After reading the post on SSRI meds I have been concidering useing St. Johns Wart for my depression. Have any of you had any experience with St. Johns Wart? Good or Bad. I'd like to hear them.

-- (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), June 25, 2001

Answers

I take St. John's Wort in Winter as the lack of sunshine is difficult for me. I think it is an excellent anti-depressant for me. I take it with the approval of my doctor. I don't take it in summer as it makes some people sun sensitive and I don't feel that "down in the dumps" feeling much in summer. I suggest that you may want to try it. Be aware, as with most anti-depressants, it takes time for it to be effective.

-- Ardie from WI (ardis54965@hotmail.com), June 25, 2001.

I tried St. John's Wort prior to starting Prozac. Can't really say for certain that it did anything (same for prozac.) I think you have to BELIEVE it will help you and maybe it will.

Wishing you enough.

-- Dianne in Mass (dianne.bone@usa.net), June 25, 2001.

You will find that there is no consistency between companies on herbs and such. If one doesn't work, try another. I did take St. John's wart for about a year and found one that worked well for me. The only real problem is that it can make your skin more sensitive to sunshine (translate that to sunburns !).

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

Ok, I will tell all. I took St John's Wort for about 5 months, for monthly emotional instability. As with all herbal treatments, it takes a while to get the effect. It is not like popping a chemical pill that hits the problem and bingo, you feel better in half an hour. It takes from 4 to 6 weeks of St. John's Wort before it builds up in your system enough to give consistantly reliable results.

The problem with St. John's Wort, is that there are interactions with both prescription and over the counter drugs. It behaves as a MAOI which means when you are on it, you may not take over the counter cold medications, for fear of very serious drug interactions. Also, NEVER EVER EVER take St. John's Wort as a supplement to your prescription drugs intended for treatment of depression. Together, they can kill you!

St. John's Wort also interacts with yeasts and molds, so while taking it, be sure to avoid all breads, aged cheeses, wine, soy sauce, or any other fermented foods. If you have a problem with yeast infections, do not take St. John's Wort. Interactions between this herb and yeast can be deadly.

While taking St. John's Wort, I became severely nauseated within seconds after swallowing each dose. I did not know that this was a warning signal that something was wrong. I continued taking it for a few more months, until I simply almost threw up upon taking it. At that point, I decided that the mood swings were preferable to the nausea. I really think that I have a "Candida Albicans" overgrowth internally, and the herb was interacting with it.

It does help some people. In double-blind tests, St. John's Wort has been proven to be as effective as some prescription drugs. In Germany, it is the drug of choice for depression, prescribed mroe than any other anti-depressive. I strongly advise that you check with your doctor before trying it.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

By the way, since I am off St. John's Wort, I have noticed that I am more unstable emotionally again. The only thing that truely stabilises me is every single morning to take sufficient time in solitude with God to gain peace for the day. I find that I have had enough time, only when I come to the point that I dont want to leave that place of solitude with Him.

Hope this helps!

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

I second what Becky has said. Not all over the counter herbal remedies are created equally. Some use the wrong parts of the plant. Some use additives and fillers that interfere with proper absorption. Some use processes that destroy the active substances, which are mostly volatiles. Echinacea is a prime example of this, there was an echinacea "fad" and everybody and their dog hopped on the bandwagon to turn something out they could slap a label saying "echinacea" on and the result has been that a lot of garbage got dumped on the market. Same thing has happened (to a slightly lesser extent) with St. John's Wort.

St. John's Wort IS effective in certain types of chemically based depressions, but it takes 6 to 8 weeks to start seeing an effect. If it was a "placebo" type effect it wouldn't take that long, and studies have confirmed its effectiveness in certain cases.

I don't know how to tell you to sort the sheep from the goats, but know that expense is no indicator. Some of the really pricey herbal remedies are junk too. Since the whole herbal thing is by and large not mainstream and not taken seriously its hard to find objective information.

Sorry I couldn't give you any more definitive advice re a specific, known effective, brand of St. John's Wort.

I would like to reiterate, though, that treatment with ANY drug for depression really needs to be temporary. You need to identify the roots of your depression and deal with them. Then you won't NEED the drugs anymore. Any antidepressant should be a tool to give you the breathing space to get back on your feet, not a permanent crutch.

It CAN be done. It's harder work than just swallowing a pill, but money can't buy happiness, not even in tablet form. :D

Please take that as friendly advice. I speak as someone who has been there.

I mentioned in another thread that my mother had emotional problems; well we were all abused in my family as children, rather severely. Over the years I have dealt with that. My brothers and sisters have not, and I watch them struggle with all sorts of problems that causes them and their children and loved ones. No amount of drugs will solve their problems - drugs HAVEN'T solved their problems. Only dealing with the issues at the root of their unhappiness will solve their problems.

I'm not saying that you must have been abused as a child; there are many many things that lead us to be depressed. Basically anytime you feel you have little or no control over your situation that's bound to lead to depression. A job you don't like, a relationship you don't feel you can end, even something as seemingly silly as the color the walls in your apartment are painted, or which direction your living room window faces - could be almost anything. Depression, anxiety, and panic are all signs there is something unharmonious in your life. The need is to identify that and fix it.

And before someone brings it up, I'll bring it up myself, yes, there are certain forms of depression that really are biologically based, but they are unusual to rare. Most depression today is situational. The problem is that many of us don't, can't, or won't recognize that. I've known a lot of people undergoing treatment for depression and NONE of them had an actual biological problem. The ONLY ones who aren't being treated anymore - "cured" - are the ones who dropped the drugs and made some change in their life.

For what its worth ...

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

sojourner, I think the reason so many people are on drugs prescribed by their doc, is because that doc is under pressure to shove the patients through. What doc sits down and really listens anymore? Only the old fashioned ones, that's for sure!

