Bush Weighs Residency for Mexicansgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Unk's Wild Wild West : One Thread |
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010716/pl/bush_immigrants.htmlMonday July 16 5:09 PM ET
Bush Weighs Residency for Mexicans
By SCOTT LINDLAW, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - A plan that could grant legal status to up to 3 million Mexicans living illegally in the United States is being weighed by the Bush administration in one of the largest amnesty programs ever considered.
Many details remain to be worked out and no decision is imminent, Bush's spokesman said.
Despite potential problems, press secretary Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said Monday that Bush was committed to working with the Mexican government to ease ``what has been a disorderly process'' along the 2,000-mile border.
The administration's review touched off a lively political debate.
Mexican President Vicente Fox (news - web sites), who has urged Bush to consider legalization steps, welcomed the development. Speaking Monday to the Economic Club of Chicago, Fox said he is committed to ``as many rights as possible for as many Mexican immigrants as possible as soon as possible.''
A task force of top Justice and State Department officials prepared a report for the White House outlining options for overhauling U.S. immigration policies toward Mexico.
A broad grant of amnesty for illegal Mexicans already living in this country was among the options cited by the task force, but the report did not include specific recommendations or spell out a timetable, administration aides said.
Fleischer said that ``regularization of undocumented Mexicans in the United States'' was being weighed.
Border safety issues will be considered in any immigration overhaul he said. He also suggested that a new program for guest workers - those who are working only temporarily in the United States - was being crafted.
Congressional conservatives have opposed anything beyond allowing Mexicans to stay as temporary laborers. The consideration of even limited amnesty is a divisive political issue, particularly in border states and among Republicans in Congress.
Granting legal residency to all Mexican immigrants now living in the United States is ``very bad policy,'' said Sen. Phil Gramm (news - bio - voting record), a Republican from Bush's home state of Texas. ``It rewards lawlessness.''
Gramm said the proposal would be a bad example for 7 million Mexican immigrants who have legally applied to enter the country and are waiting for their paperwork to be approved. ``Should we reward people who broke the law? No,'' Gramm said in Houston.
Bush has actively courted the Hispanic vote, which could be an important voting bloc for the 2004 presidential election. But in the past he has stopped short of endorsing blanket amnesty.
``He thinks it is very important that we work with our Mexican friends to say that the United States is a nation that has welcomed immigrants,'' Fleischer said.
On the Democratic side, House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt of Missouri praised the administration's review and added, ``I hope and expect the Bush administration will seize this opportunity and not give in to the anti-immigrant forces in the Republican Party, who for too long have impeded progress on this issue,'' Gephardt said in a statement.
At the annual conference of the National Council of La Raza on Monday in Milwaukee, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle said there is strong support among Democrats for legalization, but he wants to go further than Bush's potential plan.
``I am troubled by this distinction that has been drawn between Mexicans and everybody else,'' Daschle said, noting that he wants legalization to be extended to Hondurans, Guatemalans, Salvadorans and other Hispanics.
In Washington, Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., told reporters that the administration needs to work with Congress on immigration issues. ``I think that just a mass amnesty is probably not the way to do it. I don't believe that's what the administration is thinking about,'' Lott said.
``But what they are thinking about is trying to work with the new reform president of Mexico, Vicente Fox, and come up with a reasonable way to have movement back and forth across our border, like we do with Canada.''
Major questions remain about administering any program of relaxed immigration policies.
They include how quickly immigrants could earn legal status and whether they would gain it based on date of entry into the United States or by their occupations. Any program proposed by Bush would require approval by Congress.
Some Democrats have also expressed reservations, suggesting that guest-worker and amnesty programs could drive down wages and reduce the number of jobs available.
-- (in@the.news), July 17, 2001
WHO'S GONNA PICK THE FRUIT & VEGGIE'S????? WHO GONNA DO MANUEL-LABOR???? IS THIS THE END OF BORDER PATROL?? WHERE'S JESSE VENTURA,WHEN YA NEED HIM?? OH, I GET IT-WE WILL BECOME A CATHOLIC-NATION!!
-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), July 17, 2001.
A PARDON for THREE MILLION CRIMINALS. Now that is interesting.Is there anybody left who does not get it yet? Who is still under some spell and thinks this Shrub dud even close to American?
Even J or Maria cannot justify this crap, can they?
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
"Who is still under some spell and thinks this Shrub dud even close to American?"I am! I'm still waiting for my $300 tax refund. That's enough to buy a year's worth of chewin tobaccy! Well worth the price of selling our country to fascist pigs.
-- dumbass redneck conservative (i voted for dumbya @ my. kinda guy), July 17, 2001.
You are racist pigs.
-- (LaRaza@la.plaza), July 17, 2001.
NO the proposed Scheme is RACIST. It targets MEXICANS ONLY.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
On the Democratic side, House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt of Missouri praised the administration's review and added, ``I hope and expect the Bush administration will seize this opportunity and not give in to the anti-immigrant forces in the Republican Party, who for too long have impeded progress on this issue,'' Gephardt said in a statement.At the annual conference of the National Council of La Raza on Monday in Milwaukee, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle said there is strong support among Democrats for legalization, but he wants to go further than Bush's potential plan.
Dems are scared shitless that Repubs will co-opt their demagogery among "Hispanics". Bwahahaha.
-- (Vincente Fox@revanchismo.gotcha), July 17, 2001.
This IS NOT about Immigration. It is about INVASION. It is about millions of folks who DO NOT CARE about assimilating. It is about a President and Scum in Congress who owe allegiance to the NWO and could give a hoot bout no USofA.It is about silly turds chasing non-existent votes while slapping the faces of ALL AMERICANS and the millions of Americans who have fought and died to defend this great nation.
I am sick of paying for their babies. I am sick of paying for their filth. I am sick of paying for their auto insurance. I am sick of paying to have things in Spanish. I am sick of having this issue mixed with legitimate Immigration, it is NOT.
Time for Bush, Gepfart, Dash-ill and others like them to take a walk.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
In other news,Bush and the other pigs are now proposing Americans foot the poverty bill for the entire world. He is asking us now to just GIVE our wealth away now(grants) and give-up even loan agreements. He apparently is under some delusion he speaks for us, how ever did he come to this conclusion? Oh ya, all the dolts who voted for him.
You Americans ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Asking starving Africans to repay "humanitarian" AID. Course this forced confiscation to help starving kids usually looks like free money for an Enron to set-up Cali East, but never you mind you guilty uncaring Americans.
