 2001.

Why shouldnt a Christian vote? That is one I dont understand. Please help me out with that one. dale

-- dale (dgarr@fidnet.com), August 09, 2001.

daffodyllady I'm not calling you a liar but you are painting a broad brush across Amish. There's also plenty of 'english' with those undesirable traits. I'm sorry you seem to only run into the bad apples. What area were these Amish in? All the Amish I know from central pa are nothing like that, though I'm sure there's some bad ones around there, a small percentage. Kids will be kids even if they're Amish and the indcident you related is nothing compared to what goes on in public schools nowadays in most areas. As far as manners, your experiences are 180 degrees from mine. I sat down at the dinner table and had lunch with a few Amish families from time to time. I never witnessed anything but perfect manners. Their houses were also immaculate and well kept. I bailed hay a few summers with an Amish teenager who had plans to leave the sect. He even had blue jeans and a car he kept parked off his familys farm. His family was disappointed I'm sure but they didn't scorn and banish him. They love and have feelings just like any other humans. The family down the road hosted huge gatherings every year for the young adults to meet each other. They came from many miles so they could meet potential mates from another Amish community. There was a few beer kegs, and a few may have smoked a little weed but it was nothing like the debauchery that goes on in high schools today where oral sex is regarded as a kiss was 30 years ago. In the area where I lived, you could usually spot an Amish farm from the road by noticing the place was well kept and no junk laying around the yard like the 'english' farms. All the times I was around them, I never once witnessed bad manners, bad kids, or bad treatment of women. Once in a great while I'd hear someone cus in pa dutch but who doesn't do that once in a while? As far a social security taxes, why shouldn't they be exempt when they don't ever collect ss? For the past 6 years I was a self-employed equity trader and was exempt from paying them also. If only I could find a way to get around federal income tax...

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 09, 2001.

Wow, I never knew that you could become Amish. I always thought that you had to be born into the religion. My friends call me the Amish Pagan, maybe I'll go and start my own community! :)

Anne, I do hope that things work out the best for you and your family.

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), August 09, 2001.

Hmmm, I grew up around the Amish; helped the Amish carpenters (a driver); they taught me much of what I know about carpentry and other farm related skills. I even grew a beard (and wore a straw hat not like theirs, but a department store hat) when I got old enough. I loved their calendar picture farms and the lifestyle...I wanted to be Amish. I was very very accepted when I was an English helper; but when it came to converting I was discouraged by the "foreman" of the crew I worked with. I was told of the constant "breaking-up" of churches and movement from one church to another...bickering, bickering bickering. I am a Christian and see the unChristian like gossip and arguing over the letter of the Word that goes on in a Christian church. The same happens in the Amish churches, only much more intense and with much worse consequences...that is their life! Disagreement in interpreting Biblical principles or local doctrine is a terrible blight.

I'm not saying that it isn't a nice life, if that is what you want; but going in expecting idealism, God's love, and nirvana would be a mistake. They are people with people problems...they are far from perfect...we just never get to hear much about their problems---they are kept within the church. Much of their income is now dependent on their "idealistic" lifestyle. Imagine what would happen if the English found out they were just folks, complete with autrocities, sexual hangups, deviants, good people, saints(the earthly kind) and all the other strengths and weaknesses of character you see every day on the TV. If you have time, a local unconvert has a webite he has been advertising in our community:

amishabuse

it is pretty interesting. I wonder if it isn't anger driven, but still the guy has put an awful lot of work and time into it and his cause for it to be just motivated from a grudge.

Me, I'll live a lifestyle and stay within a church I can handle and have only God to answer to. I personally do not like to have to answer to a bunch of elders who intrepret the "law" in their own way.

It is more than a lifestyle...it is a religious doctrine...like all religions, it is flawed. I wish you God's wisdom.

-- JimR (jroberts1@cas.org), August 09, 2001.

Just a comment or two. Re: shunning, Thank God Jesus did not practice shunning. Where would that leave us?? Re: Christian Vote, The reason the government is in the sad shape it's in is because Christians are not involved. I am glad the founders of this country were Christians and VOTED. Re: Going to Heaven, We all can pick out a verse or two out of the Bible and say this is how it is. I'm going to stick with John 3:16. It says I WILL go to Heaven. I love to visit the Amish communities and always come away wishing I could live there with them. Well, it is 105 degrees outside and I have no intention of leaving my air conditioning and putting on a long sleeved black dress. LOL Anne, Go for it!! I admire your courage. I hope everything is as you expect them to be. One of these days, get to a computer and let us know how things are going for you. Good Luck

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), August 09, 2001.

Thank God that this religous post made it in to countryside. Very interesting read.

-- charles (clb@dixienet.com), August 09, 2001.

Dear Anne, I read with great interest all of the responses you recieved on your question. It sure seems there are a lot of people discouraging you and I can't say weather they are right or wrong. Each person must choose for him or herself whatever life they want for themseves and their families. I will say this though, I also gave much thought to joining the Amish. It was many years ago and my 3 children were very young. I had the romance of cooking meals on a wood stove and tucking my children in warm beds of handmade quilts. I am very serious here. After much thought and prayer, I realized that for me to join this group, would be so unfair to my children. I realized that I would be limiting their choices in life to an 8th grade education and laboring farm work. Now if someone "chooses" laboring farm work (as many of us have) that is one thing, but to limit your children's futures to that is unfair. I also had some disagreement with their religious doctrine. I then decided that I would reconsider when the children were grown and that was many years ago. Anne, we CAN "have our cake and eat it to". We can have this simple lifestyle and not be tied to a particular religious doctrine.I am a Christian. I live a simple plain Christian lifestyle. I am not indulgent and I am a "plain person". I dress rather plainly and I have been known to where a bonnet on occasion. But only because I choose to not because I have to. I am very wary of groups either religious or secular that have so many "rules". We live in America. The blood of many Americans were shed so we can have the freedoms we have today. And if you want to join the Amish, then do so, it is your right as an American to practice any religion you like and live any lifestyle you choose. I am just glad to be able to do the same. You can dress plainly, live a simple lifestyle, wear a bonnet and drive a buggy if you like; but Anne, this is America and you don't have to join the Amish to do these things and live this life. You are a romantic and so am I. I wish you were close by because I think you and I would have a marvelous time "spending the day canning and singing hymns". I am also interested in corresponding with you either e-mail or snail mail, regardless of what you decide to do. I do believe that we are indeed "kindred spirits". I will pray for you my dear Anne.

-- Ria in Ky (MinMin45@aol.com), August 09, 2001.

Hendo , I go to heuvoltin all the time .My leather makers are up there .Ever go to the cheese factory or wilards meat shop ?

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 09, 2001.

Anne, please don't close your eyes and put on blinders, on the outside the amish they look plenty good and for the most part, inside they try, just like the rest of us "english" to be good. Yes, there are english that are not good either. They are no exception.

My background with the amish has been my whole life time. From childhood and through my adult hood, this involves amish dealings in Indiana, Ohio, Pennsyvanlia, Missouri and Wisconsin. So my dealings with amish are NOT localized.

I'll leave it to that I admire them for what they are trying to do. But they have little respect for women and "english".

Major experience #1 early 1980's, draft horse market boom. My deceased husband was a former employee of New Idea. Through connections and visiting with amish, the owner of a small New Idea 10 manure spreader rebuilding business contacted my husband. Being naive (or thinking they were great people) my husband helped this man. So the deal was on paper, that was signed: we would get 5% of the total amount of parts bought through New Idea for helping to set him up and etc. Well, we received a check for $100.00 one time. But then time passed and no more money. Through other amish, we found out that this rebuilder bought thousands upon thousands of dollars of parts. One day I contacted New Idea and asked for the amount he bought. Surprisely, not now at least, he owned us over $5000.00 per agreement. The rebuilder denied even signing the paper. We were told to contact his bishop to clear up the matter.

The bishop laughed in our faces and said that we were the foolish ones. Threatening them with court, he laughed again, they do not do courts per say. When we asked about their uprighteousness, he laughed and said, the "english" will never learn. To this day, I have never seen that money rightfully signed by both parties.

Major incident #2 A friend of ours was living temporarily out of the area (Wisconsin), and this particular friend dealt in horse drawn equipment, he bought and resold. His supposedly had this good amish friend, notice the word supposedly, this amish man claimed that he would sell the equipment for this man our friend. Well, the amish got the equipment all right, sold it and kept the money to himself. However, the amish man slipped up one night, he stopped by our place to spent the night to sleep. He told us of his "devishest" venture of not paying this "english" man back due to the fact that this "english" man was getting all of the good equipment. Heck our friend would sell to whom ever paid the most and if that was an amish man, great. By the time we went through trying to find our "english" friend, living elsewhere temporary remember, that amish man from Ohio, made over 10 trips (back to back) to Wisconsin and managed to empty this man's barns, yes barns, 3 in fact. Our friend returned home immediately, found empty barns, I can testify to that as we were there too. Our friend contacted the sheriff here and there in Ohio. The sheriff here could only make out a report of stolen property. The Ohio sheriff would not do anything. He told my friend, he let's the amish go. Our friend also contacted the bishop, and in shorts, told the same thing that we was told by the bishop... "the english will never learn". He trusted them, just like we had.

Major incident #3 Pennsyvanlia amish man in the Lancaster area, again, another business man, contacted us for 3 corn binders. Told us he'd take 3 (which was all we could haul) in ANY condition and pay us $600.00 CASH each upon arrival. Find 3 binders, we haul 3 binders to Lancaster area, his own letter in our hand when we walk into the amish man's shop. Denies writing it, tho says yes, I'm so and so and I do rebuild binders. So we drive around the area, trying to pawn off per say, 3 binders. Sold one for $200.00 to have enough cash to buy gas back to Wisconsin. Another one gave to a man. The other one a guy bought and we had to badger him for the money over 3 years, sold it for $300.00. Why not haul them back to Wisconsin?? You know how much they weigh??? And we paid the farmers $150.00 each for them. We lost big time and never sold equipment like that again.

Major incident #4 I was a "amish taxi driver" for over 7 years in Wisconsin. They would repeatly write checks that bounced, then I demand cashed. They claimed that they didn't have it. Odd, they just bought over $100.00 worth of groceries and alot of it junk food. So I would not haul them. Course, nobody else in the area would haul them either due to the same kinds of dealings. But would you like to hear some of the things told me???

They loved "screwing the "english" man", and I can not count on my hands enough times I heard that statement when they got back into the van. I would hear these dealing of buying equipment, and how they would badger the "english" man and plead these "woe is me stories" to get a relucant "english" man to sell less than 1/2 most of the time. Oh, the laughter of these amish when driving away that they found another "fool". Yes, heard it from the bishops here too.

How their Bible said, in their minds, that they were allowed sex anytime with their wives. And yes, they are surpressive to their wives and treat them like dogs for the most part. Very seldom did you find a caring husband. But you did. Those men know how to put on "faces and fronts".

A neighbor amish man left his wife and 6 kids one winter to live with an english woman. And did not care that his wife had anything. How was she to work to provide. I couldn't stand it, I rallied our community together to get her fire wood and food. I have a great community.

The contractor type amish always charged more than "english" contractors. Yippers, they were hired all the time, cuz, "they were amish". The amish contractors would make fake phone calls for a roof to be done from a "english", get cost estimates and then raise his cost considerably more. I know, they used my phones and set at my table while we would eat, didn't bother them in the least. I would ask them to go onto the porch, but claimed they needed the table to write. So how could you NOT hear his conversation. Hey, I tell you they prided themselves on "screwing the "english" man" and coming out ahead.

They shoplifted, yes, adult men, and show and tell me. They would show me their receipt and no such thing on it, and still in the package.

I had a neighbor amish man flash (yes, naked) little girls riding their bikes, and we had a sheriff with back bone for arresting him for indecent exposure. But again, not enough as he bucketed to the bishop's pleads of not jailing him, and then talking the girl's family out of it (the charging part)

I knew many amish women, yes, some of them can think, that got birth control pills, and if they couldn't get them, they went to my neighbor lady who was a herbalist and got wild yam, which is supposedly to surppress the system into not getting pregnant. Heck, one of the last families to leave, she went and had her tubes tied. She secretly hid money from her quilt sales to have it done.