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

True. And why is that? So the doctor can make more money, faster. It all comes down to a lack of values - or at least POSITIVE, healthy values - in our society as a whole.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

Actually, family practices are being bought out by managed care groups, and those who do not cooperate, are put under severe strain to keep up with the insurance they have to pay. So either way, they HAVE to shove the patients through, to meet their own financial obligations. (Of course, a doctor has to also maintain his standard of living, in order to be viewed by other doctors as decent enough to refer their patients to.) ...and it all boils down to ... its the fault of selfish patients who sue exhorbitantly to "punish" any mistakes a doctor may make.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

I have used St, John's Wort for about 3 years. Whenever I'm feeling in a bad mood for no reason I take 2 capsules and within an hour I feel much better! I used to take a weak tranquilizer for the same purpose, but the wort works just as good.

My doctor thinks this is a great idea.

-- debra in ks (solid-dkn@msn.com), June 25, 2001.

daffodyllady, I disagree with you on this. There are doctors who run practices that DON'T charge exhorbitant fees. The reason doctors go to the managed care or group practices is that they can make more money that way. The primary motivation is MONEY, first foremost and always.

While I agree that this society is sue happy, the fact is that its not medical malpractice suits that are causting this. It's the greed of the individual doctors. Are they any worse than, say, the average computer programmer or engineer? Well, yes and no.

No, because greed is ugly no matter where it rears its head.

But yes, because of the nature of the service being provided. There's something PARTICULARLY ugly about profiteering at the expense of someone's health, physical well-being, and even life.

I had a long talk recently with my (former) family doctor. He's in his 70's now and retired. He told me he was glad to get out when he did because he couldn't stand to watch what was happening to his profession. The money grubbing, the lack of actual caring, the emphasis on profit rather than healing. Until the day he retired his fees were half the going rate, and he had been instrumental in founding and running a free clinic at the university where he taught because he felt the medical school needed to give back to the people in the area. After he retired, they closed it. Not profitable.

And lets keep in mind, the AMA's alleged standards of professional behaviour and so-called self-policing, which they don't do, has not helped one little bit to stem the tide of malpractice suits.

Do you really think that a woman who goes in for a D&C and comes out having had her clitoris removed and various sorts of plastic surgery performed on her nether regions should NOT be able to sue the doctor who did it, and the hospital that allowed him to do it?

This happened. Look up "Dr. Burt" on a web search, maybe you should throw in a couple of other terms like "mutilation" to make it easier to find the information.

It's bad enough this guy did these things, but he not only did them, he did them for THIRTY YEARS. The hospital knew he was doing it. Every doctor in town - and a bunch across the country - knew he was doing it.

I had a friend who narrowly escaped his "improvements" to her physiology. She happened to mention in passing to her urologist that she had an appointment for a D&C the following week with Dr. Burt. Her urologist looked alarmed, and immediately asked if she would mind if he observed the operation. She said sure, fine, having no idea why he would want to do such a thing.

It was only years later when Burt finally got sued and the truth came out that she figured out why her urologist wanted to be there - to keep that scalpel wielding maniac from mutilating my friend.

MY OWN DOCTOR, one of the finest and most caring doctors I've ever known, looked uncomfortable and wouldn't say anything when the subject of Dr. Burt came up. Years later he admitted to me (after he'd retired) that he knew, EVERYBODY knew, but nobody could tell because the AMA would censure and possibly revoke the license of the whistle blower.

So in the absence of any sort of policing of themselves, what are you going to do? For every "frivolous" medical malpractice suit, there's a doctor who is incompetent, drunk, or just plain crazy like Dr. Burt, to be dealt with.

If medical malpractice is out the roof, that's at least PARTLY the AMA and the other doctor's fault as well, for refusing to clean their own house.

But don't lay the blame at the door of medical malpractice suits. It's the motivation to have 2 beemers and an SUV and a 5 bedroom house and bigger better more more more more more that drives this particular monster.

And no, doctors AREN'T the only ones doing it. That's why its such a big problem.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

I much prefer Kava Kava, and take it 2 weeks a month. St. Johns Wart worked fine but this worked better for me. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 25, 2001.

Thanks for all of the info. Sojourner, you are probably right, but I hope my depression is chemical in nature, because taking a pill is easier. Facing ones problems takes courage, and changing take even more. My wife picked up a bottle of St. Johns wort for me today and I'm going to give it a try.

-- Del Grinolds (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), June 25, 2001.

Del said: "taking a pill is easier. Facing ones problems takes courage, and changing take even more."

*Sigh* My point exactly. That's the problem in a nutshell. It SEEMS easier but it really isn't. Doctors couldn't push these pills if people weren't so willing and ready to take what looks like the easy way out. And nothing really gets solved ...

Well, I do wish you well, regardless.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

I tried the herb and I broke out with a red rash under my eye. Though maybe I had been bitten by a spider but the rash would not go away. I stop with the herb and the rash went away. Started again and the rash return. I wonder if the rash is the result of sun sensitivity that is mention.

-- Debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), June 25, 2001.

no, Debbie, a rash is indication of a serious interaction with the drug, it is not from increased sensitivities to sunlight. This herb is a serious drug.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 26, 2001.

Telling somebody with depression to just learn to deal with whatever is depressing them is the same as telling somebody with Parkinson's disease to learn to hold their hands still. It's a similar problem--a lack of the right neurotransmitter in specific parts of the brain. Most depression today is not "environmental" but is biological/chemical. There are definite hereditary factors that contribute to depression.

St. John's Wort is one of the few popular herbal remedies that repeatedly shows a significant benefit in properly conducted trails.

http://health.discovery.com/ used to have a good section on herbal medicines. I don't know if it is still there or not. I would rely on it more than the bottle label for instructions.

As others have said, there is a wide range in effectiveness from brand to brand.

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), June 26, 2001.