Nevermind this is the same pResident who thinks Global Warming so much hotair. Guy who thinks it swell we drill for oil any old place his buddies figure a drop exists.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
Very thought provoking indeed! As a long time resident of Southern California I have seen the illegal Mexican immigrant influx from the epicenter. There are many other nationalities flooding into this area as well but the big numbers are put up by the Mexican Nationals. There are three basic truths that must be tabled to properly address this issue:(1). To date, our government has been unable to stem the human flow from south of the border.
(2). To date, our government has been unwilling to enforce the laws of the land and deport those who are in this country illegally.
(3). The Hispanic political base has grown into a major force that seems to always get the ear of vote grubbing politicians from all party affiliations.
Given these facts it might be the best course of action to legalize these folks and have some semblance of control over their activities…..like the rest of us.
As has been mentioned by others, we need to extend this program to include all nationalities. Can you imagine how the hard working immigrants from Korea (and other countries) must feel, given the hoops they jump through to come and live in the U.S.? I’d like to gnash my teeth but who can afford the dental bills? Unless you are on public assistance.
BTW Jesus, the reform candidates like Perot who would actually ‘do something’ have failed miserably at the polls. I’m waiting for Reverend’s Jackson and Sharpton to weigh-in on this………certainly not in the best interest of the African American community.
-- So (cr@t.es), July 17, 2001.
As has been mentioned by others, we need to extend this program to include all nationalitiesNo we need to ENFORCE the LAWS of this NATION which the "other" folks have to live by. If we do not we have NO America. Where is Bush upholding the Law, his sworn duty and oath? Does pandering to some Mexican President exempt his obligation to this country? To the citizens he supposedly represents? Who exactly does Bush represent? Can't be Americans now can it.
This ain't no Program. It is a treasonist scheme by very anti- American and anti-Freedom forces. It is a Press Release boner, an exposure of a mentality infecting our government and apparently even supposed Conservatives like you sir. Barry Goldwater is rolling over in his grave.
You want to help Mexicans? DEMAND they get serious. DEMAND they follow the LAWS. DEMAND they grow-up. DEMAND they follow the rules of THIS Society. If you don't, you will be inviting Tijuana into your own backyard.
You accomplish none of this by starting with a grand pardon. A Pardon which condones at the outset, Criminal Behavior.
We have a HUGE problem here. It is time to DEMAND these invaders get with the program or LEAVE. Every study done indicates these INVADERS have little interest in playing OUR game. They do not, and care not about assimilating.
Not to worry though, the Liberal Media like Rush Dumbo, CocksNews, and others will bury this Bush blunder pronto with more Levy noise.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
I think Socrates is near the bull's eye in terms of the politics at work here. The motivation behind this is to capture a strong and loyal minority group for the Republican party, similar to the bond between the Democrats and African-Americans.The Republicans, through Pete Wilson, made a major blunder in 1990 in California when they lined up behind several punitive initiatives aimed at Spanish-speaking immigrants, including legal ones who could vote. In 1994, the "Contract with America" congress passed some more "reforms" that punished legal immigrants who could vote. By contrast, George and Jeb Bush won in Texas and Florida partly by wooing Spanish-speaking voters vigorously.
Obviously, a light has gone off in some Republican heads. California, Texas, Florida - hey mama! That's a LOT of electoral votes! This "reform" is designed for one purpose only - securing Bush's reelection in 2004.
Incidentally, those recent Mexican immigrants would let Bush's oil buddies drill in the ANWR and funnel a trillion dollars into defense industries to build the missile defense system without blinking twice. That makes them a perfect constiuency to capture as far as the Republicans are concerned. They will be quite content if you toss them a few bones - preferably symbolic ones that don't cost much.
-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), July 17, 2001.
Dumbya hopes to make this look like an act of compassion. Isn't that special. Trouble is that asshole doesn't do anything without self-serving motives.He would likely get a lot more votes from Mexicans in 2004, especially from the 3 million he let off the hook.
Dumbya caters to big business, and big business would love nothing more than to see millions of Mexicans flood the labor market. Then they could legally employ them for minimum wage, driving the average wage down, destroying labor unions, and putting more Americans out of work.
-- (Dumbya loves @ slave. labor), July 17, 2001.
Bush on the same day he fell into the Mexican sinkhole told many Cuban-Americans to go to hell. How does that fit into your political theory? it doesn't so go back to the drawing board and come-up with at least a plausible justification for Pardoning 3 million criminals.Here is the thing, to a dumbfuck like GW, he may actually think this all about "getting votes". Unfortunately this is not what this is about. This proposal is yet another nail in ending America AS WE KNOW IT AND MAKING THE PLANET INTO ONE BIG FAT GLOBAL COMMUNITY.
Did Clinton, with the ear of the Hispanic community ALREADY, propose granting pardons to 3 million illegal mexicans?
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
"Bush on the same day he fell into the Mexican sinkhole told many Cuban-Americans to go to hell."Gee. I must have missed that one. Is that an exact quote or are you paraphrasing?
-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), July 17, 2001.
Bu sh Suspends Law on Cuba Lawsuits
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
All right! A straight trade off! Stiff the cuban exiles to protect the multinational corporations. Has Jeb Bush tut-tutted about this yet?
-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), July 17, 2001.
I think it is time to draw-up articles of Impeachment and get this anti-American Bush Oligarchy out of our White House.Course that will never happen as long as decent Americans think Bushie on their side.
Far more important we move to impeach a President over a BJ than something as mundane as an illegal Pardoning of 3 million criminals. Or allowing some profiteers and polluters access to publiclands for peanuts. Or extracting BILLIONS from already over taxed Americans to restart the Cold War with some failed starwars scheme. Or telling 30 million Californians he cannot do for them what he ends up doing for the North Koreans.
BOYCOTT the RNC and their 24 hour Levy Noise. ASK Rush if he thinks Dubya living up to his sowrn oath to defend America from enemies foreign and domestic(avoid bringing any mirrors when you ask).
Ask Cocksnews when they plan on covering Dubya's insistance now the American people just GIVE-GRANT the "starving" your money without any guarantee it will ever be paid back. Assumption is Americans are coldhearted bastards. These freaks spit in your faces and still you stick up for them, too funny. Like this IMF handout ever finds its way to some sarving African?