I only made friends, good friends, with one amish couple. His cousin in Missouri made his money by selling his daughters to other amish men for sell. When I met this Missouri amish man, I boldly asked him if that was true. Both wife and man said yes. Course, they could have lied, but the wife's eyes revealed the anguish.

Yes, the amish don't pay social security tax per say, but some do. However, I knew several older couples that drew SSI for disability. They never paid into the system. They too would laugh (yes, I mean laugh) that they could draw it for about 2 years before they would be caught. Guess our system is not as fast as we would think. ANd then they just didn't get any more money.

Then knew many young couples that got medical assistance because the community would not help them out.

OH, OH the stories I could tell. I learned real quick from another driver, shut up and don't tell... you'll learn so much that you don't want to know about them, that one could write a book.

Granted, this is just a sampling of what I have experience. I do not trust any amish man, even my good friends, tho they would warn me about doings within the community or how and what I could get hurt with from them.

For the most part, they aim, just like us to be good folks. However, take the rose colored glasses off and look at what you are getting into.

Be prepared to work hard, harder than you can imagine in sweltering heat in the house by canning on a wood stove, working more hours than you thought imagineable with not much help....

We had 3 couple friends that "turned" amish, today all three are english again and divorced.

Just sharing what I know. And I wish that I didn't know and experience what I have, cuz it has blown my perception of amish right out of the water. I hate seeing "english" folks get hurt by amish (some of them) who take advantage of their "quaintness" to gain for themselves.

Yes, this settlement is gone due to their fighting between themselves and breaking up. This settlement here in Wisconsin was over 30 years old. But many other settlements have dissolved around. They could not get along between themselves.

-- Hawkflying (soaringhighinthesky@hotmail.com), August 09, 2001.

It would be interesting if you would be able to get online in a year or so and check back with us....let us know if your expectations were met, exceeded, or even just different.

Just as some of us had dreams of homesteading which turned out a bit different than we imagined, joining the Amish could be a similar experience. Your honest impressions could be valuable to some of us. Good luck to you.

-- sheepish (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), August 09, 2001.

The person who starts a church is not the one who makes the rules. The members make the rules.

Men telling of their "visions" in church is not at all normal in an Amish worship service, which is always very solemn.

That amishabuse site is very sad. David Yoder's bitterness towards the Amish is astounding. And does anyone really think that a Christian could have written that stuff? In that way??

I don't really consider myself a romantic at all. I believe we need to think more in terms of eternity, rather than just what we want in this life. An 8th grade education, for example, is more than adequate. Ria in KY, I think we need to submit to one another as Christians. What better way to do that than to join a church? What other church could I possibly join with my beliefs??

The Amish we know have taken in a woman who was abandoned by her husband. She has about 8 children still at home. The church has given her a home, food, firewood, and paid her past debts. She can never remarry, but they take care of her. So much for treating women like dogs and trying to cheat and hurt the English. This woman was English!

This church does not permit its members to advertise anything as "Amish". They are not trying to make money off that name, or off their religion.

I think it is awful that Amish women you know had their tubes tied or used birth control! The bible tells us that children are wanted and they are a blessing. If we want to limit how many the Lord blesses us with, then we must not see them the way He does.

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

Why could the english woman never remarry?

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 09, 2001.

Dear Anne, I do belong to a very loving and generous church. Collectively and individually we provide care to many unfortunate individuals both Christian and non- Christian. I store my treasure in things above not here on earth as the scripture says. You are choosing to limit the futures of your children and I see that as wrong. An 8th grade education maybe more than sufficient in Amish communities, but if your children decide they don't choose this lifestyle, they will really be at a grave disadvantage. There are two young men (early twenties) in our church. They are loving and kind .They are deeply hurt by the people who are supposed to be loving and kind and gentile people. These are not wild kids. These are good Christian young men who don't deserve to be treated the way they have. They are really struggling to get along. It is truley difficult to get jobs with an 8th grade education. I know you probably think they should have stayed Amish. I find it difficult to endorse a religion and way of life that can be so damaging to people just because they dare to step out of the society. How can a loving and kind and gentle group of people be so unloving. I wish you well. It seems like your mind is already made up, so nothing more can be said. You asked for our opinion and you sure have received many.

-- Ria in Ky (MinMin45@aol.com), August 09, 2001.

The English woman whose husband left her cannot remarry because Jesus said that to divorce and remarry is to commit adultery. God's plan is for one man and one woman to marry for life. The woman's hope is that her husband would eventually repent and return.

Now if someone is divorced and remarried before coming to a saving knowledge of the Lord, some Amish believe they are forgiven and no restitution can be made. Most Mennonites and Amish would require such a couple to separate. The ones we are joining have the former approach.

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 09, 2001.

You might think about the following passages and please don't dismiss them without praying about them.

Colossians 2:18-23

"18 Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship os angels, taking his stand on visions [he claims] he has seen, vainly puffed us by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit, 19 And not holding fast to the Head from Whom the entire body, supplied and knit together by means of its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. 20 If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world's crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? [Why do you submit to rules and regulations?--such as] 21 Do not handle [this], Do not taste [that], Do not even touch [them], 22 Referring to things all of which perish with being used. To do this is to follow human precepts and doctrines, 23 Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh.]"

That is from the Aplified Version, which goes back to the original language: before HIGH GERMAN.

The second passage speaks about divisions within the Body of Christ.

I Corinthians 1:10-13

"10 But I urge and entreat you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in perfect harmony and full agreement in what you say, and that there be no dissensions or factions or divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in your common understanding and in your opinions and judgements. 11 for it has been made clear to me my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions and wrangling and factions among you. 12 What I mean is this, that each of you [either] says, I belong to Paul, of I belong to Apollos, or I belong to Cephas (Peter), or I belong to Christ. 13 Is Christ (the Messiah) divided into parts? Was Paul crucified on behalf of you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?"

Now, that is all I have to say.

-- stephanie nosacek (pospossum@earthlink.net), August 09, 2001.

Ria made this statement:

"We live in America. The blood of many Americans were shed so we can have the freedoms we have today. And if you want to join the Amish, then do so, it is your right as an American to practice any religion you like and live any lifestyle you choose."

She's exactly right about why we have our freedom and one reason I could never join the Amish is because they are pacifists.

I too would like to hear how things turn out for you Anne and thank you for sharing this with us. What an interesting "conversation" this has been so far.

-- Terry - NW Ohio (aunt_tm@hotmail.com), August 09, 2001.

Hi Anne. I wish you well on your new venture. I live quite near to the largest Amish settlement west of the Mississippi, and while I admire many things about this Old Order community (and couldn't imagine not being able to shop at their groceries), I could not join them, for many reasons (mostly spiritual). I am a born-again Christian, and do choose to live simply so that I can better serve my Lord.

About the blessings of children, you won't get any flack from me...my husband and I believe the same. So far we've been blessed with four...

-- Tami Raymond (miketami@iowatelecom.net), August 10, 2001.

It is my understanding being born into an Amish family does not make you Amish. When children are of a certain age (18 I think) they are told to go out and experience the world, being allowed to just about do anything they want. I believe they have an expression for this time along the lines of The Wild Years. For some their rebellion may be putting a 12 volt radio in their buggy. For others it is dance parties. For others it might be alcohol, drugs and sex. If they decide to stay Amish, then they are baptized into it, accepting all of the ways of their paricular sect.

It is also my understanding an Amish man counts his wealth by the number of his children.

It hasn't been all that long since large families on the farm were common. My mother (born in 1913) came from a family of 14 children. The number was because they could expect to lose some through childhood illnesses, help was needed on the farm and their children were their old age security.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 10, 2001.

The Amish do not *tell* their children to go experience the world. It just so happens that teenagers reach an age where they are curious about things. Doesn't this happen outside the Amish as well? The Amish happen to have a name for it, "Rumspringe". Loosely translated, it means "running around". When the English think of "running around", terrible thoughts tend to go through our heads. But for most Amish youth it simply means they are old enough to have some free time, go to the singings, and not have to account for every second of their lives. They also do some real soul searching to decide if the Amish church is the right one to join.

As for people having large families, I doubt they sat down and calculated how many they would need to account for loss due to death, labor on the farm, and someone to care for them in old age! You make it sound like that was their sole reasons! How about the fact that children were seen as a blessing and wanted, rather than a nuisance?

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 10, 2001.

Anne,

Thank you for putting up with all of us.

-- Rick#7 (rick7@postmark.net), August 10, 2001.

Rick, I understand that there are a lot of misconceptions in both directions regarding the Amish. There are those who think they are terrible sinners, and there are those who think they are angels. Of course, they are only human. But we really want to join with a church that has the same beliefs as we, and we feel it is important to live a simple lifestyle. The bible tells us to be content with food and raiment! Anyway, I am happy to have the opportunity to discuss the church we have found.

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 10, 2001.

I read alot of the Amish abuse link , do the really "bed date " ? Thats insane ! Kinda like putting a piece of chocolate in front of me and not expecting me to eat it . I never knew that .I do have a problem with not using birth control.I probally could never carry another child full term and have also had 3 c-sections .Should my husband have let me or my child die ? My god is a loveing one who wants to save people from pain and would not want a mother or child to die when it could have been prevented .After all he also created the doctors .I have 4 children and can not imagine not being here to take care of them , nor can I imagine not having 1 of them .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 10, 2001.

A couple a years ago I read where someone had checked the vital statistics of the Puritans. They found over half of first children were born within nine months of marriage.

I think facts on the farm speak for themselves on the number of children.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 10, 2001.

Perhaps the large number of children is a sign of good health.

-- Rick#7 (rick7@postmark.net), August 10, 2001.

Can we start a thread on how many times we have been screwed by non- amish ?

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 10, 2001.

yeah really Patty.. I always dislike seeing people singling out any particular ethnicity, culture, religion, etc as people who are bad to deal with or any other kind of broad brush painting. I personally have never been screwed over by Amish, in fact I had quite a few do me favors. I sure have been screwed over by other people but I won't subject the thread to my long list of incidents. Most of the offenders were people such as 'english' who like to pick on anyone different from them. Can we start a thread to bash them?

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 10, 2001.

Website detailing the Amish/UN/New World Order ties.

http://sonoguy.tripod.com/recon.html

-- Phil Abole (user1000@hotbot.com), August 10, 2001.

Dave , I'm in a bitchy mood lets start bashing ! Hehe.I have not had bad experiences with the amish .They have been more than reasonable with work/prices thay have done for me .They broke my horse for $5.00 a day and did a great job .A 8 ft long picnic table out of nice heavy wood for $70.00 ,and a beatiful heavy custom made horse bridle with braided reins and bit for $35.00.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 10, 2001.

Sorry I'm jumping into this late ,I've been away.I have a dear friend who has been in the amish 7 years,she and her family left.She disclosed to an english therapist ,that her husband was beating her and in order to stay in the amish,had to come before the congregation and apologize to her husband,which she would not,When,and since they have "left"they can no longer take off their hay,buy wood,flour or sell their produce because the equipment and manpower was communal and they are shunned.I too,was in love with that way of life and I admire them greatly,but it is ofcourse not all rosy.Before you say this is the exception ,I am told it is common.She has told me of the pressures of "the clothesline"--that the elder women would check too see that all your clothes were the right colours.My friends husband also tells me that because of the secrecy about sexual matters that the boys tend towards problems in that area as well.By the way they are not bitter in the least,they knew this would happen when they chose to leave..cuz thats the way it is.Sorry if this is offensive to anyone,It broke my heart to here these things go on ,but I think we have to stop running to something we think is perfect and bloom where we are planted.

-- teri (dnsmacbeth@aol.com), August 10, 2001.

More than one person has been surprised this thread was allowed to continue. The reason is simple, it has been a discussion or quisi- debate rather than degrading into name calling or spite. No one is witnessing or prophetizing their religion is better than anyone else's. Had those happened, it would have likely been terminated, or at least some post against it deleted.

That said, I think any connection of the Amish to the 'New World Order' is pretty, pretty, pretty farfetched.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 10, 2001.

The Amish are not communal.

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 10, 2001.

This has been a very interesting discussion. Thanks to Anne for introducing it, and to all who have participated in such a civil manner. Anne, I know it must be difficult to receive so many negative answers to your query when I am sure that you are very excited about the upcoming transition in your life. Thank you for accepting the dissenting opinions so gracefully.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 10, 2001.