Paul, you are utterly wrong. Todays society is far too pill happy, and people who buy into that mindset are just asking to be drugged out of their minds for the rest of their lives. The number of people who ACTUALLY have chemical imbalances that cause depression, whether mono or bipolar, are very small. The vast majority of the rest of us are just not dealing with something.

I find it odd that people who are utterly opposed to legalizing relatively harmless substances such as cannabis (pot) are so very comfortable with the idea of being zoned out of their minds on powerful psychoactive drugs such as Prozac and Zoloft.

Do you further realize that there is no clinical evidence supporting any set level of seratonin in the brain, and that blood test don't accurately reflect brain levels anyway? That seratonin levels fluctuate normally? So how are we supposed to medicate ourselves into some mythical level of perfect chemical balance anyway?

It's as ridiculous to make the claim that someone who is depressed is helpless to help themselves as it would be to claim that antidepressants have NO place in the treatment of depression. They certainly do, as a temporary measure, and as a permanent supplement in those rare instances in which someone actually has a physical problem. Unfortunately doctors are far to willing to throw a pill at the problem and patients to take them.

Depression is a state of mind that is influenced by behaviour and environment. It happens to be a state of mind that can be self reinforcing - once you are depressed it can be difficult to break out of it without some outside intervention, even (temporary use of) drugs.

But I reject utterly the need for permanent medication for vast hordes of the populace. I sure hope its not a Brave New World yet.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 26, 2001.

Sojourner, I agree with you to a large extent. Personal choices in response to difficult situations do trigger depression. However, I wish I could see some studies researching the possiblity that perhaps seratonin levels are naturally affected by choices we make. Popping a pill for depression is just as stupid as taking a painkiller for an infected cut. Granted, the pain goes away, but what happens to the underlying problem? If seratonin levels are naturally lowered in response to negative attitude choices, then what needs working on, are skills in attitude adjustment.

When my sister's husband landed in jail for sexually abusing every single one of their 9 kids (including the baby), she had a reason for becoming depressed. In fact, she stuggled with suicidal thoughts. The thought of taking a knife to herself seemed a way to block the psychological anguish. The only thing that kept her alive for a while was the fact that her kids needed her.

She found peace in the midst of the storm in Jesus. Truely, we are spirits, and when our spirits are not at peace, our lives will be disrupted. But when our spirits are completely at one with the One Who IS peace, the storm may rage, but we are at anchor in the harbor of our refuge.

Am I off track here? Will this response be censored? I am responding with personal experience to the question of depression. I hope you will allow me the courtesy of allowing me to share my experience in this area, even though it requires me to use the Name above all names, the Name of our Saviour Jesus. He is truely the only way to Peace in the storm.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

There are two different things (but similar symptoms) labeled as ‘depression.' The type of crisis that Daffodillady mentioned is short-term and most people ‘get over it' with or without medication. It usually is caused by ‘something bad' happening. Even though this sort of depression is usually for a finite amount of time, it should be treated in some professional way if it interferes with your life in a significant way. Any medication should be used only for a very short period--days or at most weeks. In these cases treating with drugs only masks the symptoms long enough for the person to put things in perspective.

Chronic depression is generally a different beast all together. Since the symptoms look the same it has been traditionally been thought of as having a similar cause: ‘bad things happening.' Studies using imaging of the brain to show activity that there are parts of the brain that just don't work normally in chronically depressed people--including people with seasonal troubles. ‘Cheering up' and getting rid of the obvious behavioral symptoms (for a short period) does not change the brain activity, and hence does not change the long-term effects.

There are several neurological disorders--Alzheimer's, at least the hereditary form of Parkinson's and others--where depression often shows up well in advance of other clinical symptoms. There have also been studies that show a definite hereditary tendency for chronic depression. I don't think they have pegged the exact gene yet, but people are looking for it.

In these chronic cases, treatment with some form of medication is the only long-term solution known. You may argue what percentage of chronically depressed people fall in each category if you wish, but it is very out dated and against modern evidence to say there is no chemical link in "the vast majority" of people.

Having said that, many anti-depressants only add an offsetting imbalance rather than effecting what is wrong. The active parts in St John's Wort directly effect the neural transmitter ratios in the brain, and not just add a counter-depression euphoria that some treatments do.

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), June 27, 2001.

Dafodyllady, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm trying to get across. Depression is an entirely natural response to an insuperable situation, as in the case of your sister.

It is known, and the studies DO exist, that behaviour, attitude, mindset, all affect seratonin levels. The thing is there is no set concentration of seratonin that is "normal" for every human being on the planet. Using drugs to manipulate seratonin levels artificially is dangerous because of this. The arbitrarily defined "normal" level of seratonin may in fact be far too low or far too high in any given individual.

What your sister suffered was a rather blatantly obvious case of acute depression - not even the worst of the pill pushers are likely to try to make a case for permanent medication out of that! Well, some of them will anyway, but they'd be more covert about it.

I myself am not religious - in fact I'd say I'm pretty strongly anti-religious (that's anti-organized-religion) in my own life. But religion is a strong spiritual base for many people, and that is what is needed to help people through a crisis like that. My spiritual base happens to totally exclude any of the trappings of any organized religion, but it certainly works for those who subscribe to it and I would hope no one on this group would have a problem with that. We can respect the beliefs of others without subscribing to them.

Anyway that's a different issue.

Unfortunately many people in todays society have lost their spiritual base, or are out of touch with it (and consequently with themselves and those around them). Without that spiritual base, they are adrift. A case of acute depression in such circumstances can easily become chronic. Depression is a vicious circle - no, more like an ever downward turning spiral. It's not so obvious sometimes when someone is falling into a state of self-reinforcing, chronic depression.