Bush blew it BIG TIME. Do not allow this to die people. Do not allow them to distract you away with cadaver searches. Do not allow the Talkingheads a chance to justify this Bush baloney. It is RIDICULOUS and Bush MUST come-out publically against it or I say out the dude must go.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
DO NOT allow the scum to steer this Pardoning ruse into some Immigration Issue, it is NOT. What it is, is condoning an INVASION.This is NOT some Pat Buchanan racist issue. It is the complete opposite. It is about honoring what it is to be American. It is honoring 225 years of upholding PRINCIPLE.
If a Mexican(or anybody else) wants to legitimately become an American, fucking WELCOME BROTHER. Otherwise, get lost.
If our system is slow to accomodate large numbers of folks who want to be Americans, freaking IMPROVE the system. Just saying fuck-it, is no answer and spits in the face of all Americans.
Nice job of restoring decency to the Whitehouse you freaking twit!
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 17, 2001.
Jususss, you fucking Nativist, isolationist, reactionary pig. This is the 21st century. We live in a world economy. Terminate all borders.
-- (Vincente, comin' @cha.gringo trash), July 17, 2001.
White House Retreats From Amnesty IdeaGee, that lasted a long time. The idea must have been Bush's and he decided it was a good one so they let it slip out publicly before his controllers had a chance to stop him. How many things have been proposed by the administration just to be recanted the next day? Getting more of them every day.
-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), July 17, 2001.
Get used to it Cherri, it is his style to employ these ‘sounding boards’ for an immediate public reaction without pimping them through the media. Not new for GWB. He likes to control the output lest it get too convoluted by third party reporting. Personally, I find it refreshing and very efficient……no protracted time lapses while the public slowly digests the ‘idea’.It is a measure of his confidence as a leader that he is willing to shoulder the heat, should the concept turn into fertilizer.
-- So (cr@t.es), July 17, 2001.
I have mixed opinions on this [yeah...I know it was retracted before I even spoke.] My first opinion is that my grandfathers waited for the legal process to grant their immigration. Once that legal process was complete and they'd found jobs and housing, they were in a position to send for their wives and children. That took a while, and the naturalization process of my grandfathers included their wives and children, who arrived later.So...MY mom and dad came into the country naturalized citizens under their fathers. I doubt that anyone in labor [or even the other folks in America] was happy about this process.
The labor issue is hard to qualify. The Workers of America believe that another amnesty will hurt them. The AFL/CIO feels that amnesty is necessary because they tend to get their newest members from legal immigrants. I can kindof vouch for that, as the AFL/CIO threatened to kill my dad if he didn't join.
Three million illegal immigrants were granted amnesty in 1986. I don't think the concentration was on Mexican immigrants as it is today, but the numbers were the same.
So...in short...I think amnesty is a slap in the face to the folks who spend years on waiting lists, etc., but it's not unique to the W administration to offer such a thing.
-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), July 17, 2001.
Well said Anita. The difference is that your grandfathers immigrated to a soverign nation. I suspect they felt a sense of well deserved pride. Tougher for today's immigrants to feel that when their first act is to break the laws of their (?) new country.
-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), July 17, 2001.
Retracted? Try toned down for now? They have NOT reversed squat. Here is the latest.........White House Retreats From Amnesty IdeaShort of scraping the whole trainwreck, all they have done is dodged the initial bullet shot by the few remaining Americans who are still functioning. They did the exact same two-step with the Faithbased BS and it just sailed thru the House today. So much for retractions.
If Socrates thinks this Leadership, he would love Magic.
You have not seen the last of this guaranteed. Bushie will again visit this in a bold way in September. Until then his armtwisters and Media hacks will attempt to brainwash Americans further and you will see some sort of ILLEGAL PARDONING. A Pardon the likes of which will make Clinton's passes look like playskol by comparison. THREE MILLION CRIMINALS given a freepass. A story apparently not as important as a missing intern, does it get anymore ridiculous people?
BTW, the Democratic Party has been handed an issue which would bury the Republicans for many a decade and they are too stupid, too NWO themselves to do anything but jerk-off and join the Shrub.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 18, 2001.
How do you tell which illegal aliens are the pardoned ones?
-- helen (sgh@lkj.op), July 18, 2001.
Doc, you're such a nutcase! Why don't you sign with your name?
-- You (cann@ot.hide), July 18, 2001.
Why don't you Maria?
-- (you@re.a.moron), July 18, 2001.
"THREE MILLION CRIMINALS given a freepass."This sounds really heinous, until you define their crime: they crossed a border without permission. For the most part, they go about their lives no more criminally than you do. They hold down jobs, pay rent, buy food and clothing and pay sales taxes. They just live here.
-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), July 18, 2001.
IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACTQuestion is, who or what makes you LN, think these interlopers "not so bad"?
I would also take a guess and say you think we should have mercy on poor people just wanting a better life. Which is UNarguable pr-babble used by the very scum pushing this Invasion. Fact is, NOBODY wins with the current situation, Americans or Illegals.....see if you can get that fact.
Are we a Nation of Laws, or aren't we? Is Freedom worth defending or isn't it? Are we to demand REAL FREEDOM for ALL who seek it or not?
DIG my friend, you have alot of bs floating around in your noodle on this one. Understandable, most do.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 18, 2001.
California, NM, Arizona, Tejas. Eeeze our country. We take back. Adios, gringos.
-- (Vincente@RioGrande.coyotes), July 18, 2001.
Jesus, my point was that you are engaging in superheated rhetoric (invasion! criminals!) that is not reflected by reality.Pointing this out has no bearing on my opinion about the policy's wisdom or lack of it. If insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, then our current immigration policy is insane (as is our current drug policy - but that is another tale).
Merely acquiesing to the situation without changing the core aims of immigration policy or its methods is only slightly less insane than doing nothing. First we need to acknowledge that our border is porous and we cannot stop illegal immigration through border controls alone. Then we need to decide what other management tools we have and apply them.
Amnesty does nothing to manage the problem at all. It merely ratifies our failure without changing the reasons for it.
-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), July 18, 2001.
How will a legal distinction be made between the 3 million pardoned illegal aliens and the other 3 million who follow shortly thereafter? How will the government know which is which?
-- helen (how@what.when.why), July 18, 2001.
Don't think about Helen. The machine is flashing "Game Over".
-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), July 19, 2001.
I’d like to examine your words here Nipper:“This sounds really heinous, until you define their crime: they crossed a border without permission. For the most part, they go about their lives no more criminally than you do. They hold down jobs, pay rent, buy food and clothing and pay sales taxes. They just live here.”