How about a positive Amish story? This documentary follows pretty close to the Amish families I've had experience with. http://www.discovery.com/area/exploration/amish/amish1.html Someone said abuse was common rather than the exception. I'm sorry but I can't agree there. Maybe in some areas and certain communities it is but the average Old Order Amish aren't like that. I wonder if some are confusing other similar sects like the Huderites in Montana, etc. More than a few times, regardless of the rules, I witnessed the Amish wife having more say in things than her husband in a discrete round about way.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 10, 2001.

The Amish wife almost always manages the home, and most manage the checkbook!

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 10, 2001.

Anne, the reason families were so large is that there was no safe, effective form of birth control. Other than abstinence, which most men would never tolerate. My grandmother is 91. In her day, the only relief a woman could get from pregnancy after pregnancy was a coat-hanger abortion performed by a back-alley butcher. Some women were desperate enough to go that route, and they died. Probably you'd say it was their just deserts. Personally, I feel sorry for women driven to such lengths, who died in pain, terror, and shame because they could not feed another mouth.

If they could have stopped the pregnancy altogether, they would have, but failing that, they had a choice between starvation for all or the loss of one. It's easy to pass judgement. It's much harder to look starvation in the face, to watch your little ones grow pinched and wan, their bellies swelling out over little stick legs, and their too-old eyes staring dully, hopelessly out of skull-like faces. If you could choose to allow the entire family to starve rather than end one pregnancy, you're a lot harder hearted than I am.

Yes, high birth rates WERE encouraged in the bible due to high infant and maternal mortality, and the high incidence of death due to disease in early childhood. If the women didn't pump the kids out just as fast as they could, the tribe would die out. It was simply survival. Those conditions no longer exist. Antibiotics have directly contributed to the explosive growth of the world population. It says "be FRUITFUL and multiply". Just "multiplying" isn't fruitful. It's destructive. If god REALLY REALLY wants somebody to get pregnant, do you have so little faith in his power as to think a little white pill would stop it?

There are a whole lot of things in the bible that nobody follows anymore. There are rules governing the disposition of slaves, calling out when it is and isn't OK to rape the enemy's women, when you can sell your daughter into slavery, and under what circumstances it is ok (nay, even REQUIRED) to beat/stone your wife/daughter/son to death.

Christ was a Jew. Jewish men were literate, almost universally literate (so they could read the Talmud). Ergo, unless he was dyslexic, Christ was literate. Yet, he never wrote anything of his own. Things that make you go, Hmmmm....

But back to the Amish. I've had good and bad experiences with Amish. The rules of every community I have gotten close enough to know anything about were NOT set by the membership, they were set by the leadership, either one man or a small group of men. You do as you please, but the Amish are just people, with good, bad, and indifferent aspects. For most of the English, the society is far to restrictive and exclusive. I, too, would be interested to see what you have to say after a year or two. Even MORE interested what your children have to say by then ...

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 11, 2001.

Anne,I don't understand your definition of communal?Could you elaborate?

-- teri (dnsmacbeth@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

Yes, the Amish are just like other people, the group has good, bad , beautiful, and ugly people, just like all other humans. Problem is, the Amish are forbidden to acknowledge that openly and honestly. If someone is not yet excommunicated from the Amish church, but is living in sin, that person is sheltered from the consequences of that sin far too often.

May I share a painful experience that happend in my own family? My sis is married to my hubby's brother. They attended a Beachy-Amish church. For 14 years, he raped all 9 of their children. My sis didnt want to acknowledge something wasnt right in her marriage, because of course divorce was out of the question. The Beachys have strong carry-overs from the Amish in authoritarianism of the males, and subservience of females. My sis was caught. She knew her marriage was falling to peices, but all the council they were allowed was that which the church leadership gave out, which only amounted to, "The only reason a husband fails in his role is because the wife falls short. If you were more submissive, you would find your marriage healed." So she chose psychological blindness to what was going on in her family. All she knew was that she was hurt and ignored, and that she had no way out. To question her husband was spiritual suicide.

One day, her teenaged adopted son came to her in the kitchen and begged her to listen, and spilled out the whole sordid story. Every one of the kids, from 16 down to 5, had been raped repeatedly, furthermore, there was forced incest between brothers and between sister and brother, also group sex with the children. For two days, sis was in a daze. then she suddenly snapped to attention: SHE was now responsible! She did what any good Beachy Amish would do- call the bishop. I am not clear on all the details, but somehow she had the courage to reach beyond the church authorities, and contact a local christian councilling service. They in turn, reported it to the civil authorities. He was arrested as he was staying in the bishop's basement.

He is currently serving multiple life sentences with a slim chance of parole in a few years.

But can you imagine how the Beachy Church handled this? In a typically Amish fashion. They packed out the courtroom in support for her HUSBAND. They all wept in sorrow over his fate, but no support was expressed for my sister. This is a very typical Amish mindset.

They attempted to council my sis, telling her that it was her fault. Her insubmission was obviously the reason he sought sexual relief elsewhere. Sis almost committed suicide several times over the next several years as she lost her finances, her church and her friends. The people of the community rallied behind her as the Beachys turned against her. Of course, all her children are gossipped about in all the church circles. They are marked for life.

Sis has since then moved hundreds of miles away, and left the Beachys. She is finding a new life, but lives in fear of the day he gets out. She is still bound to the idea that she is not allowed by God to divorce the scoundrel. Of course, the Beachy church is planning to take the poor victimised man in when he gets out.

You see, in the Amish church, if anyone submits to the authorities of the church, he is recognised as a brother in the Lord. This requires no real heart change, only a lip service and outward comformity in dress and lifestyle.

The verse in the Bible that tells us not to eat with such an one does not apply to those who are not called brothers. It applies to those who are called brothers, and rebelliously live in sin. Therefore, the Amish apply this verse all wrong. If a man is called a brother and lives in rebellious sin, we are to refuse to associate with that man. However, if the church excommunicates him, and no longer calls him a brother, the verse no longer applies. We are then free to treat him as Jesus treated publicans and sinners - eating with them in their houses!

I truely hope you reconcider your intention of joining the Amish. You say you are joining a more spiritual, more correct Amish church. But concider what will happen to your children and grandchildren. It is common for young people to marry to those outside of their own community. How would you feel 40 years down the road, to see your grandchildren marrying into a church that practiced bed courtship? And if no one has clued you in on that subject yet, you definately have had the wool pulled over your eyes!

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

I went to www.amishabuse.com and read a great deal of it. I've also been following this thread with great interest. I feel that the one thing we must all realize is that when people form a community-any community-there will be good and bad people. Some will be kind, and others mean. You will find evil and good. And so it goes with the Amish. I'm certain that we all have the good sense not to say they are all bad people. God bless!

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), August 11, 2001.

Anne, I really didn't have time to read all of the thread here so I hope what I am about to say is not redundant. I can really sympathize with your feelings here as I have also desired in my heart to join the Amish at one time. I love the simplicity of the Amish lifestyle and the closeness of the community. I live in an Amish township in Ohio and have gotton to know them alot better since living here. I have changed my mind. Don't get me wrong. I love the Amish still, but I have discovered some inconsistencies that disturb me.

Do you have children? I do and I would not want them associating with the Amish youth around here. A conservative Mennonite friend of mine had a bottle of beer smashed over his head by an Amish young man recently for trying to share something out of the bible with them.

One of my good friends is Amish and we have talked alot about the Amish faith. Around here the Amish church is conducted in High German. The Amish around here speak Pennsylvania Dutch and understand VERY little of what goes on at the services and do not read their bibles. In fact, an interest in studying the bible can get you excommunicated around here. You follow the Ortung (spelling?) and are not supposed to question or search for answers in the bible. Amish law differs from area to area here. Some having indoor plumbing - some not. It can be quite difficult for the Amish to relocate and come under submission of a stricter setting.

I have done alot of study of the Anabaptist faith. In it's origin it was quite close to what the early church followed but I believe the Amish have lost much of the genuiness of the original Anabaptists. I look at the fruit growing on the tree to tell if it is any good after being involved in some questionable religious movements in the past. I think the fruit growing in the Amish tree around here is pretty rotten. It is shiny and red on the outside (for those of us who desire to live in a similar holiness and simplicity of lifestyle), but the inside is rotton and unfit. Man looks on the outward - God looks on the heart. I see much in the hearts of the Amish that is hypocritical. Of course, this is not with all the Amish I know. I have met some sincere, god-fearing people in the community who are sold out for God and want to live right. But most I know live this way because they don't want to be excommunicated and they are always seeing how close to the line they can get without crossing it. Most I know never crack their bibles or pray regularily. I have seen alot through the eyes of my friend. Alot goes on in the community that you'll never see if you haven't lived it. I haven't, but my friend has. She is content being Amish and would never change though.

I know alot more moral depravity is evident in the world at large than in this community. I have to admit that if the Amish left my area the standards would go down. I like living among them and I love them as a people. I have a deep desire to see them apply what they practice externally to their hearts. Yet the few that do seem to get excommunicated. Not for driving cars or having electricity are they put out - but for reading their bibles or attending a bible study.

You may e-mail me personally if you want about this topic. I had a such a deep desire to be a part of this community and I understand where your at.

-- Tiffani Cappello (cappello@alltel.net), August 11, 2001.

Anne,

Forgive the reply coming so late: I have been victim to a virus which had completely disabled my computer!

I have seriously considered joining the Amish. The simple life and close community was definately the draw for me. When I became a Jehovah's Witness, I wondered why they were not in communes(not literal here) as the Amish were because they claimed to want no part of the "world". There are definately positive points for arguing for becoming Amish. My experience as a JW has warned me away from any highly controlled group though. The bible's reference to shunning is simply not including a brother, or sister, in your home for meetings involving worship: contrary to high control groups who say it means complete non-communication with the shunned indiviual. As with any group which is patriarcal in a strict sense, there is always the possibility of abuse of this authority. I was told to take personality altering drugs so that I would be more submissive to my husband who was sexually abusing my then 4 year old daughter. The elders would not even allow me to speak unless my husband was present. When he was present he interrupted with lies so much that I could not get a word in edgewise. I eventually chose shunning over allowing abuse go on in my household. Please understand that I KNOW not all religiously orientated men are like that. I strongly feel that if both partners in a marriage choose a religion, no matter how 'cultish' it seems to outsiders, they should be able to raise their children in that religion.

Another thing which I would hope you would consider is that the 'bible' was chosen by men of the Catholic church in power at ONE period of time, therefore what you are basing your life choices upon are not god-given books, but books chosen by men not of your religion (most likely).

When it comes to people of another religion, I always take into consideration that if there is an almighty god, he must not be so violently opposed to the various religions for if he was, he could have destroyed them or at least made his will known to us all at any time. Thousands of years is more than adequate enough time to prove any points he might have wanted to make!

Anne, again, I say if your family agrees, there is nothing wrong with choosing a specific group to live and worship with, however if at any time a member of your family chooses not to live in accordance with a sect's(I purposely do not say 'god's) ways, I would hope you would allow them that freedom and the utmost respect for them. I here remember the story of the woman at the well who was an adulteress and non-Jew whom Jesus first revealed his true nature to. Do not be so ruled by men's interpretations that you lose sight of having a relationship with god. Blessings,

Epona

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

Anne... do you have children??? how close are they??? does your husband help out with them???

I consider children a blessing too I have 7 of them six in 9 years and with running a farm and homeschooling and doing gardens and the related stuff it about killed me lots of responsibility and work without the help of my hubby who pulled the "supreme" leader part

tho I never had my tubes tied or had an abortion there were times I considered both it was all I could do... to keep one foot in front of the other and I recognize that look in the amish women... as I have been there and done that

-- Hawkflying (soaringhighinthesky@hotmail.com), August 11, 2001.

The Amish are not communal. That is, they each own their own land and provide for their own families. But if there is a need, they help each other. One person on this board had said that someone left and could no longer provide for their family because everything was owned by the community. I just wanted to clear that up. The Amish are not communal. The family that left should have had what they needed to care for their family, just as anyone else would.

I do have 5 children. My husband does not help at home on a regular basis because at this time he works away from home all week. We are praying about this situation, that we could get out of debt and he could come home to work. I currently care for the children, the horses, the milk cow, and the chickens. We also homeschool. We are gradually moving toward being non-electric, and I am selling my vehicle soon, I hope.