These are the people who are most likely to be improperly, permanently medicated, and the least likely to actually be helped by such medication, because often the source of their depression is either behavioural in nature, repressed (something they don't want to deal with so they just pretend its not there, say an abusive jo or spouse or lover), or the original triggering incident was so long ago that its no longer considered. They go to the doctor, get a pill, and never get counseling or any real help. Your image of someone taking pain pills for an infected cut is very apt - the wound is still there, still festering, still untreated - but the pain is numbed so nothing gets any better, in fact it will likely continue to worsen.

Taking a pill is easy; examining one's life and making changes is hard. For a doctor, its easy to hand out the pills, and they (and we) have been conditioned to think that pills can cure anything.

The truth is, they can't. But our society is not one that likes to face hard truths, and we are starting to see the results of that, as more and more people become disaffected and, well, lost. I don't know how else to describe it. I think the next generation - the children of my son's generation - will show it even more clearly. Only time will tell.

Anyway, I digress (again).

Every human being alive is subject to depression sooner or later. There's no shame in it. There's no shame either in needing the help of an appropriate anti-depressant, either - on a temporary basis, to help break out of that downward spiral.

The shame is that our society, which publically and loudly proclaims its contempt for those who "use drugs" (meaning "illegal" drugs), is, in reality, culturing and promoting the use of drugs in its citizens. It's hypocrisy of the worst sort.

The truth is it doesn't matter whether or not you have a prescription. Drug addiction is still drug addiction, and its rampant in our society. And the effects on the addict are not mitigated in the slightest by having a prescription for it.

I've heard a lot of people blame all of societies problems on the gradual erosion of the power of organized religion over the individual; well, I have a different view on whether or not that's a desirable thing, but I can certainly agree that our society is not only spiritually impoverished, its flippin' BANKRUPT.

We have lost our way. We have lost our sense of family, of community, of connection, and ultimately of self. In the absence of spiritual anchoring we have become a nation of zombies and drones. And human beings AREN'T zombies or drones by nature. When a human being, ANY human being, is forced into being something they are not and cannot be, depression and anger are the natural result.

Being different is not an illness. But being different, not going with the flow, can CAUSE illness, because of the way those around us treat us because of it. As long as our society as a whole cannot accept or even tolerate the "differentness" of its individuals, (let alone CELEBRATE it, that would be too much to hope for!) we will continue to see high rates of depression, things like road rage and school shootings, and physical ailments that just can't seem to be tracked down to any particular cause.

Some of them are real physical ailments that go undiagnosed like my hypothyroidism, some are undoubtedly caused by overexposure to chemical pollutants, but some are also undoubtedly psychosomatic in nature.

It's a crap shoot - go to the doctor, and have a pill thrown at you - if its a mood altering drug, chances are you've been misdiagnosed and mistreated, one way or another. That's why it is SO important for the patient to be responsible for self-evaluating, questioning, and examining your own life. The doctor CAN'T do that for you, even if he or she were inclined to do so, which we all know the vast majority of them are not.

I recognize the fact that many people in a depressive state aren't capable of doing that first shot out of the barrel. But you know what, if the medication is EFFECTIVE, then they should be able to do that shortly. But they don't, can't, won't. So obviously that pill hasn't solved a damn thing, and the patient is only being treated, not healed, not cured.

Is that job security for SOMEBODY or what?

There is very little room in society today for the individual. People who when I was growing up were considered eccentric or harmless cranks, often even respected for some ability or characteristic, would today be locked up in a mental ward, medicated into normalcy, or warehoused in an old folks home.

Those people, some of whom I grew up knowing and loving, were perfectly happy to be the way they were. They weren't depressed. They weren't unhappy. They were productive by their own lights, cared for themselves adequately (whether other people thought they bathed often enough or not, LOL!) and added something to my world that I now sorely miss.

Stop and think now, before some of you out there accuse me of wishing mentally ill people to stay that way - how many of us have relatives or friends who would be more than happy to have us medicated back to "normality" to get us off our homesteads and back into "the REAL world"? All for our own good of course ...

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 28, 2001.

Paul, the studies you refer to do indeed show changes in the brain in chronic depression. It is well known and widely discussed that in fact a chronic depressive state is self-reinforcing. The triggering mechanism for chronic depression is most often an acute depressive state that, guess what, starts those changes in the brain you are talking about so blithely, and then it becomes a self-reinforcing, downward spiral. You get depressed, your state of mind causes a change in your chemical balance. The chemical balance reinforces the depression. The depression - your state of mind - again causes changes in your chemical balance, which again reinforces the depression, etc etc etc.

That is as I have said well known and widely published in the literature.

It does NOT follow that every case of chronic depression should therefore be treated by a permanent regimen of powerful mood altering drugs.

Most depressions, even chronic depression, are triggered by a discrete event. Our reaction to that discrete event begins a depressive state. But saying that a depressive state should therefore be treated forever by drugs is like saying that once you've cut yourself and gotten an infection you'd better stay on that antibiotic for the rest of your life. It has pretty much the same effect, too - you develop a resistance to the drug and the next time you might need it it won't be effective or as effective.

Chronic depression is real. It's pernicious. And it can be very very dangerous. It should not go untreated. Strike that, it should not go UNHEALED. Unfortunately, drugging the victim up to his or her gills for the rest of the life isn't healing, its only TREATING the symptoms. It's putting one leg on the horse that ought to carry you away from there. How far do you think you will get on a one-legged horse?

Chronic depression can also be caused by chronic negative conditions in the environment. A terrible work environment. A lousy home environment, maybe the spouse is abusive, or maybe someone in the family is chronically ill. Overwork can cause it, say having to work two jobs to make ends meet and then always being worried what the kids are up to while you're away. Doing something you hate but doing it anyway because its what everybody else seems to think you should be doing. Feelings of guilt, whether repressed or not. Childhood abuse that hasn't been dealt with, or sometimes even acknowledged. There are all KINDS of things in the environment that can cause chronic depression.