Entering ANY country ILLEGALLY is a most serious crime. Outside of what we consider to be ‘civilized’ nations, this act will get you dead….quick! In Australia, it will get you thrown into detention centers until your true immigration status can be determined, a process known to take years. You don’t hear any rumblings about ‘human rights’ violations from down under, do you? Same story throughout Europe as most countries such as Germany, England, and France are actively dealing with illegal immigration.
Nipper, I often find myself wondering where on earth (actually, where in this country) you live. It is none of my business but you must reside in some remote corner of Iowa, or perhaps in one of Mr. Beach’s underground condo’s, to make such ludicrous statements.
“They just live here” Not in my area Nip.
Listen to the words of ‘Vincente’ above. He knows of what he speaks.
-- So (cr@t.es), July 19, 2001.
"It is none of my business but you must reside in some remote corner of Iowa, or perhaps in one of Mr. Beach?s underground condo?s, to make such ludicrous statements."Soc,
To paraphrase Apocalypse Now, I love the smell of ad hominem in the morning. It smells like... victory.
You argue that crossing a border is a heinous crime and to say otherwise is "ludicrous". I say that labelling illegal immigration as "heinous" is another example of grossly inflamed rhetoric. Let's start with a definition:
hei-nous adj. Grossly wicked or reprehensible; abominable; odious; vile.
In support of this contention you said: "Outside of what we consider to be 'civilized' nations, this act will get you dead?.quick!"
You are right. But we consider governments in such countries as uncivilized precisely because their use of deadly force, torture, terror and coercion is quite often heinous. By this same standard you could define public criticism of those governments as a heinous crime, too.
In further support of your contention you said: "...most countries such as Germany, England, and France are actively dealing with illegal immigration."
Uh. Yes. They are also "actively dealing" with overcharging by taxi drivers. This seems a fairly weak reason for characterizing illegal immigration as a "heinous" crime, or to characterize my opinion to the contrary as "ludicrous".
I have no problem saying that illegal immigration is against the law. I would also say that, on the whole, it is a good law and worth enforcing. I don't even think that this proposed amnesty is a good policy. But your rhetoric is going FAR beyond that.
I never would have believed it of you, Socrates, but you are coming perilously close to arguing that whatever is defined as illegal is morally reprehensible. That is a rather Tory position for an American to take, don't you think?
"They just live here" Not in my area Nip.
So, what are they doing?
-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), July 19, 2001.
They did the exact same two-step with the Faithbased BS and it just sailed thru the House today. So much for retractions.Um...everything *I*'ve read shows that the House vote on the Faith- based initiatives was deferred until today with numerous amendments. Might you provide a link that demonstrates that this thing sailed through the house yesterday?
-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), July 19, 2001.
Hold on there Nipper old bud. YOU are the only one to use the word ‘heinous’ on this thread. Deal with it, or not.To answer your question: “So, what are they doing?”
Well, here’s a short list:
(1). Lowering our standards for public school education
(2). Infesting society with violent gang activity. The authorities in Orange County alone have identified over 375 separate gangs.
(3). Having more children than they can possibly support without crippling the public assistance programs.
(4). Responsible for elevating our crime rates.
That’s all for today.
-- So (cr@t.es), July 19, 2001.
Socrates, I am going to set aside the question of whether or not your assertions are true. Instead, let's conduct a thought experiment. Let's pretend that every illegal immigrant in your area had to go back home for a day or two and then was allowed to return to your area as a legal immigrant.Would that improve anything?
-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), July 19, 2001.
Thursday vote expected on faith-based billThird word first paragraph===Unexpected. Sorr I may have jumped the gun, shoot me.
Point is, not 3 months ago most I think, figured this FaithBased BS dead. Apparently the only DEAD was in inviting the public. Bushie and company have not wavered for squat on this one. A major piece of Legislation directly attacking a CORE VALUE(Seperation of Church and State) of our country and it is even being voted on by the House and EXPECTED to pass? WHY is this piece of unlawful garbage even ON the floor of the House is the question.
Look at the pr process used by the Bush Administration. Look at the many proposals presented which polls show the vasy majority of Americans reject. Bush could careless what WE want, he does not answer to US. Any flack is sidestepped by simply not telling US. The press is bought and paid for so what is the danger?
The overwhelming majority of Americans REJECT granting Illegal ANYBODYS Amnesty. Think GW gives a crap?
Anyhow lets now let Nipper spew the Lefty side of this NWO SlaveTrade issue, shall we? continue.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 19, 2001.
"How will a legal distinction be made between the 3 million pardoned illegal aliens and the other 3 million who follow shortly thereafter? How will the government know which is which?"They won't, that's the whole point. Once Dumbya makes them legal, more will come pouring up from Mexico in stampedes. If the government tries to tell the new ones they are illegal, they will sue for discrimination and be granted citizenship. That's all part of the plan. Within the next few years, Fox and Bush will agree to make Mexico part of the U.S. and Bush will get all that oil he wants down there. Not to mention that it will drive the average blue collar wage from $12 an hour down to $6, which will make his corporate buddies very happy.
Welcome to the New World Order. Daddy Bush couldn't quite finish the job, so Dumbya will.
-- (Texas will change it's name @ to. Texaco), July 19, 2001.
Texas, sounds like a great plan! Give me Cozumel any day!
-- Luv (that@sand.and.beach), July 19, 2001.
Done Deal Houses passes FaithBased Scheme
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 19, 2001.
How do Americnas feel about the immigration issue, overpopulation? about issues which manifest themselves as "freeways are jammed 24/7 now"--"Oh ya there are plenty of Jobs if you want to work at Wendys"-- "Gawd are my taxes sky high"--"I know what you mean Ken, to send Jr. to the local College even requires I get a second mortgage"--"My auto insurance rates? don't go there Janet"--"etc etc etc".Americans are pissed off and most do not even understand much of the mess has to do with a planned INVASION.
Americans Have Spoken: No Further Population Growth
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 19, 2001.
“Let's pretend that every illegal immigrant in your area had to go back home for a day or two and then was allowed to return to your area as a legal immigrant.”Pretend my ass! Once here, they manage to get pedigreed enough where they DO go home for short visits and return…….still illegally.
Nipper, where the hell do you live? Ignorance is bliss.
-- So (cr@t.es), July 19, 2001.
