Our chicks are about three weeks old. When the pup went for them in the past, we would scold her. We tried to demonstrate that the chicks were of value and not to be harmed.

Today the pup killed one. The kids were there for the aftermath and scolded her.

Not sure what to do next.

We're thinking that we should pen the pup up with the chicks and if she goes for a chick we should scold her. It doesn't seem like enough though. After all, we bought the great pyr with the idea that she would protect the chickens.

Any suggestions?

-- Paul Wheaton (paul@javaranch.com), July 04, 2001

Answers

Pen the puppy up next to the chicks. Do not leave her alone with them.

Sometimes it takes maturity before these dogs figure things out.

http://lgd.org they have alot of information there about LGD and various training techniques.

-- westbrook (westbrook_farms@yahoo.com), July 04, 2001.

I was wondering if the pup is just too young yet.

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), July 04, 2001.

Paul, you are asking a lot of a 10-week-old pup not to chase something that will run from it. You have a long time to wait for maturity with these dogs, although they will guard at an early age and in the meantime, expect chewed up hoses and mistakes such as the chicks. My current male had a chick snack once and we had a serious discussion as outlined below. Afterward, he wouldn't even look at a chick and still doesn't.

However, what do you mean when you say scold? Shaking a finger at it and telling it no in a gentle voice doesn't cut it. When my dogs were learning, my scold including screaming like a mad woman (good thing we have few neighbors), flipping the dog on its back, holding it down by the fur on the sides of its neck, gently shaking it, growling right into its face and explaining the error of its ways. Think about how an alpha wolf would discipline his pack. This sounds over the top (and looks very funny when someone else does it) but I did it once to a friend's year old male who was quite obnoxious and wouldn't submit to humans even his owner. Never again did he give me any garbage when I tended him in her absense. In the meantime, use a chicken tractor with the chicks. The pup needs to be learning her territory, not penned, so be sure to walk her around the area she is to protect.

Also keep in mind that what is cute and funny with a 30# puppy may not be so convenient or endearing in a full grown dog. Or...as my grandma used to say, start out like you intend to keep up.

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), July 04, 2001.

We want to do open range chickens like salatin does with his "eggmobile". This is why we got a LGD instead of lots of chicken wire.

The kids shouted at her. One says she hit her, but I doubt that was significant. I forgot about the on-the-back-hand-over-the-throat thing - gotta use that.

It does sound like it may be to early for the pup. I like the idea of keeping them close, but seperate. When will the pup be ready for livestock protection? I seem to remember something about four or five months from my reading.

I used lgd.org to do my research on which breed to get. I don't know why I didn't remember that they have mountains of other info. Thanks!

-- Paul Wheaton (paul@javaranch.com), July 04, 2001.

Paul, We raise border collies and sheep and goats. The books say that border collies should not see an animal unless they are in training to herd. We didn't pay attention to this and several years ago our six week puppies 8 of them attacked our herds they had quite a lot of fun and basically scared the sheep and goats some were scratched and the lambs and kids that fell had bites one nearly had chewed off ears. They packed to do this at only 6 weeks old. I guess what I'm trying to say is pay attention to the books. I read an article in Countryside one time that the Guard dog must be raised with the animals it is to guard (in the barn) but not in with them. If I find the article or if it is the archives read it and maybe that will help. Linda in Indy

-- Linda in indy (freeinindy@yahoo.com), July 04, 2001.

Paul, I agree, the pup just wants to play, you did the right thing to scold. We raise pyrs, they grow up with baby chicks and we've not lost one but they do literally grow up in the barn together. I am a firm believer these are the best farm dogs you can have. One day a while back my male was pushing against one of our fences and crying and carrying on something awful. I thought he was stuck in the fence or had is foot trapped or somthing. Turns out there was a chick in the livestock water, and he was trying to get him out but couldn't get through the fence. The happy ending is the poor chick was suffering from hypothermia and in very poor shape. I put it under a hen who was setting who was only too thrilled to suddenly have a "3 week old chick hatch". I kept it there just long enough to warm up and gain strength. Ordinarilly I'd have brought it in the house but we were on our way out when I found it.

Apologies for the thread drift Paul but I suspect this dog will serve you well. It just takes time to learn the routine. We gave my dad one of our puppies, who had been raised with chickens. My dad didn't get chickens for about 2 months and when he first did his dog chased them (actually just wanted to play). He disciplined the dog and he soon stopped. Now he protects the chickens!

Good luck - Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), July 04, 2001.

Paul, some dogs I have been unable to unlearn/decondition from killing chickens, had an old German Shepard that KNEW he wasn't supposed to touch the chickens, and did so anyway, he was so guilty looking aferwards, you knew he did it! Had a young German Shepard pup, the same way!

Eventually gave up, and keep the chickens in a large, well built ( bear proof, yes, we HAVE black bears, and mountain lions in Ohio!!!) chicken house, since I sell eggs, it made more sense to keep them all in one place anyway, to acess all the eggs. Easier for me to pick a 5 gallon bucket of "greens" for them everyday than keep the predators/dogs away from them.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), July 07, 2001.

If you can, try to expose the pup to full grow chickens ,ducks, geese and such, the male birds will especially get the pups attention. When he grows up, he won't know his advantage and will just see them as neighbors instead of lunch. In extreme cases, I've heard tying the dead chick around their neck in a knit bag will break them of killing.

-- Raymond Gray (RorLGray@graytv.com), July 10, 2001.