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 12, 2001.

Hawklady:

Once a year I go to a consignment auction in the Amish/Mennonite community near Cane Creek, TN. I notice a very pretty young lady in her late teens and overhead someone say she had just gotten married. Since she is there each year, I continue to notice her. Last I saw her she had three on the ground and was carrying a fourth child. Instead of looking her age (probably 21-22), she now looks more like 30. From what little I have seen, it is a far harder life for women than men, particularly the early years before the children are old enough to help out.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 12, 2001.

Anne, the Amish aren't EXACTLY communal, but they tend to sell each other things. So if a fellow is running a sawmill, the equipment and building and land are likely owned by other Amish, and he pays them off, like a loan. If he is shunned, or leaves the community, the equipment stays. If he is working at this sawmill, and is shunned, he is likely to lose his job. If he leaves the community or is excommunicated he definitely loses his job. In either case - no means of support, and with an 8th grade level of education, and no idea of how to fit in with the English or how things work in the rest of the world, he's not likely to find a job amongst the English, either.

But, you are obviously emotionally attached to those blinders you're wearing. Its your kids I feel sorry for.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 12, 2001.

That kind of thing can happen in any small tightknit community, not just with Amish. You don't have to be Amish to end up being shunned by a community and losing business. I guess it's more sensational to focus on rare isolated incidents with Amish and look for the bad in it all. Amish are an easy target also. Where I grew up I witnessed alot of discrimination against Amish. It was little different from what was said about and done to non-whites. Looking at the big picture, the Amish overall have less incidents of abuse, oppression, drug/alcohol problems, etc. Half the kids I was around when I was growing up were Amish and I don't recall any that seemed unhappy and oppressed. They also weren't worked any harder than any of us other farm kids but they did tend to complain less. A few of them might have gotten a bit on the wild side but nothing compared to the 'english'. If someone did an informal survey of the area I was raised in and compared the Amish kids to the 'english' kids, they'd now find 20 years later that more of the Amish kids went on to productive successful problem free lives. An education past 8th grade, tele-vision, and living like the status-quo will not keep people from turning into drunks, child molesters, wife beaters and all the other things being aligned with Amish in some of these posts.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 12, 2001.

Hate to tell you this, Dave, but its not rare amongst the Amish to shun. Mennonites do it to. The stricter the sect, the more likely it is you'll be shunned. Most of this stuff is pure control. Has nothing to do with morals, religion, or ethics.

I don't think anybody's claiming the Amish are more likely to be wife-beaters, child molesters, child abusers, thieves, what have you.

The problem is when they ARE (child-molesters, whatever) they tend to get away with it. Either nobody does anything about it, or they get shunned for a few weeks and go right back to it. Like the guy said, "if you're wearing the Amish clothes, the same laws don't apply".

Try to turn an Amish family in for child abuse. You'll get "oh, but the Amish are non-violent, they wouldn't do that." It's tough to send an Amish to jail, no matter the behaviour, no matter the evidence.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 12, 2001.

Oh, yeah. And they don't have fewer incidents of abuse. They just don't REPORT it. Big difference.

I grew up amongst Amish and Mennonites (these Mennonites were stricter than some Amish I have known). I know people who were excommunicated or left both communities. It ain't all its cracked up to be, having an 8th grade or lower education is a real handicap. I'll bet you've got better than an 8th grade education. Being kept ignorant surely doesn't discourage wife beating, child molesting, etc.

Hate to tell you this, but a lot of ex-Amish consider the sects they left (strict sects nearly always) to be cults.

Strict control; control of thought and education; control right down to how a woman wears a scarf and how she makes her underwear; can't do anything that goes against the leader's authority; if you leave, and leave family behind you, there's a good chance that family will suffer until you come back; how is all of this any different than a cult?

Are ALL Amish like this? Of course not. Nobody said they are. But there's a significant number that are. And the rest have the same vices - lying, cheating, stealing, wife beating, a variety of sexual perversions - that the rest of the population suffers from. The only real difference is that as long as they prey mostly on each other they get away with it.

Closing your eyes to it and saying it doesn't exist because all the Amish YOU know are such nice people doesn't change the fact that (firstly) you don't really know what they're like because they put on their best faces for the English and (secondly) it is part of their culture to NEVER talk about this stuff to the English, and usually not openly among themselves either. Dirty Little Secrets are nothing new, and while not peculiar to the Amish, the tightly controlled way in which they live makes it almost an instution.

As for being "shunned" in a less cohesive community - probably, it happens. But its NOTHING like being collectively, purposely, concentratedly shunned by your entire community and family.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 12, 2001.

On education, I would like to note my Mother completed the 8th grade. We are fairly sure my Father didn't complete the 6th. Both did extremely well in life. I think it is determination more than education.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 12, 2001.

Ken.

Its a whole 'nother world out there than it was when our parents were young.

You can't even get hired at McDonald's any more without a high school diploma.

Any parent who purposely withholds education from their child is doing them a grave disservice.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 12, 2001.

I would imagine it'd be pretty simple for someone with an Amish 8th grade education to pass a states GED test if they needed a high school diploma.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 12, 2001.

That's pure imagination, Dave. My hubby only got a 7th grade education, as his dad was amish at heart. He has suffered economically and socially all his life from this parent-inflicted handicap.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 13, 2001.

Interesting a grown man would continue to 'suffer' from a "parent inflicted handicap" like lack of 'education'. Education doesnt happen in a classroom, it happens within one's own brain and life experience. When I feel deficient in any area in such a way that it affects my life or well-being, I get busy and learn whatever it is I lack. The resources to do so are available to anyone with the ambition for most any subject imaginable. One doesnt stop learning just because one is no longer a child! Most of what one 'learns' in a classroom is quickly forgotten after the test anyway. I think that after one aquires the basic learning skills, which are learned in the first few grades anyway,real knowledge comes from using those skills to teach oneself those things that interest us as individuals.

As to an 8th grade education being a 'grave disservice' to ones' children, yes, I believe children should be able to make most of their own choices that concern their lives, and if they wish to continue with formal education they should not be prevented from doing so. On the other hand, to assume that they will be better educated because they have a high school diploma, or a college degree is silly, IMO. I have known many fools with lots of letters behind their names. We have been lead to believe a 'good education' is the key to a 'good job', when the truth seems to be closer to a 'good education' often leads to a huge debt, disappointment in job searching, or a healthy paycheck but a meaningless, unsatisfying existence. To a creative, industrious person with a healthy concept of themselves, a formal education can actually be a detriment to their creativity and success.

Incidentally, you do not have to have a high school diploma to work at McDonalds, at least not around here!

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), August 13, 2001.

Well, I still side with what Ken said about determination. I effectively stopped participating in school after 8th grade, then eventually dropped out and got my GED. It's never hindered me. I'd also note that the GED test doesn't really require much more than an 8th grade education to pass. I know I would have dropped out much sooner if I realized how simple it was. Employers rarely verify high school education in the hiring process anyway. On the same note I've known quite a few with 4 year college degrees who accomplished nothing with their lives. What Earthmama said is very true. Education is a life long process and it doesn't require sitting in a classroom. I learn new things everyday. The Amish kids don't stop learning after 8th grade, they go into apprenticeship to learn a trade. Judging by what goes on in public schools nowadays I'm guessing that an 8th grade Amish education would put an 8th grade public school education to shame.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 13, 2001.

Dave, a child who is trained from babyhood to think of education in a negative light will have a lifelong hangup, inflicted by his parent. My husband could get his GED, as he is not stupid. But his Dad brainwashed him all through his childhood to think that he doesnt need it. So he goes through life thinking that his lack of education is acceptable, and then cant understand why he isnt as accepted socially. Also, a child who is told repeatedly that he is stupid, will have a inner denial mechanism in place to defend himself psychologically. I believe this is one reason my hubby thinks he needs no further education. And he got it directly from the Amish mindset he was trained in by his Amish-minded Dad. Now, I know of some amish-raised people who left and became educated, so you cannot apply this with a broad brush to every Amish child. But it does factor in. The amish DO usually tell their kids that they are dumb. And they DO usually discipline in an abusive fashion. I see it in my own family. Those who are in stricter churches, whip their children more mercilessly. Those who are least strict, tend to discipline with reasoning and gentlness. Guess who gets the best results? This may be one reason why the amish youth play around more with rebellion- they have to celebrate the freedom of adulthood with more emphasis on doing the opposite of what their heavy-handed parents demanded up to that point.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 13, 2001.

I disagree that formal education is a deterrent to happiness and sound self-esteem. Education is a very personal choice and there are no right or wrong ways to go about acquiring an education. It always bothers me when people put down college or "formal education." There is no reason to say one method of learning is better than the other.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), August 13, 2001.

. Employers rarely verify high school education in the hiring process anyway. ................

Perhaps with entry level types of jobs. Certainly not the type of job my children have been conditioned from birth to attain to. College around our house has always been the 13th grade, never a question in our minds our kids would go to college, and I am very proud that my oldest is out of college, and my middle daughter leaves this Wednesday for college. Now with education under their belt if they choose to work for themselves, to work for somebody else, or work at McDonalds, they will have the education and the choices to do so.

Anne, This has got to be the biggest problem I have with your Amish quest, your children, raising computer illiterate children you THINK are going to want to stay at home and work in the family fields, learning a trade, marrying a girl or an old man in the community. This just very simply reduces your daughters to be housewives and your sons to work for minimum wages, if/when they choose to leave the fold. Sorry, but when my children are/were old enough to make choices for themselves, to join a cult or whatever, I want them to be well informed and have other choices to make. To not only have so many children that on your own you will have no choices but to stay in any kind of situation you put you and your kids into, but now to speak of not having a car, which then leaves you at the mercy of other folks having to help you, in just simply an accident, how would you get your baby to the hospital? I believe in freedom of choice, but I certainly do think we owe our children more than this. You are choosing a lifetime of servatuide for your daughters. Something that is totally alien to everything I want for my two! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 13, 2001.

Amy, the points you made are I think well made in my post. I, for one, didnt however say that formal education IS a detriment, I said it CAN BE one; there is quite a difference. In other words, ASSUMING that formal education is necessary and productive for most everyone (as in Vicki's reference to grade 13), is, in my opinion, a mistake. I feel this dependence on the educational system to 'educate' people is often a recipe for heartache and disappointment. The issue of personal choice was very well covered in my entry; indeed, that was my main point! :)

Vicki: this statement says it all for me: "Certainly not the type of job my children have been conditioned from birth to attain to.." This is the antithesis of how I raised my kids.......I followed THEIR lead, and let them show themselves, and me. what kind of 'job' they would attain to......and they are brilliant, and loving and creative, and already successfull, all without a day spent in a classroom, and very little exposure to even a textbook.

Just another perspective; I mean no criticism of those who chose the conventional route, but to merely point out that there are myriad ways of thinking and being, and we all must find our own.

Blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), August 13, 2001.

OK, y'all, I have lived for the last 3 years as would someone with no better than a high school diploma. I am here to tell you, if you want better than part time, minimum wage work, you HAVE to have a high school diploma. How many people think they can live on $100 a week, which is the take home pay you'll get for 20 hours a week at Mickey D's?

I have a college degree; however, I quickly found that claiming it was a detriment here in the small town I chose to move to. It marked me as an overqualified yuppie who wouldn't know hard work if it jumped up and bit her. I stopped claiming the degree, and got hired as a fry cook in a chinese restaurant. I worked there for over a year. It's the only job, other than the one I have now, that I was able to land in three years time out here. Why? Because other than my programming skills, I had no marketable skills and no work experience that I could claim in the last 20 years. I was at least one up on an Amish coming into this society - I knew how the society works, and I had (and claimed) a high school degree. Guess that makes me two up ...

Now, imagine an Amish woman, never made it past the eighth grade (if she was allowed to attend that far) trying to make it on her own out here in the real world. BTW, for whoever thought that Amish schools are automatically superior to English schools - think again. Some may be adequate enough, but many are so substandard as to be laughable. What do you expect, when the kids are being taught by a 15 year old Amish girl who's educational outlook has been purposely stunted by her culture? In the stricter sects, which by and large is where the major problems are anyway, the kids don't even learn to read English.

During the year that I worked for the restaurant, I met several teenage high school dropouts, mostly girls. Sixteen year old girls, basically dropped out of school in their sophomore year.