Socrates: "Pretend my ass! Once here, they manage to get pedigreed enough where they DO go home for short visits and return…….still illegally."I have no idea what kind of pedigree you are talking about, but you do admit that when they return they are still illegal. So,essentially, you refused to answer my question, without acknowledging that is what you were doing.
Why the evasion?
"Nipper, where the hell do you live?"
In a state with a growing Latino population, with an agricultural base that relies on Latino migrant labor, and with plenty of illegal Latino immigrants doing menial jobs.
Where do you live?
And, in case you forgot, why the evasion?
-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), July 19, 2001.
"Well, here’s a short list:" "(1). Lowering our standards for public school education"How, exactly, are illegal immigrants doing this? I would hazard a guess that your objection lies somewhere between ESL classes and bilingual primary school education, but I don't want to try to speak for you. What's your beef here? Doesn't Prop 187 keep illegals out of public school in your state?
"(2). Infesting society with violent gang activity. The authorities in Orange County alone have identified over 375 separate gangs."
Hmm. No whites or blacks or asians in any of those gangs, huh?
"(3). Having more children than they can possibly support without crippling the public assistance programs."
You do know that the Welfare Reform Act of 1996 made public assistance illegal for ALL recent immigrants -- including the legal ones -- don't you? In any case, illegals can't get public assistance without a valid SSN. And making one up won't help you, because officials can tell in about three seconds whether or not your SSN is valid and to whom it is registered. So tell me again how illegosas are getting all this public assistance? And tell me that members of other ethnic groups don't ever have more children than they can support?
"(4). Responsible for elevating our crime rates."
This might be true in your area, but it does not appear to be true in mine. In any event, I would like to see some proof that your claim is true, at least in your area (So Cal, IIRC).
So tell us again what the illegals are doing, Socrates. And please answer Nipper's question.
-- Already Done Happened (oh.yeah@it.did.com), July 20, 2001.
Think I’ll pass on any further debate on this issue. Let’s just say I see what I see and know what I know. I don’t have the skills or temperament to argue with ignorant bleeding heart liberals. Please enjoy your wonderful lives…..at your own expense of course.
-- So (cr@t.es), July 20, 2001.
Let’s just say I see what I see and know what I know.Isn't that what the FUD crowd said about Y2K?
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 20, 2001.
Tar, that's too funny! But truthfully, what does that have to do with this particular 'conversation' (I use that term loosely) with already?
-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), July 20, 2001.
Nothing.
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 20, 2001.
Here is a little exercise for the NWO zombies on this thread.Go find and post here a SINGLE SOLITARY study, article, anything showing illegal immigration a winner for ANYBODY. Please respect our intelligence and avoid using any prop from like NCLR or similar immigration lawyer based fronts.
If this is all so great, show me.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 20, 2001.
Go find and post here a SINGLE SOLITARY study, article, anything showing illegal immigration a winner for ANYBODY.So what's my prize?
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 20, 2001.
The "I am a Liberal" award Tarz.Here is another from Ely...Wh y Bill Clinton Should Be Re-elected
Now go and find some REAL articles not from a spoiled brat student aide at the University of Texas, Dallas.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 20, 2001.
Now go and find some REAL articles not from a spoiled brat student aide at the University of Texas, Dallas.Translation:
Go find something I agree with from someone who cites studies and sources that support my position.
:-)
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 20, 2001.
The article from Ely DOES support my position by basically saying illegals pay sales taxes, WOW! That is it?Go find some legitimate articles, surveys, studies.
Raise the levels here. BTW, I agree almost completely with this ELY dude on most things. He is not wrong, just spewing from a position where he can only see the backside of one tiny tree is all.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 20, 2001.
Sorry, Charlie. You can't change the dance once you've called the tune. Your original request was:Go find and post here a SINGLE SOLITARY study, article, anything showing illegal immigration a winner for ANYBODY.
I came up with an article citing several studies which show that some segments of American society do benefit from illegal immigration.
I win, you lose.
But thanks for playing!
:-)
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 20, 2001.
The article you posted is NOT relevant. WHY? here is why...Many in society feel that the increased burden that aliens place on schools and hospitals is a major expense. While an increased load upon these utilities obviously raises the costs associated with them, they are financed largely by bonds. These bonds are paid out over an incredibly long period of time, usually through sales taxes. Therefor, illegal immigrants pay roughly the same share for their use of these facilities as the natives (Simon 94).
From my experience, most schools and hospitals are financied by property taxes and user fees. Thus this is misleading as all hell. Not even mentioning his wording, which makes it sound like these bond measures will happen, illegals or not, which is not the case and he even says as much.
A common misconception is that illegal immigrants increase our cost for social services such as welfare. Several surveys, such as the one by Sidney Weintraub and Gilberto Cardenas of the University of Texas, demonstrate that aliens contribute more to public funds than do legal immigrants. Many illegal immigrants only stay in the United States for a short time and are afraid to apply for public assistance due to fears of being deported. However, aliens do pay taxes during their stay here (Simon 95).
Yes they do and he claims they are in the form of sales taxes. Now I can assure you, in the underground economy an illegal moves in, I would estimate that at least HALF of all sales taxes collected, never reach any governmental agency. They are in fact, 6-7-8% additional profits for the vendor. He merely pockets them. This is my opinion based on what I have seen, and know of and I can assure you this happens everyday.
Now the BIGGEST misconception in this article is this. And it basically says this guy is using shallow references at best and extrapolating statistics into a misleading web of baloney to fit his beliefs.
When an illegal alien takes a job that used to be a legal residents job, what happens? over time a whole welfare state is produced of legal residents displaced by illegal workers. Go to south central LA if you doubt this. The effects on Welfare are not so much the illegals, many of which do get aid despite what this yo-yo claims, but the effect is from the displacement of LEGAL residents out of the job market they once worked in and onto social services. Ignoring this FACT tells me this author does not understand the issue at all and is relying upon what he hopes it is. Failure to understand this KEY fact leads one to think and write what this guy does, he does not understand reality.
Next two paragraphs compare apples as if they were oranges and is not even worthy of any response, he is high. MOST illegals can barely speak two words of English. To become a Legal, one has to know a pile more than that. They also must show they are NOT going to be a drain on society. Illegals are illegal because most do not even consider doing it legal as this is not even their concern, a fact this yo-yo misses completely as is yet another key to understanding this issue.