The third major cause of chronic depression is behavioural. When someone behaves like a jackass pretty much all the time they naturally won't have any friends. They'll feel isolated, because they ARE isolated. Naturally this will lead to a chronic depression. I've known people like this; people who don't have friends, they take hostages. They behave abusively to their friends and then get angry when their friends "desert" them. Or they have some neurotic character traits that make them shy so they have difficulty making and keeping friends. These are learned behaviours that need to be unlearned. Taking a pill isn't going to make them change their behaviour.

Yet when a patient shows up with chronic depression, little or nothing is done to deal with the root causes. A pill won't keep your kids safe while you are at work; it'll just make you care about the consequences less. A pill won't make your husband stop treating you like dirt; it'll just shut off the pain when he does. A pill won't make you love your job; it'll just block the anger you feel every morning when you walk in that door.

Its not that there's not a chemical imbalance; there is. The question is, is that chemical imbalance caused by some physical defect in the brain, as is the case with bi-polar disorder (manic depression) or is it environmental in nature?

"Modern evidence" most surely does show that chemical balance in the brain is affected by mood and behaviour. Modern theory acknowledges that both acute and chronic depression most often have an environmental causative. It's modern TREATMENT that falls down on the job.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 28, 2001.

Sojourner, I tend to agree with both you and Paul. I do know this. I spoke one sentence to my doc about being depressed, and he butted in to suggest PROZAC. He was obviously in a hurry, and had no time to talk about what was causing my depression. And this is the doc I have trusted for years, who used to have time for talk. Guess what? His practice has recently been bought by the local medical conglomerate.

I found the way to manage my own depression. A two pronged approach worked for me. Spiritual first of all, in living a lifestyle of meditation with God, and second, nutrition. I found that sunbathing in spring helped a lot. Cutting out yeast products and most grains helped tremendously.

It's like I heard a holiness preacher say recently: "The time has come that we are going to HAVE to believe in faith healing, as the doctors have left their calling."

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 28, 2001.