These girls tried desperately to get full time jobs to support themselves - and couldn't. Mickey D's would hire them alright - for twenty hours a week, with shifting schedules. The constant unreliability in the scheduling meant they couldn't go out and get two of these crummy jobs even if they wanted to.

One of the girls got a full time job - for 2.50 an hour. Ostensibly hired as a waitress, the restaurant owner really had her working in the back as a cook. Of course, this meant - no tips to make up the shortfall in her hourly wage.

Several of these girls tried to get jobs at local factories. Every one of them failed in the attempt - no high school diploma, no GED - no job. Yes, they do check your high school diploma.

If these girls don't go back to high school, they will ALWAYS be limited in their employment opportunities. ALL of them, every single one, were involved with abusive and/or alcoholic boyfriends, in a couple of cases significantly older than they were, because, basically, they needed somebody to help pay the rent, or who would pay the rent for them. These girls were developing low self esteem even as I watched. Lower, I mean - I think they all had self esteem problems to start with. All but one of them were above average intelligence, and the one who wasn't might have been masking her intelligence in order to fit in with her dumb boyfriend and his dumb crowd.

I don't much care HOW someone comes by their education. For those who think I'm singing the praises of mandatory public schooling, I'm not. I homeschooled my son for two years, would do it now if he wanted me to, but he likes being on the baseball team. But however you get it, it needs to be meaningful, it needs to include learning to read and write the language of the country you are living in, and it needs to go beyond 8th grade level. It needs to include critical thinking skills, which is the major shortcoming of our public school system. It needs to give the child a framework for continuing to educate him or herself throughout their lives.

Amish schooling - even if its "good" schooling - does NOT do that.

So yes, limiting your child to an 8th grade, Amish-style education, IS doing them a terrible disservice.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 13, 2001.

Sojourner, I agree with all that you have said (no need to repeat) What troubles me is that by the time an Amish child grows up, "IF" he decides to join the church, he will have "few" choices for his life. (farming for men or for women being a wife and mother. Now both of these are wonderful and noble professions. The problem lies in not having ANY choice about it. "IF" he/she leaves, he/she is set up for failure. I can't help but wonder if this is almost deliberate. History has many examples of people who were controlled simply by denying them an education and ability to think for themselves and reason logically. Education in any form gives freedom of thought. We all have choices in how we choose to raise our children and I am so very thankful for that. I am concerned that these people make it so very costly to the individual who dares to think for him/herself. Imagine having to choose between freedom of lifestyle and EVERYONE you know and love. How brave are those who have the courage to leave despite the consequenses. I have following this thread since it began and it has been very interesting. Thank You Anne, for bring this to us. It really has been good conversation.

-- Ria in Ky (MinMin45@aol.com), August 13, 2001.

Ria- You just hit the nail on the head. The reason the Amish limit their children's education is that they believe that if the children are too educated they will become "wordly" and want more than what the Amish community can offer them. By keeping the children ignorant of what the rest of the world has to offer, they hope to discourage them from questioning the choices they are offered and becoming so dissatisfied that they would consider leaving the community. The Amish hope is that ignorance will be, literally, bliss.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 13, 2001.

And in those cases where somebody decides ignorance is NOT bliss, its still OK - they're still stuck.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 13, 2001.

Earthmama, your point is well taken, and I hope I didn't come off too strongly in my post! I occasionally see anti-college sentiments on this forum, and I was just reacting to that issue without fully "listening." I agree there are many ways to learn. Sure, college may not lead to a better job for some people, but for me it did. The educational path one takes definitely depends on the individual.

Re: the topic of this thread, the Amish--I cannot really comment on whether the Amish properly educate their children because I have never met an Amish person nor lived amongst them. We have to realize, though, that we may be judging them based on *our* sociocultural norms, which isn't entirely fair. No doubt their lifestyle, values, and norms differ greatly from some of us here.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), August 14, 2001.

I read recently that statistics show that 95% of Amish youth join the church and ofcoarse 5% leave. When I first read this I thought it was great, til I learned the cost of leaving. No wonder they stay. It is a shame that they stay out of fear. There are lot of good honest Amish people. We have a community near here and it is so easy to look at them "outside looking in" admiringly...I must say that the glimpses I have had of the inside were very disappointing.

-- Ria in Ky (MinMin45@aol.com), August 14, 2001.

Ria... you made an excellent point about the amish staying within their faith due to fear....

how many "english" stay within the church out of fear??? cuz they don't want to hurt their family members, or because they "fear" leaving for a 100 other reasons...

they are in the same bondage then as the amish, Ria... fear

-- HawkFlying (soaringhighinthesky@hotmail.com), August 14, 2001.

Vicki, You aren't implying somehow that being a SAHM with a college education is a waste, are you? A lot of people have done the math on the second job, and it often is not worth it, so (I guess it could stand for stay-at-home-Man as well, lol) one spouse will often stay home. I think you need a good grounding in the basics so that you can continue to learn on your own (if you can read, you can learn) whether you go for extra degrees or not. Degrees do not matter for all jobs-- two good friends of mine are working for a highly respected internet company, making good money, and they don't even have AA degrees from a junior college. They have the skills and that is what's important.

But back to the thread. An interesting book which has some info about living among the Amish is Plain and Simple, A Woman's Journey to the Amish by Sue Bender. She was an artist who lived among them for a while, while learning about the quilts they made. Good reading.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), August 14, 2001.

"We have to realize, though, that we may be judging them based on *our* sociocultural norms, which isn't entirely fair. No doubt their lifestyle, values, and norms differ greatly from some of us here."

Amy, that's EXACTLY the point. Their society DOES differ greatly from ours. And when it differs SO greatly that someone raised in it can't function outside of it, it becomes limiting and insular, and children raised inside of it have little or no choice but to stay. If you can't read English (not true of all the Amish but true for a significant number) and you don't know the first thing about society in the rest of the country, what else can you do but stay?

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 14, 2001.

I am sorry , as a whole in my area they are not as english "dumb" as you all beleive .In many way except for there dress you would not know them from anyone else at auction or in town .Yes the can read english and count too .And many could make the transition to english life without a problem .Most are skilled trades people on top of farming and you don't find that kind of quality in the english community.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 15, 2001.

Patty, I grew up around Amish. I live around Amish now.

I'd be interested to know just what marketable skills you think an Amish woman has. Keep in mind that if she leaves the community she loses EVERYTHING she owns. Amish women are much more restricted than the men, and have very little idea of how things really work among the English. Some Amish do learn to read English, but there are significant numbers who do not. Those who learn to read English do so with varying levels of proficiency. If Amish children were to be tested for reading comprehension I think the low functional literacy rates would shock you.

I don't object to the Amish having their own schools, but they should have to come up to the standards of every other private school in this country. And they should go through all 12 grades.

Lots of folks have different religious beliefs. Moslems are allowed to take more than one wife, but we don't allow that in our country. Hiding something like this - the purposeful withholding of education from an entire group of children - under the cloak of religious freedom is something I can't quite figure out how it was ever allowed. The Amish aren't the only religious group that holds education to be a detriment, but they somehow, nevertheless, managed to squeak by on this one, while everbody else has to toe the line.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 15, 2001.

Sojourner............I am not sure how you managed to set yourself up as the judge and jury of the Amish as a people group but I believe your desertation here has past the stage of decency.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), August 15, 2001.

I don't think any of us are being judgmental on the Amish. Those of us who disagree with the issues are just expressing them. The small group we are here won't change anything with the Amish. I just think it is interesting to hear the opinions posted. We can just talk about it, listen to the opinions posted here and go on. There are many "FACTS" that are stated here and "some" opinions.Someone posted much earlier and referenced us to a site by David Yoder. It is his story of growing up Amish. I was so hooked by this story I could hardly get anything done around here. I read with great interest til the wee hours. I was glad to be done with it, but it was excellent and I learned a lot of interesting things. I think that this is just what this forum is about, expressing opinions. Their culture is different from ours and that is interesting.

-- Ria in Ky (MinMin45@aol.com), August 15, 2001.

Vicki, You aren't implying somehow that being a SAHM with a college education is a waste, are you? A lot of people have done the math on the second job, and it often is not worth it, so (I guess it could stand for stay-at-home-Man as well, lol) one spouse will often stay home. .........................

OH GT! You have got it! A Stay At Home Mom, like me, who has chosen to live in the country to raise her own children, has made the CHOICE to do this, and if the husband bales on her, her spouse dies, with that degree she isn't going to be flipping burgers at McDonalds is she? Now the Stay At Home Mom, with an 8th grade education and 6+ children is going to be doing what in the above scenerio? Welfare! And I am glad your friends with COMPUTER KNOWLEDGE have great jobs without degrees, but how are Anne's amish children going to even learn how to turn on a computer? Remember no electicity, and no trip even to the library to learn. The math done on a second job usually includes a women with a minimum wage job (once again nor the degreed women)......women working for great pay, benefits and a good retirement package (after her kids are grown) is just plain smart.

The type of skills that an amish women would have is the same skills a housewife has, and we all know how much VALUE is placed on that! :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 15, 2001.

REASONS PEOPLE LEAVE THE AMISH

(Ok, I just wrote down the ones here that I know for a fact has happened to people I have known.)

1. Spiritual hunger. They were forbidden to know God in any deeper or other way than the way prescribed by the church authorities. Thus, as they grew spiritually, they had to leave, choosing rather to suffer the affliction of hateful treatment by their Amish relatives, than to deny the truth they knew in their spirit.

2. Material things. This actually is less attractive to most of those who were raised amish than you would think. They are actually rather settled in their way of life. Some do get desirous of the grass on the other side of the fence. Most of the time, however, those who leave the Amish for this reason, never even "join church" in the first place, to avoid the pain of being shunned. The materialistic soul is usually calculating and plans his future long term.

3. Anger over petty church disagreements. These are still unsettled spiritually, usually, and go on a long search from church to church, looking for spiritual meaning and social acceptance.

4. Deep frustration at being constantly whipped into obeying meaningless rules.

5. Personal hurt for being unjustly blamed for a wrongdoing. David Yoder falls in this category, I think. I feel so sorry for that man; he still sounds lost and hurt and unfulfilled. He is still desperately looking for approval from those who never will approve of him. He seems to still wish he could be amish, if only the amish would stop being abusive.

6. A personal rebellion against the repression and abuse of others. To know that someone is abusive of animals, children, or women, and to stand by and help that person cover his sin, goes down harder for some than for others. To be forced to stand by and not report criminals to the authorities is intolerable for those who have an individual conscience. Of course, that individual conscience is rare in the Amish community, as they are trained in group-think from the cradle.

7. Desperation for professional psychological, mental, medical, or financial support outside the amish community.

The issues of women's rights usually are not a factor at all. The consciousness of women as intellectual and value equals to men comes later, after one leaves and becomes slowly enlightened by the modern culture.

Educational opportunities are usually not an issue for those who have already joined the Amish church, as that only happens when a person is about to get married. The way the Amish social system is set up, marriage only comes to those who join church, and joining church locks you into the system. Usually, those who are truely interrested in getting a higher education, will pursue that instead of marriage. So they have not joined church, and will therefore not be shunned.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 15, 2001.

Hee hee, I just had to be the 100th post. WOW! has any other string gotten this long??

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 15, 2001.

Sojourner,

I have looked at more "school" books in all of our years of homeschooling than a lot of people can hardly even imagine. So, in the course of checking out what is out there to use for homeschooling, I have seen textbooks written and published by the Mennonites. I believe the Amish use these. They have excellent phonics courses for learning to read (which a lot of government schools don't even use - phonics I mean). I think it is possible that their "8th" grade educations are a lot better than our government school 8th grade education is.

If they do stay in the Amish community then this is what they need (and of course their "education" still continues - as it does for most of us). If they choose to leave the community then they can get the rest they need then (how have the ones that have left to become Drs. and such done it?).

-- Terry - NW Ohio (anunt_tm@hotmail.com), August 15, 2001.