Illegal immigration has a major effect on employment in the United States. The Immigration and Naturalization Service estimates that over 300,000 illegal immigrants enter this country each year (Tomasi 2). The majority of them come early in their lives with some work skills. According to the 1980 U.S. Census, 52% of male and 62% of female illegal immigrants were employed nationwide (Pearce 31). Although illegal immigrants work in many areas of the economy, the majority work in five sectors: farm workers, textile sewing machine operators, construction laborers, janitors, and maids/housemen. The other jobs claimed by illegal immigrants mainly comprise cooking, gardening, and various types of manual labor (Pearce 31).
This paragraph is so ridiculous it is laughable. So let me get this straight, about half the illegals who come here do what? Sit on their butts using this guys "indepth" analysis? This alone should tell this bonehead a pile of these illegals are either sucking social services or running drugs, or worse. He also claims they come here with some skills and then lists a bunch of stereotypical occupations which require little if any skill. That whole paragraph is bad fiction.
Organized labor has always been a strong opponent of illegal immigration. They have stated, quite logically, that for every job an illegal worker occupies, a native losses an opportunity. While this sounds like a competent argument, it is difficult to find data to support this claim. Julian Simon, a prominent researcher, has conducted many studies along with other scholars regarding immigration and unemployment. He studied overall unemployment in several U.S. cities who have different levels of legal and illegal immigration, and found that if such worker displacement existed, it was too small to be observed (Simon 96).
Enough to say at one time there used to be such a thing as a Union Laborer in the Construction Game, now? Also ignored conveniently is the effect millions of illegals have on ALL wages. I bet in every town in the USA of size, one can find a non-union Grocery Store amongst many Unionized shops. Who thinks this situation is helping the Union come bargaining time?
I will save my breath with the rest of this ridiculous article. I will only add using this guys OWN FIGURES, nearly half of the illegals he claims are indispensable are not even employed. I will also add the costs of many Construction pieces have dropped from the use of pre-fabricating goods, coming from? yep, Mexico. Most construction jobs today are assembly with little need for tradesman. Those still around, do remodels and the like as they have been driven out of NEW construction by Illegals and a flood of cheap imported goods made by similar slaves in the third world.
Tarz this article is not legit. It is baloney. The source documents I was unable to find. Article is dated and produced by a spoiled kid who I doubt has ever seen dirt on his hands. Doubt as much, research him.
What I want is a well researched, well documented study, article, showing illegal immigration a winner.
If you want to be the Left mirror of J and think this is all some contest fine, you win. I thought more highly of you, my bad.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 21, 2001.
Here is Mister Brent Ely's homepage if interested:http://www.utdallas.edu/~bre ntely/I like the copyright he has, rotflmao. Like who would care to steal any of this clowns stuff? Even If did, what is Brent gunna do, beat me up? too funny.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 21, 2001.
You said, "Go find and post here a SINGLE SOLITARY study, article, anything showing illegal immigration a winner for ANYBODY."And that's just what I did, so stop whining and accept it. If you had other criteria in mind, you should have articulated that at the time you made your demand. If you want something else now, you'll have to ask nicely.
:-)
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 21, 2001.
Please respect our intelligence and avoid using any prop from like NCLR or similar immigration lawyer based fronts.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 21, 2001.
in addition, FUCK YOU. Don't like Bushie, stop licking his a-hole then.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 21, 2001.
Please respect our intelligence and avoid using any prop from like NCLR or similar immigration lawyer based fronts.So are you claiming that Brent Ely, a student at the University of Texas, is a prop for the National Council of La Raza or are you claiming he's a "similar immigration lawyer based front"?
And by the way, where did you get the idea that the National Council of La Raza thinks illegal immigration is a good thing?
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 21, 2001.
Ok Tarz, do you want to get educated? Do you want to know what all the buzz about a thing called the New World Order is? is it real? what are their goals? who are they?Well National Council of La Raza(La Raza btw means THE RACE, that be Hispanics)is funded and controlled largely by the Ford Foundation. FF is an ultra-Liberal Globalist organization. They believe and promote the notions of No Borders, No National Sovereignty. They view the migration of people as if people are air molecules with a natural right to come and go as they please.
NCLR holds the view that ALL Hispanics, legal or otherwise, are one. Ok Tarz, do you want to get educated? Do you want to know what all the buzz about a thing called the New World Order is? is it real? what are their goals? who are they?
I present a bit from a key NWO player. Many in this here country should know all too well by now. You may not know from where a Boy Scout controversy emanates from, or why the ACLU has gone off the deep end, so here is a look inside the noise, specifically the source of much of this Bush Amnesty scheme, and other issues dressed as Nobel Human Rights pleas which are really nothing but class warfare and slavetrading.
The National Council of La Raza(La Raza btw means THE RACE, that be Hispanics)is funded and controlled largely by the Ford Foundation. FF is an ultra-Liberal Globalist organization. They believe and promote the notions of No Borders, No National Sovereignty. They view the migration of people as if they were air molecules with a natural right to come and go as they please. What FF does is create class warfare with a pen and pencil and a controlled media.
NCLR holds the view that ALL Hispanics, legal or otherwise, are one. You see to these people, there is no such thing as America, only land masses, and THE RACE. NCLR is very clever in that they very rarely if ever use the term "illegals". NCLR refers to all as Immigrants, Migrationists, specifically La Raza. They know full well most supposed "immigrants", from say Mexico, are not actively seeking Legal means of residency. But to NCLR, this is but a moot point anyhow as they view a Bush mass Pardon the same as doing it the traditional legal way(ends justify the means). Again, it does not matter to an NCLR how it comes about, because to their philosophy there is no border(s) or Law(s) anyhow. Laws are but the creation of White Folks who THE RACE do not follow anyhow.
You should at this point understand these folks are as racist as say the KKK, because they are. I have personally worked in workplaces where I was discriminated against by Hispanics because I was a lone white, it happens. The name La Raza says it all. You may not believe me, but this is really just the KKK for Hispanics, updated and streamlined.
To get a better understanding of the Philosophy, a paper written for the Ford Foundation by Anthony D. Romero, Director, Human Rights and International Cooperation, Ford Foundation. NCLR is a smaller group funded and controlled by the Parent FF. Globalized Latinos: The Opportunities and Challenges of Leadership
an excerpt:Yet, despite this large increase in the flows of peoples - and Latinos in particular - to the U.S., we are simultaneously witnessing a xenophobic and anti-immigrant backlash. And let's make no mistake, the two are very much related. From Proposition 187 to welfare reform to immigration reform, the political backlash to this movement of peoples - the wrong kind of peoples in the eyes of some - is quite clear. As Beto Juarez says in his recent review of the Ford Foundation's engagement with the Latino community, this backlash is widespread and troubling, "whether defined as immigrants, as drug dealers, as gang members, or as Spanish speakers, Hispanics are classified by the current political climate as a problem of society and are perceived as a threat to the United States."