Before you try treating your condition with herbs or drugs, first you should head to your GP for a full physical, a thyroid test, and a blood sugar test. Once in a while you can get those community blood work ups for $25 or so, but don't skip the full physical, since there are other factors that can contribute to depression as well. An under active thyroid can definitely cause mood problems, most notably, mood swings that go from sadness to anger and irritability to happiness. When my husband had to have his thyroid removed due to thyroid cancer a few years ago, his endocrinologist explained that the mood swings can be so severe, many people with hypothyroidism ended up locked in insane asylums before we knew about the effects of thyroid disease. After he recovered, he said that his experience really opened his eyes to the way body chemical imbalances can significantly affect the way you think and feel. It's funny that most of us have no trouble at all when it comes to understanding that hormones, blood sugar levels and hypothyroidism can all lead to mood and personality changes, but when people start talking about things like norepinephrine, serotonin, reuptake and neurotransmitters people become suddenly skeptical. It's difficult to relate to the idea that thoughts and emotions are part of a physical process because nobody thinks of themselves as a physical element or a brain. If you're a woman, try keeping a mood calendar to see if your moodiness follows a pattern that coincides with your menstrual cycle. If you have depression in conjunction with excessive facial hair, a deep husky voice, and/or difficulty losing weight, you could have ovarian cysts and should schedule an appointment with your GYN. Menopause and pre-menopause can contribute to moodiness as well. Keep good personal habits, especially concerning sleep. Try to get eight hours of sleep each night. If you don't already go to bed and wake up at the same time every day, start doing it! You'll notice a remarkable improvement in your mood and concentration. This is very important for people who suffer from insomnia because it sets your body clock back to functioning properly. Establish a nightly routine before you go to bed at night that allows you to wind down and prepare your body for restful sleep. No matter how badly you feel, never allow yourself to sleep during the day. This will only increase your depression and set in motion a disturbed sleep cycle that will be very difficult to correct. Good nutrition and exercise are essential to your well being. I know the last thing anyone feels like doing when they're down is exercising, but it is the ultimate energy and mood booster. Even if you already get lots of exercise with your daily homestead chores, set aside a minimum of 20-30 minutes three times a week to participate in a physical activity that you enjoy. Take a long walk in the woods, go swimming, be a little selfish and make it your time to be alone or to share with friends. Take a B complex vitamin every day. Increase the amount of omega-3 fatty acids in your diet by eating fish such as salmon, halibut, mackerel, sardines, lake trout, and albacore tuna 2-3 times a week. If you can deal with it, fish oil is another good way to add omega-3 to your diet. Some people find that they feel better if they follow paleolithic or low carb diets. That's usually a good indication that you have digestion difficulties or food allergies. For women, calcium supplements are proven to reduce moodiness attributed to hormone fluctuations. A few of the more common herbal supplements to consider are Kava-Kava, Ginseng, Ginkgo , St. Johns Wort, Chamomile and amino acids such as SAMe and 5-HTP. If you tend to have anxiety, eliminate caffeine from your diet and avoid any herbal remedies that contain Kola Nuts, Ma-huang or Ephreda. A word of caution: If anyone in your biological family has ever experienced or has been diagnosed with a delusional disorder, psychosis, bipolar disorder (manic depression), schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, has committed an unexplained act of violence or has committed suicide, you should explain your family history with your doctor before taking any type of mood altering herbs or medication. Learn to identify the stresses in your life. If you can't eliminate them, try to work around them. Remember that you don't have to be perfect. It's ok if a few weeds sprout in your garden or to have a dirt glass in your sink. If you find yourself shouldered with too much responsibility, learn to firmly delegate it more evenly among family members. Don't sweat the small stuff.  Appreciate the lessons you learn from making mistakes instead of lambasting yourself for making them. Take out a little bit of time every day just for you and refuse to feel guilty about it. Many different religious groups offer nondenominational counseling for individuals, families and spouses for a small donation. Many of these organizations even offer modern therapies such as cognitive behavioral therapy and REM therapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy has incredible success rates for treating both depression and anxiety disorders. It helps you to replace negative thinking patterns and irrational ideas with more rationaland positive thoughts. It is possible to correct brain chemical imbalances by simply "retraining" poor thought processes. There are several good books on cognitive behavioral therapy, which I listed at the end of this message. All but some of the more rural areas offer County Mental Health services. Due to increasingly poor funding, many of these places are booked solid for months and you may have to be persistent to get an appointment there. Don't feel embarrassed about seeking help! Anyone who attempts to discourage you from seeking medical attention doesn't have your best interests at heart! Nearly 84 people die from depression each day in this nation alone - more than those who are killed in homicides. Despite common belief, the people who die from suicides are not the ones who continually threaten or attempt suicide but never succeed. Often, they are the people who think they will never resort to suicide, and the people who neglect to get help because they feel their problems aren't serious enough, those who think they can take care of it themselves, or those who just keep hoping it will go away on it's own. Left untreated, depression can alter thought processes and reasoning abilities. People who attempt suicide are usually convinced that the best cure for the way they feel is death - to them, the idea can be just as sensible and rational as taking antibiotics to cure pneumonia. The longer you wait before seeking help, the longer it will take you to recover. Despite a few bad reactions and media induced public hysteria, anti-depressants are generally safe. There is no big conspiracy theory to push anti-depressants. No one is forcing you to go to the doctor to ask for Prozac! Yes, there are some kooky doctors out there, but there are kooks anywhere you go, no profession is immune to it. There have been oft published instances where people have had bad reactions to certain anti-depressants, most notably Prozac. In many cases, this was because of an underlying condition such as bipolar disorder or schizoaffective  disorder. In even rarer occurrences, Prozac has made depression and anxiety worse. Keep in mind that no matter how much it's been talked about - these bad reactions only make up a small (1-2%) percentage of people. Every person has a unique body chemistry and one drug is not always good for everyone. I tried Prozac back in 1998, and I reacted very badly to it. But, I've also had a bad reaction to ethromycin, and it didn't lead me to believe that all antibiotics were evil! (Cognitive therapy 101, irrational ideas - when you pick out a single negative event or issue and dwell on it exclusively, so that your vision of reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors the entire beaker of water) If you do choose to try anti-depressants, go to a psychiatrist who specializes in that type of medication, rather than going to your GP who may not be up to date with the latest treatments. There are many new drugs out there without the side effects that were associated with older drugs like Prozac. Secondly, insist that your doctor medicates responsibly. If at all possible, avoid addictive medications such as methylphenidate and dextroamphetamine (Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine, Cylert), and benzodiazepines (Valium, Xanax, Restoril, Rohypnol, Dalmane, Ativan). I know there are books and propaganda out there that give the impression that doctors everywhere are treating depression by handing you a prescription and sending you home, but they are the exception rather than the norm. A responsible treatment program for people taking anti-depressants also includes therapy, exercise, and lifestyle management. I've belonged to support groups with literally hundreds of people and not one has ever spoken of medication prescribed to them as a cure-all, because it isn't. The main purpose of an anti-depressant is to bring you back to a functioning level so that you have the concentration and physical energy needed to benefit from other types of therapy. People who are clinically depressed often experience mental fogginess, poor concentration, an inability to focus and irrational thought patterns. This is related to the chemical imbalances that are present in people with depression. When your mental perception is altered through depression, attempts to heal yourself with therapy are futile. In order to understand and cope with your condition, you must first have the capacity to do so. If you are concerned about going to the doctor because you're afraid they might push medication on you, just remember that you are the one in charge. You are paying him to perform a service for you. You wouldn't tolerate poor service from an auto mechanic, nor should you from a doctor. No one can force you to take medication against your will. If your doctor recommends an anti-depressant, insist that he explain how it's supposed to work, how long you can expect to take it, whether there are side effects, and that he refer you to a therapist. Remember that education always conquers fear. Learn everything you can - read about what has helped people and what hasn't, study the pros and cons, learn about the chemistry behind herbs and medications, stay informed of new treatments. There are all types of special interest groups out there. Some would like you to believe that antidepressants are evil, others want you to believe that the key to happiness is through mood altering drugs, a few groups don't believe depression exists at all. Sadly, there are also those who target people with depression and mental illnesses - certain religious groups and cults, political fringe groups, salespeople who peddle worthless self help books, tapes, and herbal "cures" to the desperate, and yes - sometimes even physicians and therapists. Stay away from people who attempt to make you feel guilty, that you are of poor character, that your life is in shambles and they will help you out of your despair by showing you better ways to live, or who try to lead you to believe that the people around you are mistreating you and taking advantage of you. Find a therapist who wants to empower you. Find a therapist who gives you the tools to take charge of your own life. Avoid like the plague anyone who seems to be steering you towards certain ideas or lifestyles, expresses their personal preferences concerning moral issues or character in a manner of subtly trying to influence you to please them or follow their lead, offers religious guidance that they know is contrary to your beliefs or suggests that the people in your life are a bad influence upon you. This is about YOU! It isn't about your therapist or your family members or the people you hang out with. Anyone who is giving you advice should be teaching you how to take control of your own life, make your own judgments, act on your own to create your own individual sense of self-esteem - not telling you what's wrong with your life. If something is wrong in your life, it's a personal matter and it is up to you to figure it out yourself. A person who tries to tell you what's wrong with your life is subtly reinforcing the idea that you are worthless and unable to make sound decisions. Someone who is trying to influence you with their personal opinion while you are in a vulnerable state is not thinking about you, but themselves.

Online resources -

Depression library at HealingWell.com

Depression at About.com

U.S.A. suicide: 1997 official final data

Ask NOAH About: Mental Health

Books -

The Feeling Good Handbook

Mind Over Mood

A Guide to Rational Living

-- Lee (bantlette@yahoo.com), June 28, 2001.