Loved your post, Vicki. Would like to add something, however. Flipping burgers is honest work, and I don't believe in "menial jobs". Too many have bad attitudes towards hard work, and the welfare system only makes it worse. A lot of people with college degrees choose to work in jobs that others would think they are 'way overqualified for, for totally different reasons--flexible hours, discounts, benefits and vacation (some lower paid government jobs have much better health plans--and more rights to sue over denial of care, etc. than higher paying jobs, and last time I checked basic janitor did not require much in the way of skill sets), enjoy their coworkers, etc. Just about any union job will get you good money and benefits also and you don't necessarily have to have a degree or even a high school diploma. Another concern is ease of taking time off when you have to-- emergency leave, for example--some of the higher paying jobs just aren't worth the long hours you have to put in for them. So, minimum wage jobs aren't all bad. Also, there are still lots of jobs that pay fairly well even with no education or computer skills (although you might have to move to get the better rates, and have a few higher costs along with it): housecleaning (set your own hours to boot) child care, and the big new business, elder care, now that the baby boomers are getting older, especially for people who don't want to leave their homes and are in that area where you're not yet covered by insurance, i.e. dressing, light housekeeping and so forth. Respite care for people with Alzheimer's while the primary caregiver goes shopping or has a day out or a much-needed weekend off. We are not talking about skilled nursing here, either. Even unskilled "helpers" can make $20+ an hour. You won't get rich on it, but it is not minimum wage, and once you get your regulars and referrals, you're pretty well set. The future doesn't have to be as bleak as you paint it. As to the lack of education being a detriment, sure, there is a learning curve, but if our hypothetical Amish wife has split with her kids (I don't know how custody battles are settled among the Amish, they don't have lawyers do they?), chances are they will soon be in public school, and they will catch up, just as ESL students catch up. She too, can go to school or probably, her own children will teach her, if she desires that. You don't have to understand electricity (I don't) to learn to use a telephone, or an electric stove or a computer. I used to light the pilot light on our old gas stove, which would work electricity or not-- now I have no need to--electronic ignitions, no electric, won't work. We can all learn, whatever our age--all we need is the desire. By the way, I do know a guy who stays home with his kids--his wife's a lawyer. He too is college educated, she just makes more. And I think we all know people who, even without a lot of formal education, are still smarter than we are in different areas.

I think if Anne wants to make it work for her, she will, and her English background may help her to appreciate the Amish way of life even more than someone who was born to it. This happens a lot with converts to other religions--you pay attention to the whys of doing things instead of just doing them without thinking.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), August 15, 2001.

Sojourner, I guess that's the problem with insular communities--members just aren't equipped with the life skills necessary to function is they decide to break away from the community.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), August 15, 2001.

I pressed "return" by accident and sent my last message before I finished.... I actually think, though, we have to give people more credit than we give them for the ability to learn and adapt. If an Amish person, or anyone from a closed community, wants to leave that community, it isn't impossible to assimilate. After all, my grandparents moved to the USA from Eastern Europe, spoke another language, practiced a different religion--they assimilated. It was hard but they did it. It happens every day in our country.

Also, I'd hypothesize that those individuals that choose to leave Amish society are people that have independent personalities. Usually, persons with such an independent drive are clever enough to cope.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), August 15, 2001.

exactly Amy. Living here in southern California for the past 18 months I've seen many people who immigrated to America(legally and illegally) who barely can speak english, have no grasp of our society but somehow have managed to survive and quite a few have even become very successful. I'd say an Amish person who throws themself into the status-quo society stands a better chance than a cambodian refugee or mexican national that comes to America. Determination can overcome many obstacles. I have skills and knowledge that I attained without formal education, just about anyone is capable of doing that. I left the farm at 18 with $200 in my pocket, and a GED(which I'm sure any 8th grade Amish student could attain) I was pretty clueless about society but I made it with nobodys help, no family to lend support, etc. I grew up with electricity but no tv or much influence from average society. I hardly attended school past 8th grade and never participated when I was there. I don't see how I was much more prepared than an 18yr old Amish person who decided to enter mainstream society. I had rough times the first few years, was a homeless drifter down south for a while but eventually I made it. Motivation can make up for alot of shortcomings. For the past 7 years I've worked from home, right here on the internet with no formal education in it at all. Back in PA I saw quite a few Amish holding 'english' jobs, working in factories and construction, etc. Granted, they're not always the best jobs out there but most were making the US median income. Assimilation into the mainstreams version of society is not always a good thing, heck I try to avoid it as much as possible and it's not really required to live a decent life in America.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 15, 2001.

O.K……so I have not posted here much because of various reasons, but I can not stay out of this discussion any longer. Ria says that people were not being judgmental but I believe to label and describe a people group in such a way as some have here is most certainly judgmental in nature.

I am 57 years old and have lived among the Amish most of my life. I have been associated with people from churches in New York, Ohio, Indiana, Penn. and Michigan. We have entertained them in our home and have been entertained in theirs. We attend weddings and funerals of our neighbors and they attend ours. I “ran about” as a young teen-ager with them and served with them in the mission field of Haiti. In all that time I have found them to be very well educated and multi-skilled; both men and women.

I church with a church full of people who have left the Amish, for many different reasons. I have seen far more abuse of all kinds in the “English” community than I ever have in the Amish. I do believe that there is a problem in Holmes County Ohio. Not all the churches, but in some. The majority of the people I church with have left the churches from Holmes County. Because I strongly believe in salvation by grace, not work, I would not be a part of the Amish church.

I am so grateful for the Amish that went to jail and prison and had their children removed from their homes in order for us all to have educational liberty. Many paid a dear price for it. I find so much of what has been said here absolutely outrageous!!! They are SUCCESSFULLY living a lifestyle that so many of us aspire to; independent living on the land with small cottage industries. They have their good people and bad people like every people group does. Anne, I wish you well in your hopes of assimilation into the Amish culture. The majority of the world has no clue of the joys involved in a life of Christian submission and you are wasting your time trying to convince them.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), August 15, 2001.

Yeah, but Dave, aren't you the same guy who posted on the "facing bankruptcy" thread awhile ago and saying how tough things have been for you and your family? I agree that a formal education is not the answer for everyone. In fact, having dropped out of college I am one of the least-educated members of my own family (most of my generation have attained a minimum of a master's degree, with many Phd's as well), yet I seem to do quite well for myself, working at a job which I love and making tons of money while working only 5 or 6 months a year which gives me time for other pursuits. Still, I bet a lot of people who are struggling now would agree that having a better education would have helped them get ahead. I think the whole issue with education and the Amish is that they actively discourage their children from getting an education in order to keep them in ignorance, in the hope that they will then not want to leave the community. THAT is the problem, as I see it. I also agree that any reasonably inteligent and motivated person can continue to educate him/herself once they have left school, but I think that when a child is taught that education is bad/unnecessary/undesirable, etc. then that child will be somewhat more handicapped when it comes to self- study than the average student.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 15, 2001.

Don't we ALL want what's best for our children? And don't we ALL do things differently to acheive this? What YOU feel is best for YOUR children might be totally opposite of what I think would be best for mine. Some home-school while others send their children to private or public schools. Some children (within the same family) go on to college, some don't. Some Adults wish they had gone on to college right after high school but they decided at that time to marry and start families (probably some to their parent's dismay), so they go back to school/college as adults. Education is ALL around us and it's ours for the taking. (And it's definitely NOT always found in a classroom - BY FAR). Just because you don't have a prepaid college plan or scholarship doesn't mean you can't learn. Life itself is an ongoing educational experience and we are all exposed to different levels and degrees of "education." Some travel the world to gain knowledge. Some surf the internet. Some listen to their elders tell of by-gone eras (Now THERE'S a priceless bit of education!) Some are educated through reading. Some through hands-on/life experiences.

As far as the Amish go, the world is FULL of diversity. Look at some of the other cultures. I live in South Florida so I see MANY cultures. The folks from the middle east that live here still wear their traditional dress from their motherland. They eat foods that are forign to us. They raise their children with their own religious beliefs. They speak a different language. True, the majority send their children to the same schools as we do but ANY child here in Florida can drop out of school if he/she chooses at the age of 16. Granted, 16 is older than most Amish children who only receive an 8th grade education but who are we to say exactly what type of education these Amish children are getting? And yes it IS the desire of the Amish to keep their children Amish. Just as some of our desires may be to see our children go on to college. Don't you as a parent do all that you can to point your children in the direction that YOU feel is in their best interest?

Personally, I have had experience with home-schoolong, and both private and public education. When we could afford to send all of our children to private school, we did - and we were please with their education and progress for the most part. When finances became an issue, we chose to home-school. This presented both pros and cons for OUR family. Public school was also experiencedand again has both pro's and con's as well.

My point is this: We ALL have everchanging circumstances in our lives. We ALL are dealt a different "hand" if you will. We all make the choices we make for very different reasons. When life throws us curve balls or serves us lemons, we may sometimes have to make changes. But throughout this changing process we all learn. We try things and if we feel that they aren't working for us or it's not what we thought it would be, we change it. This is called life. I like the old saying about blooming where you grow. There's another one that someone once said to me: "If you're not happy with what you have - you'll NEVER be happy with what you think you want." And as I always say, "The grass may look greener on the other side.....but it STILL needs mowing."

To Anne I say, "Good Luck." I wish you well as you embark on yet another of life's changes in your life and the life of your family. I would LOVE to "follow" you throughout your journey to see how things turn out for all.

For the rest of us........never stop learning

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), August 15, 2001.

Yes Elizabeth that was me. Things for my family have been tough the past few years, compared to how we used to live. I hate to burden anyone with these things but since you mentioned it I will. Yes, our standard of living has downgraded quite alot and yes I'm carrying some debt now(something I never ever had until the past few years) None of it is because of a lack of formal education. I probably could have used some 'emotional dealing' education and saved myself and my kids all this mess but I have yet to find out where to sign up for that. I started working for myself in 1994 investing in the stock market. 4 years ago this month I was rolling in money(for me at least) I made a bit over 21k the month of August97. I usually averaged a decent income though since my goal was a steady income, not to strike it rich or gamble in the market. My goal was to be able to basically retire at 35 and live a self-sufficient low cost life and enjoy the freedom of that. I'm sure I would have met that goal if I did a few things differently. I had gross proceeds of over $2mil back for 98 and again in 99.(hardly kept a dime of all that liquidity) Until 1994 I had never touched a computer, never knew anything about the stock market. Taught myself everything I knew, started with very little and was fairly successful for a few years. In late 97 my wife developed bipolar disorder(manic depression) along with psychotic delusions and paranoia. As crazy as it sounds it virtually happened overnight. These things ran in her fathers side of her family but she had never shown any signs before. Things happened so quick and I had so much at stake, not to mention 2 kids barely 3 and 5 yrs old that I didn't think too clearly about what was happening. I ended up standing by her side for 2 years of a hellish nightmare. She was in and out of treatment, disappeared dozens of times for days at a time, had trouble with the police, got involved in drugs(cocaine, heroin, crack) and was promiscuous(common with manics) and if you can imagine, worse things that those. For the 6 years before this disease manifested itself in her, she was a good wife and mother. Up til then we had a very promising future, lots of money, perfect credit and a rewarding life. The change was so sudden and so many horrible things were happening at a quick pace that I kind of became overwhelmed just trying to keep it all together. Not only was my money wiped out by her and through trying to help her, I lost focus on my work and lost alot of money too. I should have taken time away from work but I foolishly thought I could handle anything that came my way. Even after one time I lost 35k in 2 days in one trade I left unattended because she had been gone for days and I got a call she was in the hospital for cocaine overdose. For short times she'd get bettter, take her medication but it never lasted long and when she went off, she went off in a major way. For whatever reason she intended to destroy everything we had and through my foolishness I basically let her. I had no family to intervene and my friends were too shocked to be of assistance. I had alot on the table, alot to lose and things happen quick. I was too focused on keeping my family together, at any cost and I wasn't realistic about that. It's now been over 2 years since we've seen her and likely never will. I'm now a fulltime single parent and yes it's been a struggle these past 2 years, not just financially but helping my kids overcome the things they experienced and dealing with those things myself. Even so, I'm doing ok, getting by and I'm certain that someday soon I'll overcome the obstacles from this experience. I never feel sorry for us because someone else out there always has it worse. Having a great education and credentials and degrees doesn't make anyone immune from problems like these. I've known a few well credentialed people who had very promising futures that threw it all away on drugs and alcohol or were victimized by others who did.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 15, 2001.

also, since I'm in a defensive mode now ; ), I want to point out as I stated in that other thread that even in this situation and carrying debt, bankruptcy will not be an option for me.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 15, 2001.

and if all else fails and I can't make it anymore in this society, I could always join the Amish.. ; )

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 15, 2001.