You will note, not a mention about Illegals. The term used is Immigrants, no distinction is made because they do not believe in one. What this speaker has done is to reduce the discussion to that of Racism. A key tactic of all Globalists is to promote racial and class struggle, this is how it is done. The ISSUE is ILLEGAL immigration, not Racism.
People have had it UP TO HERE with having to pay for ANYBODY who decides it is their right to suck-off the taxpayer, the LEGAL honest hardworking citizens of this Nation. I am not going to sit here and say Racism is absent, but it is not even close to the issue this guy wants his readers to assume it is. This Racism deal is a RUSE. It is in fact a description of THEM.
This is where I get the FACT that NCLR is but a front, a pr machine promoting Racism and the notion that borders, sovereignty, and the like are just so much nonsense to THE RACE. The NCLR does not mention illegals because to their philosophy there is no such thing. Miss THAT, and you do not have a chance at understanding what is going on here. This is an INVASION which organizations like NCLR feel is the "order", the New World Order.
As to Brent Ely, well enough to say I read his stuff, explored his website and concluded he is a nice kid who needs to actually go out and get his hands dirty in the real world. His material is thrid generation bs from La Raza, outdated too boot. The article you posted rests on Census information from 1980. Do not expect me to take that seriously with an issue where timeframe is very important.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 22, 2001.
excuse the paragraph mess, so much for using Word and then transferring.
-- (Jesus@Iam.stoopid), July 22, 2001.
Just as I thought. You have nothing beyond your opinion that the NCLR is pro-illegal immigration, except of course, your own xenophobia, NWO paranoia, and weak grasp of Spanish. How sad.
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 22, 2001.
Hooo boy! You know next to nothing about the NCLR!For starters, the term "La Raza" means "the people". Sure, it literally translates into "the race" but if you knew anything about us, you would know that we are not a single race. La Raza means anyone who shares our culture, heritage and language, whether they're a blonde haired Castillan or a black skinned Cubano. The first person who started using the term was a professor named José Vasconcelos. His use of the term is "La Raza Cósmica" which means "the cosmic people" and it reflects our diversity. It is not an exclusionary term.
Second, the NCLR is nothing like the KKK. They are an advocacy group, in the same tradition as the NAACP and the JDL. They do not advocate violence and they do not advocate exclusion based on race. How could they? Being one of the people is not a matter of race!
Third, you won't be able to produce any documents showing the NCLR is pro-illegal immigration because the NCLR is anti-illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is dangerous for the immigrants and puts them in a prime position to be taken advantage of by pretty much anyone who comes along. The NCLR is concerned with immigration not only because many Hispanics are immigrants, or the children of immigrants, but all of us are at risk of being suspected as immigrants. I myself have been harassed by the police many times and I am a third generation American citizen.
But don't take my word for it. Read what Cecilia Munoz, NCLR VP had to say about the border in her congressional testimony this April:
So much for your lie that the NCLR believes border's shouldn't exist. You've obviously confused them with the Libertarian Party.
-- Olivia Valdez (olivia@nomail.please), July 22, 2001.
For starters, the term "La Raza" means "the people". Sure, it literally translates into "the race" but if you knew anything about us, you would know that we are not a single race.La Raza means THE RACE, period end of story. Sorry I am not buying the BS and redefinitions to fit your agenda.
Not only have you bought the BS new definition, you are not even aware (or willing to admit) your leadership has been bought out as well. NCLR, like the NAACP and the ACLU are not even close to what they were even 20 years ago. There are reasons for this.
Look, if NCLR was legit they would be out front calling the Bush Amnesty Plan what it is.....BULLSHIT. They would be HONORING decades of Latinos, and everybody else who followed the rules and became AMERICANs FIRST and descendants from wherever and whatever second. Are they? There would be reams of articles against Illegals-Criminals on nclr.org, is there? They would not be publishing articles lumping everyone, legal and illegal into the same basket.
The point here is not about folks like you Olivia, or Tarzan. The point is many average folks need to deeply understand GW Bush is NOT what you may think him to be. This issue shows better than any I think, who this guy owes allegiance to, hint it is NOT the United States of America.
You need to understand how these people operate. How they corrupt organizations. How by way of funding and selective listening using key politicians, they can buy the loyalty of millions of these organizations followers who only want Justice. A goal in direct opposition to what these scumballs have in mind. They wrap themselves in do gooders as they stick the knife in you.
I DO know better than you.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 22, 2001.
BTW, you are worried about INS harrassment? Then why is NCLR against any form of a National ID?Do not blame the good people of the INS. They work with the tools and regulations given to them(as corrupt as they are). A system which BREEDS the type of harrassment you have encountered. News is, this condition is EXACTLY the way THEY want it. They want classes indetified, THE RACE. Open your eyeballs.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 22, 2001.
Here is a profile of your Do-Gooder( paid Lobbyist Hack) Cecilia Muñoz and fromOpens ecrets.org on MunozBTW, the Ford Foundation is led by a major Bildeberger Paul A. Allaire, and Council on Foreign Relations and Trilateral Commission member Susan V. Berresford.
Too funny and I am supposed to be the one who is clueless? hahaha
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 22, 2001.
Here is the article Tarzan should have posted back a ways. This is why I am not a Libertarian.http://www.lp.org/iss ues/immigration.html
You will note just like with NCLR, the Libertarians lump all, Legal and Illegal, into the same boat. Why? because this IS THE CFR PLAN, the WAY they have decided it will be. Say it enough times and most will begin to believe there is no difference. The Libertarian Party is a sham.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 22, 2001.
Wow, four posts, each more rabid than the last. Sounds like you hit a nerve, Olivia.La Raza means THE RACE, period end of story. Sorry I am not buying the BS and redefinitions to fit your agenda.
By this logic, the phrase someone isn't playing with a full deck only means someone who's playing poker with less than 52 cards.
Language is a subtle thing. Often words and phrases have a literal meaning and a contextual meaning. No valley girl ever said, gag me with a spoon to request someone stick a spoon down her throat although that is its literal meaning, and while the word cheesy can refer to flavor, when we accuse people or things of being cheesy we aren't talking about the way they taste.
Context is everything, sport. You missed it this time.