Four comments and I'm done.

1) Drugging people out of their mind is not treating them. Using medicines to correct a chemical imbalance is. Don't confuse one with the other. Prozac and some other common drugs for depression seem to do the first, SJW and in some cases lithium and other medicines do the second. Saying somebody shouldn't take medicines to correct such an imbalance is like saying people shouldn't take vitamin C for colds. There are many medical conditions that are caused when a particular person requires more of some chemical or substance than average. Saying people should never treat depression with medication is like saying diabetics should not need insulin or that dwarfs should get used to being short, rather than take growth hormone. The fact that this particular imbalance has similar symptoms to an emotional state does not mean that it is merely something that one can get over by willpower or whatever.

2) I can best explain this by example. Three people lose a loved-one. Person A is back to living a fairly normal life in a week, maybe sad but functional and looking to mend. Person B thinks it's the end of the word and may think life isn't worth living for a few days. A week or so after the funeral Person B is catching up with person A in healing. Person C goes into a deep funk and stays there for years. Same situation, different results. That would imply that the true differences preexisted. The death of the loved-one is just a trigger, the brain was already primed and caulked. We all have slightly different brain chemistry. For some people, in order for the brain to function normally, it's chemistry has to br brought closer to normal.

3) It has been shown that the tendency to be like person C above is hereditary. If it's hereditary, it's chemical in nature, not simply environmental. The environment simply supplies the trigger.

4) It is obvious that depression can be a downward spiral. Many times even if the trigger that started the trend is known, it is no longer significant. If the depression is caused by an imbalance, treating the imbalance is the easiest, safest and possibly the only way to end the cycle. Saying somebody should use medication to treat depression does not mean that they should spend the rest of their lives doped out of their minds and Sojourner implied.

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), June 28, 2001.

(repost - this should be easier to read) Before you try treating your condition with herbs or drugs, first you should head to your GP for a full physical, a thyroid test, and a blood sugar test. Once in a while you can get those community blood work ups for $25 or so, but don't skip the full physical, since there are other factors that can contribute to depression as well.

An under active thyroid can definitely cause mood problems, most notably mood swings that go from sadness to anger and irritability to happiness. When my husband had to have his thyroid removed due to thyroid cancer a few years ago, his endocrinologist explained that the mood swings can be so severe, many people with hypothyroidism ended up locked in insane asylums before we knew about the effects of thyroid disease. After he recovered, he said that his experience really opened his eyes to the way body chemical imbalances can significantly affect the way you think and feel. It's funny that most of us have no trouble at all when it comes to understanding that hormones, blood sugar levels and hypothyroidism can all lead to mood and personality changes, but when people start talking about things like norepinephrine, serotonin, reuptake and neurotransmitters people become suddenly skeptical. It's difficult to relate to the idea that thoughts and emotions are part of a physical process because nobody thinks of themselves as a physical element or a brain.

If you're a woman, try keeping a mood calendar to see if your moodiness follows a pattern that coincides with your menstrual cycle. If you have depression in conjunction with excessive facial hair, a deep husky voice, and/or difficulty losing weight, you could have ovarian cysts and should schedule an appointment with your GYN. Menopause and pre-menopause can contribute to moodiness as well.

Keep good personal habits, especially concerning sleep. Try to get eight hours of sleep each night. If you don't already go to bed and wake up at the same time every day, start doing it! You'll notice a remarkable improvement in your mood and concentration. This is very important for people who suffer from insomnia because it sets your body clock back to functioning properly. Establish a nightly routine before you go to bed at night that allows you to wind down and prepare your body for restful sleep. No matter how badly you feel, never allow yourself to sleep during the day. This will only increase your depression and set in motion a disturbed sleep cycle that will be very difficult to correct.

Good nutrition and exercise are essential to your well being. I know the last thing anyone feels like doing when they're down is exercising, but it is the ultimate energy and mood booster. Even if you already get lots of exercise with your daily homestead chores, set aside a minimum of 20-30 minutes three times a week to participate in a physical activity that you enjoy. Take a long walk in the woods, go swimming, be a little selfish and make it your time to be alone or to share with friends.

Take a B complex vitamin every day. Increase the amount of omega-3 fatty acids in your diet by eating fish such as salmon, halibut, mackerel, sardines, lake trout, and albacore tuna 2-3 times a week. If you can deal with it, fish oil is another good way to add omega-3 to your diet. Some people find that they feel better if they follow paleolithic or low carb diets. For women, calcium supplements are proven to reduce moodiness attributed to hormone fluctuations.  A few of the more common herbal supplements to consider are Kava-Kava, Ginseng, Ginkgo , St. Johns Wort, Chamomile and amino acids such as SAMe and 5-HTP. If you tend to have anxiety, eliminate caffeine from your diet and avoid any herbal remedies that contain Kola Nuts, Ma-huang or Ephreda.

A word of caution: If anyone in your biological family has ever experienced or has been diagnosed with a delusional disorder, psychosis, bipolar disorder (manic depression), schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, has committed an unexplained act of violence or has committed suicide, you should explain your family history with your doctor before taking any type of mood altering herbs or medication.

Learn to identify the stresses in your life. If you can't eliminate them, try to work around them. Remember that you don't have to be perfect. It's ok if a few weeds sprout in your garden or to have a dirty glass in your sink. If you find yourself shouldered with too much responsibility, learn to firmly delegate it more evenly among family members. Don't sweat the small stuff. Appreciate the lessons you learn from making mistakes instead of lambasting yourself for making them. Take out a little bit of time every day just for you and refuse to feel guilty about it.

Many different religious groups offer nondenominational counseling for individuals, families and spouses for a small donation. Many of these organizations even offer modern therapies such as cognitive behavioral therapy and REM therapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy has incredible success rates for treating both depression and anxiety disorders. It helps you to replace negative thinking patterns and irrational ideas with more rational and positive thoughts. It is possible to correct brain chemical imbalances by simply "retraining" poor thought processes. There are several good books on cognitive behavioral therapy, which I listed at the end of this message. All but some of the more rural areas offer County Mental Health services. Due to increasingly poor funding, many of these places are booked solid for months and you may have to be persistent to get an appointment there.