Anne, I just wanted to make the observation that you, who read and write English well, have chosen a technological medium, that you will likely leave behind, to discuss this decision with hundreds of folks. Doubtless, you realized there would be people who disagree with you here. Please realize, it is through YOUR education and world experience that let you find the Amish and consider their lifestyle. You have seen other ways of living as well, and can freely choose. I believe some of us here are concerned that Amish children have that freedom of choice as well.

I don't ask you to answer these questions, but please consider:

"Were you hoping someone might change your mind? Or talk you out of it? Or help you find other, less extreme options?"

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), August 15, 2001.

Dave, I'm glad to hear that you and your kids are ok. We did not see much of you for awhile and I wondered if you were offline. You sound as if you are definitely a survivor, and I appreciate the fact that you stand up and take responsibility for your family and your finances. FYI I went through a situation myself 5 years ago when my sister died and I inherited her two boys (3 1/2 and 7) for 4 years. Quit my job, stayed home with kids, spent my life savings, etc. Did manage to avoid going into debt, BIL remarried last year and kids are back with him, I'm working, and life is still good. Hope we'll hear from you before long telling us that things have improved for you. I thought I had recalled from the other thread that you were having difficulty finding work, which is why I questioned you above. Guess I "dis-remembered" your situation. I STILL think that the majority of people who are in financial straits could improve their situation through "better" employment, which is often attained through benefit of better education. Obviously, some people, including many on this forum, have CHOSEN to live a simpler lifestyle which does not require a high paying job nor a college education. But, the operative word here is CHOSEN. I would want to raise my kids and provide them with an education which is sufficient to allow them to CHOOSE whatever employment and lifestyle they might desire. I know from Anne's earlier posts to this thread that she has given this decision a great deal of consideration, and she has made up her mind and seems to be comfortable with her decision. So, largely this debate is academic. But, I am glad to read of other people's experiences and their opinions as well. Anne, I hope that you will let the forum know when you make your move. Perhaps one or more of us could continue to correspond with you via mail and keep the forum updated on your experiences. I would love to volunteer.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 15, 2001.

I agree there Elizabeth. I don't want my kids to go out in the world without a college education either. The point I was trying to make earlier was that if an Amish(man or woman) decided to enter mainstream society, they have a good chance at making it, just as many others not so well equipped have. Regardless of the costs of leaving they still have that choice.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 16, 2001.

Skills of Amish woman , lets see seamstress ,quilt makers , specialty products {us dumb english love} how about running a garden shop the list can go on and on .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 16, 2001.

dear Anne, I unfortunately know of no one who is interested in joining the Amish ....other than me. I am 16 years old and want to be Amish so bad I can taste it! i currently am working with an Amishman. I live in ohio near 2 settlements one in Olivesburg an another in Johnsville. where i work is on the farm of a blacksmith named Johnny Mast. His wife Ella is an awesome cook and one of the most Christian women that I know. Just when speaking with her she just bubbles over with the Holy spirit, and she just glows with the Lord. To me, my mom is totally against the idea of me coming Amish. She allways says you don't have to be Amish to be A Christian. But i feel I can be A better Christian if I am Amish. I do know that some amish districts have their problems (but don't we all?) but I don't know if it is just me or what, but it seems that the good strongly out weighs the bad. My cousin married an ex Amish man and I usually talk alot with him. he says that I can't join until i'm about 18-20. he said that i should go and live with a family an go to church with them for about a year or two to really know what i'm getting into. I currently have a horse and buggy. the buggy is an open buggy. the bishop says the buggies need steel rims, kerosene lamps(battery operated until i'm married), no wind shield, a very narrow dash board that dosn't even go to the frame of the buggy. the men and women all wear long sleves, the men's hats must have 3 and 1/2 inch brims(3 in. untill you join church. the district that you are planning on joining is probably not this strict because this church is a very low order. well, good luck with all that you do i hope that you do join and are truly accepted. God bless you and yours sincerely -Dylan

-- Dylan p. Barile (barredrock25@voyager.net), August 16, 2001.

yeah Patty, I saw quite a few Amish back in PA that were running very successful businesses. They were also getting top dollar for food, candy, crafts, woodworking, etc. Quite a few made a weeks income just working a day or 2 at farmers markets.

Heck I think if I was Amish and left to join mainstream society, I'd keep the clothes to wear while I ran my business for the marketing value lol.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 16, 2001.

Don't hehe Dave , some people dress like Amish to make more money off there crafts .Maybe it ain't such a bad idea ?

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 16, 2001.

Oh my goodness Patty.......do they really??? It certainly wouldn't be very ethical but wouldn't that just be a hoot??? ;>) Let's see...........my neighbor could be the driver...........

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), August 16, 2001.

yup, I'm now wondering if I should try that. With the right haircuts me and my kids could have the look and I still have remnants of the PA dutch accent. I wonder if I could pull that off here in the suburbs of Los Angeles... ;)

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 16, 2001.

See Dave we will have you rolling in the dough again!

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 16, 2001.

well I'll put some thought into it... if anyone in the L.A area sees an Amish buggy on the 405 freeway in the coming months, wave to me ; )

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 17, 2001.

Don't joke my friends became "Amish" and last I know they where traveling the states in a horse drawn covered wagon spready the lords word.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 17, 2001.

OK, patty, now since the Amish woman or girl had to leave EVERYTHING SHE OWNS behind, where is she going to come up with the capital to finance any of these enterprises? Get real. Yes, these are skills, but they are not marketable skills. Coming out of that society, into a totally different world, without the skills or even the knowledge of how to work a cash register, and you think this hypothetical Amish woman is going to go right into a profitable, self-supporting business making quilts. Doesn't have a place to live. Doesn't have a penny to her name. Not one single member of her former community will even speak to her, let alone lift a finger to help her.

Be realistic. It's no big surprise that hardly any Amish women leave unless they go with a husband, father, or brother. It's no big surprise that hardly any Amish MEN leave under such conditions. As the technological gap widens, it will only become more difficult to make the transition. It's a trap, pure and "simple".

It's one thing to live simply by choice and conviction. It's quite another to be forced to it, simply because all other choices were blocked off in childhood.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 17, 2001.

Patty, have you ever done any quilting? How about baking to sell? Or perhaps you have tried doing crafts? These are extremely labor intensive "income sources," and actually rarely provide above minimum wage for backbreaking labor. I know, because I have tried every single one of those trades mentioned. Sure, a nice return for a couple of days at flea markets, but think of the entire week of looooong days getting ready for that weekend. My family ran a Mennonite bakery, to take baked goods along with our produce to sell at the local farmers market. Our income level wasnt much above poverty level. For this, my mom worked for 48 hours straight every week on concrete, every Wed noon through Friday noon to get ready for Market. She had a nervous breakdown eventually.

Did you know that a good quilter can get a quilt done every week or two, depending on how much stitching is required, and the pay for quilting only comes to about $100 a week, if you work 8 hours a day? -and this involves bending over that frame 8 hours!

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 17, 2001.

By the way, Anne, dont set your heart too firmly on canning veggies alongside your sisters in Christ, singing hymns. Most all families' gardens get ripe at the same time, and she who cans, has to do her own work, as everyone else is busy doing theirs. Most likely, your experience will mirror what I experienced and have witnessed in almost all Mennonite families. Mom puts up the vegetables in a steaming hot kitchen, trying to get the older kids to help her, settling arguments, while balancing a crying sopping babe on her hip, trying not to step on the youngster crawling around her feet while the pressure canner of greenbeans is shooting off steam, and the tomatoes are burning. The scene is a reshoot in almost every Amish kitchen in the community at the same time.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 17, 2001.

I know people don't think much of housecleaning for a living, but if you have ever looked at how much places like Merry Maids and others charge, you will see that you can pull in a decent living for someone with little education. Even the independents charge a lot, because they know what the market will bear.

Same with gardening and other skills. Someone has to do the work, and if you can do it well, people could care less about your educational level.

If mentally and/or physically challenged people can learn job skills, so can an Amish person on his or her own.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), August 17, 2001.

I've enjoyed reading this thread very much. It's been informative to say the least.Although I haven't given serious thought to becoming Amish I often tell my Hubby we should consider it. We live an hour away from Holmes County. A trip there is like therapy for me. I appreciate their lifestyle. I always watch the children playing and working along side their parents and wonder how differant my own children might be had they grown up without the "worldly influences" overtaking their lives. As we get them ready for school to start I see the obsession with having the right style of clothes,the right name on them,The right brand of shoes,fragrance, bookbags ,& the list goes on and on.As far as education is concerned, (I'm sure many will disagree)I think that in a lot of cases school is mostly a social event for teens once they hit Jr. High. Of our 5 children three are teens (8th,9th & 10th grade) It's very difficult to keep them focused on the academics because they are clearly more concerned about the social aspects of school. I've also known several people who have left school without graduating and become very successful people. I think it sounds like you have given this a great amount of thought and prayer. I hope that it works out for you and your family. I too would love to hear from you on this forum in the future to see how you & your children have adjusted. I may have missed it but in what state do you hope to join a community? Good Luck.

-- Raya Amick (Raya2448@ivillage.com), August 18, 2001.

A person doesnt have to join a group-think community in order to live simply with a family. For instance, we got rid of our TV over a year ago, and are very happy it's gone. I sew most of our clothes, and our children are thoroughly trained in veiwing fashion with a jaundiced eye. Our children are homeschooled, so they can be trained 24 hrs a day-7 days a week in right living. The Bible is not only the basis for spiritual exercise, but also the basis for education, morals, social skills, and all of living and dying. Having lived in a repressive religious church most of my life, I feel this is the way to train kids to love God sincerely, and to stand alone on the Word. They have homeschool friends to associate with, and through this, they learn how to respect others as christians who may not believe exactly the way they do. I feel it is not good for children to raise them in a group which is as strictly controlled as the amish. It stunts their personal spiritual growth in acceptance of others who do not mirror themselves externally. It stunts their development of ability to stand alone against a negative peer group.

You would find far more acceptance within the Amish if you would simply live an amish-style life alongside them without attending their church. You could also be more of a strength to them spiritually, in leading them closer to God, as you would not be just a forced follower of their group-thinking.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 18, 2001.

Well seems some know everything again.How many english woman start with nothing and suceed ? Plenty if you have the desire and will to make something of yourself.Hubby had basically no highschool education no the less a degree .He is now a successfull electrican and almost done with his instramentational degree and A>S> degree .Yes he is a man but he suceeded because he had the desire to .I have never had to work and could be lucky enough to stay home with my children .There are plenty of people to help a woman out , it happens every day .I cannot think of a person working any harder than an ex-amish .If you want to suceed you will , when there is a will there is a way .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 18, 2001.

And thank God he can wire things better than I can spell

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 18, 2001.

I've been following this thread all along but didn't figure I had anything to contribute since I didn't know any Amish personally. But when the subject drifted to 8th grade educations, exclusion, and job skills for leaving, it gave me something to think about.

I had only an eighth grade education myself, was home schooled after that, but didn't really learn a whole lot scholastically. Never really learned algebra for example. Our family was very seclusive and we were literally afraid and very distrustful of all outsiders. Leaving or displeasing the family meant invoking curses upon oneself and being shunned, though maybe not as strictly as the Amish. I left anyway, leaving nearly everything I owned behind. It was not all that hard to adjust. I was shy of people but this became easier with time. Job skills for me were nil, unless you count raising goats and splitting wood. I had no GED and no diploma, didn't even have an ID card. Even so, work was not hard to find, I got a job herding sheep and goats, then worked as a housemaid and cook, in a chicken factory, steel factory and doing farm labor. Nobody ever asked for a diploma or proof of the GED even ater I got it. I could have gotten better jobs and education, but we were homeless by choice. What I found was that what employers are really looking for is people with a work ethic. Growing up on a homestead had goven me that , and they loved it. I found that a lot of people don't seem to have a work ethic mentality, they want to sit around and chat while the employer is paying them to work. People with a work ethic and the willingness and eterination to learn can learn just about anything if they really try. A greater obstacle to blending into the mainstream is the 'me vs them' mentality. I had this and it is more difficult to overcome but it can be done. This point of view is not unique to the Amish, it can be found in many (or most) racial, political, and religious groups. While it is true that the Amish children are beong groomed for a life on the farm, the same could be said for children being raised and trained by the public school system. They are being groomed as laborers and corprate wage slaves and good citizens. Creativity of thought is punished in public school, the goal seems to be a group of adults who all think alike and accept whatever they are told or see on TV. I think that city kids raised by the public school system would have a much harder time moving to the country and making a living off the farm than the Amish would leaving the farm and taking a job.The sword cuts both ways, the difference is in what our society values. Right now farm work is viewed as quaint but menial, dirty labor for ignorants. It all depends on one's goals and their framework of reality.