Look, if NCLR was legit they would be out front calling the Bush Amnesty Plan what it is.....BULLSHIT.
So now you're the arbiter of "legit". Great.
The NCLR hasn't made any statements on the Bush Amnesty Plan yet because there isn't anything to say about the plan. It's not solidified yet, it's still in the development stage. They're taking a reasonable approach in waiting for a final proposal to come out so they can study it and formulate a position. If they weren't a "legit" organization, they would be jumping the gun on the plan right now, before waiting to see what it will look like.
There would be reams of articles against Illegals-Criminals on nclr.org, is there? They would not be publishing articles lumping everyone, legal and illegal into the same basket.
The NCLR is a broad-based advocacy group, which means they cover a wide range of issues that are of interest to their constituency, including civil rights, economic status, education, labor, health, leadership, and yes, immigration. You characterize them as a hate- group and you don't even know what their name means and you have yet to produce any documents from them that support anything you've said about them. Yet somehow the NCLR is supposed to cater to your whims? Talk about an ego!
Here is a profile of your Do-Gooder( paid Lobbyist Hack) Cecilia Muñoz and fromOpens ecrets.org on Munoz
I don't get it. Opensecrets.org says she's a paid lobbyist for NCLR. So what? Are you claiming that NCLR shouldn't be allowed to have paid lobbyists? Considering that their total lobby expenditures are $180,000 for about ten lobbyists, I would think you would be thrilled!
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 22, 2001.
Geesh what an excellent example of how these maggots discredit people. I post information which says Munoz is a CAREER LOBBYIST and I am supposed to ignore this fact when reading her "creations"? The freaking woman gets $500k+ a year to do what Tarzan? tell the truth? You are insane, plain and simple.I understand what the Name La Raza is fine. Maybe you ought look into Aztlan and see if you can redefine that word as well.
Like Socrates, I am done yapping with slicksters like you Tarzan. It is pointless. You provide nothing and claim I am not providing the same. It is not my problem if you cannot connect the dots.
-- (Jesus@youpeopleare.stoopid), July 22, 2001.
Geesh what an excellent example of how these maggots discredit people.I haven't discredited anyone. You're the one who made yourself look ridiculous. You certainly didn't need any help.
I post information which says Munoz is a CAREER LOBBYIST and I am supposed to ignore this fact when reading her "creations"?
Wow. Your naivete about the Spanish language is matched only by your ignorance of politics. It is extremely common for the board members of an organization to also lobby for that organization. If the organization is small enough, very often they will be the only lobbyists for that organization. This is the case for the NCLR, which is the only group that has retained Cecilia Nunoz as a lobbyist. They only have in-house lobbyists and for the year in question only spent $180,000 on those lobbying efforts.
The freaking woman gets $500k+ a year to do what Tarzan?
First, you have to establish that she gets $500 K a year. While you've shown that she won a MacArthur Fellowship, the MacArthur Fellowship is a one-time grant of $500 K for a period of five years. By my math, this equates to $100 K a year, which, while certainly not something to sneeze at, doesn't even come close to $500 K a year.
Since you seem to know very little about the MacArthur Fellowship, here's a link to their FAQ. Here's a link to the list of 2000 winners. As you can see, it's also populated by such radicals as Susan Alcock, professor of Classics at the University of Michigan, coregrapher Susan Marshall, and Samuel Mockbee, professor of Architecture at Auburn University in Auburn, AL.
I understand what the Name La Raza is fine.
Then you were lying when you claimed that the term La Raza refers to race. Shame on you.
Maybe you ought look into Aztlan and see if you can redefine that word as well.
What do you think it means?
:-)
You provide nothing and claim I am not providing the same.
Here's how this works, Jesus. You make an argument, you back it up. If you cannot do that, your argument has failed. Plain and simple.
-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), July 22, 2001.
"Think I’ll pass on any further debate on this issue."Mmm hmm. Looks like your "evidence" got a nice big hole poked in it, Socrates. And now you don't want to play any more, because the other kids don't want you calling the tune, right?
Look, Socrates, if you don't like Hispanics or immigrants or Hispanic immigrants or whoever, fine. That's your own business. But don't talk shit about how bad they are and then run like a frightened little girl from dogshit on a stick when someone asks you to back up your garbage.
"Let’s just say I see what I see and know what I know."
Let's not. That was a stupid and wrong argument when the doomers used it, and it's no less stupid and wrong now that you're using it. Let's just say that you don't like Hispanic immigrants, and that you have no logical, defensible reason for your prejudice, and agree to disagree on the details.
"I don’t have the skills or temperament to argue"
Well, THAT'S certainly obvious.
"with ignorant bleeding heart liberals."
Again with the name-calling, you ignorant son of a bitch. I have never voted for a Democrat in my entire life. I am a CONSERVATIVE, you ignorant bastard, but one who uses FACT and REASON to build his positions. Rush Limbaugh is fond of saying that fact and reason defeat liberalism whenever they are tried, but he ignores the fact that sometimes, fact and reason defeat HIS particular brand of conservatism.
Illegal immigration gives certain parts of this country a useful, low- wage labor pool. And Hispanics are a growing political force in this country, and will outnumber blacks in 10-15 years. Now, I don't care for President Bush, but as much as it pains me to admit it, he is correct in wanting to issue an amnesty. Finding and deporting all illegal immigrants would be prohibitively expensive, time-consuming, and would only increase prices for produce and in certain low-wage sectors of the economy. And it would piss off the Hispanic voters that Georgie wants to court. He ain't gonna do it. And he's right not to.
"Please enjoy your wonderful lives….."
Um, I already am. BTW, thanks for identifying yourself for me. Now I can tag your name to some of those earlier troll posts, Socrates.
"at your own expense of course."
Everything I do is at my own expense. I pay my own freight. What do YOU do?
-- Already Done Happened (oh,yeah@it.did.com), July 23, 2001.
IMO, any jabbering idiot who would breathlessly froth about the Trilateral Commission, the Ford Foundation, Bilderbergers and the NWO is a either a total troll or an utterly unhinged freakazoid.Listen, Jesus, head on over to carnicom.com, or maybe to Art Bell's web page. They enjoy people like you over there, and you'll be able to expand your conspiracy theories to include the Greys and the "Full- Blood Shapechanging Lizard Aliens."
If you hang around here, you'll just become fresh meat.
Whoops. You already are.
-- Already Done Happened (oh.yeah@it.did.com), July 23, 2001.