Don't feel embarrassed about seeking help! Anyone who attempts to discourage you from seeking medical attention doesn't have your best interests at heart! Nearly 84 people die from depression each day in this nation alone - more than those who are killed in homicides. Despite common belief, the people who die from suicides are not the ones who continually threaten or attempt suicide but never succeed. Often, they are the people who think they will never resort to suicide, and the people who neglect to get help because they feel their problems aren't serious enough, those who think they can take care of it themselves, or those who just keep hoping it will go away on it's own. Left untreated, depression can alter thought processes and reasoning abilities. People who attempt suicide are usually convinced that the best cure for the way they feel is death - to them, the idea can be just as sensible and rational as taking antibiotics to cure pneumonia. The longer you wait before seeking help, the longer it will take you to recover.

Despite a few bad reactions and media induced public hysteria, anti-depressants are generally safe. There is no big conspiracy theory to push anti-depressants. No one is forcing you to go to the doctor to ask for anti-depressants! Yes, there are some kooky doctors out there, but there are kooks anywhere you go, no profession is immune to it. There have been oft published instances where people have had bad reactions to certain anti-depressants, most notably Prozac. In many cases, this was because of an underlying condition such as bipolar disorder or schizoaffective disorder. In even rarer occurrences, Prozac has made depression and anxiety worse. Keep in mind that no matter how much it's been talked about - these bad reactions only make up a small (1-2%) percentage of people. Every person has a unique body chemistry and one drug is not always good for everyone. In 1997, I tried St. Johns Wort only to discover not only did it give me a rash, but also made me unbearably nausous. I tried Prozac back in 1998, and I reacted very badly to it. But, I've also had a bad reaction to ethromycin, and it didn't lead me to believe that all antibiotics were evil!

(Cognitive therapy 101, irrational ideas - when you pick out a single negative event or issue and dwell on it exclusively, so that your vision of reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors the entire beaker of water)

If you do choose to try anti-depressants, go to a psychiatrist who specializes in that type of medication, rather than going to your GP who may not be up to date with the latest treatments. There are many new drugs out there without the side effects that were associated with older drugs like Prozac. Secondly, insist that your doctor medicates responsibly. If at all possible, avoid addictive medications such as methylphenidate and dextroamphetamine (Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine, Cylert), and benzodiazepines (Valium, Xanax, Restoril, Rohypnol, Dalmane, Ativan). I know there are books and propaganda out there that give the impression that doctors everywhere are treating depression by handing you a prescription and sending you home, but they are the exception rather than the norm. A responsible treatment program for people taking anti-depressants also includes therapy, exercise, and lifestyle management. I've belonged to support groups with literally hundreds of people and not one has ever spoken of medication prescribed to them as a cure-all, because it isn't. The main purpose of an anti-depressant is to bring you back to a functioning level so that you have the concentration and physical energy needed to benefit from other types of therapy. People who are clinically depressed often experience mental fogginess, poor concentration, an inability to focus and irrational thought patterns. This is related to the chemical imbalances that are present in people with depression. When your mental perception is altered through depression, attempts to heal yourself with therapy are futile. In order to understand and cope with your condition, you must first have the capacity to do so.

If you are concerned about going to the doctor because you're afraid they might push medication on you, just remember that you are the one in charge. You are paying him to perform a service for you. You wouldn't tolerate poor service from an auto mechanic, nor should you from a doctor. No one can force you to take medication against your will. If your doctor recommends an anti-depressant, insist that he explain how it's supposed to work, how long you can expect to take it, whether there are side effects, and that he refer you to a therapist.

Remember that education always conquers fear. Learn everything you can - read about what has helped people and what hasn't, study the pros and cons, learn about the chemistry behind herbs and medications, stay informed of new treatments. There are all types of special interest groups out there. Some would like you to believe that antidepressants are evil, others want you to believe that the key to happiness is through mood altering drugs, a few groups don't believe depression exists at all. Sadly, there are also those who target people with depression and mental illnesses - certain religious groups and cults, political fringe groups, salespeople who peddle worthless self help books, tapes, and herbal "cures" to the desperate, and yes - sometimes even physicians and therapists. Stay away from people who attempt to make you feel guilty, that you are of poor character, that your life is in shambles and they will help you out of your despair by showing you better ways to live, or who try to lead you to believe that the people around you are mistreating you and taking advantage of you. Find a therapist who wants to empower you. Find a therapist who gives you the tools to take charge of your own life.

Avoid like the plague anyone who seems to be steering you towards certain ideas or lifestyles, expresses their personal preferences concerning moral issues or character in a manner of subtly trying to influence you to please them or follow their lead, offers religious guidance that they know is contrary to your beliefs or suggests that the people in your life are a bad influence upon you. This is about YOU! It isn't about your therapist or your family members or the people you hang out with. Anyone who is giving you advice should be teaching you how to take control of your own life, make your own judgments, act on your own to create your own individual sense of self-esteem - not telling you what's wrong with your life. If something is wrong in your life, it's a personal matter and it is up to you to figure it out yourself. A person who tries to tell you what's wrong with your life is subtly reinforcing the idea that you are worthless and unable to make sound decisions. Someone who is trying to influence you with their personal opinion while you are in a vulnerable state is not thinking about you, but themselves.

Online resources -

Depression library at HealingWell.com

Depression at About.com

U.S.A. suicide: 1997 official final data

Ask NOAH About: Mental Health

Books -

The Feeling Good Handbook

Mind Over Mood

A Guide to Rational Living

-- Lee (bantlette@yahoo.com), June 28, 2001.