PS. The scenario of an Amish woman with children leaving is not much different from many women leaving an abusive husband. Many women stay in difficult situations because the feel trapped and there are no other choices available.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), August 21, 2001.

I can spell, truly I can, I'm just tired. :)

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), August 21, 2001.

Rebekah - Thank you so much for sharing. I think you had a lot to contribute to this thread!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), August 21, 2001.

All Amish children learn to read and write English. They also have their own publishing company, Pathway. I am sorry to say that daffodyllady seems quite ignorant of the Amish ways, and is reacting very strongly in her misguided attempt to protect me and/or my children from some perceived danger. I have seen Amish woman canning and baking together. Yes, the gardens all come into production at the same time, but they do visit back and forth, and work together when they do. Smaller communities tend to do this more than larger ones.

I should also point out that, as Christians, our first concerns are spiritual and not carnal. I am more concerned that my children get to heaven than that they have all kinds of choices in this life.

-- Anne Keckler (raymondkeckler@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

Anne I wish you luck and peace in your choosen lifestyle .As I said before I would love to keep in touch with you .I envy having the same strong beliefs with your spouse .~Patty

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 27, 2001.

I read a portion of this thread when it first appeared and didn't know that it had grown so long. I've just finished reading it in its entirety and found it to be very interesting.

If it's not too late, I just have an observation to add: I live just north of an Amish communtity in Southern Wisconsin. I haven't had much contact with any of its members, except to shop at the bulk food store, and to occasionally see them at yard sales and in their buggies on Sundays. Everyone seems friendly enough, though I haven't scrutinized any of my interactions with them.

Last weekend, I was driving home and noticed an oncoming open buggie. In it was a family of four, and what struck me as odd, was that the mother was holding an infant daughter off to her side, close to the oncoming traffic. The baby close to traffic is what immediately caught my attention (and made my heart flutter)...then I remembered reading the post about the buggie seating positions: son nearest the shoulder, then father, then mother, then daughter. That's exactly how they were sitting! I had never noticed before. The mother wasn't holding the daughter in her lap, either. The baby was perched off to the side of her leg, at the very edge of the buggy. As a mother, I'd want that baby safely tucked between hubby and I! It seems to me that having rules that would put one's child in jeopardy, would pull at a mother's heart strings...

Anyway, just an observation.

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), August 31, 2001.

I'm with you on that one Sharon. Safety of my children ALWAYS comes before myself. I have read just about everything that I could get my hands on about the Amish. Hubby asked me one day if I could go anywhere in the world where would I want to go. I said to an Amish settlement to see them/their lifestyle (in action) firsthand. He thinks I'm crazy and I often get teased about my interest in the Amish.

Something that popped nto my head when I read you post (Sharon) was this : Where would we be had God chosen the safety/security of His son over us? (Not related in comparrison in any way to the seating arrangements of the Amish in the buggy. The thought just popped in to my head as I read this post and thought there must be a reason so I would share it.)

I thought a one point in my life that I was born in the wrong era due to my lifestyle interests. But then I started looking at it this way: THIS is where God placed me. THIS is my home, MY lifestyle, My beliefs. There MUST be a reason why I am HERE and not THERE. So I choose to Bloom/Grow where I am planted. Not to say that at some point in my life I won't be "transplanted" someplace else, but for the here and now, this is it and I will choose to be happy and thankful for all of God's blessings. :o)

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), September 02, 2001.

Well, the Amish grocery store I shop at isn't anymore.

Amish, that is.

The folks who owned it have left the Amish, along with two other families.

The reason? "Too many man-made rules and not enough attention to the laws of God". Direct quote. The community is not primarily religious. Many Amish communities are not (primarily religious).

Many Amish children DO learn to read English. However, not all do. The stricter sects are more likely to be providing substandard education. I suspect the german-only education may be becoming less common (it was not at all uncommon thirty years ago) but its not gone yet either. Most of the Amish I know do know how to read English, but its not a given.

There will always be a few hardy souls who strike out on their own and manage to make it. I did. But my brothers and sisters did not. I came from an abusive home, and all of my brothers and sisters have suffered for it, some are chronically unemployed, and some have passed the "gift" along to their own children. Several have had problems with drugs and alcohol. The fact that some people manage to survive is not an excuse for refusing to alleviate the conditions that cause the hardship to start with.

I'm not a proponent of public schools, as has been noted they tend to "prepare" students for a particular lifestyle, one that I don't support or I wouldn't be living this way. But I'm a BIG proponent of education. The limiting of education to an at best (if they're lucky and in a more "advanced" community) eighth grade level by any group in this country is unconscionable. Moslems would not be permitted to do this; why should the Amish? Sauce for the goose. Either its "one nation" or it isn't.

I spoke at great length with some of the older girls in this formerly Amish family. I haven't yet spoken much with their parents. But I have noted that the parents are much happier, smile more often, and are speaking more freely with their non-Amish customers, now that they are no longer subject to the rules and scrutiny of their former Amish community.

And yes, all three families are being shunned. There are no longer any Amish shopping at that store, and all the Amish business cards have been removed from the bulletin board (at the hands of the Amish business people, not by the store owners).

Oh yeah, remember that obnoxious teenage boy I told you about? Well he was the son of these people. While still Amish he was insufferable. However, now that they are out on their own (the families started their own church, and have hired their own teacher, these people value education as well as their religion) he has totally changed. He is cheerful, helpful, and polite. He no longer feels repressed and controlled, and so doesn't feel the need to behave in a repressive and controlling manner to those lower on the totem pole than he is.

There are many things I admire about the Amish. But on the issue of education and the repressive nature of the group-think, shunning, treatment of women, in those things I find nothing to admire. I find major fault with "modern society" as well.

The point is, as far as I'm concerned, to choose our lifestyle, and to choose wisely. I choose to seek a simpler lifestyle, but not to try to enforce it on my offspring by denying them access to the greater (in size) world.

I chose not to join a commune precisely because of the nature of "group think" without which most of them seem unable to exist. The Amish rely heavily on this sort of group-think, as called out in the Ordnung. No human society is ever perfect. The Amish are no exception. Doesn't make them evil as a group.

I just got two books by an Amish writer, David Kline. One is called "Scratching the Woodchuck" and the other is called "Great Possessions - an Amish Farmer's Journal". I strongly recommend reading these books. This author very well expresses what I find to be most admirable about Amish society - their sustainable farming practices.

This is one area I can wholeheartedly and without reservation try to emulate. Well, with the understanding that even here, all Amish are not the same - some of them are in fact using chemicals and tractors and "modern" farming practices. BUT I can still admire the ones who are not, and try to learn from them, without having to "join" up.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 02, 2001.

Wow. Hot topic. Since regulation of births was mentioned, I thought I'd put in a word for NFP, Natural Family Planning. We are Catholic and know dozens of couples who use this method to reduce the chances of becoming pregnant, while still being open to Providence, as well as increasing the chances of conception when you are trying for it.

It is more than "Catholic birth control," though. It is based on the idea that marriage is a Sacrament, a way of living God's call to holiness and communion in Christ. Unlike other methods of "birth control" which degrade human beings, NFP has been a path to increasing intimacy and abundant family life for those who practice it. If you'd like more information, go to www.CUF.org or e-mail me.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), September 05, 2001.

Yeeees. You know what they call people who practice "natural" birth control?

Parents.

You would be amazed at the number of Catholic men who get unreported (to the diocese or local priest) vasectomies. And the number of Catholic women who have their tubes tied has been increasing as the severity of the surgery (and hence their downtime and chances of getting "caught") decreases. And then there are large numbers of American Catholics who just plain use birth control pills. This goes a long way towards explaining why my stepmother had 13 children but none of her kids had more than 3 or 4 (and none of THEIR kids has had more than a couple).

Before anybody calls me the "Anti-Catholic", hey, my family IS Catholic.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 06, 2001.

Sojouner -

What's your point?

Many who call themselves Catholic do not follow the teachings of the Church. That's not new, nor does it surprise me. However, most of those who do not follow the Church's teaching do not know it very well, in my experience. They are as lax about their religion as most of those who call themselves Protestant or Evangelical or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or anything else. But since Men (yes, I use the masculine in the absence of a neutral-gender form in English, and no, that does not degrade women) have freewill, this poor knowledge and adherence does not discredit those teachings, necessarily. It IS scandalous, however.

While your quip about NFP practitioners being called parents is clever, and may be to some extent accurate (NFP is not 100% "effective" at preventing pregnancy), it certainly does not tell the whole story. NFP assumes marriage, and marriage, in the teaching of the Church, REQUIRES openness to life as a result of copulation.

Have these Catholics you know read Humanae Vitae? Vatican II? Familiaris Consortio? Have they studied NFP and received advice from others, such as those in the Couple To Couple League?

This thread began with a question about experiences with Amish, but it has become much more. One of the main points I'd like to make is that it is easy to have an opinion on something you know little about. Much harder to put in hours studying it, trying to see it honestly from the point of view of the person or persons expounding it. A belief system cannot be known or appreciated, accepted or rejected without some effort in knowing it.

All the stories here about Amish say something, but only a fraction. There are probably several good books about who they are and where they came from culturally and philosophically, and what they believe. My suggestion to Anne is to read up on it. Try Plough Publishing.

My sense is that Anne has met some wonderful people and she likes both their lifestyle and them personally. Both are important considerations. She should no more join a group of degenerate Amish than you or I should find a Catholic bunch who just happen to belong to THE MAFIA. Likewise, we should no more take the degenerate behavior or beliefs of such a group to represent the original teachings.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), October 04, 2001.

Oh Bob, since you are unaware of gender-neutral terms in English, may I offer one you may not have considered: people.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), October 04, 2001.

Earthmamma, I said "in the absence of a gender-neutral *FORM*" of personal pronouns. There are none yet generally accepted in English. "People" is a noun, not a personal pronoun.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), October 11, 2001.

OOps. Sorry. Was hasty and distracted. Often have to deal with the question of personal pronouns. Earthmamma's right, "people" works there. You just have to speak in the plural. However, philosophers traditionally use the singular to speak of "Man" in the abstract, or "Mankind" to refer to the totality of the race. "Men and Women" or "Men, Women, and Children" are just longer, or "Human Persons" works too. Just no SINGLE WORD as a direct substitute, is there? I am not defending a sexist view (one that sees men as higher than women), just explaining that I use the term in the traditional sense of the discipline, and that I don't see it as sexist, just as a limit of English construct. I know many women who understand that and are not offended, but this is a public forum and many don't know the history of that usage, so I thought I was explaining it. Maybe needs more explanation.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), October 11, 2001.

I do not believe Christians should vote and I have not voted since being born again.

Voting is an exercise of governmental authority by a citizen. A "citizen", according to the original Greek definition of the word, is part of the government. The question then is, should a Christian ever exercise governmental authority?

It is worth noting that several notable biblical figures, held high positions of government. Joseph was the Prime Minister of Egypt; Daniel had a similar position in Babylon, and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (the ones who were miraculously preseved in the fire), were lower ranking government officials in Babylon. All of these men are heroes of the faith. Furthermore, in the New Testament, soldiers and tax collectors who asked what they should do, were not told to quit their posts, but to exercise them honestly (don't extort money, don't overcharge on taxes, etc.) Jesus highly praised the faith of a Roman centurion and made no demand that he resign his commission. Certainly, then, there is no sin to hold government authority, or to exercise it righteously.

Indeed, when Christians say we should avoid politics because it's evil and worldly, I say, How'd it GET so evil and worldly? We left it in the hands of the wicked! It's precisely because we stepped out of politics a couple of generations ago, that it's gotten so bad.

Therefore, I conclude that it is right for Christians to vote.

-- Paul (rytwyng@hotmail.com), January 07, 2002.